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Today's Topics:
1. RE: sanskrit Digest, Vol 31, Issue 14; pronunciation
(Michel Bostrom)
2. Ashtadhyayi ?? (Dr. Nilesh Kulkarni)
3. Re: Ashtadhyayi ?? (P.K.Ramakrishnan)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:57:18 +1000
From: "Michel Bostrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] RE: sanskrit Digest, Vol 31, Issue 14;
pronunciation
To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID:
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Ladies and Gentlemen,
There is quite a range of pronunciation of Sanskrit by modern Sanskrit
"speakers", particularly when it comes to visarga, vocalic r and anuswara.
Since the Sanskrit language was dissected in great detail by scholars for
Panini onwards, and as the science of phonetics was invented in ancient
India, the old pronunciations can be ascertained very closely. Although
most of the current popular pronunciations of these sounds are clearly not
in accordance with the ancient ones, they do arguably represent a legitimate
modern form, or dialect, of the language, and if one studies under a certain
teacher, it is obviously merely good manners to use that teacher's
pronunciation - at least in her presence.
As a student of language and history I prefer to adhere to the classical
pronuciations, not primarily out of a sense of history, but rather because
the variant modern pronunciations destroy the metre of classical Sanskrit
(and Vedic) verse. Thus, for example, the shloka, the most common metre in
classical India, has two halves of 16 syllables with four equal sections.
(McDonnell's Sanskrit Grammar has a short summary of sanskrit metres).
Pronouncing the visarga as an echo of the previous vowel adds a syllable and
the verse no longer "scans" (i.e. the beat is no longer correct). I have
been told in the past "oh, but it is such a short echo that it can be
pronounced within the time allotted for one syllable". The problem with
this if one were to allow an echo to be contained in the same syllable it
could certainly no longer be a short syllable, but would be turned into a
long syllable.
Now, the shloka distinguishes between short and long syllables and has
strict rules about when each can be used, so if we are to believe that the
echo pronunciation is the correct one, then Vyasa, for example, must have
been a very crude poet indeed, who was incapable of writing within the
chosen metre. On the other hand, if we (correctly) pronounce the visarga
simply as an unvoiced expiration of breath, then we see that the whole
Mahabharat scans beautifully (or at least the parts that I have read do).
Perhaps more importantly, Sanskrit also has a whole class of (less common)
quantitative metres where the exact length of all the syllables must add up
to a defined quantity.
The same applies to the pronunciation of vocalic r. In the modern sanskrit
dialect this is commonly pronounced "ri" in northern India and "ru" in the
south. Both are, of course, wrong. The ancient indian grammarians describe
it as a "vocalic r" for good reason, and they clearly understand by that
exactly the same thing as modern phoneticians do: the r sound unaccompanied
by any other vowel; as in English, for example, in the words "pert" or
"curt" - or in Hindi in words such as "patr" and "mantr" - with the
difference that the sanskrit vocalic r is apparently to be trilled. If one
pronounces the vocalic r as "ri" or "ru", the same problem arises with
metres as with the visarga: short syllables are lengthened.
The only way that one can believe that these variant modern pronunciations
are the original ones is if one also believes that the masterful analysis of
the language by classical indian writers, and the perfect writing system of
Sanskrit, are in fact deeply flawed - and flawed in precisely such a way as
to justify these modern pronunciations of doubtful validity.
As an aside to any readers who want to read further, years ago I studied
Sanskrit pronunciation starting with Allen's "Phonetics in Ancient India",
which quotes from a range of ancient sources, and therefore provides an
extremely good departure point. There are perhaps eve better elementary
texts on the subject available now, and I would be grateful if any reader
can give me the titles.
And, while I am no expert on metre, I take the opportunity to vent a pet
peeve by drawing to the attention of gentle readers the fact that not all
sanskrit verses are shlokas, and the workd should not be used as a synonym
for verse.
Yours cordially
Michel Boström
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Monday, 17 October 2005 04:01
To: [email protected]
Subject: sanskrit Digest, Vol 31, Issue 14
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Today's Topics:
1. shatru form (Rajeshwari Hemmadi)
2. Re: Visarga Pronunciation (Karthik Raman)
3. RE: Dharma (Haresh Bakshi)
4. udyogaparvam - sarga 18 - 3 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
5. Mr Jay Vaidya : Pronunciation of matiH (Jay Vaidya)
6. Re: Dharma (Jean-Yves)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:52:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rajeshwari Hemmadi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] shatru form
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi,
I would like to know about 'shatru' form of verb.
some times 'puling' form ( Prathanma vibhakti ekvachan) ends with 'n' like
Gam (go)- gachhan.... while Da ( give)- 'Dadat' ... what is the rule for
that.... when it ends with 'n' & when with 't' ??
with regards
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 09:45:39 +0530
From: Karthik Raman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Re: Visarga Pronunciation
To: [email protected]
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Dear Zach
Visarga (H) and Anusvar (M) have a lot of 'interesting' pronunciation.
What I state below is my understanding based on what I have been taught.
Let's take a few examples (I've used ITRANS-ish representation)
1. rAmaH: pronounced as rAmaha
2. pashubhiH: as pashubhihi
3. rAmayoH: as rAmayoho
4. rAmaiH: as rAmaihi
5. raveH: as ravehe
The basic visarga sound is a ha, but it changed around based on the previous
mAtra.
Critically, the visarga is dropped or a sandhi is introduced or its
pronunciation is changed a bit, when it's part of a sentence and not a
standalone word. (I have a feeling that it is not so carefully followed in
normal sanskrit, but when reciting vedAs, for example, sentences are rarely
split, and the correct pronunciation of visarga becomes crucial) For
example:
1. sItAyAH pataye: is typically pronounced as sItAyAf-pataye (note 'f'!).
Alternatively, you could say sItAyAha (pause) pataye.
2. namaH kakubhAya: is pronounced as namah-kakubhAya, clearly indicating a
'h' sound at namah, but not a namaha.
3. namaH may be changed to namo when it is followed by some consonants. e.g
namaH bhavAya : as namo bhavAya 4. namaH shivAya : as namashshivAya: note
the double sh instead of the visarga.
5. namaH IdhriyAya: as nama IdhriyAya: visarga dropped before a vowel
(other than 'a/A'?).
The avagraha may be introduced in the appropriate cases.
6. devaiH sadA: devaissadA (double s instead of visarga) or devaihi sadA 7.
yajuH tasmAt: yajustasmAt (sandhi) 8. namaH xullakebhyaH: there is never a
sandhi with visarga before xa (kshha). You indicate a clear pause;
namaha-[pause]-xullakebhyaH.....
I have just given a very few examples above. There are obviously a
comprehensive set of rules for sandhi and pronunciation of the visarga,
available on several books. I can try and find out one nice reference if you
do require.
AnusvAr (M) again has quite a few rules. But, practice varies. Often, people
pronounce AnusvAr as 'm', but when it is in a sentence, it is often
pronounced differently:
1. veMkaTesha is actually ve~NkaTesha (anusvar foll. by ka kha ga gha
: pronounced as ~Na)
2. paMcha is actually not pancha but pa~ncha! (anusvar foll. by cha chha ja
jha: pronounced as ~na) 3. shuMDa as shuNDa : anusvar foll. by Ta Tha Da
Dha is pronounced as Na 4. AdityaM tarpayAmi: as AdityantarpayAmi
oM namo: as onnamo (anusvar foll. by ta tha da dha : pronounced as na)
5. easy: anusvar foll. by pa pha ba bha: pronounced as ma itself.
6. pavitraM yo: pavitra.Nyyo (that's the closest I can come to in writing,
but the pronunciation is better learnt orally!)
You would agree, that this pronunciation is actually a bit natural and least
strenuous (in terms of altering the mouth/tongue position)!
I would be grateful if some of the more erudite people in this group can
throw further light on this.
Regards
Karthik
--
**************************************************************************
KARTHIK RAMAN
Graduate Research Student
Supercomputer Education and
Research Centre/Bioinformatics Centre
Indian Institute of Science
Bangalore - 560 012
Phone: +91-80-23601409 (Ext 24)
+91-80-22932469 (Ext 24)
+91-98862-22404 (Mobile)
E-mail: karthik AT rishi.serc.iisc.ernet.in
Webpage: http://physics.iisc.ernet.in/~dichome/sumalab/members/karthik/
Blogspot: karthikraman.blogspot.com
**************************************************************************
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:21:44 -0400
From: "Haresh Bakshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [Sanskrit] Dharma
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
namaste divya, the word 'dharma" is used in the Gita many times, but it does
not mean the same thing every time.
dharma [Gita, 2.40.3 etc]. It is widely taken to mean justice, law, duty,
righteousness, noble living, religion, unalterable religious principles,
ones own nature, a system of belief and philosophy and the like. It is also
thought of as the ethical principle that sustains one and sees one through
any situation.
This is one of the reasons why we need to study the Gita with an experienced
teacher.
dhanyavaadaH |
hareshaH |
----------------------------
Haresh BAKSHI
http://www.SoundOfIndia.com
-----------------------------
>From: Divya Jhingran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Sanskrit] Dharma
>Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:11:18 -0400
>Patanjali's yoga sutra 111.14 -
> Shanta udita avyapadeshya dharmaan anupati dharmi
> Does the word dharma here have a different meaning from the generally
>understood meaning of the word?
> In the following quote from the Gita (sorry I don't have the
>reference) is the word dharma the same as the one above?
> "Sarva dharmaan parityajay maamekam sharanam vraja"
> I was told dharma also means "thing" and in the above context that
>would make sense. It's hard to make sense of otherwise giving up
>dharma. My book translates Patanjali's use of the word dharma as "form" or
"substratum".
> If there are two different meanings of the word dharma, does it mean
>that the root forms are also different? In that case, what are the two
>different etymologies?
> Thanks and regards,
>Divya
>_______________________________________________
>sanskrit mailing list
>[email protected]
>http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/sanskrit
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 07:30:00 -0700
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Sanskrit] udyogaparvam - sarga 18 - 3
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Translation by Vikram Santurkar under supervision of Dr. Sarasvati Mohan
shlokaH 3
sarvairdevaiH parivR^itaH shakro vR^itraniShUdanaH .
gandharvairapsarobhishcha yAtastribhuvanaM prabhuH .. 3..\
padavibhAgaH
sarvaiH devaiH parivR^itaH shakraH vR^itraniShUdanaH .
gandharvaiH apsarobhiH cha yAtaH tribhuvanaM prabhuH ..
anvayaH
vR^itraniShUdanaH prabhuH shakraH sarvaiH devaiH gandharvaiH apsarobhiH cha
parivR^itaH tribhuvanaM yAtaH.
pratipadArthaH
vR^itraniShUdanaH=The destroyer of Vritrasura; prabhuH=the lord;
shakraH=Indra; sarvaiH=with all; devaiH=by the gods; gandharvaiH=by
celestial musicians; apsarobhiH=with celestial beauties; cha=and;
parivR^itaH=being surrounded; tribhuvanaM=the kingdom of gods; yAtaH=went
anuvAdaH
Shalya says: The destroyer of Vritrasura, the lord, Indra, being surrounded
by gods,
celestial musicians, celestial beauties went to the kingdom of gods.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 06:19:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Mr Jay Vaidya : Pronunciation of matiH
To: [email protected]
Cc: yogesh kale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
yogesha-mahodaya, svasti
guru-vachanaM sarvath-aiva shirasaa-vandyam | yadA tu
bahavo guravaH, teshhAM tu vachanAni
paraspara-khaNDitAni, bahushrutasy-aachaaryasy-aiva
mataani lokeshhu grahaNiiyaani |
pANinIyAyAM vR^ittau visargasya sthAnaM kaNTha-iti
uktam, visargasya ko.api prayatno na |
yatra yatra varNA aneka-sthAn-ochchaaritaas- tatra
tatra vR^ittau sarva-sthaana-gaNanaM spashhTameva
kR^itam, e-ai-o-au-varNAnaM vishhaye yathaa |
mahaabaleshvara-bhaTTa-guruNaa pratipaaditaani "-hi,
-hu" iti uchchaaraNAni dvi-sthAnAni (kaNTha-tAlu,
kaNTh-oshhTya), sa-prayatnAni cha -- atra
pANinIya-vR^itti-virodhaH | sAmAnya-prayoge
vR^ittir-eva pramANam iti varam | ataH visargasya
"visarjaniiyasya" uchchaaraNaM
kaNThasthita-dhvani-visarjanam, a-prayatnaatmakaH
kaNThasthito dhvani-tyago vaa |
saamaanya-prayoga iti punaH su-spashhTaM hi vaktavyam
| adhyaatma-vishhaye vaiyaakaraNaanaam an-abhiGYataa
sarva-shrutaa vidyate | tatra aatma-prachiitiH
pramANam | moxa-arthaM yat mantrapaThanam, tat
kurutaam yathaa upadishhTaM sva-guruN-aiva |
------------------------------
The teacher's statements must always be honored. When
there are many teachers, and moreover, their
statements contradict one another, the more well known
teacher's opinions are to be accepted in the public.
In the pANinIya vR^itti (the traditional short
commentary to the sUtra-s), the articulation site of
the visarga is given as the throat (gutteral) and it
has no articulatory effort (wind direction by the
inner organs).
Whenever sound-elements have more than one
articulatory site, in those cases the vR^itti clearly
lists all of those sites; for example, for e ai, o au.
The pronunciations that the teacher
mahaabaleshvara-bhaTTa professes, "-hi" and "-hu" are
each with two articulatory sites (throat-palate, and
throat-lips) they have articulatory effort (i.e., wind
direction by internal organs). This contradicts the
pANiniiya vR^itti. For common use, the vR^itti is the
better authority. Hence, the pronunciation of the
visarga (also called the "visarjaniiya") is the
letting go of sound at the throat, with no
articulatory effort (meaning no wind direction).
Again I must stress "for common use". The inexpertness
of grammarians about spiritual matters is well known.
There insight is the authority. If chants are being
chanted for spiritual achievement, then for one's
benefit, one should do as one's own guru advises.
bhavadiiyo
dhana.njayaH
P.S. The vR^itti is to pANini's sUtra 1.1.9, which
refers to phonetic matters.
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:44:02 -0700
From: "Jean-Yves" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Dharma
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
namaste divya,
I understand that the word dharma, as many sanskrit words, has a general
meaning wich can take several more specific meanings according the context.
Etymologically , it is said coming from the root Dhru, to hold, maintain,
establish, sustain. Ma may come from the root Maa, to measure. The dharma is
what upholds you as a human being, measures out and holds your developed
humanity, by keeping yourself always to your highest law of becoming.
But as an ethical law, it is also limited, so in order to go into the
Infinite Consciousness, one has to abandon all dharmas and find refuge in
the Supreme alone, as it is said in the Gita. So dharmatyajanam can be, in
certain contexts, the right way, and the refuge, sharanam.
Dharma can hardly mean 'form' or 'substratum' by itself, except if it is
related to svaroopam and svabhaava : From your true nature, svabhaava, a
true law of becoming will express itself rhythmically, svadharma, giving
birth (by its rhythmical repetition) to the stable form of your true being,
svaroopam. From this, the idea of form or substratum might come out, but it
is a very secondary meaning, stretching a bit far the original one.
Generally, dharma is always the law of development or of activity of a
natural being in whatever field. Each natural existence has a dharma of its
own, even time has its rhythmical laws (yugadharma).
sarvesham shaantirbhavatu
jeanyves
----- Original Message -----
From: "Haresh Bakshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: [Sanskrit] Dharma
> namaste divya, the word 'dharma" is used in the Gita many times, but it
does
> not mean the same thing every time.
>
> dharma [Gita, 2.40.3 etc]. It is widely taken to mean justice, law,
> duty, righteousness, noble living, religion, unalterable religious
> principles, one's own nature, a system of belief and
> philosophy and the like. It is also thought of as the ethical
> principle that sustains one and sees one through any
> situation.
>
> This is one of the reasons why we need to study the Gita with
> an experienced teacher.
>
> dhanyavaadaH |
> hareshaH |
>
> ----------------------------
> Haresh BAKSHI
> http://www.SoundOfIndia.com
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
>
> >From: Divya Jhingran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: [Sanskrit] Dharma
> >Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:11:18 -0400
>
> >Patanjali's yoga sutra 111.14 -
> > Shanta udita avyapadeshya dharmaan anupati dharmi
> > Does the word dharma here have a different meaning from the generally
> >understood meaning of the word?
> > In the following quote from the Gita (sorry I don't have the reference)
> >is
> >the word dharma the same as the one above?
> > "Sarva dharmaan parityajay maamekam sharanam vraja"
> > I was told dharma also means "thing" and in the above context that
would
> >make sense. It's hard to make sense of otherwise giving up dharma. My
book
> >translates Patanjali's use of the word dharma as "form" or "substratum".
> > If there are two different meanings of the word dharma, does it mean
that
> >the root forms are also different? In that case, what are the two
different
> >etymologies?
> > Thanks and regards,
> >Divya
>
>
> >_______________________________________________
> >sanskrit mailing list
> >[email protected]
> >http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/sanskrit
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sanskrit mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/sanskrit
------------------------------
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End of sanskrit Digest, Vol 31, Issue 14
****************************************
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:43:45 +0100 (BST)
From: "Dr. Nilesh Kulkarni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Ashtadhyayi ??
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
namo namaH,
I want to know availability of any software regarding aSTAdhyAyI.
If it is there, please anyone of you let me know.
bhavadIyaH,
nIleshaH
---------------------------------
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:05:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: "P.K.Ramakrishnan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Ashtadhyayi ??
To: "Dr. Nilesh Kulkarni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, sanskrit digest
<[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Please try the following -
www.taralabalu.org/panini
"Dr. Nilesh Kulkarni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
namo namaH,
I want to know availability of any software regarding aSTAdhyAyI.
If it is there, please anyone of you let me know.
bhavadIyaH,
nIleshaH
---------------------------------
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now._______________________________________________
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