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It relates to:
support #393, project Savane
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LATEST MODIFICATIONS of support #393:
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Posted by: Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Posted on: 2004-12-15 19:06 (Europe/Paris)
_______________________________________________________
Follow-up Comment:
"Both of these are not necessarily satisfactory. In Europe it is not customary
for users to set their language to their "native settings". Think a moment how
people access international pages written in English all the time
You see, I rather have "en" setting all the time, not my national languaguage
setting, because 99 % of the pages I access are in English. "
That's your problem. Someone who use a desktop in any language should have his
browser automatically configured to use its own language when possible. I
think that's the way KDE and Microsoft Windows works - and I think that's the
way it should be working.
If you specifically configure your browse to use english locale, deal with
english locale. What's the point?
Also, I wonder on what ground is based the claim that most internet users read
english-speaking websites - and would have selected english as desktop
environment language.
"would also argue for ISO, that the dates in this format
are eaer to "sort" mentally, when the dates (or posts) are read in a tabular
manner:"
1. You tend to ignore habbits. For a normal french, not having date in the
order "day month year" require special attention.
2. As pointed out by Vincent, your logic is your own. How can someone prove it
is more logical to have YYYY-MM-DD instead of DD-MM-YYYY? Both approach have
pro and cons.
But noone of these can pretend being more logical than the other.
(YYYY-MM-DD is only specifically useful to sort data with a software, that's
off-topic here).
"Could the user prefered time format string be saved in the user's profile
settings? "
No. What you are asking is to reconsider the whole approach of
internationalization. You are "looking this issue from the standardisation
point of view" but where you consider internationalization useless (this is
what means "ISO a better choice in diverse environment than selecting some
"national" setting"). What you call "some "national" setting" (I wonder why
national was quoted) are real national _standards_.
I suggest that we end this debate now, as I think your two arguments were
addressed:
- there so such thing as logic a standard would have over another one ; they
are likely to have all their self logic. Otherwise they would not have ended
up "national standard" of some country. And what we think about one country
national standards is irrelevant here.
- we have made the choice to internationalize Savane, that is to try
to provide a system respecting national standards of users, whatever they
are.
Not to use a self-proclamed international standard.
It can hardly imagine one valid reason to revert that choice.
In your specific case, you seems to be unhappy because you browse saying you
want english content but yet do not want english date formatting. This is not
really our issue; if you ask websites to give you english content, they should
do that in respect of english standards.
==============================================================================
OVERVIEW of support #393:
==============================================================================
URL:
<http://gna.org/support/?func=detailitem&item_id=393>
Summary: Please use ISO dates (YYYY-MM-DD)
Project: Savane
Submitted by: jaalto
Submitted on: mar 14.12.2004 � 08:44
Category: Feature Request
Priority: 5 - Normal
Status: Wont Do
Privacy: Public
Assigned to: yeupou
Open/Closed: Closed
Release:
_______________________________________________________
The savannah.org site uses date formats like
"Tue 12/14/2004 at 07:35" in the tracker header "submitted on". It would be
better if the dates used in the program were in ISO 8601 format, which is
better for international use.
Like YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM Wday
_______________________________________________________
Follow-up Comments:
-------------------------------------------------------
Date: mer 15.12.2004 � 19:06 By: Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
"Both of these are not necessarily satisfactory. In Europe it is not customary
for users to set their language to their "native settings". Think a moment how
people access international pages written in English all the time
You see, I rather have "en" setting all the time, not my national languaguage
setting, because 99 % of the pages I access are in English. "
That's your problem. Someone who use a desktop in any language should have his
browser automatically configured to use its own language when possible. I
think that's the way KDE and Microsoft Windows works - and I think that's the
way it should be working.
If you specifically configure your browse to use english locale, deal with
english locale. What's the point?
Also, I wonder on what ground is based the claim that most internet users read
english-speaking websites - and would have selected english as desktop
environment language.
"would also argue for ISO, that the dates in this format
are eaer to "sort" mentally, when the dates (or posts) are read in a tabular
manner:"
1. You tend to ignore habbits. For a normal french, not having date in the
order "day month year" require special attention.
2. As pointed out by Vincent, your logic is your own. How can someone prove it
is more logical to have YYYY-MM-DD instead of DD-MM-YYYY? Both approach have
pro and cons.
But noone of these can pretend being more logical than the other.
(YYYY-MM-DD is only specifically useful to sort data with a software, that's
off-topic here).
"Could the user prefered time format string be saved in the user's profile
settings? "
No. What you are asking is to reconsider the whole approach of
internationalization. You are "looking this issue from the standardisation
point of view" but where you consider internationalization useless (this is
what means "ISO a better choice in diverse environment than selecting some
"national" setting"). What you call "some "national" setting" (I wonder why
national was quoted) are real national _standards_.
I suggest that we end this debate now, as I think your two arguments were
addressed:
- there so such thing as logic a standard would have over another one ; they
are likely to have all their self logic. Otherwise they would not have ended
up "national standard" of some country. And what we think about one country
national standards is irrelevant here.
- we have made the choice to internationalize Savane, that is to try
to provide a system respecting national standards of users, whatever they
are.
Not to use a self-proclamed international standard.
It can hardly imagine one valid reason to revert that choice.
In your specific case, you seems to be unhappy because you browse saying you
want english content but yet do not want english date formatting. This is not
really our issue; if you ask websites to give you english content, they should
do that in respect of english standards.
-------------------------------------------------------
Date: mer 15.12.2004 � 18:18 By: Jari Aalto <jaalto>
I see that I need to explain a bit more.
- The savannah is meant for web
- User visits the page with his browser
What time should he see? I'm not sure from where the time comes and I gather
from the comments, that there is some
strftime() (?) or equivalent call whose result is displayed on the page.
Now, if the format depends on
- Environment the system is installed on
- Browser that is used
Both of these are not necessarily satisfactory. In Europe it is not customary
for users to set their language to their "native settings". Think a moment
how people access international pages written in English all the time.
You see, I rather have "en" setting all the time, not my national languaguage
setting, because 99 % of the pages I access are in English.
For date, the international ISO, format would work best across the nations and
would cause no ambiguities. It also widely used format in open source programs
that present dates.
I think I'm looking this issue from the standardisation point of view where I
would see ISO a better choice in diverse environment than selecting some
"national" setting based on browser by default.
I would also argue for ISO, that the dates in this format
are eaer to "sort" mentally, when the dates (or posts) are read in a tabular
manner:
2002-10-09 11:11 some post
2003-11-21 15:14 other post
2003-12-11 03:00 yet more port
2004-05-05 22:15 and more.
...
Than e.g the current dates that are seen e.g. in this forum:
Wed 12/15/2004 at 13:32
Wed 12/15/2004 at 13:03
There is problem however and Vincent mentioned, that if "broser setting" is
used, then there is no way to get other date formats that the user could
prefer. Could the user prefered time format string be saved in the user's
profile settings?
-------------------------------------------------------
Date: mer 15.12.2004 � 14:32 By: Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
On i18n configuration issue, my personal stance is to assume that it is up to
desktop environment to make choices and our to make sure we respect these
choices. We cannot always easily do it but we can try. Adding i18n conf option
inside savane seems redundant (a nightmare if it every application was
behaving this way.
-------------------------------------------------------
Date: mer 15.12.2004 � 14:03 By: Vincent Caron <zerodeux>
My browser has 'English' set as it first language and I indeed read "Tue
12/14/04 at 08:44".
I think the problem is that no language will define the ISO format as its date
format. In other words, ISO dates are not for normal human beings, only
computer nerds :).
More seriously, it's true than ISO dates are handy for programmers, and there
is no way to have them on Savane since this is not part of a natural locale. I
suspect the question should be: is it worth to have a personnal pref (bool:
use ISO dates) to override one's locale settings ? Dunno.
-------------------------------------------------------
Date: mar 14.12.2004 � 12:23 By: Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
I think my message was not clear enough. When I talk about "internalisation
settings", I talk about users own settings, something they have complete
control over. There is no reason for french, german, greek or whatever to get
dates in the American way while they use a web application. I cannot think of
a case where disrespecting users settings is a good choice, apart if it is an
internal decision made by a company for an internal use installation.
There is no such thing as the "default" we could distribute. The default
locale is C, more or less the american -- it is so with the glibc. If someone
gets something different, it is because of his personal environment
configuration -- a configuration we have no reason to distrust and ignore.
I personally get at this very instant the interface in French, with your
comment date as "mar 14.12.2004 � 11:36", why should I get this date in a
format that is not natural to me? What would be the benefit?
If the default locale given when there's no environment configuration at all
disatisfies you, I suggest that you fill a bug report against the glibc
instead, because Savane use glibc locales via gettext (unless I miss
something, which is always possible). The way Savane is internationalized is
the way most free software running on GNU/Linux are internationalized.
In your case, how your browser is configured, internationalization-wise?
Regards,
-------------------------------------------------------
Date: mar 14.12.2004 � 11:36 By: Jari Aalto <jaalto>
In Savannah's case the "respect to internationalisaton settings" is not a good
way to set defaults, because:
- The pages are usually meant to be distributed widely
(access is "world")
If the program were primarily used only internally, installed for local
intranet, the "respect to internalisation settings" would be fine.
However, I would see savannah not as a standa-alone program, but as a web
based service. Could you reconsider distributing the defualts set to use ISO
8601.
Jari
-------------------------------------------------------
Date: mar 14.12.2004 � 10:40 By: Mathieu Roy <yeupou>
Hello,
What is best for internationalization is to respect the user language
settings. That's how Savane works.
But, anyway, a specific installation can already be configured to use a
specific date format, see the $sys_date setting in
/etc/savannah/savannah.conf.pl
Regards,
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