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Today's Topics:
1. sa chchAdakaH (Jay Vaidya)
2. kaH + Aste -> ka Aste (V Srini)
3. Translation (Dr. J. K. Mohan Rao)
4. Re: sanskrit Digest, Vol 23, Issue 7 (DEEPAK)
5. Re: Translation (Ambujam Raman)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:17:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] sa chchAdakaH
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
uktaM Manfred-mahodayena:
> Do you believe there is an example in literature
> showing sa cchAdakaH?
No. This is the first time I ever heard or read the
words 'saH' and 'chhAdakaH' in that order. Also Toke
writes that it is not clear whether the text concerned
is "sa chAdakaH" or "saMchAdakaH" (whatever those
things may mean in the context of the text). So I will
try to answer your broader question --
> I thought that after changing from saH to sa
> there is no more change.
I will try to convince, with examples, that there can
be change after the saH -> sa transformation.
DIGRESSION
Here is a short digression regarding your point
> it makes no sense to start the Sandhi process anew.
The most convenient set of rules for sa.nskR^ita
(pANini's ashhTAdhyAyI) are not thought of as many
parallel chains but rather as a network of
criss-crossing paths. There are approximately 4000
rules. The first 3700 (approx) rules all talk to each
other and can be applied one after another (but NOT
helter-skelter) as they come to be applicable due to
transformation -- I do not know whether you can call
that "starting the process anew".
The last 283 rules are the "there is no looking back"
rules. As you go through the rules, there is an
inexorable "no looking back" even within the final
283, until the last rule: "convert every open-throated
short 'a' sound to a close-throated short 'a' sound".
>From this rule there is nowhere to go grammatically.
You then write or speak this "final" version.
Some sandhi rules are in the first 3700 and can apply
one after another. Some sandhi rules are in the last
283, and can only be applied with the "there is no
looking back" procedure.
END DIGRESSION
The reason it is so difficult to answer you without
being a little pedantic is that some of the saH -> sa
rules are in the first ~3700, and allow for further
modifications.
these are:
saH + consonant -> sa consonant (under certain
circumstances)
Another lesser known rule in this 3700 section:
saH + vowel -> sa vowel (if this adjusts syllables in
verse)
The other saH->sa rule (which is causing you, rightly,
to feel that there is "no sandhi after sandhi") is a
chain that ends in the last 287. There are only 166
rules after this one, most of which are not applicable
most of the time. So even with the "look forward,
don't look back" policy, this ends up being the last
rule applied. (Not really. sa [open-throated] -> sa
[close-throated] is THE final transformation!)
saH + vowel (other than 'a') -> sa + vowel (no verse
requirement).
Examples of first section rules (unless stated, all
are from the kAshikA, book approximately 1000 years
old):
saH + bhuN^kte -> sa bhuN^kte (he eats)
{Even though this rule talks to the rest of all other
rules, there is nothing more to do! Except sa
[open-throated] -> sa [close-throated], which is
pronounced, but not written.}
(verse example)
saH + eshhaH -> sa eshhaH
{This rule also talks to all of the other rules.
Indeed, there is now another rule that may apply,
namely 'a' + 'e' -> ai}
sa + eshhaH -> saishhaH
The verse quoted in the kAshikA is:
"saishha dAsharathI rAjA saishha rAjA yudhishhThiraH |
saishha karNo mahAtyAgI saishha bhImo mahAbalaH ||"
"This is he, the king dAsharathI; this is he, the king
yudhishhThira. This is he, the great donor karNa; this
is he, the very powerful Bhima."
What would happen if we used the rule from the last
287?
The transformation would be "unseen" by all all prior
rules -- but not any of the following 166 (though
mostly irrelevant) rules!
example from the kAshikA is
kaH + Aste -> ka Aste (the a+A -> A rule, a prior
rule, cannot be triggered) OPTIONALLY
kaH + Aste -> kaYAste (who sits?)
--'Y' stands for the laghu-prayatna-tara 'y' in which
a very weak palate-contact is maintained.
My example, by analogy
saH Aste -> sa Aste/ saYAste (he sits)
Now, just to make the point, what if one of the
following 166 rules actually applies? Of course it has
its effect! example from the kAshikA (straight up, no
analogy)
Rule: if followed by the particle 'u' the 'Y' in the
above is obligatorily deleted.
saY u ekAgniH -> sa u ekAgniH (oh! he is the one agni)
(Digression: By the way this saH+u sandhi takes place
after the u+ekAgniH -> u ekAgniH [unchanged] sandhi
with no problem, either. End digression.)
I hope I have convinced you with examples that "after
changing from saH to sa there can be more change if
required."
At cursory examination, I could find no more rules in
the final 166 that would apply to the saH+vowel
(second rule, from the special 287).
There were many that could be applied after the first
saH+consonant (from the first 3700).) Here are a
couple of examples:
(1) optional consonant duplication after 'h'
saH + hmalayati -> sa hmalayati (OPT)-> sa
h-m-malayati
(2) optional duplication of the first consonant of a
ligature
saH dhmAtavAn -> sa dhmAtavAn (OPT)-> sa d-dhmAtavAn
(Note! chh is not a ligature sa chchhAdakaH
"duplication" - actually a 't' addition - comes from a
different rule!)
Also
saH + sthitaH -> sa sthitaH (OPT)-> sa s-t-thithaH
dhana.njayaH
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:46:39 -0800 (PST)
From: V Srini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] kaH + Aste -> ka Aste
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dhananjay Garu,
Your explanation on this subject is very useful and
easy to follow! Thanks!
Some questions:
(1) You wrote:
kaH + Aste -> ka Aste (the a+A -> A rule, a prior
rule, cannot be triggered) OPTIONALLY
kaH + Aste -> kaYAste (who sits?)
--'Y' stands for the laghu-prayatna-tara 'y' in which
a very weak palate-contact is maintained.
Question: a+A -> A rule, why can it not be triggered?
Is it because we already applied a "point of no
return" type of sandhi here? Or any other reason? I
thought we have the option of "kAsthe", like "saishha"
had.
Similarly, saH Aste -> . . .-> . . . = sAste ?
(2) 'Y' stands for the laghu-prayatna-tara 'y: Is this
'Y' an obsolete kind of alphabet? Does it belong to
some specific style of Sanskrit such as Vedic or Pali
or something?
(3) Having found that the sandhi's can be applied
recursively like this, where it it customary to stop
the process, say, at level 2, level 3 , etc.? We seem
to have several chains of recursive aplications,
within each chain (starting from some node till the
"most-derived" node) several valid potential final
forms.
(4) Where can I buy/copy/download panini's works, etc.
and "kAshikA" that you referred to in your message?
Srinivas
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 20:15:41 -0500
From: "Dr. J. K. Mohan Rao" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Translation
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
May I request the knowledgeable to correct my
translation of the following ma.ndAkrA.nta poem?
Thanks and regards! - J K Mohana Rao
snigdhashshAmAM gurubhisupalaiH parvataM mAlyava.ntam.h
pashyesuttaMbhitamiva purashkeshapAshaM pR^ithivyAH
tatrAdyApi pratijharajalaiH jarjarAprasthabhAgAH
sItAbharturpR^ithutarashucassUcayaMtyashrupAtAn.h
Mount Malyavanta is a smooth, dark big rock
Looks as if it is supporting the matted hair
at the back of the Earth
The stream of water falling on to the decayed flat land
Looked as if it were the tears from the great grief of Rama
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:35:19 +0530 (IST)
From: DEEPAK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Re: sanskrit Digest, Vol 23, Issue 7
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> Send sanskrit mailing list submissions to
> [email protected]
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/sanskrit
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of sanskrit digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: sa chchhAdakaH (Manfred Lotz)
> 2. Re: Question (Manfred Lotz)
> 3. Re: Question (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:16:08 +0100
> From: Manfred Lotz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] sa chchhAdakaH
> To: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:36:27 -0800 (PST)
> Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Jay,
>
>
>> Dear Manfred,
>> The idea that the application of one rule precludes
>> the application of other rules is sometimes, but not
>> generally true. Usually, one uses a chain of rules one
>> after the other to get to the correct form. To be
>> fair, your idea is "sometimes" true. There is an
>> "escape-sequence" of rules that does not allow
>> re-evaluation of the sandhi (or any grammatical issue)
>> in terms of previous rules. A jargon-laden explanation
>> of "sometimes" is given below. Read it if you must.
>>
>
> My wording was bad. I meant that usually after application of Sandhi
> which in itself could contain more than one rule it makes no sense to
> start the Sandhi process anew. Otherwise one would get ambiguous
> results. But even this statement might be very inprecise. :-)
>
>
>
>> dhana.njayaH
>>
>> avaxIt tokeH :
>>
>> > saH + chAdakaH
>> > ... the visarga in the
>> > word saH will drop,
>> > giving us, at first
>> >
>> > sa chAdakaH
>> > ... will the 'chA' in the above be
>> > doubled to 'cchA'?
>>
>>
>
> I thought that after changing from saH to sa there is no more change. Do
> you believe there is an example in literature showing sa cchAdakaH?
>
>
>
>
> --
> Manfred
> --
> Manfred
>
>
> "When I was a boy I was told
> that anybody could become President.
> Now I'm beginning to believe it."
> - Clarence Darrow
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:16:45 +0100
> From: Manfred Lotz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Question
> To: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:00:18 -0500
> Toke Lindegaard Knudsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Dear members of the Sanskrit list,
>>
>> I have a question regarding the combination
>>
>> saH + chAdakaH
>>
>> which shows up in a line in a manuscript that I am working with.
>>
>>
>
> Hi Toke,
> In which manuscript did you find saH + chAdakaH?
>
>
>
>
> --
> Manfred
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 13:02:24 -0500
> From: Toke Lindegaard Knudsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Question
> To: Manfred Lotz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: [email protected]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Dear Manfred,
>
>>In which manuscript did you find saH + chAdakaH?
>
> In the Siddhantasundara of Jnanaraja (composed 1503 CE), which I am
> working on a critical edition of. The phrase saH + chAdakaH occurs in the
> section on lunar eclipses. Some manuscripts, however, has the variant
> reading saMchAdakaH.
>
> With all best wishes,
> Toke
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> End of sanskrit Digest, Vol 23, Issue 7
> ***************************************
>
the combination that u r talking about is
saH+chAdakaH after sandhi it should become sashchAdakaH,
this is know as either a visarga sandhi or a Shchuthva sandhi.
shubhamasthu
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:26:22 -0500
From: "Ambujam Raman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Translation
To: "Dr. J. K. Mohan Rao" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
snigdhashshAmAM gurubhisupalaiH parvataM mAlyava.ntam.h
pashyesuttaMbhitamiva purashkeshapAshaM pR^ithivyAH
tatrAdyApi pratijharajalaiH jarjarAprasthabhAgAH
sItAbharturpR^ithutarashucassUcayaMtyashrupAtAn.h
snigdhaH = clear
shAmAM = ??? = shyAmAm = dusky
gurubhiH = big
upalaiH = (with) rocks
parvataM = mountain
mAlyava.ntam.h = Malayavanta
pashye= I see ( ??d^Rish is parasmaipada, is this saMpashye?)
suttaMbhitam= ?staMbhitam = anchored
iva=like
purashkeshapAshaM= fore-locks of hair
pR^ithivyAH = earths
tatra=there
adya api = even now
pratijharajalaiH = by the multitude of cascades
jarjarAprasthabhAgAH = sharing a splashing sound
sItAbhartuH = Sita's husband = Rama
pR^ithutara = very opulent
shucaH= grieving
sUcayaMti= indicates
ashrupAtAn.h = flow of tears
Meaning just as you have stated.
rAmaH
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. J. K. Mohan Rao
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 8:15 PM
Subject: [Sanskrit] Translation
May I request the knowledgeable to correct my
translation of the following ma.ndAkrA.nta poem?
Thanks and regards! - J K Mohana Rao
snigdhashshAmAM gurubhisupalaiH parvataM mAlyava.ntam.h
pashyesuttaMbhitamiva purashkeshapAshaM pR^ithivyAH
tatrAdyApi pratijharajalaiH jarjarAprasthabhAgAH
sItAbharturpR^ithutarashucassUcayaMtyashrupAtAn.h
Mount Malyavanta is a smooth, dark big rock
Looks as if it is supporting the matted hair
at the back of the Earth
The stream of water falling on to the decayed flat land
Looked as if it were the tears from the great grief of Rama
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