Pior que la era muito frio, impossivel não tomar cafe... mas só descontavam o que excedia de um "limite".
2011/10/5 cleiton alves <[email protected]> > Tiago > Descontar cafezinho eh sacanagem hein ! > > Em 05/10/11, Tiago Peczenyj<[email protected]> escreveu: > > Daniel, > > > > acabei me alongando em algums comentários alguns emails atrás. > > > > Seria bom desmembrarmos esta thread para falar sobre mercado de trabalho. > > > > 2011/10/5 Daniel Vinciguerra <[email protected]> > > > >> Senhores, > >> > >> Para não perdermos o foco ta thread e aproveitarmos melhor a discussão e > >> todos os pontos de vista, me prontifiquei e entrei em contato com a > Elisa > >> (moça do recrutamento) para uma negociação sem compromisso e postarei > aqui > >> os resultados da negociação para ajudar o pessoal que esta pensando em > >> concorrer a vaga. > >> > >> De qualquer forma em um primeiro contato a Elisa ja deixou escapar que o > >> valor é aberto e ela precisa responder a solicitação da IBM ainda hoje. > >> > >> Forte abraço a todos, > >> > >> * > >> Daniel Vinciguerra* > >> Web Solutions Architect and Co-Owner at Bivee > >> http://github.com/dvinciguerra <http://github.com/dvinciguerra> > >> > >> > >> 2011/10/5 cleiton alves <[email protected]> > >> > >>> Herman > >>> Fique tranquilo , cada um esta colocando o ponto de vista sobre o > >>> assunto , não precisa de brigas , flamewar essas coisas. > >>> > >>> Abraços > >>> > >>> Em 05/10/11, Carlos Eduardo Langoni<[email protected]> escreveu: > >>> > Hernan e demais colegas da lista, > >>> > > >>> > Eu concordo com generalizar--, mas também acho que isso tudo é > reflexo > >>> da > >>> > experiência de todos com este tipo de negociação, não necessariamente > >>> > estamos falando da IBM e suas terceirizadas, mas de uma forma geral o > >>> > mercado tem se comportado assim, papel acima da experiência, se você > >>> > não > >>> tem > >>> > papel não se encaixa nas vagas. > >>> > > >>> > Tudo bem, vai lá, ficou totalmente offtopic a conversa, mas daí a ter > >>> > vontade de sair da lista, nem tanto. > >>> > > >>> > Concordo com o Daniel Vinciguerra, gato escaldado tem medo de água > >>> > fria. > >>> > > >>> > Abraços a todos! > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > 2011/10/5 Alexei Znamensky <[email protected]> > >>> > > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> 2011/10/5 [email protected] < > [email protected]> > >>> >> > >>> >> Por acaso alguem ligou e perguntou ou negociou algo ? > >>> >>> Essas especulações marrons me dão nojo... > >>> >>> Se não tem coisa boa para falar melhor não falar nada. > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> hernan++ # se nao sabe, nao fala > >>> >> hernan++ # é sempre fácil generalizar e especular > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> Só vi comentários ruins, pessimistas e de péssimo gosto, lamento > >>> >>> demais... da até vontade de sair da lista > >>> >>> > >>> >>> abs > >>> >>> > >>> >>> hernan > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> ------------------------------ > >>> >>> Return-Path: <saopaulo-pm-bounces+hernan.lopes= > [email protected] > >>> > > >>> >>> Received: from x6.develooper.com (x6.develooper.com > [207.171.7.86]) > >>> by > >>> >>> us-dal-dtb-962-ip3.itmnetworks.net with SMTP; 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> >>> >>> Wed, 05 Oct 2011 04:46:15 -0700 > >>> >>> Received: by vws13 with SMTP id 13so2006093vws.16 > >>> >>> for <[email protected]>; Wed, 05 Oct 2011 04:46:11 -0700 > (PDT) > >>> >>> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; > >>> >>> s=gamma; > >>> >>> > h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to > >>> >>> :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; > >>> >>> bh=SkzaEdgUFKTHactDlUXq3aWhnqikOt1jiEvvkdrxWaI=; > >>> >>> > b=n+1neis+bFVSkINU/KecQA4CyJjCP4vSO1q0asPY4lajXERG9d9uC3WhUFG39r0E7t > >>> >>> > dUA3lrSMCEKB4YkdDKmbqwEziqJYqvXQD++6tBlMQ3WJNLGPWBAuj56FtFZ8dqmejabT > >>> >>> u9h6j42feFgkk0QSn5O47JCDGlPoFdfrvg+7E= > >>> >>> Received: by 10.52.175.131 with SMTP id > >>> >>> ca3mr2162968vdc.502.1317815170178; > >>> >>> Wed, 05 Oct 2011 04:46:10 -0700 (PDT) > >>> >>> MIME-Version: 1.0 > >>> >>> Received: by 10.52.162.202 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Oct 2011 04:45:40 > -0700 > >>> >>> (PDT) > >>> >>> In-Reply-To: <CACE0rho4qkmQ= > >>> >>> [email protected]> > >>> >>> References: <[email protected] > > > >>> >>> < > cace0rhq0zk5kbkssaadmym+w4s7tcs9qecu2vx7brhqg-x0...@mail.gmail.com> > >>> >>> <CAAj= > [email protected]> > >>> >>> <CANgJoABAKMHaSPA3uKyTdVp8_YAUwHD9j=3jrA= > [email protected]> > >>> >>> <[email protected]> > >>> >>> <CAB_CdjwgMdVM_1ROTh8ewwVkqPwDu6kjq+YErkKW7S= > [email protected]> > >>> >>> <CAAHFYHqz3hk3t1=Pp1zC5= > [email protected]> > >>> >>> < > caemyuosjjegsxczkorfa2tdpmpeexbylaqqtpkf9j7vn-cg...@mail.gmail.com> > >>> >>> < > cab_cdjwyqmcuorndyn-4nyxz877wamyjoqbg6pgu4cr2on_...@mail.gmail.com> > >>> >>> <CAFK_j11ZQn0i0PugFA_rZGJ= > [email protected]> > >>> >>> <CAK_LRQx0VqF9YpdsATq-tfHS7WxDkOmP=4rPwVi-n= > [email protected]> > >>> >>> <CACE0rho4qkmQ= > [email protected]> > >>> >>> From: Carlos Costa <[email protected]> > >>> >>> Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 08:45:40 -0300 > >>> >>> Message-ID: < > >>> >>> calegqb547y_czu3d-ffahg+vd34w90lbo2ccprffobmferw...@mail.gmail.com > > > >>> >>> To: [email protected] > >>> >>> X-Virus-Checked: Checked > >>> >>> Subject: Re: [SP-pm] Fwd: SYSTEMPLAN CONSULTORIA - ELISA RODRIGUES > >>> >>> X-BeenThere: [email protected] > >>> >>> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 > >>> >>> Precedence: list > >>> >>> Reply-To: [email protected] > >>> >>> List-Id: The Sao Paulo Perl Mongers List <saopaulo-pm.pm.org> > >>> >>> List-Unsubscribe: <http://mail.pm.org/mailman/options/saopaulo-pm > >, > >>> >>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > >>> >>> List-Archive: <http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/saopaulo-pm> > >>> >>> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> > >>> >>> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help> > >>> >>> List-Subscribe: <http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm>, > >>> >>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=subscribe> > >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > >>> >>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>> >>> Errors-To: [email protected] > >>> >>> Sender: [email protected] > >>> >>> X-Rcpt-To: <[email protected]> > >>> >>> X-SmarterMail-Spam: SPF_None, HostKarma - Whitelist, ISpamAssassin > 0 > >>> >>> [raw: > >>> >>> 0], Custom Rules [List-Unsubscribe 5:5;Received -10:-10] > >>> >>> X-SmarterMail-TotalSpamWeight: -8 > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Sabem o que é pior sobre esse mercado marrom de TI: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> - querem pagar mal, com contratos duvidosos via PJ ou quarterizados > >>> >>> > >>> >>> - tem altas taxas de turnover[1] e funcionários que não se > >>> >>> identificam > >>> >>> com a missão da empresa (no geral, por falta de motivação $$$) > >>> >>> > >>> >>> - Praticam uma das 2 maneiras de gerar lucro: aumentar receitas > acima > >>> >>> das despesas, ou cortar gastos abaixo das receitas. Há relatos de > >>> >>> empresas que cortam até café! > >>> >>> > >>> >>> - E ainda saem por ai dando entrevista pra radio/TV/jornal/web > >>> >>> dizendo > >>> >>> que falta profissional de TI no mercado. Falta mesmo é pagar bem. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> [ ]s > >>> >>> Carlos. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnover_(employment) > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> 2011/10/5 Hernan Lopes <[email protected]>: > >>> >>> > nojo! > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > 2011/10/4 Hélder Máximo Botter Ribas <[email protected]> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> O que esta sendo falado pode ser aplicado ao mercado > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> Mas é a velha e boa intuição que se adquire com o tempo que pode > >>> >>> >> ajudar > >>> >>> a > >>> >>> >> "prever" se vai entrar num projeto desafiador ou numa fria. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> Pois todos sabemos que exitem projetos e projetos, > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> E sempre vamos ver gerentes que brigam pela equipe e outros que > >>> brigam > >>> >>> com > >>> >>> >> a equipe, equipe de vendas ruim e boas, estratégias de negócios > >>> >>> suicidas ou > >>> >>> >> conservadoras, produto estabelecido ou briga para oferecer > >>> >>> >> serviços > >>> em > >>> >>> >> diversos lugares > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> Claro que as empresas de body shop que existem na ibm são > famosas > >>> (e > >>> >>> >> as > >>> >>> >> mesmas atuam em diversas outras consultorias e outros clientes), > e > >>> >>> emprega > >>> >>> >> muitos colegas. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> E aquela, se o salário não compensar o trabalho ( ou a troca de > >>> >>> trabalho), > >>> >>> >> para que aceitar? > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> Hélder > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> 2011/10/4 Alexei Znamensky <[email protected]> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> 2011/10/4 Tiago Peczenyj <[email protected]> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> Tem um outro detalhe > >>> >>> >>>> Empresas como a IBM possuem centenas de divisões e vivem > >>> comprando > >>> >>> >>>> outras empresas. > >>> >>> >>>> É bem possivel que algumas dessas divisões sejam caóticas, > >>> >>> >>>> outras > >>> >>> sejam > >>> >>> >>>> extraordinárias. > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> Estou lá dentro, e te garanto que é exatamente assim. Há áreas > na > >>> IBM > >>> >>> que > >>> >>> >>> são fantásticas para se trabalhar, e outras que são o fino do > >>> lixo. > >>> >>> >>> Do > >>> >>> lado > >>> >>> >>> de fora, não se vê isso, então, basicamente você: > >>> >>> >>> 1) ou já trabalhou lá e sabe > >>> >>> >>> 2) ou conhece alguém que trabalha ou trabalhou lá > >>> >>> >>> 3) ou arrisca > >>> >>> >>> 4) ou nem arrisca e sai fora > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> Na pratica, no Brasil, com TI Corporativa, existe a tendência > a > >>> >>> >>>> maior > >>> >>> >>>> burocratização do trabalho e terceirização do trabalho. De > >>> repente > >>> >>> aqueles > >>> >>> >>>> caras q foram contratados por 6 meses para fazer um sisteminha > >>> >>> simples foi a > >>> >>> >>>> unica forma de fazer esse maldito sistema pois o gerente não > >>> tinha > >>> >>> como > >>> >>> >>>> contratar um mizero funcionario (falta autorização, > >>> >>> >>>> eletricidade, > >>> >>> etc) mas > >>> >>> >>>> podia gastar 6 milhões com terceiros. Mas se esse gerente > >>> consegue > >>> >>> uma > >>> >>> >>>> empresa que cobra 4 milhões, melhor pra ele que vai economizar > >>> >>> dinheiro e > >>> >>> >>>> pode sobrar para alguma outra coisa. Se a empresa contratada é > >>> ruim, > >>> >>> a > >>> >>> >>>> galera terceirizada vai sofrer. > >>> >>> >>>> E para vencer essas "licitações" quanto mais papel, > >>> >>> >>>> certificação, > >>> >>> sigla, > >>> >>> >>>> melhor. Mas é só uma parte da realidade Brasileira e mundial. > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:43 PM, Daniel de Oliveira Mantovani > >>> >>> >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> 2011/10/4 cleiton alves <[email protected]>: > >>> >>> >>>>> > Uma coisa é classica , estuda-se muito e paga-se pouco > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> Os caras que eu conheço que estudaram muito até onde eu sei > não > >>> >>> ganham > >>> >>> >>>>> pouco não, nenhum deles. E todos eles acham que eles > estudaram > >>> >>> pouco. > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> > > >>> >>> >>>>> > =begin disclaimer > >>> >>> >>>>> > Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ > >>> >>> >>>>> > SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: [email protected] > >>> >>> >>>>> > L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> > >>> >>> >>>>> > =end disclaimer > >>> >>> >>>>> > > >>> >>> >>>>> > > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> -- > >>> >>> >>>>> http://noticiasglobal.com > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> "If you’ve never written anything thoughtful, then you’ve > never > >>> had > >>> >>> >>>>> any difficult, important, or interesting thoughts. That’s the > >>> >>> secret: > >>> >>> >>>>> people who don’t write, are people who don’t think." > >>> >>> >>>>> =begin disclaimer > >>> >>> >>>>> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ > >>> >>> >>>>> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: [email protected] > >>> >>> >>>>> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> > >>> >>> >>>>> =end disclaimer > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> -- > >>> >>> >>>> Tiago B. Peczenyj > >>> >>> >>>> Linux User #405772 > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> http://pacman.blog.br > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> =begin disclaimer > >>> >>> >>>> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ > >>> >>> >>>> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: [email protected] > >>> >>> >>>> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> > >>> >>> >>>> =end disclaimer > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- > >>> >>> >>> Alexei "RUSSOZ" Znamensky | russoz EM gmail com | > >>> http://russoz.org > >>> >>> >>> GPG fingerprint = 42AB E78C B83A AE31 7D27 1CF3 C66F B5C7 71CA > >>> 9F3C > >>> >>> >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/alexeiz | > http://github.com/russoz > >>> >>> >>> "I don't know... fly casual!" -- Han Solo > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> =begin disclaimer > >>> >>> >>> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ > >>> >>> >>> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: [email protected] > >>> >>> >>> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> > >>> >>> >>> =end disclaimer > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> -- > >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------ > >>> >>> >> Hélder Máximo Botter Ribas > >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------ > >>> >>> >> twitter: @hmbr > >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------ > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> =begin disclaimer > >>> >>> >> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ > >>> >>> >> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: [email protected] > >>> >>> >> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> > >>> >>> >> =end disclaimer > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > =begin disclaimer > >>> >>> > Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ > >>> >>> > SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: [email protected] > >>> >>> > L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> > >>> >>> > =end disclaimer > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> =begin disclaimer > >>> >>> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ > >>> >>> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: [email protected] > >>> >>> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> > >>> >>> =end disclaimer > >>> >>> > >>> >>> =begin disclaimer > >>> >>> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ > >>> >>> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: [email protected] > >>> >>> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> > >>> >>> =end disclaimer > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> -- > >>> >> Alexei "RUSSOZ" Znamensky | russoz EM gmail com | http://russoz.org > >>> >> GPG fingerprint = 42AB E78C B83A AE31 7D27 1CF3 C66F B5C7 71CA 9F3C > >>> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/alexeiz | http://github.com/russoz > >>> >> "I don't know... fly casual!" -- Han Solo > >>> >> > >>> >> =begin disclaimer > >>> >> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ > >>> >> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: [email protected] > >>> >> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> > >>> >> =end disclaimer > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> cleiton alves > >>> =begin disclaimer > >>> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ > >>> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: [email protected] > >>> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> > >>> =end disclaimer > >>> > >> > >> > >> =begin disclaimer > >> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ > >> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: [email protected] > >> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> > >> =end disclaimer > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Tiago B. Peczenyj > > Linux User #405772 > > > > http://pacman.blog.br > > > > > -- > cleiton alves > =begin disclaimer > Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ > SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: [email protected] > L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> > =end disclaimer > -- Tiago B. Peczenyj Linux User #405772 http://pacman.blog.br -- Tiago B. Peczenyj Linux User #405772 http://pacman.blog.br
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