Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Niki Kovacs]

Toby Bluhm a écrit :



I put myself into the keep as is category.




Given the popularity of this thread, I suggest creating a 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] list, where folks can discuss list-related stuff.


"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one frequently goes ranting on and on 
at ball-breaking length." (Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus 
Logico-Philosophicus, first draft)


:o)

Niki

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RE: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Sorin Srbu]

Craig White <> scribbled on Thursday, October 16, 2008 4:24 PM:

> If you are going to go to multiple lists, might I suggest that you have
> 1 system-admins list and 1 general-users list and you can tightly
> control the system-admins list.

I think you're on to something here. I assume you mean the general-users list
would have a higher roof, correct?

/S


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Re: [CentOS] Problems with firstboot in CentOS 5

[Alfred von Campe]

The easy way to do this would be to open an issue report at  
bugs.centos.org/ and someone can work with you to verify the bug  
exists.


Done: http://bugs.centos.org/view.php?id=3200

Thanks,
Alfred

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[CentOS] new list proposal

[R P Herrold]

On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, John R Pierce wrote:

I'd have to suggest that the 'default' list (eg this one) should be the most 
general and beginner oriented, and any new additional lists should be the 
ones with the narrower focus (centos-tech, for instance, or centos-sysadmin).


in my experience with running multiple lists,  unless there's a near-nazi


Godwin's law declared on the thread

-- Russ herrold
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Christopher Chan]

John R Pierce wrote:
I'd have to suggest that the 'default' list (eg this one) should be the 
most general and beginner oriented, and any new additional lists should 
be the ones with the narrower focus (centos-tech, for instance, or 
centos-sysadmin).


Narrower focus? Why? Why should there not be a general advanced user 
oriented list which seems to be one of the reasons why people holler OT 
here!




in my experience with running multiple lists,  unless there's a 
near-nazi level of 'DO NOT CROSSPOST' enforcement, half the traffic will 
get crossposted all over the place anyways when you split lists.


I vote leave it alone.  it ain't broken, lets not 'fix' it.



It is not about 'fixing' it...it is about letting people discuss things 
that are considered OT for the centos list but yet related to people who 
use Centos in whatever environment they may be.

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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[John R Pierce]

I'd have to suggest that the 'default' list (eg this one) should be the 
most general and beginner oriented, and any new additional lists should 
be the ones with the narrower focus (centos-tech, for instance, or 
centos-sysadmin).


in my experience with running multiple lists,  unless there's a 
near-nazi level of 'DO NOT CROSSPOST' enforcement, half the traffic will 
get crossposted all over the place anyways when you split lists.


I vote leave it alone.  it ain't broken, lets not 'fix' it.




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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Christopher Chan]

Karanbir Singh wrote:

Christopher Chan wrote:

- technologies
- best practices
- deployment strategies and tools
- management strategies and tools


I don't know whether that will take off...has not it been tried 
outside centos.org by centos list members already?


Not that I am aware of. But its worth a try here in .centos.org ( or so 
I feel anyway ). What we do or dont do will ultimately be based on what 
everyone feels about it.


Sometime when Bryan Smith was still about...setup by a Brazilian IIRC. 
But whatever. Like John Hinton says: Cut us loose.




And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further 
encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' 
list.

They sound like 'general' stuff that lot.


yes, a lot more generic than something that is distro specific.


Okay, I think quite a few here would want a 'anything goes' list then.




How about a centos-help list instead?


I am not sure if that would work, its been tried many times and always 
fails back to the fact that everyone who posts to a list, has an issue 
they need help with.


Okay, let's have an 'anything goes' list whatever it is called.
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Re: [CentOS] Re: Centos 5 and Driver Disks

[Clint Dilks]

I get a 404 on the url in the OP's post, but if someone has a url to 
the driver disk in question, I can try and look at what the issue 
might be




Hi

http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_103_13121.shtm

Or go to http://www.scms.waikato.ac.nz/~clintd/R905/ just to get the 
files I obtained from Dell.


On closer reading of the instructions I see that the say to use a USB 
CD/ DVD drive anyway so I am confused as to what the point of the driver 
disk really is.


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Re: [CentOS] Re: Missing something about sendmail

[Paul R. Ganci]

Scott Silva wrote:

It is probably ignoring your # as a comment delimiter. So it is picking up #
xsmtp02.mail2web.com as part of the error text
Yes this was exactly the problem. I had completely forgotten about the 
comment restriction until Kai Schaetzl pointed it out to me earlier in 
the morning. Little did I realize the harm I was causing ... how ironic 
a "whitelist" actually became a "blacklist". In any event the problem is 
fixed now. Many thanks.


--
Paul ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Clint Dilks]

To be honest, I don't think this list should be split.  Instead it
should be more rigorously policed.  This should be a list about CentOS,
and working with CentOS.

  


Hi

Rigorous policing in this context is counter productive. Specifically in 
three areas


1. The person or group enforcing the rules will find that in a short 
space of time that it is emotionally draining to always be seen as the 
enforcer of the rules. And these people are already doing a lot of 
volunteer work.


2. The person making the request may in future have a legitimate topic 
for discussion / assistance and not post simply because of the previous


3. The list has to watch / record all this "telling off"


I guess what is beginning to bug me is that a number of people seem to 
be saying just police the list better and it will be fine. But I don't 
see most of these people volunteering to be active member of this police 
force.


Personally I have loved the fact that with this list as long as you are 
seen to have put some thought / effort into a question or issue you get 
helpful responses or at least responses that make you think. And because 
of this I have been guilty of bringing up some topics of discussion that 
are probably way off topic. That being said I can understand why people 
don't want to deal with the "extra" stuff. So lets create the alternate 
list so that all the people who see value in these "off topic 
discussion" can have them without imposing it on the others


And I hope that once this is in place we use persuasion and positive 
re-enforcement to encourage the lists to be used as intended. If we have 
a set of rules that we religiously enforce then both lists are doomed to 
fail as more effort will go into this enforcement than into providing 
useful information to people.

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Re: [CentOS] Problems with firstboot in CentOS 5

[Karanbir Singh]

Alfred von Campe wrote:
Has anyone seen these issues?  Is anybody using firstboot (or care about 
it)?  If there is there a better forum where I can go for firstboot 
questions, please let me know.  Ideally, I would like the upstream 
provider to acknowledge this issue and include a fix in the next update 
release, but how can I best make that happen?


The easy way to do this would be to open an issue report at 
bugs.centos.org/ and someone can work with you to verify the bug exists. 
if it does then we can push it upstream. They are quite accepting of 
issues that come via some sort of a verification process ( they even 
have a direct link to the centos issue tracker! )


--
Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/  : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal - meaningless

[Spiro Harvey]

> Really? What about SLED (Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop) or
> Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop? 

Marketing terms for IT managers and non-technical decision makers.



-- 
Spiro Harvey  Knossos Networks Ltd
021-295-1923www.knossos.net.nz



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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Spike Turner]

Ralph Angenendt wrote:

> > Out of curiosity which major linux distro operates
> > a fragmented mailing list such as the one proposed?
> 
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo
> http://lists.debian.org/completeindex.html
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/
> https://ml.mandriva.net/wws/lists
> 
> Compared to those CentOS really has few lists.
> 

So the need for a new list is to compete with the big 
boys rather than improving the CentOS community? Those
are full-flavoured distros with hundreds of thousands
if not millions of users. Last time I checked the
average Fedora user would not need more than the
fedora-list and the un-fragmented fedora forum.

See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate and tell
me which of the many lists at redhat a typical user 
needs? Even something as global as fedora has not
considered such a liberal idea as that proposed.

Spike.


  

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Re: [CentOS] Re: help required

[Brett Serkez]

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 5:51 PM, John Hinton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Scott Silva wrote:
> If you do wish to have two equally accessible mailservers, users will need
> to be replicated.

I was thinking LDAP would be better than raw passwd files.  LDAP can
be configured on the secondary mail server to keep users in sync with
the primary for instant availability.

Brett
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Frode Petersen]

Karanbir Singh:

Morten Torstensen wrote:
I think the general CentOS list should be an open and embracing 
community. A centos-tech list sounds more like the name of the 
"developer" or "power user" list than a semi-off-topic technology 
discussion group. That was my first thought when seeing the new name.


What would you recommend as an alternative name for the list ? And it 
wont be 'offtopic' technology chatter, it will be very much ontopic 
there :D


Why not just swap the names?
Centos-tech: Technical questions about the CentOS specific stuff
Centos-discuss: All other discussions

Frode Petersen
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal - meaningless

[Spike Turner]

Spiro Harvey wrote:

> well, if they're running Gnome, then they're
> probably not using the
> machine in an "enterprise" capacity. nobody in
> their right mind would
> install X on a server.
> 

Really? What about SLED (Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop) or
Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop? Read something like 
http://blogs.computerworld.com/which_linux_makes_the_best_business_windows_replacement_desktop

When you hear of Linux migration what do you think that
encompasses? Moving from IIS to LAMP?

Spike.


  

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Re: [CentOS] Problems with firstboot in CentOS 5

[Alfred von Campe]

Yesterday I wrote:

I'm trying to customize the firstboot process in CentOS 5 and have  
come across a few issues that are driving me nuts.  I'm sure they  
are all upstream issues, but I don't have a RHEL 5 system to verify  
them.  I had these customizations working in CentOS 4, but things  
that used to work then don't work now.


The main problem is that you can't validate user input.  This  
problem can be easily seen in the firstboot "Create User" module.   
If you are in this screen, deliberately enter mismatched  
passwords.  You will get a warning that the passwords do not match,  
but when you click OK to dismiss the warning you are taken to the  
next screen.  In CentOS 4, firstboot would stay at the current  
screen until all user input had been validated.  If you look at the  
underlying Python code, when you returned "None" from the apply  
method it would not exit the module in CentOS 4, but it does in  
CentOS 5.


I also can't get the firstboot Display module to load.  It ships  
with "skipme = True", but setting it to false or removing that line  
altogether does not show the module.  It appears to me that there a  
lots of issues with firstboot in CentOS 5.  Actually, in my  
environment (~40 desktops), CentOS 5 has been far less stable than  
CentOS 4 (mostly Gnome issues with Terminal windows crashing and  
window "flickering").  I've reported some of these issues before on  
this list.  My servers seem to be rock stable, though.


Anyway, for now I will have to live with these issues.  Can I  
report these issues in the Red Hat bugzilla database or do I need  
to be a RHN subscriber to report bugs against RHEL5?  I suspect  
(but have not verified) that these issues have been addressed in  
Fedora already.


Has anyone seen these issues?  Is anybody using firstboot (or care  
about it)?  If there is there a better forum where I can go for  
firstboot questions, please let me know.  Ideally, I would like the  
upstream provider to acknowledge this issue and include a fix in the  
next update release, but how can I best make that happen?


Alfred

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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Ross Walker]

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 4:44 PM, John Hinton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Karanbir Singh wrote:
>>
>> MHR wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you - for listening, participating, discussing and making the
>>> right choice.
>>
>> At the moment, its more a case of a 'failure to communicate' in my
>> opinion. Lets see how it pans out. There are still some really good ideas in
>> this thread, most worth looking at.
>>
>> - KB
>
> I certainly hope this idea doesn't go into the trash bin. Basically, as a
> sysadmin, this list is like a 10 to 1 noise to signal ratio for me. Today...
> Firefox crashes. I don't run Firefox on any of my CentOS machines, nor any
> GUI. The bulk of the posts seem to regard something that is more desktop
> related. Please understand this is not a negative as this is one fantastic
> service to those working with CentOS. All good, 'including' the Firefox
> thread. That's just today's top 10, 15, or 20 emails I'll get that I just
> have to delete. Oddly though, I normally at least look at the Firefox stuff
> to see if there is anything I need to know about.

What about the sysadmin that needs to support CentOS desktops?

> But there is a big difference with getting CentOS to run, bugs or perceived
> bugs in CentOS, dealing with various hardware issues versus discussions of
> best practices for running CentOS or actually, for me, creating a robust
> system for the public side.

Sometimes best practices = creating a robust system for the public side

> I simply do not understand the closed mind attitudes of creating a second
> list. If it does not pertain to you, don't sign up for it. But for me,
> almost everyday, I'm doing a shift select delete of the entire CentOS list
> simply because I don't have time to sort through the bulk that is not
> pertinent to me. I actually feel bad for doing this because I am rarely
> contributing.

I don't think it's as closed minded as current list members don't feel a real
need to have a second list. Just as much harm can be had by spreading
things too thin. Say you have 3 lists, but majority of helpful contributors
collect in 1 of the 3, which list do you think will get the most traffic, and
more infuriating the most OT traffic.

> Linux distros have changed dramatically over the last ten years. It's simply
> not as easy as it used to be to get everything to work happily together.
> There is more of a need now than ever to have best practices especially for
> public facing servers. Often times there is a fine line between whether it
> is a CentOS issue, if it is any package provided within CentOS or a case
> where one needs to go to the provider of the software from which that
> package is created. Maybe I'm the only one here, but I find it difficult
> many times to get good help within the lists of those software providers,
> which can often times be a perfectly fantastic cure, but not one that works
> well within the constraints of CentOS. (I like those constraints, most of
> the time).
>
> This list has been very forgiving with regards to almost anything in a very
> broad range. But, it at the same time has become unwieldy as it's size has
> grown... a success story that is appreciated.
>
> Yet, I cannot understand why some would be yelling fowl, which in essence is
> hurting my ability to get and provide help in the specific areas where I
> have expertise, with the creation of this proposed other email list.
>
> Cut us loose... Lets get into a complete and total discussion of best
> practices and best software to be used for anti-spam technology layered on
> top of a CentOS mailserver. Now that's a thread I don't think this general
> list would appreciate nor tolerate for more than a few hours.

Any topic on the list goes, just as long as the software is included within
the CentOS distribution.

This is CentOS-Users, the general list for all CentOS users.

-Ross
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[CentOS] Re: Centos 5 and Driver Disks

[Scott Silva]

on 10-16-2008 2:22 PM Karanbir Singh spake the following:
> Scott Silva wrote:
>> It should work in theory. But if the driver disk is for RedHat 5u1, it
>> probably won't work with CentOS 5.2, as the install media will have a
>> different kernel. The driver disk only patches the running installer
>> kernel AFAIR.
> 
> I get a 404 on the url in the OP's post, but if someone has a url to the
> driver disk in question, I can try and look at what the issue might be
> 
> 
I don't know, but a visit to the Dell support page for the PowerEdge R905
doesn't yield a driver disk that I can find, and I don't see anything on
linux.dell.com either.



-- 
MailScanner is like deodorant...
You hope everybody uses it, and
you notice quickly if they don't



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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Bill Campbell]

On Fri, Oct 17, 2008, Spiro Harvey wrote:
>> > Given the overall poor reception of the idea, I'd just put it on
>> > the back burner for now...
>> yes, thats sounding like a good idea for the time being.
>
>I don't think it is a good idea. I think that we need two separate
>lists. One for general users, one for server sysadmins.
>
>What we don't know from all the people against splitting the
>list is in what capacity they are using CentOS. Are they desktop users?
>Are they running their own home network? Are they small-time sysadmins?
>Are they managing a Tier 1 ISP?

I am against splitting, and support a fairly large number of machines here,
and at our customer sites.  Our customers range from small businesses with
fewer than a single Linux box and fewer than a dozen users to regional ISPs
with thousands of clients.

I subscribe to about 30 Mailman lists based on the number of monthly
reminder notices sitting in my postmaster mail folder here, and we host a
small number of Mailman lists as well.

I answer more questions on lists like this than I ask, and have been doing
similar e-mail and usenet stuff since the mid '80s when I was a
co-moderator on several COMPUSERVE *nix related lists.

FWIW, I have been supporting, integrating, and adminstering *nix systems
for 26 years, and Linux systems since 1995 or so starting with Caldera,
then SuSE, and now CentOS with a smattering of other Linux systems,
FreeBSD, etc. just to make life interesting.

As I said before, I scan the subjects of new threaded messages looking for
things that look interesting, deleting far more than I read (hint to
newbies -- make subjects meaninful, not just ``help'').

Bill
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal - meaningless

[Frank Cox]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:48:31 +1300
Spiro Harvey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> well, if they're running Gnome, then they're probably not using the
> machine in an "enterprise" capacity. nobody in their right mind would
> install X on a server.

*blink*  I run a couple of Centos 5 application servers with several LTSP thin
clients that are used to create several papers, from database management to
creating plates for the press.

The folks there "live" on Gnome.

-- 
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Frank Cox]

On Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:44:00 -0400
John Hinton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The bulk of the posts seem to regard something 
> that is more desktop related. Please understand this is not a negative 
> as this is one fantastic service to those working with CentOS. All good, 

The reason for this is because there are more and more "Fedora refugees"
setting up desktops and everything else using something that they are
relatively familiar with (Centos) that doesn't have Fedora's churn and short
shelf life.

Centos-on-the-desktop seems like a logical answer and, in fact, folks on the
Fedora list (including me) recommend Centos on a regular basis for just that
purpose and reason.

Ultimately, I suspect there will be more Centos-on-the-desktop questions and
discussions in the future which should be welcomed, hosted and accepted
-somewhere-.  If that place is not right here, then a place should be created.

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Re: [CentOS] Re: help required

[John Hinton]

Scott Silva wrote:



2) i would like to also know about MX records

i mean DNS server having MX with same priority n MX with different priority

i right now have a primary n secondary mail server that is dns server with
different MX records and its workin fine

if i have 2 servers with same MX priority do i need to create the same
users on both my centos servers so tht if one server fails othe one is
operational . i do presume the above is correct or is there any other way



You usually have your backup MX just hold the mail and forward it to the
primary when it comes back up. To have a second server become operational if
the first fails is not just about backups, it is about HA (high availability).
There is more info on HA on the Linux HA website
http://www.linux-ha.org/
  
There's a nice milter for sendmail called milter-ahead. This works great 
on a backup mailserver as it will look 'ahead' to the primary and if it 
is up, it will not accept the email. This might sound silly at first, 
but if you don't do it this way, you'll find a huge queue of spam to 
nonexistant users on the backup server which can't be returned to the 
bad addresses spammers use... or you wind up bouncing spam to those that 
did not send it... a horrid situation.


I'm not understanding your using the same MX priority settings, as there 
is not really a default server. Mail winds up split between both places 
instead of hitting the primary first. Spammers however will find your 
backup server and send directly to it, in order to try to circumvent 
rejects from the primary and create bounces out of the secondary. This 
situation is almost as bad as having an open relay. You can land 
yourself on a lot of blacklists quickly and become a part of the spam 
problem easily.


If you do wish to have two equally accessible mailservers, users will 
need to be replicated. Clustering or something like Xen could be a 
better option.


Best,
John Hinton
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Spiro Harvey]

> > Given the overall poor reception of the idea, I'd just put it on
> > the back burner for now...
> yes, thats sounding like a good idea for the time being.

I don't think it is a good idea. I think that we need two separate
lists. One for general users, one for server sysadmins.

What we don't know from all the people against splitting the
list is in what capacity they are using CentOS. Are they desktop users?
Are they running their own home network? Are they small-time sysadmins?
Are they managing a Tier 1 ISP?

I would hazard a guess and say that most of the people who are
pro-split are people managing bigger networks, and possibly have more
experience with linux/unix. I am certainly in this category and I would
like to see a new list on the basis that I don't care about typical
general chatter or "newbie" problems. 

It's also my experience that if you ask people what they want, they
will be reluctant to change, just on principle. Make the change for
them and they'll adapt (albeit after a bit of whining).

Perhaps another idea would be to have a sysadmin list that is actually
moderated. But I think you should split the lists if you want to. It's
not a democracy, as has been mentioned. This is your sandpit. 

-- 
Spiro Harvey  Knossos Networks Ltd
021-295-1923www.knossos.net.nz



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[CentOS] Re: help required

[Scott Silva]

on 10-16-2008 2:03 PM fabian dacunha spake the following:
> Dear ALl,
> 
> I have the following live setup .
> Centos 5.1 running as a Mail and DNS server with the following software
> 
> Sendmail ver
> MailScanner ver
> squirrel mail
> clam av
> spamassassin
> mailwatch
> 
> we have about 250 mail users all with no shell and every thing is working
> perfectly fine
> 
> now i wd like  to know the following .
> 
> 1) if i have a copy of my /etc/passwd file and the /etc/skel/shadow file
> and if my current HDD crashes ..
> now if i make a new centos server with all the above software and jus copy
> the password n shadow file in the right directories will all the users
> able to login into the system as before.
> or is anything more required to be done.
> To explain more clearly if my current hdd crashes i can get up a new
> centos machine but creating all the 250 + users wd be a big problem
> specially the passwords.
It would also depend on how you backed up the system. In absence of a valid
passwd file, the files only have UID and GID numbers to identify them. If you
preserve this info in your backups, and also your passwd, shadow, group, and
gshadow files, you could hobble something together. But there are many other
things you need backed up.
> 
> 2) i would like to also know about MX records
> 
> i mean DNS server having MX with same priority n MX with different priority
> 
> i right now have a primary n secondary mail server that is dns server with
> different MX records and its workin fine
> 
> if i have 2 servers with same MX priority do i need to create the same
> users on both my centos servers so tht if one server fails othe one is
> operational . i do presume the above is correct or is there any other way
> 
You usually have your backup MX just hold the mail and forward it to the
primary when it comes back up. To have a second server become operational if
the first fails is not just about backups, it is about HA (high availability).
There is more info on HA on the Linux HA website
http://www.linux-ha.org/

> 
> apprecite your help
> 
No worries!


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Re: [CentOS] help required

[Fabian Arrotin]

fabian dacunha wrote:

Dear ALl,


1) if i have a copy of my /etc/passwd file and the /etc/skel/shadow file
and if my current HDD crashes ..

yes, you just need the /etc/passwd , /etc/shadow , /etc/group and 
/etc/gshadow for the local auth
Of course, in case of setting up a new box and integrating user 
accounts, i'd prefer doing some cleaning in those files before importing 
them (through vipw for for the passwd file) : i mean remove the system 
accounts first




2) i would like to also know about MX records

i mean DNS server having MX with same priority n MX with different priority

i right now have a primary n secondary mail server that is dns server with
different MX records and its workin fine

if i have 2 servers with same MX priority do i need to create the smae
users on both my centos servers so tht if one server fails othe one is
operational . i do presume the above is corect or is there any other way


It depends : you can for example just have the second MX record doing 
queue only for your domain and then deliver to the primary MX when he's 
back online ... otherwise if you deliver mail locally on your secondary 
MX server, that means two mail storages (and not in sync )



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Re: [CentOS] Re: Centos 5 and Driver Disks

[Karanbir Singh]

Scott Silva wrote:

It should work in theory. But if the driver disk is for RedHat 5u1, it
probably won't work with CentOS 5.2, as the install media will have a
different kernel. The driver disk only patches the running installer kernel 
AFAIR.


I get a 404 on the url in the OP's post, but if someone has a url to the driver 
disk in question, I can try and look at what the issue might be



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[CentOS] Re: new list proposal - meaningless

[Scott Silva]

on 10-16-2008 1:48 PM Spiro Harvey spake the following:
>> A driveby waste of space post was one by a certain Karanbir
>> telling someone to recklessly upgrade Gnome when this is supposed
>> to be an enterprise distro.
> 
> well, if they're running Gnome, then they're probably not using the
> machine in an "enterprise" capacity. nobody in their right mind would
> install X on a server.
> 
There are also "Enterprise" desktops. Systems that are desired to be stable
over the life of the equipment, but still running X for whatever software it
requires.



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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal - meaningless

[Spiro Harvey]

> A driveby waste of space post was one by a certain Karanbir
> telling someone to recklessly upgrade Gnome when this is supposed
> to be an enterprise distro.

well, if they're running Gnome, then they're probably not using the
machine in an "enterprise" capacity. nobody in their right mind would
install X on a server.


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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[John Hinton]

Karanbir Singh wrote:

MHR wrote:

Thank you - for listening, participating, discussing and making the
right choice.


At the moment, its more a case of a 'failure to communicate' in my 
opinion. Lets see how it pans out. There are still some really good 
ideas in this thread, most worth looking at.


- KB
I certainly hope this idea doesn't go into the trash bin. Basically, as 
a sysadmin, this list is like a 10 to 1 noise to signal ratio for me. 
Today... Firefox crashes. I don't run Firefox on any of my CentOS 
machines, nor any GUI. The bulk of the posts seem to regard something 
that is more desktop related. Please understand this is not a negative 
as this is one fantastic service to those working with CentOS. All good, 
'including' the Firefox thread. That's just today's top 10, 15, or 20 
emails I'll get that I just have to delete. Oddly though, I normally at 
least look at the Firefox stuff to see if there is anything I need to 
know about.


But there is a big difference with getting CentOS to run, bugs or 
perceived bugs in CentOS, dealing with various hardware issues versus 
discussions of best practices for running CentOS or actually, for me, 
creating a robust system for the public side.


I simply do not understand the closed mind attitudes of creating a 
second list. If it does not pertain to you, don't sign up for it. But 
for me, almost everyday, I'm doing a shift select delete of the entire 
CentOS list simply because I don't have time to sort through the bulk 
that is not pertinent to me. I actually feel bad for doing this because 
I am rarely contributing.


Linux distros have changed dramatically over the last ten years. It's 
simply not as easy as it used to be to get everything to work happily 
together. There is more of a need now than ever to have best practices 
especially for public facing servers. Often times there is a fine line 
between whether it is a CentOS issue, if it is any package provided 
within CentOS or a case where one needs to go to the provider of the 
software from which that package is created. Maybe I'm the only one 
here, but I find it difficult many times to get good help within the 
lists of those software providers, which can often times be a perfectly 
fantastic cure, but not one that works well within the constraints of 
CentOS. (I like those constraints, most of the time).


This list has been very forgiving with regards to almost anything in a 
very broad range. But, it at the same time has become unwieldy as it's 
size has grown... a success story that is appreciated.


Yet, I cannot understand why some would be yelling fowl, which in 
essence is hurting my ability to get and provide help in the specific 
areas where I have expertise, with the creation of this proposed other 
email list.


Cut us loose... Lets get into a complete and total discussion of best 
practices and best software to be used for anti-spam technology layered 
on top of a CentOS mailserver. Now that's a thread I don't think this 
general list would appreciate nor tolerate for more than a few hours.


Best,
John Hinton
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[CentOS] help required

[fabian dacunha]

Dear ALl,

I have the following live setup .
Centos 5.1 running as a Mail and DNS server with the following software

Sendmail ver
MailScanner ver
squirrel mail
clam av
spamassassin
mailwatch

we have about 250 mail users all with no shell and every thing is working
perfectly fine

now i wd like  to know the following .

1) if i have a copy of my /etc/passwd file and the /etc/skel/shadow file
and if my current HDD crashes ..
now if i make a new centos server with all the above software and jus copy
the password n shadow file in the right directories will all the users
able to login into the system as before.
or is anything more required to be done.
To explain more clearly if my current hdd crashes i can get up a new
centos machine but creating all the 250 + users wd be a big problem
specially the passwords.

2) i would like to also know about MX records

i mean DNS server having MX with same priority n MX with different priority

i right now have a primary n secondary mail server that is dns server with
different MX records and its workin fine

if i have 2 servers with same MX priority do i need to create the smae
users on both my centos servers so tht if one server fails othe one is
operational . i do presume the above is corect or is there any other way


apprecite your help


regards

Fabian












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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Spiro Harvey]

> I also note that moderation comes in 2 forms...the first being when
> one of the CentOS developers says stop this thread which is irregular,

and you'll also notice that this never works. the thread typically
degenerates into the yay-sayers and the nay-sayers, which actually
produces *more* noise.

This is not moderation. No threads are ever deleted or locked, even if
it were possible.

But instead of filling the list with lots of "please read the f'n
rules" followed by "polite" responses, if the lists were split into two
distinct categories -- one for general help, one for more technical
problems -- then this would cut down the overall noise because posters
would have a better understanding of what each list was for and could
target their queries more appropriately. In a general help list
tangential problems would then be appropriate so the "moderation"
wouldn't exist, or at least, not be as heavy handed.

-- 
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021-295-1923www.knossos.net.nz



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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Spiro Harvey]

> What would you recommend as an alternative name for the list ? And it 
> wont be 'offtopic' technology chatter, it will be very much ontopic
> there :D

centos-sysadmin?


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Re: OT: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Robert]

James B. Byrne wrote:



I too, see little problem with the current signal to noise ratio. 
Compared to some tech lists I subscribe too this one is pretty much always

on the topic of some aspect of using CentOS effective and efficiently.
  



I agree.  There are times when stuff that obviously has no place on this 
list appears but in almost every case it is gone within a short time if 
allowed to die a natural death.  It seems to me that the most 
irritating, least useful content is usually threads like this one, 
started in an effort to overhaul something that only needs a tuneup.


Perhaps a periodic broadcast of succinctly stated policies on acceptable 
topics, prior research, lucidity of questions, etc., ending with a 
suggestion that the OT stuff be silently ignored *on-list* would be 
enough to restore this list to showcase it once was.



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Re: [CentOS] Re: central patch list

[Mark Belanger]

Scott Silva wrote:

on 10-16-2008 9:49 AM Mark Belanger spake the following:

Is there a list somewhere of available updates for a
given CentOS release?  Something like this:
https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/rhel4ws-errata.html

Ideally I would like a something like:
Bug DescriptionLink to update
kernel blah,etchttp://some.rpm.com/.rpm

-Mark

Shouldn't the CentOS patches follow the RedHat patch list?
They may be behind by a few days when the number of patches is large, but the
announce list seems to parallel the RedHat list.


Probably but it's just a bit klunky to tranlate RH patches into
CentOS announce list and finally into a patch location.

-Mark

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Re: [CentOS] DHCP static hosts and subnet configuration

[Marcus Moeller]

>>This I am not sure can be done with dhcpd. However you can specify NIC to
>> fixed static addys and the nic harware address in the dhcp.conf file.
>
>>How does that work?
>
> JohnStanley Writes:
> This is what I am talking about at the end of the ".conf" file below. That
> is what you are trying or wantting to accomplish?  This is actualy a
> confiuration I use. In all respect I have a question for you Are you
> wantting to try this solution because you cant access another subnet? If now
> you are then you need to have a look at your routing tables in your routers
> or vlan configuration on your switches. That's just question or two I could
> be wrong.

Dear John.

This is definitely not what I am trying to do. I try to line out the
setup again:

Subnet A (192.168.2.x) <-> DHCP Server with 2 NICs <-> Subnet B (10.1.0.0)

Clients on Subnet A should get a static IP from the host declaration.
Clients on Subnet B should obtain dynamic IP addresses from a range.

The two subnets are not physically connected but a Client should be
able to connect to Subnet A or to Subnet B as well.

Best Regards
Marcus
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[CentOS] Re: central patch list

[Scott Silva]

on 10-16-2008 9:49 AM Mark Belanger spake the following:
> Is there a list somewhere of available updates for a
> given CentOS release?  Something like this:
> https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/rhel4ws-errata.html
> 
> Ideally I would like a something like:
> Bug DescriptionLink to update
> kernel blah,etchttp://some.rpm.com/.rpm
> 
> -Mark
Shouldn't the CentOS patches follow the RedHat patch list?
They may be behind by a few days when the number of patches is large, but the
announce list seems to parallel the RedHat list.

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[CentOS] Re: Missing something about sendmail

[Scott Silva]

on 10-16-2008 12:56 AM Paul R. Ganci spake the following:
> Christopher Chan wrote:
>>> I have a strange problem that I don't understand. I have an access
>>> file which has the following line:
>> Did you run makemap? Does the db file contain the same stuff as the
>> text file?
> Yes. The output of
> 
> makemap -u hash access.db >access_dump
> 
> shows
> 
> 168.144.250.215 OK # xsmtp02.mail2web.com
> 
> It is there.
> 
> After a lot of research I realized I am using two features that muck
> with the check_relay ruleset. The DCC hackmc script to make DCC
> understand about whitelisting from the access database and
> FEATURE(`require_rdns2',`forgedignore')dnl which requires the relay to
> have a rDNS. This changes the usual check_relay code albeit I haven't
> figured out how it can generate a 553 error code along with an OK.
> 
It is probably ignoring your # as a comment delimiter. So it is picking up #
xsmtp02.mail2web.com as part of the error text.
Try to have the comment on a line by itself, maybe directly above the ip 
address.


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[CentOS] Re: Centos 5 and Driver Disks

[Scott Silva]

on 10-15-2008 7:33 PM Clint Dilks spake the following:
> Hi,
> 
> I am trying to install CentOS 5.2 on a Dell PowerEdge R905, and a
> problem that you run into is that the DVD Drive on the system is not
> recognized by the kernel.
> I have done some searching on the web and found
> http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_103_13121.shtm and obtained the driver
> disk that it mentions. Having followed the instructions I can see and
> select the driver disk image but the install thinks there are no
> appropriate drivers in the image.
> 
> Can someone please confirm or deny that I should be able to use a Red
> Hat Enterprise Linux 5 Driver with CentOS 5 without issue ?
> 
> It isn't a big deal as I will try a Network based install or use a USB
> DVD drive but I just want to confirm if using a RHEL 5 Driver Disk
> should work :)
> 
> Thanks, and have a nice day
It should work in theory. But if the driver disk is for RedHat 5u1, it
probably won't work with CentOS 5.2, as the install media will have a
different kernel. The driver disk only patches the running installer kernel 
AFAIR.



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[CentOS] Re: new list proposal

[Scott Silva]

on 10-16-2008 3:08 AM William L. Maltby spake the following:
> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 22:54 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
>> Karanbir Singh wrote:
>>> And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage 
>>> such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
>> Also, all comments are welcome!
>>
>> If there is a general feeling that this would help, then we will go 
>> ahead and setup the new list in the next few days.
> 
> I think this is not a good solution. I've read all the other posts in
> this thread and there are a lot of good points. But...
> 
> Since I've been on the list, it has *always* appeared to me to be not
> CentOS-specific. It rather appears to be mostly admin-centric. Both
> experienced and inexperienced users have posted, been helped, helped
> others. It has been, fortunately, mostly related to CentOS in that the
> posters are trying to do something on CentOS, not BSD, UNIX,  It
> should, of course, remain so. Nevertheless, the primary focus seems
> towards administration, not CentOS.
> 
> The "enforcement" of "CentOSicity" has been sporadic and arbitrary. The
> "sporadic" part has allowed this to become a very informative, usually
> friendly and productive tool. It reflects, IMO, the nature of its
> constituency.
> 
> The "arbitrary" part has raised my hackles, even though I'm not the
> target (usually). "Got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning"
> usually crosses my mind.
> 
> My feeling is that what has been generally tolerated on the list should
> continue: help with mail setup, wifi doesn't work, recommend  your hardware here>, php, browser problems, raid, file systems, ... you
> can see that very little is CentOS. But usually it is at least on a
> CentOS system.
> 
> Because CentOS "just works" for so many, this list would really have
> very few posts that are on topic: upgrade 4.x->5.x broke my system (read
> the archives, that's not recommended), I can't get my wifi to work on
> 5.x (that hardware is too new - go get the driver from...), etc.
> 
> A great number of these would be administration problems, not CentOS
> problems, and also would spawn tangential threads. They would then be
> referred to the new list, which would now look like this one used to
> look. Cross postings would begin to occur as many topics would be
> difficult to initially categorize. Is it a CentOS problem or a wetware
> problem?
> 
> My recommendation is that this list continue as it has, with the
> exception of the arbitrary enforcement of "CentOSicity". This should be
> either consistently enforced, reducing the utility and population of
> this list, or only enforced that you must be using/administering/setting
> up... a CentOS system.
> 
> This will acknowledge the nature of an "enterprise class" user, continue
> to support the growth of CentOS, aid the user in innumerable ways, ...
> 
> For those who want a much narrower scope of topics, start lists for
> them. From the day I first subscribed, the reality has been that this
> list has been:
> 
> - technologies
> - best practices
> - deployment strategies and tools
> - management strategies and tools
> 
> to quote you, along with the other things I've mentioned. Local filters,
> , etc. can handle the chores for those that want a very narrow
> view.
> 
> MHO
I have to second that. If people get to the one on one point that I see soo
often, they really should be taking it off-list anyway.. IE .. If two men have
a disagreement at a pub, they should go "outside". If others want to "watch"
they can go off list with them and the combatants can "reply-all" and keep the
thread going as long as they wish.

The back and forth "sword fighting" on list just gets the admins involved, and
starts another fight somewhere else. If the admins are spanking the list
members, they have less of their sparse time left for other things that they
might have been getting done or trying to get done.

Now I am done, and off this thread


If any body wants a piece of me, lets go outside!!!   ;-D





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Re: [CentOS] m4v

[Ralph Angenendt]

Ross Walker wrote:
> Livna is a repo based on delivering codecs for commercial multimedia.

Livna has no CentOS support. 

Ralph

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Re: [CentOS] m4v

[Ross Walker]

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 3:01 PM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I run 5.2, how do I play m4v videos? I am not trying to remove any
> DRM, only to view some Internet videos such as Lightroom killer tips:
>
> (http://www.lightroomkillertips.com/videos/download.php?file=lightroom_foldersanddrives.m4v)
>
> uses m4v files.
>
> Any suggestion?

Livna is a repo based on delivering codecs for commercial multimedia.

DVD, Windows Media, MPG4, Quicktime, etc.

It has the potential of modifying base packages.


-Ross
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Re: [CentOS] m4v

[Ralph Angenendt]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I run 5.2, how do I play m4v videos? I am not trying to remove any
> DRM, only to view some Internet videos such as Lightroom killer tips:
> Any suggestion?

VLC and/or mplayer from the rpmforge repository:



Cheers,

Ralph

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[CentOS] m4v

[centos]

Hi,

I run 5.2, how do I play m4v videos? I am not trying to remove any
DRM, only to view some Internet videos such as Lightroom killer tips:

(http://www.lightroomkillertips.com/videos/download.php?file=lightroom_foldersanddrives.m4v)
 

uses m4v files.

Any suggestion?

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[CentOS] snmptrapd -A option deprecated?

[Camron W. Fox]

Alle,

	The man page for snmptrapd (CentOS5.2/net-snmp-5.3.1-24.el5_2.1) 
*shows* the -A option (to append the output to file) is still valid, but 
 it is not. snmptrapd -h omits the option and doesn't show an alternate 
flag. The option is still valid for snmpd. /etc/snmp/snmptrapd.options 
looks like this:


OPTIONS="-A -Lf /var/log/snmptrapd.log -p /var/run/snmptrapd.pid"

Does anyone know if this option is still available?

Best Regards,
Camron

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RE: [CentOS] new list proposal

[bruce]

hey tony...

care to discern the future results of the US pres election!!!

thanks for the laugh...



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Toby Bluhm
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 11:32 AM
To: CentOS mailing list
Subject: Re: [CentOS] new list proposal


I was interested in seeing what the actual vote results may be, so 
here's what I've calculated:

New list as proposed - 5

Keep as is - 11

Either way - 2

Keep + update charter - 2

New list + new name/charter - 6

Not declared - 3


A few folks posted remarks, but I could not detect a vote - that's the 
not declared category. A few seemed to flip their vote through out the 
discussion - so I made a best guess as to their intent.


I put myself into the keep as is category.


-- 
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Toby Bluhm]

I was interested in seeing what the actual vote results may be, so 
here's what I've calculated:


New list as proposed - 5

Keep as is - 11

Either way - 2

Keep + update charter - 2

New list + new name/charter - 6

Not declared - 3


A few folks posted remarks, but I could not detect a vote - that's the 
not declared category. A few seemed to flip their vote through out the 
discussion - so I made a best guess as to their intent.



I put myself into the keep as is category.


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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Florin Andrei]

Karanbir Singh wrote:


And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage 
such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.


Over a period of time, we would like to see the CentOS list become a 
more user help and distro specific list, with generic conversations 
moving to the centos-tech list.


Nah. It will be too fragmented and people will never figure out the 
difference between the lists.


Just my $0.02

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[CentOS] Linux Expo, London 23rd to 25th Oct 2008

[Karanbir Singh]

Hi,

We need a few people to help with the CentOS booth at Linux Expo in 
London, from the 23rd to the 25th. If you are around and able to come 
hang out with the us ( Lance and I will be there too ) it would be much 
appreciated. If you are interested, reply to this thread here, on the 
centos-promo list or email me offlist.


If you are in the area, come say hi anyway, even if you cant help at the 
booth ! Would be good to put faces to some of the names on this list.


http://www.linuxexpo.org.uk/

- KB
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Ralph Angenendt]

Spike Turner wrote:
> Out of curiosity which major linux distro operates
> a fragmented mailing list such as the one proposed?

https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo
http://lists.debian.org/completeindex.html
https://lists.ubuntu.com/
https://ml.mandriva.net/wws/lists

Compared to those CentOS really has few lists.

> Recently Wikipedia migrated from Red Hat/Fedora to
> Ubuntu? Why didn't they consider CentOS?

I don't know - do you?

> I think I've seen Dag Wieers and Johhny Hughes posting questions 
> on the Nahant-list, why not on this list or the Centos forum?

Because they had Nahant questions or wanted to make Nahant users or developers
aware of something? I think basically they chose the venue they thought to be
correct for the question.

> Such a fragmentation as that proposed is one guaranteed to
> turn the CentOS mailing list along the lines of the CentOS forum.

In favour for the forums (and that from me!): It's massively easier to filter 
out stuff in a mailing list than it is to do so in a forum.

Ralph

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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Karanbir Singh]

Ross Walker wrote:

Given the overall poor reception of the idea, I'd just put it on the back
burner for now...


yes, thats sounding like a good idea for the time being.

- KB
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Bob Taylor]

On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 18:12 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
> Bob Taylor wrote:
> > Have you looked at Usenet? It's user post/OT list history? Should give
> > you good information on splitting a list into one or more parts and the
> > results of doing so.
> 
> Last time I checked, there was more than 1 newsgroup.

Of course! I haven't been on the Linux lists for years. I do remember
there were several. I meant to be specific to Linux lists for historical
information on signal/noise etc. Sorry.

Bob
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Akemi Yagi]

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Spike Turner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think I've seen Dag Wieers and Johhny Hughes posting questions
> on the Nahant-list, why not on this list or the Centos forum?
> Such a fragmentation as that proposed is one guaranteed to
> turn the CentOS mailing list along the lines of the CentOS forum.
>
> Spike.

I have been following this thread but have not said anything so far.
But this one caught my eyes.  Could you elaborate on the "guaranteed
to turn the CentOS mailing list along the lines of the CentOS forum"
part?

Akemi
(toracat, CentOS forum MODERATOR)
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Bob Taylor]

On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 10:08 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
> this list isnt really a general list as you put it, its more of a 
> user-help and support list for people who use and are considering to use 
> CentOS.

This is my understanding of the purpose of this list.

>  This list is now also at a stage where the on-topic to off-topic 
>   ratio is high enough that plenty of people who join to talk about a 
> specific issue, never return back to the list.

I haven't really noticed the on topic off topic ratio being to high.
There will *always* be people who join a list to ask for specific help
then unsubscribe after getting their answer. Such is life.

> So we are not really 
> doing much in terms of building the community, were in a state where 
> there is one group of very vocal people, and lost of drive-by. Is that 
> really the sort of situation we want to encourage and grow further into ?

Are you saying the on topic posting have diminished and the cause is
"very vocal people" and one subject people who are never heard from
again? It has been my experience this is mostly a normal situation. It
has also been my experience that there are people who just *must*
attempt to take over. I would, after they are identified, just remove
them from the list and blacklist them. Of course, let them know before
hand.

> Also, if you were to be one of the moderators - how many hours a day, 7 
> days a week would you be offering to do sub minute response rates for 
> all list moderation ?

You may be asking for even *more* work with an additional list.

> The CentOS lists are not really moderated much, unless things go very 
> crazy, and imho it would be nice to keep things that way. Focus the 
> conversation, create more avenues for people to interact, and create a 
> feedback loop that really does work. If for most people both the lists 
> are going to be the same thing, well - feel free to subscribe to both. 
> Just consider which one you want to start a conversation in when you do 
> start a conversation and all will be well.

If there is a decision to create two different lists, then I would
strongly suggest that both be well defined as to the purpose as well as
the subject matter allowed.

> Ofcourse, a mechanism to move a conversation between lists, along with 
> auto-subscribe for all users contributing to that thread, into the 
> moved-to-list, would be great to have!

Any programmers want to volunteer?

I have said enough already. Goodbye to this thread.

Bob
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Karanbir Singh]

MHR wrote:

Thank you - for listening, participating, discussing and making the
right choice.


At the moment, its more a case of a 'failure to communicate' in my 
opinion. Lets see how it pans out. There are still some really good 
ideas in this thread, most worth looking at.


- KB
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Re: [CentOS] strict memory

[John R Pierce]

Mag Gam wrote:

Hi John:

Well, we run a lot of statistical analysis and our code loads a lot of
data into a vector for fast calculations. I am not sure how else to do
these calculations fast without loading it into memory. Thats why we
have to do it this way.
  



well, if you got several processes that each need 32GB in a 64GB 
machine, you're gonna end up swapping.


the traditional way of doing this sort of thing on limited memory 
machines was to take a sequential pass through the data, calculating the 
statistics on the fly.   I know that kind of thing is very difficult for 
some algorithms (FFT's are notorious for being unfriendly to sequential 
processing), but for many algorithms, a few sequential passes of 
calculations can be /faster/ than random access and swapping when theres 
memory/process contention.

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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Les Mikesell]

Stephen Harris wrote:


To be honest, I don't think this list should be split.  Instead it
should be more rigorously policed. 


I have to disagree strongly with that, since policing generally wastes 
everyone's time with more noise that it manages to control and there 
will (and should) always be an influx of new users who won't understand 
arcane rules.



This should be a list about CentOS,
and working with CentOS.

Generic SA type stuff (how do you do "this generic task" in script) should
not be present here; there's already enough SA type lists out there.


But the way you administer Centos or any RH-like system is very much 
different than the way you administer other systems.  Anything that 
involves yum, rpm, chkconfig, system, system-config-*, or the various 
bits squirreled away under /etc/sysconfig are pretty system-specific and 
if the right answer involves them (as most SA tasks do) you'll get the 
wrong answer on a generic SA list.  There's also the problem that if you 
mention the application versions you are running on Centos, the answer 
in any other forum will be "update to current..." which only rarely is 
the right thing to do.



Similarly, Apache configuration shouldn't be here... although interaction
between Apache and SELinux probably _should_.


Or the bits that various system-specific packages splat into 
/etc/httpd/conf.d.



CentOS specific questions
should be particularly welcome (which would, therefore, also include
discussion of "features" from upstream).

I guess a rule of thumb could be "if the question and answer is materially
unchanged if the OS is CentOS or Debian or Solaris or *BSD then it
doesn't belong here."


If you have to ask a question, there is almost no chance that you will 
know if that is true about the answer or not.  But even if you did, the 
missing piece is something that covers best practices or how to do 
things on Red Hat-like systems.  There's not much that is really 
Centos-specific but a lot that applies across fedora, RH, and its rebuilds.


--
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[MHR]

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Karanbir Singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ross Walker wrote:
>>
>> Given the overall poor reception of the idea, I'd just put it on the back
>> burner for now...
>
> yes, thats sounding like a good idea for the time being.
>
> - KB

Thank you - for listening, participating, discussing and making the
right choice.

mhr
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Re: [CentOS] strict memory

[Mag Gam]

Hi John:

Well, we run a lot of statistical analysis and our code loads a lot of
data into a vector for fast calculations. I am not sure how else to do
these calculations fast without loading it into memory. Thats why we
have to do it this way.

TIA

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 1:00 PM, John R Pierce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mag Gam wrote:
>>
>> Hello All:
>>
>> Running 5.2 at our university. We have several student's processes
>> that take up too much memory. Our system have 64G of RAM and some
>> processes take close to 32-48G of RAM. This is causing many problems
>> for others. I was wondering if there is a way to restrict memory usage
>> per process? If the process goes over 32G simply kill it. Any thoughts
>> or ideas?
>>
>>
>
> In /etc/profile, use "ulimit -v "   (in kilobytes) to limit the max
> virtual of all processes spawned by that shell
>
>
> 32G per process on a 64G machine sounds like a bit much.wouldn't a limit
> more like 4GB per user session be more appropriate on a multiuser system?
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Ross Walker]

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Karanbir Singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
>>
>> I understand the eagerness to lower the "noise" ratio,
>
> I've read and re-read my original email, and not one place can I find
> something that would lead so many people to believe that the whole aim of
> the new list was to reduce the noise ratio alone.
>
> Maybe I just didnt word my original email too well. Or perhaps there really
> is much resistance to talking about stuff along more generic lines here in
> this community.

Given the overall poor reception of the idea, I'd just put it on the back
burner for now...

-Ross
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal - meaningless

[Karanbir Singh]

Spike Turner wrote:

A driveby waste of space post was one by a certain Karanbir
telling someone to recklessly upgrade Gnome when this is supposed
to be an enterprise distro.


Last time I checked, it was still a free world ? unless you live in the 
US, in which case, all bets are off. And yes, I still maintain that its 
your machine, you should have the full liberty to do whatever you like 
with it.



If people using CentOS are having problems e.g with the kernel
and the devs don't have time to respond to questions on the
list or on the forum, they don't have any extra sensory perception
powers to automagically know that Johnny is working on those do 
they?


you might want to look again, this issue has been raised and spoken 
about quite a few times, in quite a few different media.

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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal - meaningless

[Spike Turner]

Karanbir Singh wrote:

> Thats a bit of a dribveby waste of space post that does not
> really merit 
> a reply from anyone. Also if that was something that
> concerns you so 
> much, what have you done about it ?
> 
> >
> http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-October/066154.html
> 
> Johnny has been working on those.
> 
> > If the CentOS devs don't have time to answer key
> questions such as
> > on the kernel but have time to consider fragmenting
> the mailing list
> > who wins/loses?
> 
> What barriers did you run into when you tried to help with
> the situation 
> and try to be a better member of the community ?
> 

A driveby waste of space post was one by a certain Karanbir
telling someone to recklessly upgrade Gnome when this is supposed
to be an enterprise distro.

What do you mean barriers? I have perused through a few lists
and none of the the devs on other lists have an attitude like 
yours. This is why I think this fragmentation of the mailing
lists is not to solve any "problem" other than that perceived 
by those 17 foot tall with egos to match.

If people using CentOS are having problems e.g with the kernel
and the devs don't have time to respond to questions on the
list or on the forum, they don't have any extra sensory perception
powers to automagically know that Johnny is working on those do 
they?

Spike.


  

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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Karanbir Singh]

Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
I understand the eagerness to lower the "noise" ratio, 


I've read and re-read my original email, and not one place can I find 
something that would lead so many people to believe that the whole aim 
of the new list was to reduce the noise ratio alone.


Maybe I just didnt word my original email too well. Or perhaps there 
really is much resistance to talking about stuff along more generic 
lines here in this community.


- KB


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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal - meaningless

[MHR]

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 9:52 AM, Karanbir Singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> If the CentOS devs don't have time to answer key questions such as
>> on the kernel but have time to consider fragmenting the mailing list
>> who wins/loses?
>
> What barriers did you run into when you tried to help with the situation and
> try to be a better member of the community ?
>

I'm just a small-time CentOS user, working (currently) in an
environment where CentOS is a prime candidate as the base OS for our
next major systems upgrade (for our application, to be distributed to
our entire customer base).  At my last job, I was sufficiently
impressed with CentOS that I took it home and now use it exclusively
for my main desktop, laptop, at-work desktop (on two machines now!),
with Window$ running only as a VM using VMWare Server.

I've been in this business a long time, and I've seen a lot of things
happen, including splitting of mailing lists or other
group-communications efforts, I have a big mouth and am not (too)
afraid to use it, I try to be at least a bit funny in my postings, but
I also have a fuse that occasionally burns short with what I view as
truly stupid questions, and I ask my own fair share of them as well.

That said, I am drawn back to this paragraph from
http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=16:

"The CentOS discussion and information list is a general purpose
communication list for centos. Security updates are currently
announced on this list once daily. This list is read and reply for
anyone that is a member of the mailing list. (Archives)"

In that context, there is little that is completely off-topic here,
and IMNSHO, rightly so.

As Niki said earlier in this discussion, KISS.

List courtesy demands that when a list moderator (and I don't know who
all of these are, but I do know that KB is one of them) says, "this is
OT," that's the end of a discussion on this list.  (Well, it should
be.)

Other than blatantly stupid or obviously unresearched questions (as we
see from time to time), the  key/button is a great solution to
most of the issues that have given rise to this discussion, and it is
a lot less work that splitting (and managing the split of) this list.

IIRC, the most likely effect of such a list split is that one of the
new lists will prosper and grow, and the other will atrophy and die,
thus replacing this list with one of the new ones, which will then
serve the same purpose in the long run as this list already does.  It
might take months, or years, but that's usually what happens, and it's
not worth the upheaval created in the first place.

However, I am neither a moderator nor owner of this list, so I will
deal with the administrative decision that is made in this regard my
own way, as will we all, and hope that something good comes of it.

I believe that the best "good" that can come from this discussion is
that all will realize what a treasure this list is, in its current
form, and that it is worth preserving as is.

That's my $40.00 worth ($0.02 in 1960 US money).

Mark Hull-Richter
CentOS Linux Software Developer
Registered Linux User #472807
- sign up at http://counter.li.org/
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Karanbir Singh]

Bob Taylor wrote:

Have you looked at Usenet? It's user post/OT list history? Should give
you good information on splitting a list into one or more parts and the
results of doing so.


Last time I checked, there was more than 1 newsgroup.

- KB
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Re: [CentOS] [OT] what crashing means WAS: firefox is incredibly unstable

[sbeam]

On Thursday 16 October 2008 12:08, bruce wrote:
> when you're saying "crashing", what exactly do you mean?.. is it the app
> that crashes.. is it that your mouse/keyboard no longer works?, is your
> system still running (you can ssh into it), but you can't move your
> mouse???

it crashed, it asploded, it died, went bye bye, sionara, adios, headed for the 
exit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crash_(computing)#Application_crashes

that is different than a "system hang" or a "desktop freeze" or an "app 
freeze" which are the other conditions you are describing, and need to be 
resolved by manually killing the offending process or with the power button. 

regards,
Sam
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OT: [CentOS] new list proposal

[James B. Byrne]

On: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:01:54 +0100, "Marcelo M. Garcia"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Karanbir Singh wrote:
>> One thing that we are often blamed for is trying to stifle conversations
>> and to discourage people from commenting / contributing / encouraging
>> conversations. And that cant be further from the truth, really. We are
>> all pro-community ( and when I say we, I mean everyone - including the
>> contributors, developers, admins, users, abusers and hey upstream too ).
>>
>> However, one thing that does get in the way, often, and something that
>> we all feel creates a higher 'noise' ratio is conversations on this list
>> about semi-related stuff, but not something that directly contributes to
>> the general users of CentOS. Conversations that specifically address
>> four areas:
>>
>> - technologies
>> - best practices
>> - deployment strategies and tools
>> - management strategies and tools
>>
>> And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage
>> such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
>>
>> Over a period of time, we would like to see the CentOS list become a
>> more user help and distro specific list, with generic conversations
>> moving to the centos-tech list.
>>
> Hi
>
> I understand the eagerness to lower the "noise" ratio, but I think
> creating another list is not the solution, it will simply create an
> extra work for the people in the list "centos" in the sense that you
> will have to keep reminding people to use the "tech" list, or saying to
> newcomers that should sign for the "tech" list.
>
> Noise is the side effect of the success of the project CentOS. As the
> project grows, more people will be joining the list, and there will be
> more noise.
>
> In my opinion there aren't much "off-topic"/noise in this list.
>
> Regards
>
> Marcelo
>

I too, see little problem with the current signal to noise ratio. 
Compared to some tech lists I subscribe too this one is pretty much always
on the topic of some aspect of using CentOS effective and efficiently.

If some people really have problems with the degree of latitude extended
to subjects here then perhaps an appropriate solution is to set up a list
called centos-strict and allow those that have strong feelings on the
matter of appropriateness, whatever that turns out to mean, to subscribe
there.

Once a day a digest of the centos-strict list could be posted to this
list, in a fashion similar to that done for CentOS announcements.  So that
topics of interest discussed there would still reach a wider audience.

The existing centos list is pretty much established as the first port of
call for a new contributor.  It seems to me counter-productive to create a
new list to serve that purpose and then force new people to resubscribe to
a different list, doubtless after receiving abuse from self-appointed
moral managers for posting the wrong subjects here.

As a case in point, what does the creation of new mailing lists have to do
with CentOS, exactly?  What is deemed appropriate and on topic is really
more a matter of taste than anything else.

-- 
***  E-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel  ***
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Canada  L8E 3C3

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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Karanbir Singh]

Kenneth Price wrote:

and that includes you, ya big teddy bear.


I am not *that* fat!


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Re: [CentOS] central patch list

[Karanbir Singh]

Mark Belanger wrote:

Is there a list somewhere of available updates for a
given CentOS release?  Something like this:
https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/rhel4ws-errata.html

Ideally I would like a something like:
Bug DescriptionLink to update
kernel blah,etchttp://some.rpm.com/.rpm


The CentOS-announce list and the list achieves are the closest to that 
at the moment. There was talk and some design progress on creating a 
python based app that would have more detailed info, we lost traction 
with the main guy behind that needing to go do some other things ( like, 
actually gradate ).


If anyone wants to help resurrect that, do get in touch :D

- KB
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Karanbir Singh]

Christopher Chan wrote:

- technologies
- best practices
- deployment strategies and tools
- management strategies and tools


I don't know whether that will take off...has not it been tried outside 
centos.org by centos list members already?


Not that I am aware of. But its worth a try here in .centos.org ( or so 
I feel anyway ). What we do or dont do will ultimately be based on what 
everyone feels about it.


And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further 
encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' 
list.

They sound like 'general' stuff that lot.


yes, a lot more generic than something that is distro specific.


How about a centos-help list instead?


I am not sure if that would work, its been tried many times and always 
fails back to the fact that everyone who posts to a list, has an issue 
they need help with.

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Re: [CentOS] strict memory

[John R Pierce]

Mag Gam wrote:

Hello All:

Running 5.2 at our university. We have several student's processes
that take up too much memory. Our system have 64G of RAM and some
processes take close to 32-48G of RAM. This is causing many problems
for others. I was wondering if there is a way to restrict memory usage
per process? If the process goes over 32G simply kill it. Any thoughts
or ideas?

  


In /etc/profile, use "ulimit -v "   (in kilobytes) to limit the max 
virtual of all processes spawned by that shell



32G per process on a 64G machine sounds like a bit much.wouldn't a 
limit more like 4GB per user session be more appropriate on a multiuser 
system?

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Re: [CentOS] strict memory

[Joshua Baker-LePain]

On Thu, 16 Oct 2008 at 12:48pm, Mag Gam wrote


Running 5.2 at our university. We have several student's processes
that take up too much memory. Our system have 64G of RAM and some
processes take close to 32-48G of RAM. This is causing many problems
for others. I was wondering if there is a way to restrict memory usage
per process? If the process goes over 32G simply kill it. Any thoughts
or ideas?


Have a look at /etc/security/limits.conf.

--
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QB3 Shared Cluster Sysadmin
UCSF
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Re: [CentOS] strict memory

[Mag Gam]

Yes. Thanks. I was thinking of that too. Any other suggestions?

TIA


On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Filipe Brandenburger
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:48, Mag Gam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I was wondering if there is a way to restrict memory usage
>> per process? If the process goes over 32G simply kill it.
>
> You can limit the amount of virtual memory of a process with "ulimit
> -v". See "help ulimit" or "man bash" for more details.
>
> HTH,
> Filipe
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Karanbir Singh]

Les Mikesell wrote:
Centos-applications might make sense if the idea is to cover how to do 
things using programs that run on Centos - or when/how to replace the 
packaged apps with newer versions.  But you might want hardware advice too.


yes, also the idea of best practices is something that would / should 
really get more airtime. There is a *lot* of talent on this list, and I 
feel a lot of conversations dont really get projected well due to the 
nature of the conversation / this list.


I dont see why people in this thread prefer to ignore that aspect of a 
new list -> to create an avenue for that extra conversation.


Also, all that talk about Redhat and Fedora lists working well as a 
single list is just noise. Have you looked at the number of lists there 
are there ? ( https://redhat.com/mailman/listinfo )


The idea is to create a new list, that focus's on some specific areas, 
and also provides the means to create more conversations amongst people, 
Not to kill any one list off or another. The word 'split' does not 
really figure anywhere in that plan.


- KB
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Re: [CentOS] strict memory

[Filipe Brandenburger]

Hi,

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:48, Mag Gam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was wondering if there is a way to restrict memory usage
> per process? If the process goes over 32G simply kill it.

You can limit the amount of virtual memory of a process with "ulimit
-v". See "help ulimit" or "man bash" for more details.

HTH,
Filipe
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal - meaningless

[Karanbir Singh]

Spike Turner wrote:
perhaps that is why "core" issues in CentOS like the kernel 
and samba are ignored by the developers? Examples :-


http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-October/066143.html


Thats a bit of a dribveby waste of space post that does not really merit 
a reply from anyone. Also if that was something that concerns you so 
much, what have you done about it ?



http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-October/066154.html


Johnny has been working on those.


If the CentOS devs don't have time to answer key questions such as
on the kernel but have time to consider fragmenting the mailing list
who wins/loses?


What barriers did you run into when you tried to help with the situation 
and try to be a better member of the community ?


- KB
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[CentOS] central patch list

[Mark Belanger]

Is there a list somewhere of available updates for a
given CentOS release?  Something like this:
https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/rhel4ws-errata.html

Ideally I would like a something like:
Bug DescriptionLink to update
kernel blah,etchttp://some.rpm.com/.rpm

-Mark
--
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LTX Corporation

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[CentOS] strict memory

[Mag Gam]

Hello All:

Running 5.2 at our university. We have several student's processes
that take up too much memory. Our system have 64G of RAM and some
processes take close to 32-48G of RAM. This is causing many problems
for others. I was wondering if there is a way to restrict memory usage
per process? If the process goes over 32G simply kill it. Any thoughts
or ideas?

TIA
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Stephen Harris]

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 11:18:42AM -0500, Kenneth Price wrote:
> - "John Hinton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > But I would like a bit more freedom on the sysadmin list. The ability
> > to get more in depth on particulars and include discussions of other 
> > software which interacts with existing systems to aid in going 
> > further... extending Centos so to speak.

> Do you think that by definition, the "system-admins" list should
> encompass that freedom?  Linux system administration is not limited
> to bash scripting and configuring Apache virtual hosts, but also
> includes architecting multi-tiered, multi-faceted, multi-platform
> environments.  I think the label of "system-admins" for a second list
> is going in the right direction.  Maybe something a bit more specific,
> like CentOS-sysadmin-advanced?  Not the best name, but conveys my idea.

To be honest, I don't think this list should be split.  Instead it
should be more rigorously policed.  This should be a list about CentOS,
and working with CentOS.

Generic SA type stuff (how do you do "this generic task" in script) should
not be present here; there's already enough SA type lists out there.
Similarly, Apache configuration shouldn't be here... although interaction
between Apache and SELinux probably _should_.  CentOS specific questions
should be particularly welcome (which would, therefore, also include
discussion of "features" from upstream).

I guess a rule of thumb could be "if the question and answer is materially
unchanged if the OS is CentOS or Debian or Solaris or *BSD then it
doesn't belong here."

But that's just my opinion.

-- 

rgds
Stephen
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Bob Taylor]

On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 10:02 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:

[snip]

Karanbir,

Have you looked at Usenet? It's user post/OT list history? Should give
you good information on splitting a list into one or more parts and the
results of doing so.

Bob
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Spike Turner]

Kai Schaetzl wrote:

> I agree with all you said and I think that a distinction
> along the lines 
> of how one uses CentOS might indeed help, say
> centos-server-users and 
> centos-desktop-users or a list that is just about hardware
> and making it 
> work with CentOS.

Out of curiosity which major linux distro operates
a fragmented mailing list such as the one proposed?
I personally don't see why CentOS should be so elitist
seeing it hasn't got the user-base/support-base of the
major distros.

Recently Wikipedia migrated from Red Hat/Fedora to
Ubuntu? Why didn't they consider CentOS?

I think I've seen Dag Wieers and Johhny Hughes posting questions 
on the Nahant-list, why not on this list or the Centos forum?
Such a fragmentation as that proposed is one guaranteed to
turn the CentOS mailing list along the lines of the CentOS forum.

Spike.


  

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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 11:18 -0500, Kenneth Price wrote:
> - "John Hinton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Craig White wrote:
> > >
> > > If you are going to go to multiple lists, might I suggest that you
> > > have 1 system-admins list and 1 general-users list and you can tightly
> > 
> > But I would like a bit more freedom on the sysadmin list. The ability
> > to get more in depth on particulars and include discussions of other 
> > software which interacts with existing systems to aid in going 
> > further... extending Centos so to speak.
> 
> Do you think that by definition, the "system-admins" list should encompass 
> that freedom?  Linux system administration is not limited to bash scripting 
> and configuring Apache virtual hosts, but also includes architecting 
> multi-tiered, multi-faceted, multi-platform environments.  I think the label 
> of "system-admins" for a second list is going in the right direction.  Maybe 
> something a bit more specific, like CentOS-sysadmin-advanced?  Not the best 
> name, but conveys my idea.  The understanding on that list is that the 
> application of CentOS in real world environments can and should also be 
> discussed.
> 
> Eh?  Yes, no, maybe?

since I brought it up, I will elucidate my thinking...

There are many users who are drawn to the 'enterprise' aspect of CentOS
that are likely maintaining more than 1 CentOS system and use the list
for more work related topics and are more put off by the tangential
discussions. For obvious reasons, CentOS is not going to call it an
'enterprise' mail list and I was thinking that a list for
'system-admins' says much same thing in a much less competitive way.

The second list of 'users' would not need to be held to a tight standard
of on-topic discussions and could, should, would embrace those less
experienced in open source software customs and etiquette.

That said, I'm not sure that we need 2 lists but since Karanbir raised
the topic, I thought I would guide it towards what I feel makes the most
sense.

Craig

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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Kai Schaetzl]

John Hinton wrote on Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:09:26 -0400:

> Perhaps a new list name that might be considered would be 
> CentOS-Extended or CentOS-Servers. A place where Apache conf can be 
> discussed, as I'm sure the desktop users don't want to hear about 
> this... or running a DNS server... and the hoards of issues that come 
> with running a mailserver.

I agree with all you said and I think that a distinction along the lines 
of how one uses CentOS might indeed help, say centos-server-users and 
centos-desktop-users or a list that is just about hardware and making it 
work with CentOS.

Kai

-- 
Kai Schätzl, Berlin, Germany
Get your web at Conactive Internet Services: http://www.conactive.com



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Re: [CentOS] Seeking advice about auth/home serving

[MHR]

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 7:22 AM, Ross Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Basically, in a nutshell what I was trying to get across is:
>
> 1) Keep passwords in local passwd files or Kerberos, using NIS or LDAP for
> passwords is generally not a good idea as there are too many ways these can be
> compromised. I realize one can hack Heimdal Kerberos and OpenLDAP to work
> together keeping Kerberos information in LDAP like Active Directory does, but
> it is a complex unsupported hack that is sure to break at some point if either
> side is upgraded. If that's what you want, go out and buy an Active Directory
> server and integrate it into your Linux environment.
>
> 2) Use of LDAP for most small environments is overkill. NIS for auto-mount 
> maps
> and account information (passwords stripped), is more then adequate here, but
> as the organization grows you may find NIS harder to manage then LDAP, so at
> that time I would migrate from NIS to LDAP. Of course there may be other 
> reasons
> to use LDAP over NIS, such as third party application support where third 
> party
> application configuration information is distributed through LDAP. Of
> course your
> choice will be based on your requirements independant of what anybody like
> myself says.
>
> I hope that helps clarify things.
>

Indeed, and awesomely so.

Many thanks.

mhr
(no grump here :-)
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Kenneth Price]

- "John Hinton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Craig White wrote:
> >
> > If you are going to go to multiple lists, might I suggest that you
> > have 1 system-admins list and 1 general-users list and you can tightly
> 
> But I would like a bit more freedom on the sysadmin list. The ability
> to get more in depth on particulars and include discussions of other 
> software which interacts with existing systems to aid in going 
> further... extending Centos so to speak.

Do you think that by definition, the "system-admins" list should encompass that 
freedom?  Linux system administration is not limited to bash scripting and 
configuring Apache virtual hosts, but also includes architecting multi-tiered, 
multi-faceted, multi-platform environments.  I think the label of 
"system-admins" for a second list is going in the right direction.  Maybe 
something a bit more specific, like CentOS-sysadmin-advanced?  Not the best 
name, but conveys my idea.  The understanding on that list is that the 
application of CentOS in real world environments can and should also be 
discussed.

Eh?  Yes, no, maybe?

-Ken
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RE: [CentOS] firefox is incredibly unstable

[bruce]

hey

when you're saying "crashing", what exactly do you mean?.. is it the app
that crashes.. is it that your mouse/keyboard no longer works?, is your
system still running (you can ssh into it), but you can't move your mouse???

thanks



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Marcelo M. Garcia
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 1:47 AM
To: CentOS mailing list
Subject: Re: [CentOS] firefox is incredibly unstable


sbeam wrote:
> does anyone else have major probs with Firefox as installed on CentOS5?
>
> ever since the RPM for FF3 came out it has been crashing daily. Usually
when I
> use Save As... or Browse... or anything else that brings up the Gnome file
> picker. After the crash I re-start then the file picker works for a while.
>
> Sometimes it just takes scrolling or click+drag an image or some other
random
> action. BANG your'e dead. Very frustrating.
>
> Now today it is just crashing randomly, I am not even touching it. Maybe
one
> of my plugins, I know. I guess I will run it with debugger/strace. but
does
> anyone else see this?
>
> $ rpm -qa firefox
> firefox-3.0.2-3.el5.centos
> $ cat /etc/redhat-release
> CentOS release 5.2 (Final)
> $ rpm -qa kdebase
> kdebase-3.5.4-18.el5.centos
>
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Hi

Sorry to hear this, but I use Firefox 3.0.2 daily and I don't have any
of these problems. For me works fine.

Regards

Marcelo

Centos 5.2 (2.6.18-92.1.13.el5)
firefox-3.0.2-3.el5.centos

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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Kenneth Price]

- "Craig White" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you are going to go to multiple lists, might I suggest that you
> have 1 system-admins list and 1 general-users list and you can tightly
> control the system-admins list.

I disagreed with the idea of creating a second list as originally proposed, 
however, I think two lists as you describe is a good middle ground and the 
remainder of this thread should be directed towards a compromise of this nature.

-Ken


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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Kenneth Price]

- "Karanbir Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Kenneth Price wrote:
> > I agree with Jeff.  While I understand this general list can become
> a bit overwhelming for the CentOS Staff, we all must remember that
> this is a GENERAL list.  All questions, from the novice to the expert
> should be welcome.  This list is not only a way to get problems
> resolved, but a very effective learning tool for all users.  Let's
> remember why we're here.  To support and learn from our fellow CentOS
> users/admins.
> 
> I dont agree with you. Here is why:
> 

Karanbir, I'm not going to argue back and forth about who's wrong and who's 
right, but will simply agree to disagree.  I've been a Linux user since 1995, 
and a CentOS user since it's inception.  I love the distro, and love the users 
- and that includes you, ya big teddy bear.

Ken
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Re: [CentOS] firefox is incredibly unstable

[Robert]

Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:

sbeam wrote:

does anyone else have major probs with Firefox as installed on CentOS5?




Hi

Sorry to hear this, but I use Firefox 3.0.2 daily and I don't have any 
of these problems. For me works fine.


Regards

Marcelo

Centos 5.2 (2.6.18-92.1.13.el5)
firefox-3.0.2-3.el5.centos

Same here, Marcello.  Firefox has been running several days, currently 
with an insane 47 tabs.



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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[John Hinton]

Craig White wrote:


If you are going to go to multiple lists, might I suggest that you have
1 system-admins list and 1 general-users list and you can tightly
control the system-admins list.

Craig

  

Craig. I like these definitive names!

But I would like a bit more freedom on the sysadmin list. The ability to 
get more in depth on particulars and include discussions of other 
software which interacts with existing systems to aid in going 
further... extending Centos so to speak.


John Hinton
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Re: [CentOS] Postfix problem

[mouss]

Paolo Supino a écrit :
> 
> Hi
>   I didn't think of checking if Sendmail is the one sending the email or
> not. I will have to check this out.
>   I will only have access to this server next Wednesday. So until then I
> can't check anything or post anything ...
> 


If you find that it's sendmail, use alternatives to set the MTA to
postfix instead (and stop Sendmail as you don't need it anymore, and
having two different MTAs on a box generally results in surprises).

if that's not the problem, ask on the postfix-users list. There show the
output of 'postconf -n' and relevant logs. you can hide private domains
and IPs but do so coherently (use example.com, example.org, example.net
or whateveryouwant.example for domains, and use 192.0.2.* for "public"
IPs. but make your substitution a "one to one" mapping).
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[John Hinton]

Karanbir Singh wrote:

Chris Geldenhuis wrote:
I agree with Jeff, in other forums where that I belong to the 
distinction between "tech" and "chat" quickly becomes blurred and 
many posts are cross posted to both (or all) lists, causing 
duplication in downloads and scanning.


how about when the distinction is between Support/help and 
technoglogy/best-practices ?


It would be easy enough to subscribe or not to a second list. I'm 
finding that more and more I'm just doing mass deletes from this mailing 
list and not really gaining anything it's a lack of time thing. Some 
of what creates the lack of time is drudging through 10 or 20 potential 
'outside' solutions to solve an issue with our systems. Try signing up 
for the Sendmail list, the mysql list, the php list, the apache list and 
then try to read them faster than they come in! And then within one of 
those other list, with lots of flavors of 'nix, try to come up with a 
solution that works best within Centos... So you get stuck in no where 
land... From the Centos side, it's not a Centos issue but instead a 
'insert software shipped with distro here' issue talk to them. And 
then from their side, it's a Centos issue and the way upstream does 
their stuff.


In all fairness, this list has been extremely good about allowing in 
many cases what gets out there on the edge of Centos topics. At the same 
time, when we have Centos users who just want to run a personal desktop 
or laptop... and we have full blown server farms running some of the 
most cutting edge and powerful systems in the world how can we 
expect to all live under the same roof with one mailing list?


Personally, I run webservers under Centos. One of the nuances that comes 
with this is spam. I think all on this list who are in the same boat 
have restrained to a huge degree discussions about dealing with spam or 
spam filtering. We simply know it could all but take over this list and 
that it is really not quite appropriate here. DNS, Apache, mail 
programs... all can lead to in depth discussions again not really 
appropriate on a general list. I have used restraint. I can only suppose 
that many others have as well.


I very much like the idea of another list, which is for the discussion 
of more extensive use of Centos. I also believe this list is quite 
appropriate for 'getting Centos to run' on whatever system you're trying 
to use. But I'll never need to know how to hook up my camera, get a 
wireless card to work, figure out why my uber video card doesn't work or 
really anything to do with a GUI in Centos as these are desktop issues.


I don't want to sound like an elitist or anything... it's just different 
uses. Neither one is above the others just different needs.


Perhaps a new list name that might be considered would be 
CentOS-Extended or CentOS-Servers. A place where Apache conf can be 
discussed, as I'm sure the desktop users don't want to hear about 
this... or running a DNS server... and the hoards of issues that come 
with running a mailserver.


Best,
John Hinton

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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 10:08 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
> Kenneth Price wrote:
> > I agree with Jeff.  While I understand this general list can become a bit 
> > overwhelming for the CentOS Staff, we all must remember that this is a 
> > GENERAL list.  All questions, from the novice to the expert should be 
> > welcome.  This list is not only a way to get problems resolved, but a very 
> > effective learning tool for all users.  Let's remember why we're here.  To 
> > support and learn from our fellow CentOS users/admins.
> 
> I dont agree with you. Here is why:
> 
> this list isnt really a general list as you put it, its more of a 
> user-help and support list for people who use and are considering to use 
> CentOS. This list is now also at a stage where the on-topic to off-topic 
>   ratio is high enough that plenty of people who join to talk about a 
> specific issue, never return back to the list. So we are not really 
> doing much in terms of building the community, were in a state where 
> there is one group of very vocal people, and lost of drive-by. Is that 
> really the sort of situation we want to encourage and grow further into ?
> 
> Also, if you were to be one of the moderators - how many hours a day, 7 
> days a week would you be offering to do sub minute response rates for 
> all list moderation ?
> 
> The CentOS lists are not really moderated much, unless things go very 
> crazy, and imho it would be nice to keep things that way. Focus the 
> conversation, create more avenues for people to interact, and create a 
> feedback loop that really does work. If for most people both the lists 
> are going to be the same thing, well - feel free to subscribe to both. 
> Just consider which one you want to start a conversation in when you do 
> start a conversation and all will be well.
> 
> Ofcourse, a mechanism to move a conversation between lists, along with 
> auto-subscribe for all users contributing to that thread, into the 
> moved-to-list, would be great to have!

I have tried to stay out of this.

I recognize that this is not a democracy and the CentOS developers are
certainly entitled to operate things, especially the mail lists however
they choose.

While I can appreciate that you are of the belief that the CentOS lists
are not moderated much, my perception is that it is moderated more than
most. Certainly not as moderated as say openldap-software list but
nowhere near as free as a Red Hat list.

I also note that moderation comes in 2 forms...the first being when one
of the CentOS developers says stop this thread which is irregular,
inconsistent and often unnecessary and the second being over zealous
people who post more frequently on this list who act as self appointed
list moms and are simply too heavy handed.

I personally think that the biggest problem on the list is not the
off-topic tangents but rather the efforts by some to express excessive
control rather than just delete and move on.

If you are going to go to multiple lists, might I suggest that you have
1 system-admins list and 1 general-users list and you can tightly
control the system-admins list.

Craig

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Re: [CentOS] Seeking advice about auth/home serving

[Ross Walker]

On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 11:08 PM, MHR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Ross Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Sigh...
>>
>> I resist top posting and trim and thread my replies, stay on topic, am
>> polite, all while tapping out on my iPhone display.
>>
>> But that ain't enough no, now I have to watch my run on sentences!
>>
>> Sheesh, from now on MHR, your  name will be Grumpy.
>>
>> So Grumps, if my answers bring up more questions then why not just ask for
>> clarification rather then get all over my poor punctuation?
>>
>
> Oh, such ammunition!  >:^)
>
> That's what you get for using an iPhone!
>
> No, wait, that's cruel.
>
> Ross, you're better than that!
>
> Hmm, that doesn't really say it, either.
>
> Y'know, I can't really think up a good comeback.  Grump, grump, grump
>
> Wait!  I know:
>
> So, what did that sentence really mean?

Basically, in a nutshell what I was trying to get across is:

1) Keep passwords in local passwd files or Kerberos, using NIS or LDAP for
passwords is generally not a good idea as there are too many ways these can be
compromised. I realize one can hack Heimdal Kerberos and OpenLDAP to work
together keeping Kerberos information in LDAP like Active Directory does, but
it is a complex unsupported hack that is sure to break at some point if either
side is upgraded. If that's what you want, go out and buy an Active Directory
server and integrate it into your Linux environment.

2) Use of LDAP for most small environments is overkill. NIS for auto-mount maps
and account information (passwords stripped), is more then adequate here, but
as the organization grows you may find NIS harder to manage then LDAP, so at
that time I would migrate from NIS to LDAP. Of course there may be other reasons
to use LDAP over NIS, such as third party application support where third party
application configuration information is distributed through LDAP. Of
course your
choice will be based on your requirements independant of what anybody like
myself says.

I hope that helps clarify things.


-Ross
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Re: [CentOS] Rebooting CentOS 5.2 XEN Guest

[Brett Serkez]

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Kai Schaetzl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Brett Serkez wrote on Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:23:16 -0400:
>
>> At one time when I issued an 'init 6' in one of the XEN guests it
>> rebooted

I've narrowed the issue to the xend and xendomains daemons.

On one of my systems I was able to init 6 and init 0 no problem, then
suddenly I could not, when this occurred, CPU utilization was 100% on
one CPU on the host with the guest said either "Restarting System" or
"System Halted".   After some investigation I found that if I
restarted the xend and xendomains services I could once again init 0
and init 6.

> I usually use xm reboot from the host. You can also use reboot from within
> the guest. I remember *one* occurence quite a few months back where after
> an update I had problems to shut a VM down. But it happened only that one
> time. Note, there is a centos-virt list.

Thanks for this tip, I have signed up on the centos-virt list.

Brett
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Re: [CentOS] How can I free the disk space after compiling kernel

[Jim Perrin]

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 8:54 AM, Ian jonhson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have recompiled my kernel and updated it to kernel-2.6.27.
> However, I found there are no more than 1G disk space left
> for my jobs.

Seriously?  What size hard drive did you start out with, a 4G kit?

> How can I free my disk space but in the same time keep
> all the compiled kernel modules (*.ko files) here?
> Can I remove the *.o files created by kernel compiling?
> Are there any commands to help me achieve this?

If you're not going to be building anything else against the kernel,
remove the kernel source directory.
rm and possibly find will be your friends.


-- 
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
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[CentOS] How can I free the disk space after compiling kernel

[Ian jonhson]

Hi,

I have recompiled my kernel and updated it to kernel-2.6.27.
However, I found there are no more than 1G disk space left
for my jobs.

How can I free my disk space but in the same time keep
all the compiled kernel modules (*.ko files) here?
Can I remove the *.o files created by kernel compiling?
Are there any commands to help me achieve this?


Thanks a lot,

Ian
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Les Mikesell]

Kai Schaetzl wrote:
I'm all for having less traffic on this list, but I don't have a good 
recipe for that. I doubt that splitting the list will really help much. As 
others have already said you will probably end up with two lists that have 
mixed conversations from the topics of both lists. And it won't help with 
the problem that there are more and more clueless posts where it is very 
clear that the person asking didn't even think a second about doing some 
research before asking here.


Maybe it would make more sense to turn this list into 'Centos-users' 
where anything someone might do would be on topic as long as it involved 
a system running Centos (or planning to run it).  That may be the way 
everyone but Karanbir thinks of it anyway now.   Then add a new list 
called Centos-development or Centos-bugs to deal specifically with 
problems in Centos itself or getting it to install.  As someone else 
mentioned, Centos usually 'just works' so that would probably be very 
low-traffic.


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  Les Mikesell
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Les Mikesell]

Karanbir Singh wrote:

Morten Torstensen wrote:
I think the general CentOS list should be an open and embracing 
community. A centos-tech list sounds more like the name of the 
"developer" or "power user" list than a semi-off-topic technology 
discussion group. That was my first thought when seeing the new name.


What would you recommend as an alternative name for the list ? And it 
wont be 'offtopic' technology chatter, it will be very much ontopic 
there :D


Centos-applications might make sense if the idea is to cover how to do 
things using programs that run on Centos - or when/how to replace the 
packaged apps with newer versions.  But you might want hardware advice too.


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  Les Mikesell
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [CentOS] new list proposal

[Kai Schaetzl]

I'm all for having less traffic on this list, but I don't have a good 
recipe for that. I doubt that splitting the list will really help much. As 
others have already said you will probably end up with two lists that have 
mixed conversations from the topics of both lists. And it won't help with 
the problem that there are more and more clueless posts where it is very 
clear that the person asking didn't even think a second about doing some 
research before asking here.

Try and see.

Kai

-- 
Kai Schätzl, Berlin, Germany
Get your web at Conactive Internet Services: http://www.conactive.com



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