Here is an example of how I use this feature:
1. Set up a position.
2. Start infinite analysis and let it run for a few minutes.
3. Study the history to see what move the engine thought was best at ply 10,
11, 12, 13, etc. See how it refines its "thinking" as the number of ply
increases. This helps the user learn more about the engine in use and where its
strengths may lie (it's ability to spot a particular move in 30 secs vs 190
secs is sometimes useful info. With 3.6.24 today, if I leave the machine and
return after 4 minutes, I don't know if the current "best move" displayed was
the same move it thought was best at earlier ply or not. The 3.6.23 way allows
you to see how quickly engine X can spot move Y without having to sit there and
watch the output -- just scroll back on the history to see the earliest that
engine found the key move.
To me, this is very useful info when trying to learn about different engines,
and it is not the same as setting the multivariation setting to display the top
4 moves (which also slows the time to reach a specific depth). Chessbase offers
this feature for sure in every engine it has shipped since Fritz 5.16 (if not
sooner -- that's as far back as I go with them). Lokasoft offers it -- in fact,
every single engine/GUI combination I have EVER used has this feature. It is
their default way of displaying engine thinking output.
I hope that helps clarify why I think it is a useful feature.
----- Original Message ----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:58:21 PM
Subject: Scid-users Digest, Vol 23, Issue 32
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Scid-users Digest, Vol 23, Issue 29 (Alexander Wagner)
2. R: Re: Scid-users Digest, Vol 23, Issue 29 (Giorgio Bellegotti)
3. Database for Scid (Pascal Georges)
4. Re: Database for Scid: CentriScid (Alexander Wagner)
-----Inline Message Follows-----
MessageHi!
If I remember correctly we had this discussion already once the new engine
dialog was introduced in cvs. If Roy did not use cvs (and I guess he did not)
then indeed the behaviour changed in 3.6.24 for the first time. It just took a
bit from 3.6.23 to 3.6.24. It was thought of as an improvement, therefore, Roy,
this could happen on upgrading. ;)
To the behaviour: my guess is that Roy has some usage for this history output,
otherwise he'd not have the wish to get it back. Obviously, he even considers
to exchange all the new features of 3.6.24 just to get it back and there was
something done between .23 and .24... (Acutally, I'd also guess that there must
be some usage for this output as otherwise no engine would waste the cpu-cycles
to display it...) Its not to argue about whether this is good wish or not, its
just a statement. Probably, Roy could give an example where he uses this
output. Just for us to better understand. Personally, I think it could be
valuable in case there are two lines that get pretty much the same evaluation,
ie. the two or three best lines alternate depending on the search depth eg. but
that's just a guess.
A way to solve this problem IMHO could come with Giorgios enhancements to the
analysis dialogue, and maybe there could be a way to show the evaluation
history upon request. Acutally, there's plenty of space if only one line of
analysis is displayed. one could imagine to show the mainline as it is done
right now, add a free line (ie. some space) to visually separate it clearly and
scroll the history below that. IMHO would give the advantages of both worlds. A
click on the history could make it invisible like the current analysis is
hidden by clicking within the window.
Concerning whether there is another application that offers this feature, hm
well, I see no reason to limit oneself to the abilities of other apps ;)
Just some thoughts, though.
----- original Nachricht --------
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Scid-users Digest, Vol 23, Issue 29
Gesendet: Mi, 25. Jun 2008
Von: Pascal Georges
Sorry, I made a confusion between various versions of Scid, and I thought the
engine output history was removed since a long time for UCI engine. And indeed
it is, as I find this kind of output (history) is confusing and of little use
(I am not aware of any chess app that displays full history).
Pascal
2008/6/25 Roy Brunjes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Pascal,
I disagree that this is a mis-configuration. Showing multiple PVs is one thing,
what I am asking for is entirely different. Please look closely at the example
again and I think you should see what I am asking for is NOT just setting
multiPV mode to 4 or something similar. MultiPV set to 4 slows down the search
as well which a single PV analysis with history enabled (to show the results of
each previous ply) does not.
Also, how can it be a misconiguration if it worked differently in 3.6.23 and no
changes were made to the configuration for 3.6.24? If there is no configuration
change, the behavior of the software should be the same -- at least that is
what most people expect with software upgrades in my experience.
Respectfully,
Roy
--- original Nachricht Ende ----
MessageHi!
If I remember correctly we had this discussion already once the new engine
dialog was introduced in cvs. If Roy did not use cvs (and I guess he did not)
then indeed the behaviour changed in 3.6.24 for the first time. It just took a
bit from 3.6.23 to 3.6.24. It was thought of as an improvement, therefore, Roy,
this could happen on upgrading. ;)
To the behaviour: my guess is that Roy has some usage for this history output,
otherwise he'd not have the wish to get it back. Obviously, he even considers
to exchange all the new features of 3.6.24 just to get it back and there was
something done between .23 and .24... (Acutally, I'd also guess that there must
be some usage for this output as otherwise no engine would waste the cpu-cycles
to display it...) Its not to argue about whether this is good wish or not, its
just a statement. Probably, Roy could give an example where he uses this
output. Just for us to better understand. Personally, I think it could be
valuable in case there are two lines that get pretty much the same evaluation,
ie. the two or three best lines alternate depending on the search depth eg. but
that's just a guess.
A way to solve this problem IMHO could come with Giorgios enhancements to the
analysis dialogue, and maybe there could be a way to show the evaluation
history upon request. Acutally, there's plenty of space if only one line of
analysis is displayed. one could imagine to show the mainline as it is done
right now, add a free line (ie. some space) to visually separate it clearly and
scroll the history below that. IMHO would give the advantages of both worlds. A
click on the history could make it invisible like the current analysis is
hidden by clicking within the window.
Concerning whether there is another application that offers this feature, hm
well, I see no reason to limit oneself to the abilities of other apps ;)
Just some thoughts, though.
----- original Nachricht --------
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Scid-users Digest, Vol 23, Issue 29
Gesendet: Mi, 25. Jun 2008
Von: Pascal Georges
Sorry, I made a confusion between various versions of Scid, and I thought the
engine output history was removed since a long time for UCI engine. And indeed
it is, as I find this kind of output (history) is confusing and of little use
(I am not aware of any chess app that displays full history).
Pascal
2008/6/25 Roy Brunjes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Pascal,
I disagree that this is a mis-configuration. Showing multiple PVs is one thing,
what I am asking for is entirely different. Please look closely at the example
again and I think you should see what I am asking for is NOT just setting
multiPV mode to 4 or something similar. MultiPV set to 4 slows down the search
as well which a single PV analysis with history enabled (to show the results of
each previous ply) does not.
Also, how can it be a misconiguration if it worked differently in 3.6.23 and no
changes were made to the configuration for 3.6.24? If there is no configuration
change, the behavior of the software should be the same -- at least that is
what most people expect with software upgrades in my experience.
Respectfully,
Roy
--- original Nachricht Ende ----
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
Hi,
To get a base for Scid that can be used for training (for example) and to keep
track of extra info, I think there is a workaround by mixing indexed flags and
PGN tags.
Each game can get one or several flags that are :
IDX_FLAG_START // Game has own start position.
IDX_FLAG_PROMO // Game contains promotion(s).
IDX_FLAG_UPROMO // Game contains promotion(s).
IDX_FLAG_DELETE // Game marked for deletion.
IDX_FLAG_WHITE_OP // White openings flag.
IDX_FLAG_BLACK_OP // Black openings flag.
IDX_FLAG_MIDDLEGAME // Middlegames flag.
IDX_FLAG_ENDGAME // Endgames flag.
IDX_FLAG_NOVELTY // Novelty flag.
IDX_FLAG_PAWN // Pawn structure flag.
IDX_FLAG_TACTICS // Tactics flag.
IDX_FLAG_KSIDE // Kingside play flag.
IDX_FLAG_QSIDE // Queenside play flag.
IDX_FLAG_BRILLIANCY // Brilliancy or good play.
IDX_FLAG_BLUNDER // Blunder or bad play.
IDX_FLAG_USER // User-defined flag.
So imagine you have a big (or small ... it also works) DB and want to keep
track of tactics. So each relevant game gets the flag
IDX_FLAG_TACTICS
and for example the PGN tag is appended :
FLAG_TACTICS_data "Removal of the guard/23/black/easy"
that is in order : type/move/side/difficulty
Searches in base are fast because the prefilter of indexed flags.
The data added to "tactics" should be defined once for all and part of Scid's
UI. That way when saving a game, we can add to the dialog box the options
needed to set a flag and its data.
The most interesting flags are (I think)
Middlegame
Endgame
Tactics
So for each category could someone list the necessary fields like, for the
tactics example :
Category Tactics :
type : pin, overburden, ... , undefined
move : the move number
side : white or black
difficulty : very easy, easy, medium, difficult, very difficult, undefined
solved : solved or unsolved
comment : free text
Pascal
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