Re: OM future

[Warren Baird]

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Carsten Haitzler wrote:

>  or get a nokia n900 (though my
> experience is that its a pile of junk - as i sit here now with my n900
> having
> bricked itself spontaneously over a week ago, so i'm without a phone,
> 6000km
> from home, not to mention that windows 3.1 seems like a paragon of
> stability
> and solid performance compared to the n900 - the n900 would literally crash
> and
> restart the whole ui very few minutes or sooner at times, but it'd do this
> at
> least 5-10 times per day at a minimum).
>

Well, I'm pretty late replying to this, since I've been so happily playing
with my n900 that I haven't checked this list in a while.  :-)

There's apparently a HW/SW problem affecting a few n900s that cause very
common reboots - they seem to have fixed it in the latest firmwarm - you can
see the details in https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6334

Also - this has some advice on how to unbrick the n900 -
http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/Flash

I tend to get reboots a few times a week, which is still more often than
most people seem to, so I'm going to try flashing the new firmware this
weekend.

Even with the reboots, I *love* my n900...   It's not perfect, but coming
from using my FR as my daily phone for a year - the n900 is fantastic!!

Of course, maybe there will be even better options available soon!   ;-)

Warren


-- 
Warren Baird - Photographer and Digital Artist
http://www.synergisticimages.ca
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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[Wolfgang Spraul]

> a) crack open closed phones by reverse engeneering ?
> b) wait for a manufacturer to compromise its pot of gold by producing an open 
> phone ?
> c) put our head in a bag and pretend an iphone or an android is open enough ?
> d) aim at building one collectively despite all the unbelievers trying to 
> discourage
>the effort ?

d)

And Mickey is right :-)
Wolfgang

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:46:47AM +0100, ri...@happyleptic.org wrote:
> You can't just separate software from hardware. The fact is you can't have
> open software without hardware specs, so open soft and open hard comes close
> together. Go try to rebuild a kernel on a nokia "open" phone for instance,
> and see what part of the phone hardware still works.
> 
> So what should we do ?
> 
> a) crack open closed phones by reverse engeneering ?
> b) wait for a manufacturer to compromise its pot of gold by producing an open 
> phone ?
> c) put our head in a bag and pretend an iphone or an android is open enough ?
> d) aim at building one collectively despite all the unbelievers trying to 
> discourage
>the effort ?
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

Am Samstag, den 27.02.2010, 10:46 +0100 schrieb ri...@happyleptic.org:
> You can't just separate software from hardware. The fact is you can't have
> open software without hardware specs, so open soft and open hard comes close
> together. Go try to rebuild a kernel on a nokia "open" phone for instance,
> and see what part of the phone hardware still works.
> 
> So what should we do ?
> 
> a) crack open closed phones by reverse engeneering ?
> b) wait for a manufacturer to compromise its pot of gold by producing an open 
> phone ?
> c) put our head in a bag and pretend an iphone or an android is open enough ?
> d) aim at building one collectively despite all the unbelievers trying to 
> discourage
>the effort ?

a), b) and d) can be parallized; it's different tasks anyways. FSO will
be ready for any whatever comes out of a), b), and d) :)

Cheers,

-- 
:M:


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[rixed]

You can't just separate software from hardware. The fact is you can't have
open software without hardware specs, so open soft and open hard comes close
together. Go try to rebuild a kernel on a nokia "open" phone for instance,
and see what part of the phone hardware still works.

So what should we do ?

a) crack open closed phones by reverse engeneering ?
b) wait for a manufacturer to compromise its pot of gold by producing an open 
phone ?
c) put our head in a bag and pretend an iphone or an android is open enough ?
d) aim at building one collectively despite all the unbelievers trying to 
discourage
   the effort ?


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:59:18 -0600 Eric Olson  said:

> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:41:24 -0800 (PST) Rafael Ignacio Zurita
> >  said:
> > ...
> > 
> > i'm getting at the fact that the hw side is stuck - it wont work without a
> > pot of gold. the hw side that WORKS are the big companies with lots of pots
> > of gold already. if you want to make something work - work with them on the
> > software side... but you are free to ignore this advice and continue with
> > your idea that you "need to work on the process" as you'll be working on it
> > without anything being produced for a vry long time (read -
> > never) unless you find a pot of gold. it's the hw side  that has these
> > costs that unlike software, can't be replaced by someone simply spending
> > their time on evenings/weekends. it costs real money - get your pot of gold
> > and it can happen, or ork with those who already have the pots of gold -
> > and produce hardware. until then you're an armchair sportsman. you can yell
> > about how that pass was bad or whatever... you won't affect the game -
> > ever. you'll just cover your tv with spittle. :)
> > 
> > 
> 
> Doom and gloom :)
> 
> I still like the idea of a modular 3g modem in your phone.  Design your 
> next openmoko/qi/openwhatever linux pda and leave in a usb port and a 
> cavity for the smallest 3G usb stick.  Maybe place it on the end of the 
> phone and reduce the case size later.  It's not perfect, but it allows 
> replacement of the cell module which gives you lots of flexibility. 
> Similar things already happen -- QI's Ben gets wifi for free with an SD 
> card slot.  It just became much more useful.  This is just an example 
> that you don't need a pot of gold for everything.
> 
> These solutions aren't for everyone, and neither is GNU/Linux on the 
> desktop, but for some it will be the preferred choice.
> 
> Open hardware is still fairly new -- and you _can_ make progress without 
> pots of gold.  You won't be able to get everything, but you might get 
> more (look at GNU/Linux's progress, although I know big companies 
> support some of its development now).  Thank you to gta02-core, QI, and 
> other people for working on open hardware.

as ken young said - 95% of your gnu/linux market just went away if the above
is your solution. 95% of already a small market. they are interested in a real
production-level device that is in the same ballpark as everyone else in
price,, design and features... BUT that runs linux (not android - android is
not linux and very far from it). and that linux needs to be open enough to not
get in the way - if u cant recompile a kernel or cant fix a bug .. then thats
bad. the people who demand open all the way to the bottom including hw
schematics are  tiny subset (the 5%) and suddenly your niche market just got a
hell of a lot more niche - and thats going to kill most models.

but if thats what you like - good luck and enjoy. you will have a very limited
selection of devices - if any and be always fighting against the grain. your
costs will be high. choice low. :( but.. to each their own. the vast majority
of those interested in om were interested in the above - and that included me.
the rest (open hw) is just an added "ooh nice" but not a necessity.

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[Eric Olson]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:41:24 -0800 (PST) Rafael Ignacio Zurita
>  said:
> ...
> 
> i'm getting at the fact that the hw side is stuck - it wont work without a pot
> of gold. the hw side that WORKS are the big companies with lots of pots of 
> gold
> already. if you want to make something work - work with them on the software
> side... but you are free to ignore this advice and continue with your idea 
> that
> you "need to work on the process" as you'll be working on it without anything
> being produced for a vry long time (read - never) unless you
> find a pot of gold. it's the hw side  that has these costs that unlike
> software, can't be replaced by someone simply spending their time on
> evenings/weekends. it costs real money - get your pot of gold and it can
> happen, or ork with those who already have the pots of gold - and produce
> hardware. until then you're an armchair sportsman. you can yell about how that
> pass was bad or whatever... you won't affect the game - ever. you'll just 
> cover
> your tv with spittle. :)
> 
> 

Doom and gloom :)

I still like the idea of a modular 3g modem in your phone.  Design your 
next openmoko/qi/openwhatever linux pda and leave in a usb port and a 
cavity for the smallest 3G usb stick.  Maybe place it on the end of the 
phone and reduce the case size later.  It's not perfect, but it allows 
replacement of the cell module which gives you lots of flexibility. 
Similar things already happen -- QI's Ben gets wifi for free with an SD 
card slot.  It just became much more useful.  This is just an example 
that you don't need a pot of gold for everything.

These solutions aren't for everyone, and neither is GNU/Linux on the 
desktop, but for some it will be the preferred choice.

Open hardware is still fairly new -- and you _can_ make progress without 
pots of gold.  You won't be able to get everything, but you might get 
more (look at GNU/Linux's progress, although I know big companies 
support some of its development now).  Thank you to gta02-core, QI, and 
other people for working on open hardware.

Eric


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:28:18 -0500 (EST) Ken Young  said:

> Wolfgang Spraul  wrote:
> 
> > If the FreeRunner would be bug free, I'm
> > sure people would still use them in 10+ years, easily.
> 
> The truth is that even though the Freerunner is buggy as hell,
> some people will still be using them in 10+ years.   Face it, we are
> now in the same boat as the Apple Newton fanatics.   We play with
> phones, because we enjoy playing with phones.   There is no viable
> business model here.   None.
> 
> Openmoko Inc had a far better shot at success than any open phone
> manufacturer will have again for the foreseeable future.   When the
> Neo 1973 came out, there were no mass-market linux phones available.
> The competition was relatively weak back then.   And still Openomoko
> was not able to make a go of it.   Perhaps better management would
> have made a difference.   But that doesn't matter now.   If you go
> to the maemo IRC channel these days, it's like an Openmoko reunion.

oh indeed. the community has dwindled to like 5% of what it was - as the 95%
(numbers out of arse again) are not as fanatical about having schemtics, cad
designs and every single thing open - they want mostly open - open enough so
closed doesnt get in the way of making apps and doing development - modifying
even the base system (to a reasonable extent). thats what the vast majority are
happy with. closed OpenGL-ES drivers become an issue to them - as they
sometimes crash or dont work and there is little hope of debugging your app as
its linking to a closed blob. they care about the practicalities of open
source. i'm in that boat myself. :)

> The people who want to make applications for a linux phone have
> moved on.   They were a significant part of the Openmoko community,
> and they want a linux phone that works.   If a gta03 were
> to go on sale tomorrow, I believe it would sell more poorly than
> the gta02 did.   And the gta02 didn't sell enough units to keep Openmoko
> Inc in the phone business.   The gta02-core and gta03 are of interest
> only to a proper subset of the people who were originally interested in
> Openmoko phones.
> 
> As Raster has pointed out, the idea that a group of hobbyists is going
> to make a viable phone in their spare time, using parts which are
> collecting dust in Sean's closet, is risible.   The other

well ok - you're harsher... i just wanted to inject reality into it - that it
wont happen without a lot of money - or with hyper-expensive hardware that is
probably well behind the existing "out there" mass market products

> possible future for OM software is anti-vendor ports.   It's hard to
> imagine that the OM software running on something like the Palm Pre
> will work more smoothly than the same software running on the OM
> hardware, for which the developers did not have to reverse engineer
> many things.   So if the anti-vendor ports are successful, we'll
> end up being able to turn something like the Palm Pre into a buggy
> hobbyist toy like the FreeRunner.   Hooray!

ahahhaha :) tho palm pre would be relatively easy - it's openembedded. its
omap3 where most of it is documented and open (excluding 3d unit). but... i get
your point :)

> Some in the OM community seem to suggest that if vendors *just knew*
> that they could have the wonderful SHR software for free, they'd
> design phones around it.   I disagree.   There is very little incentive
> for vendors and telecoms to support open systems, and plenty of reasons
> for them not to.   From a vendor's point of view, selling a phone
> that the user has full control of is a nightmare.   If something
> like the SHR stack ever actually entered widespread use, it would
> be the perfect platform for malware.   Users would be bricking their
> phones right and left.   Calls to service centers would go way up.
> Phone networks would be subject to DOS attacks.

well that's a bit extreme - as technically android and the nexus one or adp1
are pretty much this too. but you are right - this is a big fear inside
companies - you can rave on about open and benefits all you like - they are
scared of this kind of scenario and the bad publicity that comes along with it.
you need to loll them in gently one little thing at a time so they gain
confidence. let them get a little more open, see that it has no big bad side
effects - of anything positive ones, then the next small little thing. tryin
big-bang to do everything from hw to sw open is going to net you no love from
an existing maker. doing your own i dont see as viable - so you need to take a
new strategy. as i've explained already. :)

> The only reason that PCs are general purpose computers is a historical
> accident - PCs grew out of the hobbyist market, and hobbyists wanted
> a machine they could program.   There was no threat of external malware
> in the early 1980s.   The constant fight against PC malware is the price
> we now pay for that heritage.   Most PC users would be better off with
> a machine that 

Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:41:24 -0800 (PST) Rafael Ignacio Zurita
 said:

> Hello,
> 
> --- On Thu, 2/25/10, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra  wrote:
> > Em 25-02-2010 01:39, Carsten Haitzler
> > (The Rasterman) escreveu:
> > > boys with the big pots of money are surprisingly close
> [snip]
> > > compromises. but you can get some of it at least.
> > 
> > Oh come on, don't beat them with a stick, if you don't have people
> > working on this now, then when the time comes there will be pretty much
> > nothing to show and all the time of development will have to start
> > *then* instead of now :)
> > 
> > The beauty of these communities thing is that one resource spent in
> > developping gta02-core is not one resource not spent in SHR because (and
> > I might be wrong here because I'm not into gta02-core) most likely
> > gta02-core people don't feel as excited writing software for a
> > smartphone environment (PIM, call support, other apps, etc...).
> > 
> > As such, gta02-core people are not diminishing SHR people, but
> > complementing.
> 
> You are right and that is my point. 
> 
> The other bits around about big companies with money
> doing propietary stuff is off topic; since the original
> thread mail was intended to talk about community
> projects which learn the proper software/hardware
> development processes needed for an open mobile phone,
> no about who is going to do a product for the 95% of
> the market and which is that product.
> 
> Sorry for my english guys, maybe I did not explain
> the idea very well.

i'm getting at the fact that the hw side is stuck - it wont work without a pot
of gold. the hw side that WORKS are the big companies with lots of pots of gold
already. if you want to make something work - work with them on the software
side... but you are free to ignore this advice and continue with your idea that
you "need to work on the process" as you'll be working on it without anything
being produced for a vry long time (read - never) unless you
find a pot of gold. it's the hw side  that has these costs that unlike
software, can't be replaced by someone simply spending their time on
evenings/weekends. it costs real money - get your pot of gold and it can
happen, or ork with those who already have the pots of gold - and produce
hardware. until then you're an armchair sportsman. you can yell about how that
pass was bad or whatever... you won't affect the game - ever. you'll just cover
your tv with spittle. :)


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:18:31 +0530 rakshat hooja  said:

> > but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most
> > people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos
> > device
> > for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your phone can
> > make use of all that data...
> >
> 
> Lets take the desktop analogy further I use a 2004 Tosiba laptop with a
> celeron processor (ubuntu ) as my main laptop still. 6 years down the line
> the "modern" internet runs perfectly on it (modern games pretty much don't
> :).  Firefox renders pretty much everything, Java works, maps, banking,
> server hosted apps, social networking sites; everything really does work.

probably because you're a nerd and don't use what regular people do - regular
peolpe use sites covered in flash - and with a 2ghz celeron and 2gb of ram...
things bog down... and i hear the whingeing all the time. i keep saying "close
firefox - dont have 12 tabs open each with 5 flash ads and so on" but that
doesnt change. behavior doesnt change - there is an insistence that no matter
what they do - things work properly. and it gets worse month after month. yes -
it's linux. people do more and want more. and the internet requires more. i
100% disagree that the itnernet of 1997 uses the same browser and local
resources of the internet 2010 for the vast majority of people. it squarely
does not. and every year those resources needed goes up.

> Now I have two employees in my 3 people company and both my employees have
> had their laptops upgraded (at my cost). One has a fancy HP with one of the
> latest intel processors and the other a macbook. Did they really need these
> upgardes to use the modern evolving web? No. But they definitely felt that
> they needed the latest hardware to be productive in their work.
> 
> Why am i mentioning all these anecdotes. Because I feel that they highlight
> the fact that people will always want the latest and fanciest hardware they
> can afford but at the sametime its just BS to say you need the latest
> hardware to run the evolving internet. Snapdragon is cool but the 233 MHz
> samsung in the Neo 1973 is still more than capable of handling anything the
> mobile internet has thrown up till now (if designed properly - like raster
> is right about the qvga screen in the OM phones).

but at vga.. it's pushing it. and as more stuff becomes js and ajax.. html5 -
this wil change. as you dont have flash - you havent noticed. add flash in and
you'll think otherwise. and dont go blaming flash - flash uses those resoruces
because of the richer things it does and people like and WANT those. and as js
+html5/ajax etc. do more of what flash has been doing you will see the same
resource issues in "regular browsers".

> I do buy the 3G module and lisense cost issues and till date I don't see how
> this can be worked around for a fully open phone.
> 
> Anyway Qi's roadmap does say Open Phone in 2012
> 
> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Roadmap

aaah roadmaps. how many i have seen and how many of them are filled with
complete bunk - by this i mean there is little to no REALITY behind them - they
are wishlists, not firm schedules that can be done. i do hope qi manages to get
there - i wish wolfgan all the best in getting there - but i know how hard it
really is - he does too. it's monumentally difficult. and its difficult even if
you have a pot of gold.

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:04:26 -0500 "Gay, John (GE Infra, Energy, Non-GE)"
 said:

> As rasterman knows quite a bit more about hardware than most people I
> know, I'm curious to know his opinion on the Flow G1.5 and up-coming G2
> from Gizmo for you?
> 
> http://www.gizmoforyou.net/site/
> 
> Sounds at least as open hardware-wise and Openmoko was and seems to
> actually be available for a price, though a rather high one.
> 
> I also find the game platform and general-purpose daughter card rather
> interesting.

i think it's interesting. it's about the closest you can come to the "guys with
a pot of gold" and some hw. but - comparing it to a normal smartphone is hard.
it'd rough/ its bulky - very bulky. it's pretty old technology - except for the
cpu *gumstix) unit. the 3g unit seems decent. no idea of reception etc.

that price of 586 eur ($793 - lets say $800) (plus shipping etc.) is also
double the freerunner. and people bitched on how expensive it was (it wasn't
really they are just used to subsidised prices). now it's unclear if they
include the gumstix daughterboards or not as its the same price. i think you
need to buy them in addition (add $219 or $149 + shipping for these from
gumstix (the $219 will approximate a phone like the pre/n900 etc. as you get
bt, wifi 3d and dsp - the $149 earth has no wifi, bt, dsp or 3d - so you lose
all of them for the drop in price).

so... $800 + $220 + 2 lots of shipping (lets say $20 shipping for each - really
generous as it can be a LOT more (or a little less))... so... $800 + $220 + $20
+ $20 - $1060. so.. thats your price for a rough phone - yes. it's pretty open.
yes - it's a tinkerers dream. but its more than 2x the price of an n900 - and
the n900 is even a little smaller (same thickness) and comes with hw keyboard
and better resolution screen, mountains more onboard flash (32m) as well as the
micro-sd slot. so as such just comparing the devices - the n900 is 50% of the
price and a better unit - but it's not open. and the n900 is one of the
bulkiest things around in recent times. also you get no warranty :) but thats
the price of tinkerability.

so - flow - interesting. rather cool actually, but pretty rough and ugly,
expensive, troublesome (need to put it together yourself). also it's android -
so you'll need to port shr/debian/whatever  to it (well get it up) if you dont
want android (if all you want is android theres lots more nicer devices that
are cheaper - but you may be a "i must have open hardware" guy so who knows).

so all in all it's as close as you get if you must have open hw you can swizzle
- but you pay a hefty premium for it. it's also bulky and rather rough
(looks-wise). i don't think i'd pay for it. but thats my choice. it simply
doesnt present good value compared to the hardware that's there.

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:31:48 +0800 William Kenworthy  said:

> > but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most
> > people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos
> > device for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your
> > phone can make use of all that data...
> > 
> Also dont forget "progress" - here in Western Australia GSM coverage is
> static and may even be shrinking, where 3G is already far greater and
> expanding.  The freerunner is a phone only as long as a network is
> available to connect to - as I found out when on holiday last year.
> Think driving hundreds of kilometers with no connection at all, where a
> 3G phone at least had a connection at many places.
> 
> GSM obsolete here :(

just wait until the LTE (or whatever comes after 3.5g) craze comes. gsm likely
will start being dismantled - i know if i travel to korea or japan i NEED a 3g
phone. 2g just doesnt work as they have no gsm/gprs etc. networks at all - only
3g.

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[William Kenworthy]

On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 02:10 +1100, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:00:49 +0100 ri...@happyleptic.org said:
> 
> > -[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:47:35PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ]
> > > a phone to make 40k units would be easily double that - if not triple. and
> > > thats 2g only. 3g will bump that up again.
> > 
> > I don't know for other countries, but here in France the majority of
> > 3g subscribers never use it. All day long you can see adds on TV trying
> > to sell video calls, TV on phone, etc, yet you could pack in a bus all
> > the people that actually _use_ these services.
> 
> internet. need i say more. as such its actually used here in australia, and in
> japan, and korea, and the usa, etc. - people really do use phones for looking
> up stuff, maps (yes downloading the  maps as you go), blogging, instant
> messaging and email - oh god email. sure - video calls, tv etc. are pretty 
> moot
> - but the other things definitely use 3g - there is a big difference between 
> 2g
> and 3g for speed when it comes to loading web pages. not to mention cost-wise 
> -
> 2g and 3g get priced differently with 3g being much much much cheaper for data
> in au than 2g generally (cheapest telco for data is 3 and they are 3g only - 
> 2g
> data rates are just silly. 3g data is cheap).
> 
> but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most
> people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos 
> device
> for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your phone can
> make use of all that data...
> 
Also dont forget "progress" - here in Western Australia GSM coverage is
static and may even be shrinking, where 3G is already far greater and
expanding.  The freerunner is a phone only as long as a network is
available to connect to - as I found out when on holiday last year.
Think driving hundreds of kilometers with no connection at all, where a
3G phone at least had a connection at many places.

GSM obsolete here :(

BillK



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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[Rafael Ignacio Zurita]

Hello,

--- On Thu, 2/25/10, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra  wrote:
> Em 25-02-2010 01:39, Carsten Haitzler
> (The Rasterman) escreveu:
> > boys with the big pots of money are surprisingly close
[snip]
> > compromises. but you can get some of it at least.
> 
> Oh come on, don't beat them with a stick, if you don't have people
> working on this now, then when the time comes there will be pretty much
> nothing to show and all the time of development will have to start
> *then* instead of now :)
> 
> The beauty of these communities thing is that one resource spent in
> developping gta02-core is not one resource not spent in SHR because (and
> I might be wrong here because I'm not into gta02-core) most likely
> gta02-core people don't feel as excited writing software for a
> smartphone environment (PIM, call support, other apps, etc...).
> 
> As such, gta02-core people are not diminishing SHR people, but
> complementing.

You are right and that is my point. 

The other bits around about big companies with money
doing propietary stuff is off topic; since the original
thread mail was intended to talk about community
projects which learn the proper software/hardware
development processes needed for an open mobile phone,
no about who is going to do a product for the 95% of
the market and which is that product.

Sorry for my english guys, maybe I did not explain
the idea very well.

Rafael


  


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[Kosa]

rakshat hooja escribió:

> 
> Anyway Qi's roadmap does say Open Phone in 2012
> 
> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Roadmap
> 
> So we continue to dream :)
> 

It says 2011 :)

Cheers!

Kosa

- Un mundo mejor es posible -


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[rakshat hooja]

> internet. need i say more. as such its actually used here in australia, and
> in
> japan, and korea, and the usa, etc. - people really do use phones for
> looking
> up stuff, maps (yes downloading the  maps as you go), blogging, instant
> messaging and email - oh god email. sure - video calls, tv etc. are pretty
> moot
> - but the other things definitely use 3g - there is a big difference
> between 2g
> and 3g for speed when it comes to loading web pages. not to mention
> cost-wise -
> 2g and 3g get priced differently with 3g being much much much cheaper for
> data
> in au than 2g generally (cheapest telco for data is 3 and they are 3g only
> - 2g
> data rates are just silly. 3g data is cheap).
>
> but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most
> people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos
> device
> for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your phone can
> make use of all that data...
>

Lets take the desktop analogy further I use a 2004 Tosiba laptop with a
celeron processor (ubuntu ) as my main laptop still. 6 years down the line
the "modern" internet runs perfectly on it (modern games pretty much don't
:).  Firefox renders pretty much everything, Java works, maps, banking,
server hosted apps, social networking sites; everything really does work.

Now I have two employees in my 3 people company and both my employees have
had their laptops upgraded (at my cost). One has a fancy HP with one of the
latest intel processors and the other a macbook. Did they really need these
upgardes to use the modern evolving web? No. But they definitely felt that
they needed the latest hardware to be productive in their work.

Why am i mentioning all these anecdotes. Because I feel that they highlight
the fact that people will always want the latest and fanciest hardware they
can afford but at the sametime its just BS to say you need the latest
hardware to run the evolving internet. Snapdragon is cool but the 233 MHz
samsung in the Neo 1973 is still more than capable of handling anything the
mobile internet has thrown up till now (if designed properly - like raster
is right about the qvga screen in the OM phones).

I do buy the 3G module and lisense cost issues and till date I don't see how
this can be worked around for a fully open phone.

Anyway Qi's roadmap does say Open Phone in 2012

http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Roadmap

So we continue to dream :)

Rakshat



>
> --
> - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
> The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com
>
>
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gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[Ken Young]

Wolfgang Spraul  wrote:

> If the FreeRunner would be bug free, I'm
> sure people would still use them in 10+ years, easily.

The truth is that even though the Freerunner is buggy as hell,
some people will still be using them in 10+ years.   Face it, we are
now in the same boat as the Apple Newton fanatics.   We play with
phones, because we enjoy playing with phones.   There is no viable
business model here.   None.

Openmoko Inc had a far better shot at success than any open phone
manufacturer will have again for the foreseeable future.   When the
Neo 1973 came out, there were no mass-market linux phones available.
The competition was relatively weak back then.   And still Openomoko
was not able to make a go of it.   Perhaps better management would
have made a difference.   But that doesn't matter now.   If you go
to the maemo IRC channel these days, it's like an Openmoko reunion.
The people who want to make applications for a linux phone have
moved on.   They were a significant part of the Openmoko community,
and they want a linux phone that works.   If a gta03 were
to go on sale tomorrow, I believe it would sell more poorly than
the gta02 did.   And the gta02 didn't sell enough units to keep Openmoko
Inc in the phone business.   The gta02-core and gta03 are of interest
only to a proper subset of the people who were originally interested in
Openmoko phones.

As Raster has pointed out, the idea that a group of hobbyists is going
to make a viable phone in their spare time, using parts which are
collecting dust in Sean's closet, is risible.   The other
possible future for OM software is anti-vendor ports.   It's hard to
imagine that the OM software running on something like the Palm Pre
will work more smoothly than the same software running on the OM
hardware, for which the developers did not have to reverse engineer
many things.   So if the anti-vendor ports are successful, we'll
end up being able to turn something like the Palm Pre into a buggy
hobbyist toy like the FreeRunner.   Hooray!

Some in the OM community seem to suggest that if vendors *just knew*
that they could have the wonderful SHR software for free, they'd
design phones around it.   I disagree.   There is very little incentive
for vendors and telecoms to support open systems, and plenty of reasons
for them not to.   From a vendor's point of view, selling a phone
that the user has full control of is a nightmare.   If something
like the SHR stack ever actually entered widespread use, it would
be the perfect platform for malware.   Users would be bricking their
phones right and left.   Calls to service centers would go way up.
Phone networks would be subject to DOS attacks.
The only reason that PCs are general purpose computers is a historical
accident - PCs grew out of the hobbyist market, and hobbyists wanted
a machine they could program.   There was no threat of external malware
in the early 1980s.   The constant fight against PC malware is the price
we now pay for that heritage.   Most PC users would be better off with
a machine that came with a web browser, a few tools for photo manipulation
and multimedia, and which could not have any additional software installed.
With smart phones, the industry has a chance to replay history.   They
can make the platform closed, and largely prevent the whole malware
nightmare.   They can reduce the universe of software configurations they
have to support.   It makes sense for them to do that.

Sad as it is for us, the most sensible approach for phone makers is
probably Apple's.

I enjoy playing with my Freerunners, and my Neo 1973.   Others do too.
But be honest with yourself - these phones are a dead end.   At this point
we are like the nut-cases who want to run linux on their iPods.

Ken


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RE: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[Gay, John (GE Infra, Energy, Non-GE)]

As rasterman knows quite a bit more about hardware than most people I
know, I'm curious to know his opinion on the Flow G1.5 and up-coming G2
from Gizmo for you?

http://www.gizmoforyou.net/site/

Sounds at least as open hardware-wise and Openmoko was and seems to
actually be available for a price, though a rather high one.

I also find the game platform and general-purpose daughter card rather
interesting.

Cheers,

John Gay

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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:00:49 +0100 ri...@happyleptic.org said:

> -[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:47:35PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ]
> > a phone to make 40k units would be easily double that - if not triple. and
> > thats 2g only. 3g will bump that up again.
> 
> I don't know for other countries, but here in France the majority of
> 3g subscribers never use it. All day long you can see adds on TV trying
> to sell video calls, TV on phone, etc, yet you could pack in a bus all
> the people that actually _use_ these services.

internet. need i say more. as such its actually used here in australia, and in
japan, and korea, and the usa, etc. - people really do use phones for looking
up stuff, maps (yes downloading the  maps as you go), blogging, instant
messaging and email - oh god email. sure - video calls, tv etc. are pretty moot
- but the other things definitely use 3g - there is a big difference between 2g
and 3g for speed when it comes to loading web pages. not to mention cost-wise -
2g and 3g get priced differently with 3g being much much much cheaper for data
in au than 2g generally (cheapest telco for data is 3 and they are 3g only - 2g
data rates are just silly. 3g data is cheap).

but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most
people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos device
for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your phone can
make use of all that data...

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[rixed]

-[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:47:35PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ]
> a phone to make 40k units would be easily double that - if not triple. and
> thats 2g only. 3g will bump that up again.

I don't know for other countries, but here in France the majority of
3g subscribers never use it. All day long you can see adds on TV trying
to sell video calls, TV on phone, etc, yet you could pack in a bus all
the people that actually _use_ these services.


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[rixed]

Glad I read this. I completely agree, yet I would like to add another thing :

Lets consider the whole market for mobile devices. It's composed for one part of
the yupee techno addicts that want the latest gadget around, and for the other
part by other people that have either no special attraction to technology, or
not the budget to buy the latest gadget, or not the desire to confront the
latest, buggiest and more complex devices.

Like the PC market is composed for one part of the gamers who want the latest
chips and can endure painful configuration and frequent crashes, and for the
other part by normal people with simple needs who are more than happy with an
EEE desktop (for instance).

Due to our occupation and jobs we are probably all surrounded by the former
kind of person, plus the advertisements everywhere suggest that everyone have
or want the latest gadget, but honestly which part of the market looks like a
niche ?


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[-= Apertum =-]

* Wolfgang Spraul wrote, Il 25/02/2010 12:54:
> There definitely is another way. Must be. Business opportunity!
> Let's see how long people will be using their FreeRunners, and how long
> they will be using their N900... If the FreeRunner would be bug free, I'm
> sure people would still use them in 10+ years, easily.
>   

I agree here, totally.

And IMHO openess *should* be different in this aspect: it *must* be
detached from a consumerism centered economy. But these products must be
really bug free and working very well.

Unfortunately it's still not the case of the FreeRunner (hardware side
*and* software side).

-- 
Andrea

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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:54:35 + Wolfgang Spraul  said:

> raster,
> 
> > may be waiting forever. if it does happen you'll find yourself comparing to
> > "iphone 4g" or "nexus 2" or whatever is now out in the 95% of the market.
> > and then crying why it sucks so much in comparison. that was already the
> > case for freerunner. like it or not there is an expectation of at least
> > being in the same ballpark - and as such the big-boys ballpark keeps
> > drifting further away from the "open" one. i think it's better to make the
> > big ballpark have more
> 
> I do think there is a 3rd way. The gigahertz/gigabyte race is not the only
> race in town. Let them have it.
> A product that just works very well always has a chance. Usability race. Put
> people and their real needs and real ability to understand and use products
> in the center. Don't give a damn if everybody around you goes from 2GHz to
> 3GHz. Again, no hard feelings, let them have it their way.
> 
> But there is room for slow made (but still high-tech) products. Product
> cycles that are so long that they allow real feedback to trickle back from
> users to creators. What we have now is that most feedback is ignored because
> by the time it reaches the creators, they are already 2 generations ahead.
> 
> Plus I have to say - the industry is turning into a produce trash throw-away
> trash industry so fast I couldn't even imagine.
> Even I gave in now: When I shop for a DVD player, I buy the cheapest.
> Absolutely the cheapest. No prisoners taken.
> Inevitably, some X months later, I run into the first (officially bought) DVD
> with latest-and-greatest DRM tricks on it that won't play. Now I throw away my
> player and get a new one (of course cheapest again).
> This system works quite well.
> But it's insane!
> 
> The phone industry is cranking out 1+ billion phones a year.
> Very soon they need to increase the crappiness and "won't fix" features in
> their products so they have a chance to sell the billions more already in the
> pipeline.
> There definitely is another way. Must be. Business opportunity!
> Let's see how long people will be using their FreeRunners, and how long
> they will be using their N900... If the FreeRunner would be bug free, I'm
> sure people would still use them in 10+ years, easily.
> 
> Way to go gta02-core, and way to go osmocom!
> Wolfgang

aaah - the race to the bottom. indeed. thats one way - but that kind of solves
itself - whatever the smartphones used 3-4 years ago now is cheap as chips.
also remember - dvds havent changed. its the same requirement as when they came
out. phones and pc's are in a different world - well if the phone does more
than just make calls. they have to deal with apps.. and worse - the internet.
the web. and that evolves and changes every day - needing more and
more resources on your "interface to the internude". were it to be like dvd's
where the requirements dont change... it'd get awesomely cheap - but luckily
for the hw industry.. thats not the case... so they get to sell u
faster/bigger/better.. just to keep up with "the internet" how it is now. :)

let's see - if things get smaller/faster/more efficient web etc. wise.. this
may change - but i dont see that happening any time soon.

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[Wolfgang Spraul]

gt; give it some time. :)
> 
> and it *IS* a niche. by open products i mean the ones where you open up
> everything - source and hardware and the target market DEMANDS open or you 
> wont
> sell anything. that market will remain niche for a very long time - if ever.
> the general "i dont care much as long as it has cool apps and makes calls and
> does its job" market will be 95% (number pulled out of arse - meaning vast
> majority) of the market. thats that's what the big boys cater to. and thats
> where all the best hardware is - the kind nerds so dearly want to be open so
> they too can play with it.
> 
> the way to go (imho) is to make that 95% have more openness to it - android 
> was
> a big start - maemeo is also a big positive there - as is moblin.. and now the
> "meego". no - not 100% open, but its working its way there.
> 
> if you are going to hanging out and wait for gta02-core to make a p0hone - you
> may be waiting forever. if it does happen you'll find yourself comparing to
> "iphone 4g" or "nexus 2" or whatever is now out in the 95% of the market. and
> then crying why it sucks so much in comparison. that was already the case for
> freerunner. like it or not there is an expectation of at least being in the
> same ballpark - and as such the big-boys ballpark keeps drifting further away
> from the "open" one. i think it's better to make the big ballpark have more
> open in it than to stick to the dminishing distant "pure open" island far from
> everything interesting :(
> 
> > Ghislain
> > http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend  -  http://www.openmobile.nl 
> > openmobile.nl 
> > 
> > -- 
> > View this message in context:
> > http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631828.html Sent
> > from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > 
> > ___
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> > 
> 
> 
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> - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
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> 
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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

ove :)

> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 02:36:22AM -0800, ghislain wrote:
> > 
> > What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page).
> > They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't
> > know about the funding).
> > Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a
> > reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of
> > the fun).
> > 
> > Ghislain
> > http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend  -  http://www.openmobile.nl
> > openmobile.nl 
> > -- 
> > View this message in context:
> > http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631684.html
> > Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > 
> > ___
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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 03:10:21 -0800 (PST) ghislain  said:

> 
> 
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)-2 wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:36:22 -0800 (PST) ghislain 
> > said:
> > 
> >> 
> >> What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page).
> >> They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I
> >> don't
> >> know about the funding).
> > 
> > i dont need yet another mini pda. i have a small army of them - that dont
> > replace the phone junk in my pocket. i - and i would say the vast majority
> > of
> > people, dont want multiple things in their pockets - why do u think pda's
> > are
> > dead? they want 1, and the phone trumped all of it for communications
> > reasons.
> > if you dont have a phone you instantly made your potential market a lot
> > smaller. if it doesnt fit in a pocket easily - you just shrunk your market
> > significantly. the more you move your product into a market niche, the
> > more
> > likely it is to fail due to just not making enough volume. open products
> > is
> > already a niche.

nanonote is a fair bit simpler than a phone - much less RF, no complex fcc
testing (and every body on the planet) to get certification, no modem at all so
skipping one of the big problem areas - its very simple. its not a bad little
toy - but its a far cry from a phone. ask wolfgang - he's behind nanonote - ex
openmoko. he didnt learn from nanonote - he learned from om to make nanonote.
why do u think its not a phone? because a phone is way more expensive - and
harder.

> It was not an example of what you need, it was an example of how they did it
> and what we can learn of it. Also, it's not 'yet another mini pda', because
> of it's openness you can use it the way you want, just use your imagination
> and your programming skills :)

sure - i can do that with my smartq5 too and my other myriad of toys. none of
them replace my phone - and making a phone is complex and expensive.

> Your statement 'open products is already a niche' is the exact statement I
> heard 15-years ago about open-software. We are just at the beginning, just
> give it some time. :)

and it *IS* a niche. by open products i mean the ones where you open up
everything - source and hardware and the target market DEMANDS open or you wont
sell anything. that market will remain niche for a very long time - if ever.
the general "i dont care much as long as it has cool apps and makes calls and
does its job" market will be 95% (number pulled out of arse - meaning vast
majority) of the market. thats that's what the big boys cater to. and thats
where all the best hardware is - the kind nerds so dearly want to be open so
they too can play with it.

the way to go (imho) is to make that 95% have more openness to it - android was
a big start - maemeo is also a big positive there - as is moblin.. and now the
"meego". no - not 100% open, but its working its way there.

if you are going to hanging out and wait for gta02-core to make a p0hone - you
may be waiting forever. if it does happen you'll find yourself comparing to
"iphone 4g" or "nexus 2" or whatever is now out in the 95% of the market. and
then crying why it sucks so much in comparison. that was already the case for
freerunner. like it or not there is an expectation of at least being in the
same ballpark - and as such the big-boys ballpark keeps drifting further away
from the "open" one. i think it's better to make the big ballpark have more
open in it than to stick to the dminishing distant "pure open" island far from
everything interesting :(

> Ghislain
> http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend  -  http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl 
> 
> -- 
> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631828.html Sent
> from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[Wolfgang Spraul]

Ghislain,

> They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't
> know about the funding).

even that is open :-) (scroll down to second part)
http://en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/developer/2010-February/001918.html

> Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a
> reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of
> the fun).

Phone is super hard. I finally agree with rasterman on something and share
most of what he said earlier in this thread about the economics of getting
an 'open' hardware project going. It's tough. And the phone is the toughest
of them all.
OpenPandora took 4000 pre-orders and financed it that way, hopefully they
will make it, they still have a long way to go, product wise and company wise.

For the phone, what do you guys think about the osmocom project by Harald
and friends?
http://bb.osmocom.org

>From what I understand so far, they will continue to hack their way to make
a GPL GSM stack work with Calypso RF/DSP chips, and later maybe MTK chips.
The RF chips themselves are way out of reach for any of us (to make our own
open version), even way harder than the GPL'ed Milkymist SoC I think we will
get eventually [1] [2].
So to build a phone around osmocom, we have to reuse MTK RF/DSP chips?
Anybody interested in financing it? :-)

raster - do you want to pre-order one osmocom phone for 1M USD as you said?
You have OpenPandora experience already, this one could only be better.
On steroids! What do you think?
Wolfgang

[1] http://www.milkymist.org
[2] http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 02:36:22AM -0800, ghislain wrote:
> 
> What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page).
> They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't
> know about the funding).
> Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a
> reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of
> the fun).
> 
> Ghislain
> http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend  -  http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl 
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631684.html
> Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[ghislain]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)-2 wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:36:22 -0800 (PST) ghislain 
> said:
> 
>> 
>> What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page).
>> They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I
>> don't
>> know about the funding).
> 
> i dont need yet another mini pda. i have a small army of them - that dont
> replace the phone junk in my pocket. i - and i would say the vast majority
> of
> people, dont want multiple things in their pockets - why do u think pda's
> are
> dead? they want 1, and the phone trumped all of it for communications
> reasons.
> if you dont have a phone you instantly made your potential market a lot
> smaller. if it doesnt fit in a pocket easily - you just shrunk your market
> significantly. the more you move your product into a market niche, the
> more
> likely it is to fail due to just not making enough volume. open products
> is
> already a niche.
> 
> 

It was not an example of what you need, it was an example of how they did it
and what we can learn of it. Also, it's not 'yet another mini pda', because
of it's openness you can use it the way you want, just use your imagination
and your programming skills :)
Your statement 'open products is already a niche' is the exact statement I
heard 15-years ago about open-software. We are just at the beginning, just
give it some time. :)

Ghislain
http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend  -  http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl 

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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:36:22 -0800 (PST) ghislain  said:

> 
> What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page).
> They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't
> know about the funding).

i dont need yet another mini pda. i have a small army of them - that dont
replace the phone junk in my pocket. i - and i would say the vast majority of
people, dont want multiple things in their pockets - why do u think pda's are
dead? they want 1, and the phone trumped all of it for communications reasons.
if you dont have a phone you instantly made your potential market a lot
smaller. if it doesnt fit in a pocket easily - you just shrunk your market
significantly. the more you move your product into a market niche, the more
likely it is to fail due to just not making enough volume. open products is
already a niche.

> Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a
> reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of
> the fun).
> 
> Ghislain
> http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend  -  http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl 
> -- 
> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631684.html Sent
> from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
> ___
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> 


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:50:36 +0100 ri...@happyleptic.org said:

> -[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 09:20:56PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ]
> > openpandora is a wonderful example of a big fat FAIL on this. it's last
> > time my money goes to any such group/venture.
> 
> The fact is they proved community does not need to be backed up by
> an industrial pot of gold to build this kind of hardware.
> 
> Your personal feelings about the overall outcome is not on topic but
> as far as I can tell from the gp32x forums many people do not consider the
> project as a failure.

they created a pot of gold by lieing to people and getting them to part with
their money. they said it would be shipped by a date (2 or 3 months after you
paid). it still has not shipped. i dont call that a success. i dont care how
much it might be "but that was unexpected delays". a few weeks ok - a few
months. ok. almost 1.5 years of delay and still not shipped - after asking for
money and giving a shipping date almost 1.5 years ago - fail.

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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[rixed]

-[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 09:20:56PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ]
> openpandora is a wonderful example of a big fat FAIL on this. it's last time 
> my
> money goes to any such group/venture.

The fact is they proved community does not need to be backed up by
an industrial pot of gold to build this kind of hardware.

Your personal feelings about the overall outcome is not on topic but
as far as I can tell from the gp32x forums many people do not consider the
project as a failure.


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[ghislain]

What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page).
They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't
know about the funding).
Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a
reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of
the fun).

Ghislain
http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend  -  http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl 
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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:07:54 +0100 ri...@happyleptic.org said:

> Community can be another "pot of gold". You can preorder the phones,
> raise funds, etc (see blender, or wikipedia...).
> 
> That's how the small team behind the openpandora was successful.
> Yes, the openpandora is not a phone and thus needs less paperwork,
> administrative authorization and license fees, but on the other hand
> they build a gadget that was top-notch technology at the time of
> design (and still far from being outperformed by competition).

successful? when they took your money 1.5 years ago promised to ship 1.25 years
ago.. and still have not? sitting on your money? aweesome. trust me
- it's already outperformed by things like the nexus-1 or a slew of other htc
stuff - the new snapdragon based soc's and more. by double or more. and it
still has yet to ship a single unit. these others have been shipping for ages
(1ghz shnapragon windows mobile toshiba phone been going for a while now).

openpandora is a wonderful example of a big fat FAIL on this. it's last time my
money goes to any such group/venture.

-- 
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The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[rixed]

Community can be another "pot of gold". You can preorder the phones,
raise funds, etc (see blender, or wikipedia...).

That's how the small team behind the openpandora was successful.
Yes, the openpandora is not a phone and thus needs less paperwork,
administrative authorization and license fees, but on the other hand
they build a gadget that was top-notch technology at the time of
design (and still far from being outperformed by competition).



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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:41:42 + Rui Miguel Silva Seabra  said:

> Em 25-02-2010 01:39, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) escreveu:
> > boys with the big pots of money are surprisingly close there. rome wasn't
> > built in one day. fight the battles you can win - dont fight the impossible
> > ones. sure - it's not as glorious. it's not as sexy. but it gets you one
> > small step closer to where you'd like to be. you may never get it. that's
> > the nature of compromises. but you can get some of it at least.
> 
> Oh come on, don't beat them with a stick, if you don't have people
> working on this now, then when the time comes there will be pretty much
> nothing to show and all the time of development will have to start
> *then* instead of now :)
> 
> The beauty of these communities thing is that one resource spent in
> developping gta02-core is not one resource not spent in SHR because (and
> I might be wrong here because I'm not into gta02-core) most likely
> gta02-core people don't feel as excited writing software for a
> smartphone environment (PIM, call support, other apps, etc...).
> 
> As such, gta02-core people are not diminishing SHR people, but
> complementing.

ask werner. he's waiting for the pot of gold to make gta02-core go from files
and plans to product. waiting and waiting for it... and he's right - he needs
the pot of gold. and while he waits - the design ages, components become rarer
ads they age...

unlike software - which has pretty much 0 cost of entry, modification and
distribution other than time and effort - hardware doesn't. thats a fundamental
difference. anyone - if they have source, can modify, improve or whatever some
code with the only real cost being time, production, distribution is basically
free (via compiling+tarring up+download/internet).  hardware is not. every
"Download" is a hefty cost - and that cost is also entirely based on how much
"stock" you prepare for "download" first (100, 1000, 10,000, 100,000, 1,000,000
etc.) and for the lower numbers sometimes production just wont happen as no one
is willing to produce so few. minimum production numbers etc.

you could do a fully open phone 1 at a time. it'd cost $1mil+ per phone. got
the pot of gold to make your own $1mil+ phone? :)

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[Rui Miguel Silva Seabra]

Em 25-02-2010 01:39, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) escreveu:
> boys with the big pots of money are surprisingly close there. rome wasn't 
> built
> in one day. fight the battles you can win - dont fight the impossible ones.
> sure - it's not as glorious. it's not as sexy. but it gets you one small step
> closer to where you'd like to be. you may never get it. that's the nature of
> compromises. but you can get some of it at least.

Oh come on, don't beat them with a stick, if you don't have people
working on this now, then when the time comes there will be pretty much
nothing to show and all the time of development will have to start
*then* instead of now :)

The beauty of these communities thing is that one resource spent in
developping gta02-core is not one resource not spent in SHR because (and
I might be wrong here because I'm not into gta02-core) most likely
gta02-core people don't feel as excited writing software for a
smartphone environment (PIM, call support, other apps, etc...).

As such, gta02-core people are not diminishing SHR people, but
complementing.

Hugs,
Rui

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Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[The Rasterman]

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:57:39 -0800 (PST) Rafael Ignacio Zurita
 said:

> Hi, I think that gta02-core is the key (or part of).
> 
> All of us have been talking about the problems with openmoko hardware
> for years. And because all of us have different ideas and feelings
> we use this list as our psychologist :-)
> 
> But still if there are a lot of different ideas and feelings
> I always read the same conclusions :
> 
>  - Openmoko hardware has problems
>  - There is no other open linux mobile phone like we want
>(open on both, software and hardware sides : without signed
>  bootloader images/etc)
> 
> Also, because we write those feelings all the time, we can read
> the answers from old Openmoko devels who also have differente ideas.
> But, most of them have, as well, the same conclusions :
> 
>  (1) Openmoko failed internally
>  (2) The Openmoko development process was not good
> 
> When we look for alternatives these are always the same,
> from big companies, and with the same features:
> propietary components and perhaps monopolistic. So I guess no,
> there is no open linux mobile phone like most of us want.
> 
> Then, you can find possible (future) alternatives. If you read Raster words
> he says that just a big guy (company) can do a sucessful linux product,
> because it needs money and lots of people. Perhaps that would
> be just a small step toward an complete open Linux mobile phone.
> If lot of little steps are made, some day we may get what we want.
> 
> But, I also feel that gta02-core is another key to fix some
> of the conclusions that ex openmoko developers did, because 
> gta02-core tries to fix the process.
> 
> I read from time to time the gta02-core mailing list, and irc chat log.
> Some people think that that project goes slow and because gta02-core
> won't produce the next gta03 mobile phone, then
> it is useless and a waste of time.
> 
> But no, if you read well, then you will realize that it is a
> community development process, and if this project succeeds then
> the development of a new cool open linux mobile phone may 
> follow similar lines of the gta02-core process documents.
> 
> That would fix the (2), and then you just need a big guy,
> like Raster says, without internal problems like there
> were at (1).
> 
> With (1) and (2) solved, we would have our cool linux device
> wanted, and without bad feelings to go to the psychologist ;-)
> 
> Now, I have not tried to help a lot to gta02-core, and I don't
> know why there are just few people doing all the hard work.
> 
> In few months gta02-core has created and reviewed the component diagrams,
> created and reviewed the schematics (using just open source software),
> found a smt line (from an university) to do the prototipes, written 
> a footprint editor.
> 
> I guess that they need the components kit that Sean/Openmoko inc
> promised, and help of much people from community to continue
> (check the tasks list to do).
> 
> The important thing is that the gta02-core project output will be
> the development process docs and the organisation for that.
> Proper processes and organisation, plus software (linux+fso+shr(distros))
> will give us a great opportunity to find some
> company without internal problems and say them :
> 
> "Hey, we know how to development an open linux mobile phone 
> like it should be, so please, start a new project for
> that kind of hardware and we will point you how to do it" ;) 
> 
> Now, I need to check how to really help more and stop to 
> look for a replacement (which does not exist).
> 
> fso, shr, gta02-core, other distros : thanks!, and keep the great
> job you do.

openmoko managed to produce something at all... because someone (sean) was
lucky enough to find a pot of gold without strings attached making stuff
closed. such a pot of gold is amazingly rare - and if found is of limited size.
unless that pot of gold is used very smartly to bootstrap a self-funding
profitable venture it's all doomed to failure.

gta02-core is waiting for that pot of gold. as such it may wait years for it to
appear - if it ever does. you can design yourself silly - without the money to
buy components in quantities that make them sufficiently cheap and the ability
to fund the certifications, production and all the initial costs before even 1
thing rolls off the line that can be put in a box and shipped to someone...
you're goign to just wait.. and wait... and wait - and in the end your
gta02-core design will not be possible as components you used go out of
circulation and your design is the equivalent of using an 8 bit
microcontroller in todays phones - ie the world moved on and your wonderfully
open design is useless as the world moved on to LTE, 8-core multi-ghz soc's
with multiple gpu cores, and god knows what else and THAT is now considered a
phone - your old design is like saying "hey - i have an open 20mhz 386 here
with a hercules video card, 2mb ram and 75 baud modem! isn't that awesome -
it's OPEN!"... but you s

gta02-core (was Re: OM future)

[Rafael Ignacio Zurita]

Hi, I think that gta02-core is the key (or part of).

All of us have been talking about the problems with openmoko hardware
for years. And because all of us have different ideas and feelings
we use this list as our psychologist :-)

But still if there are a lot of different ideas and feelings
I always read the same conclusions :

 - Openmoko hardware has problems
 - There is no other open linux mobile phone like we want
   (open on both, software and hardware sides : without signed
 bootloader images/etc)

Also, because we write those feelings all the time, we can read
the answers from old Openmoko devels who also have differente ideas.
But, most of them have, as well, the same conclusions :

 (1) Openmoko failed internally
 (2) The Openmoko development process was not good

When we look for alternatives these are always the same,
from big companies, and with the same features:
propietary components and perhaps monopolistic. So I guess no,
there is no open linux mobile phone like most of us want.

Then, you can find possible (future) alternatives. If you read Raster words
he says that just a big guy (company) can do a sucessful linux product,
because it needs money and lots of people. Perhaps that would
be just a small step toward an complete open Linux mobile phone.
If lot of little steps are made, some day we may get what we want.

But, I also feel that gta02-core is another key to fix some
of the conclusions that ex openmoko developers did, because 
gta02-core tries to fix the process.

I read from time to time the gta02-core mailing list, and irc chat log.
Some people think that that project goes slow and because gta02-core
won't produce the next gta03 mobile phone, then
it is useless and a waste of time.

But no, if you read well, then you will realize that it is a
community development process, and if this project succeeds then
the development of a new cool open linux mobile phone may 
follow similar lines of the gta02-core process documents.

That would fix the (2), and then you just need a big guy,
like Raster says, without internal problems like there
were at (1).

With (1) and (2) solved, we would have our cool linux device
wanted, and without bad feelings to go to the psychologist ;-)

Now, I have not tried to help a lot to gta02-core, and I don't
know why there are just few people doing all the hard work.

In few months gta02-core has created and reviewed the component diagrams,
created and reviewed the schematics (using just open source software),
found a smt line (from an university) to do the prototipes, written 
a footprint editor.

I guess that they need the components kit that Sean/Openmoko inc
promised, and help of much people from community to continue
(check the tasks list to do).

The important thing is that the gta02-core project output will be
the development process docs and the organisation for that.
Proper processes and organisation, plus software (linux+fso+shr(distros))
will give us a great opportunity to find some
company without internal problems and say them :

"Hey, we know how to development an open linux mobile phone 
like it should be, so please, start a new project for
that kind of hardware and we will point you how to do it" ;) 

Now, I need to check how to really help more and stop to 
look for a replacement (which does not exist).

fso, shr, gta02-core, other distros : thanks!, and keep the great
job you do.


--
Rafael Ignacio Zurita



  


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Re: OM future

[Toni Mueller]

Hi,

On Tue, 23.02.2010 at 21:45:48 -0800, Mike Crash  wrote:
> other devices and how many software there is for. There is a lot of software
> for Neo ported from desktop, but on Neo unusable.

I *bet* that this is a side-effect of the Neo's initial (hw & sw)
problems, compounded with the ensuing non-takeoff as a bestseller
phone.

If there were lots of units in the field and people knew its name, that
would be a non-issue.


Kind regards,
--Toni++


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Re: OM future

[Toni Mueller]

Hi,

On Tue, 23.02.2010 at 01:05:31 -0800, Mike Crash  wrote:
> Actually, I don't know, why everybody needs a phone.

I can answer that: I want a fully open phone that I can configure to
meet *my* needs. If I am allowed to dream a bit, despite my OM not
being in good working order yet, I'd like a phone that has no known
bugs for whatever "service" you might think of, which sports high-grade
encryption as a standard feature (ie, zphone), and can seamlessly be
used as a device on a PBX, too (possibly with semi-automatic handover
when entering/leaving an an appropriate wifi zone).

> The community should aim at simple PDA with GPS, WiFi, BT and camera.
+ IR
> This all is without any license fees and can be made to work.

That would also be good, but generally, I'd prefer to have only one
device to carry around. That's why I often don't have my camera with me
- it's too bulky already.

Also, this device needs some way to hook up to the Internet, so I can
surf and read emails, and ssh into one of my machines. And there you
have it again, the airwave part that would not be part of your PDA
design.

> but what I need always - is a phone. I want to call when I'm in a car, in a
> bus stop, in a restaurant, in a wood and I don't want to break my
> navigation, mailing, browsing every time I get a phone.

I don't want to do that, either, but poking at one of "accept/reject"
should not cause much interruption. For the rest of the problem, you
have headphones or an external mike + speaker combo.

> with OLED display (LCD is out). Camera would be nice, but not needed. Forget

I'd very much appreciate a camera, too.

> the phone, it will be always problem for open source.

Then that's required to change, imho. I'm just not prepared to accept
this kind of limitation.

> There is not big problem in designing such a device. And also, it will have
> longer life then a phone.

Why? GSM and UMTS technology change ever 10 years or so, but this PDA
stuff changes all the time.

> it? It needs to manufacture thousands of units - so thousands of buyers.
> Will be?

Not while my GTA2 is generally ok. After that, maybe (ie, for probably
500 Euros at most, _system_ price).

> We can create a phone as a next step in the future, but not now. This is a
> very bad idea.

I can't judge that, but have my set of requirements that I have
outlined above. Whichever device will meet them in a useful fashion,
will probably end up in my pocket, although only one piece.


Kind regards,
--Toni++


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Re: OM future

[Marcus Bauer]

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:14:39 -0500
"Iain B. Findleton"  wrote:

> Does anybody out there know what the financial envelope for, say, a
> run of 100 Neos with the accumulated hardware improvements, g3, and
> double the memory would be? I am thinking a custom application here...

if you do considerable changes to the hardware -and adding 3g is
considerable- you need to recertify it (FCC, CE etc.). you should have
roughly 1.000.000$ loose change in your pockets.

unless your customer is rms, you might consider other options...

marcus 


> 
> I also suspect that a faster processor and support for higher capacity
> SD cards could be nice.
> 
> Gerald A wrote:
> > Heya,
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Radek Polak  > > wrote:
> >
> > On Tuesday 23 February 2010 10:05:31 Mike Crash wrote:
> >
> > > We can create a phone as a next step in the future, but not
> > > now.
> > This is a
> > > very bad idea.
> >
> > I cant agree. I have N770 which is great PDA. If Neo was just
> > PDA i would
> > never bought it.
> >
> >
> > I agree 100%. I have a few different Palms, which were much cheaper
> > then the Neo. It was the vision that inspired me, and I'm sure will
> > inspire others.
> >  
> >
> > Neo is very nice piece of hardware. But the hardware needs some
> > fixes. I think
> > gta-core project does exactly what is needed. If it had better
> > case and design
> > (or you could choose from alternative cases - e.g. white color
> > for girls and
> > women) and if it was cheap, it could be quite successful phone.
> >
> >
> > While I agree that aesthetics are a factor, at this point the
> > community should focus on
> > making something sustainable. If the stuff under the hood is good,
> > we'll attract case
> > mods, and they can put cool cases around our good hardware. 
> >
> > I also think gta-core is on the right track. It just needs to keep
> > moving forward, and
> > we'll eventually be successful.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Gerald.
> > 
> >
> > ___
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> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >   
> 
> 
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Re: OM future

[Gerald A]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Iain B. Findleton  wrote:

> Does anybody out there know what the financial envelope for, say, a run
> of 100 Neos with the accumulated hardware improvements, g3, and double
> the memory would be? I am thinking a custom application here...
>

I have no idea on financials, but the impression I got was small quantities
were incredibly expensive, comparatively. It might be better to shoot for
1000 (or even 10,000), and open it to the community to see if anyone would
want to do the work of sales to make it break even.

In your laundry list, the 3G (I'm guessing that is what you meant by g3) is
probably far and away the most expensive piece, as it involves patents and
licences and so forth, if I recall
the discussion correctly.

If you can do without the 3G, the gta-core project may be able
to accommodate you.

Hope that helps,
Gerald
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Re: OM future

[Iain B. Findleton]

Does anybody out there know what the financial envelope for, say, a run
of 100 Neos with the accumulated hardware improvements, g3, and double
the memory would be? I am thinking a custom application here...

I also suspect that a faster processor and support for higher capacity
SD cards could be nice.

Gerald A wrote:
> Heya,
>
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Radek Polak  > wrote:
>
> On Tuesday 23 February 2010 10:05:31 Mike Crash wrote:
>
> > We can create a phone as a next step in the future, but not now.
> This is a
> > very bad idea.
>
> I cant agree. I have N770 which is great PDA. If Neo was just PDA
> i would
> never bought it.
>
>
> I agree 100%. I have a few different Palms, which were much cheaper then
> the Neo. It was the vision that inspired me, and I'm sure will inspire
> others.
>  
>
> Neo is very nice piece of hardware. But the hardware needs some
> fixes. I think
> gta-core project does exactly what is needed. If it had better
> case and design
> (or you could choose from alternative cases - e.g. white color for
> girls and
> women) and if it was cheap, it could be quite successful phone.
>
>
> While I agree that aesthetics are a factor, at this point the
> community should focus on
> making something sustainable. If the stuff under the hood is good,
> we'll attract case
> mods, and they can put cool cases around our good hardware. 
>
> I also think gta-core is on the right track. It just needs to keep
> moving forward, and
> we'll eventually be successful.
>
> Thanks,
> Gerald.
> 
>
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Re: OM future

[Gerald A]

Heya,

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Radek Polak  wrote:

> On Tuesday 23 February 2010 10:05:31 Mike Crash wrote:
>
> > We can create a phone as a next step in the future, but not now. This is
> a
> > very bad idea.
>
> I cant agree. I have N770 which is great PDA. If Neo was just PDA i would
> never bought it.
>

I agree 100%. I have a few different Palms, which were much cheaper then
the Neo. It was the vision that inspired me, and I'm sure will inspire
others.


> Neo is very nice piece of hardware. But the hardware needs some fixes. I
> think
> gta-core project does exactly what is needed. If it had better case and
> design
> (or you could choose from alternative cases - e.g. white color for girls
> and
> women) and if it was cheap, it could be quite successful phone.
>

While I agree that aesthetics are a factor, at this point the community
should focus on
making something sustainable. If the stuff under the hood is good, we'll
attract case
mods, and they can put cool cases around our good hardware.

I also think gta-core is on the right track. It just needs to keep moving
forward, and
we'll eventually be successful.

Thanks,
Gerald.
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Re: OM future

[Radek Polak]

On Tuesday 23 February 2010 10:05:31 Mike Crash wrote:

> We can create a phone as a next step in the future, but not now. This is a
> very bad idea.

I cant agree. I have N770 which is great PDA. If Neo was just PDA i would 
never bought it.

Neo is very nice piece of hardware. But the hardware needs some fixes. I think 
gta-core project does exactly what is needed. If it had better case and design 
(or you could choose from alternative cases - e.g. white color for girls and 
women) and if it was cheap, it could be quite successful phone.

Regards

Radek

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Re: OM future

[Mike Crash]

OK, but this is not what I mean. Also I talk about hardware, not software.
The beginning of OM was because of FIC. We need a manufacturer, who can
refund manufacturing of samples and the final fabrication. Also look at
other devices and how many software there is for. There is a lot of software
for Neo ported from desktop, but on Neo unusable.
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Re: OM future

[Iain B. Findleton]

Mike Crash wrote:
> You talk something else than me. I didn't said anything about usage and
> development, only about the phone. Take a today phone and try to use it as
> GPS. In some hours you are out of battery, not very usable for a weekend in
> nature. You say, that Neo is like laptop in 2000? Nope, on laptop you can
> write documents, make programming etc. On neo you cannot. The small screen
> is very limited.
>
> Neo can be used as GPS, for access to internet (especially reading), book
> reading, as MP3 player etc. But not as mobile office. If you are "clicker",
> yes, but for real work no.
>
> Also consider the open source community - it has not the power to take the
> lead. And no power to make really open phone. Not without any involvement of
> some big manufacturer.
>   
Well, I make extensive use of the Neo via usb networking and X
forwarding. You can
program on it. I have a pretty good editor(s) on the Neo, and I mostly
write script
applications, so pretty well all development can be done right on the
phone. The
display and keyboard are non-issues with X forwarding. Cross compilation
is faster than
the Neo compilations, but even that works fine. I have a word processor
on the
Neo which I also use via X forwarding. There are lots of other apps
available as well.

Yes the power is a pain, but its a development box. Next generations
will not have the
power problems. I am thinking of the future, not the past.

As to the powerless open source community, I wonder what Linus or
Stallman would say to
that?

Actually, I don't care. You can always crack an HTC or a Nokia or a
iPhone or an Android phone
and install Linux. Perhaps Openmoko won't get anywhere, but someone will.


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Re: OM future

[Rui Miguel Silva Seabra]

Em 23-02-2010 18:41, Mike Crash escreveu:
> You talk something else than me. I didn't said anything about usage and
> development, only about the phone. Take a today phone and try to use it as
> GPS. In some hours you are out of battery, not very usable for a weekend in
> nature.

I think that can be said of each and every computer with Neo's
capabilities (or better).

> You say, that Neo is like laptop in 2000? Nope, on laptop you can
> write documents, make programming etc. On neo you cannot

I beg your pardon?

WRT typing: Neo doesn't have a keyboard (only on screen emulation). Get
a laptop from 2000 without a keyboard or mouse. Neo can do more (you can
type on the screen).

Now add a bluetooth keyboard: suddenly you can type a lot better.

> The small screen is very limited.

Yes and no. The advantage of being a nice GNU/Linux computer is that you
get your normal applications. The advantage is, you get your normal
applications but they are not thought for small screens.

We need smaller UIs, I recently asked the AbiWord guys to promote a
Google SoC

> Neo can be used as GPS, for access to internet (especially reading), book
> reading, as MP3 player etc. But not as mobile office. If you are "clicker",
> yes, but for real work no.
> 
> Also consider the open source community - it has not the power to take the
> lead. And no power to make really open phone. Not without any involvement of
> some big manufacturer.


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Re: OM future

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 2:05 AM, Mike Crash  wrote:
> Actually, I don't know, why everybody needs a phone. The community should aim
> at simple PDA with GPS, WiFi, BT and camera. This all is without any license

Personally I don't talk on the phone a lot, but it's nice to have an
"always-on" wireless network rather than having to find WiFi access
points (which use encryption or require some kind of sign-in way too
often anyway).  I use my iPhone to google stuff a lot, even though
it's only edge (pretty slow).  Most of the time when I'm away from
home I'd rather put up with the slow edge network than mess around
with connecting to an AP, figuring out why it doesn't work, and then
having it go away when I'm out of range.  Of course it depends on how
much you pay for your GSM and whether the limits are reasonable.  But
it's easy to imagine the future, that say 10 years from now the
internet is mostly wireless and your devices are nearly always
connected, with transparent roaming... no need to manually scan and
connect to networks.  That's how it needs to be for the best
usability.  So these comments that a PDA is good enough sound luddite
to me, although they do follow the pattern than the open-source world
is usually behind the curve, repeating what has been done rather than
innovating.

Personally I don't like carrying multiple devices either.  I use an
iPhone because it just works, does everything that can be done on
either a PDA or a phone so far (except multitasking), and I can
develop for it too.  (Too bad it's so darn closed though.)

Maybe the next OM device ought to be on one of the next-gen networks
like WiMax or LTE.  I have no idea what kind of hardware is required
for that, but early on I didn't get the impression that WiMax was any
more of a closed architecture than usual (e.g. there would be multiple
radio suppliers, and the spec is obtainable).

Or even invent a new, open network.  That would be far-out (in both
senses: very cool, and quite the project).  GnuRadio provides a
starting point.

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Re: OM future

[Mike Crash]

You talk something else than me. I didn't said anything about usage and
development, only about the phone. Take a today phone and try to use it as
GPS. In some hours you are out of battery, not very usable for a weekend in
nature. You say, that Neo is like laptop in 2000? Nope, on laptop you can
write documents, make programming etc. On neo you cannot. The small screen
is very limited.

Neo can be used as GPS, for access to internet (especially reading), book
reading, as MP3 player etc. But not as mobile office. If you are "clicker",
yes, but for real work no.

Also consider the open source community - it has not the power to take the
lead. And no power to make really open phone. Not without any involvement of
some big manufacturer.
-- 
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http://n2.nabble.com/OM-future-tp4526699p4620887.html
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Re: OM future

[Iain B. Findleton]

Mike Crash wrote:
> Actually, I don't know, why everybody needs a phone. The community should aim
> at simple PDA with GPS, WiFi, BT and camera. This all is without any license
> fees and can be made to work. The phone is nice, but do you really need such
> a device, where you can navigate in car/outdoors and in the same time take a
> call? I will prefer a simple small commercial phone with other such device.
> If I drive in car, I don't need WiFi, just a GSP, if I'm outdoors, I need
> GSP, if I'm in restaurant, I need WiFi, if I'm in bus stop, I need BT to
> connect to my phone with GPSR. I need only one such a function at a time,
> but what I need always - is a phone. I want to call when I'm in a car, in a
> bus stop, in a restaurant, in a wood and I don't want to break my
> navigation, mailing, browsing every time I get a phone.
>
> A phone has wifi and GPS as a nice option, but to have separate device with
> all that functionality is much more usable. I'm using Neo as PDA without sim
> card. I'm glad how it works - in last update to xorg 7.5 the glamo works
> very well and fast. EFL is very fast on that, GTK is worse. We should aim at
> software now.
>
> The next step should be to make nice PDA device with GPS, WiFi and BT and
> with OLED display (LCD is out). Camera would be nice, but not needed. Forget
> the phone, it will be always problem for open source.
>
> There is not big problem in designing such a device. And also, it will have
> longer life then a phone. But - will there be enough people, who will buy
> it? It needs to manufacture thousands of units - so thousands of buyers.
> Will be? If yes, we can design such a device and I will be first, who will
> start to draw a schematic. 
>
> We can create a phone as a next step in the future, but not now. This is a
> very bad idea.
>   
Don't really agree at all with this position. It appears to me to be
pretty clear
that as hardware improves more and more things now done on laptops will
be done on handheld devices with phone/wifi/bluetooth/ir capabilities. Right
now you can comfortably run a small business on your Neo. In future, such
a device will have large memory, fast processing, low power consumption,
better graphics and more applications.

If anything, more sensors (weather, compass, software radio, broadcast
signals, ir)
would expand the use of the single device. I observe my kids, who pretty
much do everything I
use a laptop or desktop for on their phones. Theonly complaint is the
phone is slow compared
to the other machines. This will certainly become an artifact over the
next few years.

The Neo to me is the rough equivalent of a 2000 vintage laptop with
significant improvements
in capabilities. While I don't know if the openmoko crowd can make any
progress on a next
generation device, someone will make such progress, and I believe that
is where the future
of personal use computing will go.

Improvements in human interface design are needed to make these things
easier to use,
but think of MSDOS and what we consider normal today. The same leap of
technology
will occur on these phone like devices.

I also want to have to carry less techno-junk, not more. Its true that
single purpose devices
are easier to produce, but a pocket full of them weighs you down,
requires you to learn
more procedures for different devices, and you run out of plugs in the
house for chargers.

Iain F.

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Re: OM future

[Mike Crash]

Actually, I don't know, why everybody needs a phone. The community should aim
at simple PDA with GPS, WiFi, BT and camera. This all is without any license
fees and can be made to work. The phone is nice, but do you really need such
a device, where you can navigate in car/outdoors and in the same time take a
call? I will prefer a simple small commercial phone with other such device.
If I drive in car, I don't need WiFi, just a GSP, if I'm outdoors, I need
GSP, if I'm in restaurant, I need WiFi, if I'm in bus stop, I need BT to
connect to my phone with GPSR. I need only one such a function at a time,
but what I need always - is a phone. I want to call when I'm in a car, in a
bus stop, in a restaurant, in a wood and I don't want to break my
navigation, mailing, browsing every time I get a phone.

A phone has wifi and GPS as a nice option, but to have separate device with
all that functionality is much more usable. I'm using Neo as PDA without sim
card. I'm glad how it works - in last update to xorg 7.5 the glamo works
very well and fast. EFL is very fast on that, GTK is worse. We should aim at
software now.

The next step should be to make nice PDA device with GPS, WiFi and BT and
with OLED display (LCD is out). Camera would be nice, but not needed. Forget
the phone, it will be always problem for open source.

There is not big problem in designing such a device. And also, it will have
longer life then a phone. But - will there be enough people, who will buy
it? It needs to manufacture thousands of units - so thousands of buyers.
Will be? If yes, we can design such a device and I will be first, who will
start to draw a schematic. 

We can create a phone as a next step in the future, but not now. This is a
very bad idea.
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/OM-future-tp4526699p4617760.html
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Re: OM future

[David Reyes Samblas Martinez]

2010/2/18 Laszlo KREKACS :
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 12:22 AM, William Kenworthy  wrote:
>> I pay that one! - was thinking "hmmm ... looks nice ...WHAT THE F..."
>> when the CD appeared :)
>
> The CD is realistic, but the video cassette!:-)
>
> Laszlo
>
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I want one of those it can run SHR and  QtMoko , LOL!!!

-- 
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http://www.tuxbrain.com
Open ultraportable & embedded solutions
Ben NanoNote, Arduino, Openmoko
Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!!

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Re: OM future

[Laszlo KREKACS]

On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 12:22 AM, William Kenworthy  wrote:
> I pay that one! - was thinking "hmmm ... looks nice ...WHAT THE F..."
> when the CD appeared :)

The CD is realistic, but the video cassette!:-)

Laszlo

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Re: OM future

[Michael Smith]

On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:11:15 +0900
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)  wrote:

> my lips are sealed until something is public... (you know the drill! nda's and
> all!) :)

This?

http://recombu.com/news/samsung-s5620-monte-the-phone-from-del-monte_M11404.html
-- 
Michael Smith
+61 416 062 898
http://glitch.tl

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Re: OM future

[The Rasterman]

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:27:40 +0100 "arne anka"  said:

> > unfortunately off-limits right now... until... something is publically
> > announced. keep your ears peeled. :)
> 
> wait no longer, here it is:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlxr8t1nZM&feature=youtube_gdata
> 
> *scnr*

awesome.. if my world lived inside a 2d rendering farm ... maybe i could live
on pandora and become blue and 10ft tall. :)


-- 
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Re: OM future

[William Kenworthy]

On Mon, 2010-02-08 at 21:27 +0100, arne anka wrote:
> > unfortunately off-limits right now... until... something is publically
> > announced. keep your ears peeled. :)
> 
> wait no longer, here it is:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlxr8t1nZM&feature=youtube_gdata
> 
> *scnr*
> 

I pay that one! - was thinking "hmmm ... looks nice ...WHAT THE F..."
when the CD appeared :)

BillK



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Re: OM future

[Serdar Dere]

But the charger.
backflash
cooking
AND SMS2TOAST!!!

Am 08.02.2010 um 22:15 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:

> 
> Am 08.02.2010 um 22:05 schrieb Neil Jerram:
> 
>> On 8 February 2010 20:27, arne anka  wrote:
 unfortunately off-limits right now... until... something is  
 publically
 announced. keep your ears peeled. :)
>>> 
>>> wait no longer, here it is:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlxr8t1nZM&feature=youtube_gdata
>> 
>> That is very funny!
> 
> Indeed!
> 
> I would happy if only 5% would come true in the near future (e.g. a  
> camera - 48Mpx is also not  "must have").
> 
> 
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Re: OM future

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 08.02.2010 um 22:05 schrieb Neil Jerram:

> On 8 February 2010 20:27, arne anka  wrote:
>>> unfortunately off-limits right now... until... something is  
>>> publically
>>> announced. keep your ears peeled. :)
>>
>> wait no longer, here it is:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlxr8t1nZM&feature=youtube_gdata
>
> That is very funny!

Indeed!

I would happy if only 5% would come true in the near future (e.g. a  
camera - 48Mpx is also not  "must have").


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Re: OM future

[Neil Jerram]

On 8 February 2010 20:27, arne anka  wrote:
>> unfortunately off-limits right now... until... something is publically
>> announced. keep your ears peeled. :)
>
> wait no longer, here it is:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlxr8t1nZM&feature=youtube_gdata

That is very funny!

Neil

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Re: OM future

[arne anka]

> unfortunately off-limits right now... until... something is publically
> announced. keep your ears peeled. :)

wait no longer, here it is:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlxr8t1nZM&feature=youtube_gdata

*scnr*

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Re: OM future

[The Rasterman]

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 09:53:51 +0100 Patryk Benderz  said:

> [cut]
> > or... you wait a little bit and see what's around the corner and brewing...
> > and trust me... stuff *IS* brewing at much bigger device makers than
> > openmoko ever was - who have the money and people to pull it off. keep your
> > ears peeled.
> Hi Rasterman,
> hmm... is it regarded to enlightment and/or samsung?

my lips are sealed until something is public... (you know the drill! nda's and
all!) :) i can say that enlightenment and samsung are closely involved with
eachother right now. samsung's mobile platform lab to be specific. and of
course you'd expect devices float around with enlightenment (and duh! linux,
x11 etc.) on them... on many a desk. what these devices are, if any will make
it to market, how many are on whose desks etc... the details and so on are
unfortunately off-limits right now... until... something is publically
announced. keep your ears peeled. :)

-- 
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The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: OM future

[Patryk Benderz]

[cut]
> or... you wait a little bit and see what's around the corner and brewing... 
> and
> trust me... stuff *IS* brewing at much bigger device makers than openmoko ever
> was - who have the money and people to pull it off. keep your ears peeled.
Hi Rasterman,
hmm... is it regarded to enlightment and/or samsung?

-- 
Patryk "LeadMan" Benderz
Linux Registered User #377521
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/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments


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Re: OM future

[Pietro "m0nt0" Montorfano]

Il giorno sab, 06/02/2010 alle 21.36 +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller ha
scritto:
> Although I am not an official from OM I think I can answer some of  
> your questions. See below. If I am wrong, I would be happy to be  
> corrected...
> 
> BR,
> Nikolaus
> 
> 
> Am 06.02.2010 um 20:57 schrieb Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano:
> 
> > Hi lists,
> > hoping that some official OpenMoko employee is still reading this ml  
> > i'd
> > like to know which are the plans for the future. There will be a  
> > GTA03??
> 
> No. GTA03 development was cancelled last year in favour of the  
> WikiReader.

I know, just hoping that it was put on the road again

> > If so are you working on it? So, the FR is a good thing, now it's 2
> > years old and you know, it has its problems (1024, buzz, glamo,...)  
> > so,
> 
> These problems are now solved. There are either buzz / 1024 fixes  
> around, some companies or nice guys offering them. And recently we  
> have started to offer GTA02A7+ (where buzz and 1024 are already  
> fixed). This is of course not done by OM, Inc. but others. But does  
> that make any difference?

Got all fixes except 1024

> For the GLAMO there has also been much progress. AFAIK, the official  
> X.org server now supports it quite well. And the kernel has also been  
> accelerated recently.

This is not a solution, it's much a workaround. Glamo should make 3d
fancy animation but it's sitting on the wrong bus and can accelerate a
window smaller than the FR screen 480x480 vs 480x640.

> > i'd like to look forward and get a new wonderful device like this.
> 
> There is at least one public project: GTA02-core aiming at new devices  
> like this (i.e. free&open smartphone platform). And, I know of at  
> least one more project to be announced this year.

Ok, this is what i was asking for! :D

> > So any news??
> 
> Yes, many. But probably not from the sources you have looked at. They  
> are not that aggregated and said by an official spokesperson.
> 
> So there is no need to wait for OM, Inc. This is also the real benefit  
> of that OM did open a lot of information and materials to secure the  
> future of the Openmoko movement, even if the company does no longer  
> participate. That is probably the best thing that did happen - to  
> successfully seed an idea.

Thanks

Pietro


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Re: OM future

[The Rasterman]

On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:25:11 +1100 Michael Smith  said:

> On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 08:52:24 +0900
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)  wrote:
> 
> > possible. either way - that says something then about nokia's QA proceedure
> > on the production line :) not good enough. (not for me!)
> 
> Of the two A6 open moko phones I kept, one had the buzzy audio, and
> non-functioning GPS. On the other phone audio and GPS both worked well.
> 
> I have a strong feeling that openmoko knew they were sending me a mix of good
> and bad phones. So they QA does work, but their customer service leaves
> something to be desired.

the qa being talked about here is nokia's, not om's :)

> I like my wife's HTC Magic, running Androd. When I change it will probably be
> to that phone. But for now I am happy with the OM phone I am using.
> 
> I am not a fan of Noika either.
> -- 
> Michael Smith
> 
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-- 
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The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: OM future

[Michael Smith]

On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 08:52:24 +0900
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)  wrote:

> possible. either way - that says something then about nokia's QA proceedure on
> the production line :) not good enough. (not for me!)

Of the two A6 open moko phones I kept, one had the buzzy audio, and 
non-functioning GPS. On the other phone audio and GPS both worked well.

I have a strong feeling that openmoko knew they were sending me a mix of good 
and bad phones. So they QA does work, but their customer service leaves 
something to be desired.

I like my wife's HTC Magic, running Androd. When I change it will probably be 
to that phone. But for now I am happy with the OM phone I am using.

I am not a fan of Noika either.
-- 
Michael Smith

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Re: OM future

[The Rasterman]

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:59:19 +1300 Ben Wilson  said:

> maybe, but i think i trust Nokia more than i trust the people involved 
> in getting the units from the factory
> to the users hands. Package could easy have been dropped by a sales 
> person etc.

package undamaged - and padded. even so - if the phone cant survive a drop when
padded by bubblewrap, cardboard, plastic, foam etc. etc. - still says to me
original build quality is bad.

> Ben.
> 
> On 7/02/2010 12:52 p.m., Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> > On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:46:04 +1300 Ben Wilson  said:
> >
> > possible. either way - that says something then about nokia's QA proceedure
> > on the production line :) not good enough. (not for me!)
> >
> >
> >> All the people I know who have an n900 love it.
> >> It seems highly likely that his n900 is faulty.
> >>
> >> Ben.
> >>
> >> On 7/02/2010 11:29 a.m., Gennady Kupava wrote:
> >>  
> >>> В Вск, 07/02/2010 в 05:29 +0900, Carsten Haitzler пишет:
> >>>
> >>> [cut]
> >>>
> >>>
>  or get a nokia n900 (though my
>  experience is that its a pile of junk - as i sit here now with my n900
>  having bricked itself spontaneously over a week ago, so i'm without a
>  phone, 6000km from home, not to mention that windows 3.1 seems like a
>  paragon of stability and solid performance compared to the n900 - the
>  n900 would literally crash and restart the whole ui very few minutes or
>  sooner at times, but it'd do this at least 5-10 times per day at a
>  minimum).
> 
>   
> >>> [cut]
> >>>
> >>> Hm, FR seems rock solid after such review.
> >>>
> >>> Gennady
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Openmoko community mailing list
> >>> community@lists.openmoko.org
> >>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> ___
> >> Openmoko community mailing list
> >> community@lists.openmoko.org
> >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >>  
> >
> >
> 


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: OM future

[Ben Wilson]

maybe, but i think i trust Nokia more than i trust the people involved 
in getting the units from the factory
to the users hands. Package could easy have been dropped by a sales 
person etc.

Ben.

On 7/02/2010 12:52 p.m., Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:46:04 +1300 Ben Wilson  said:
>
> possible. either way - that says something then about nokia's QA proceedure on
> the production line :) not good enough. (not for me!)
>
>
>> All the people I know who have an n900 love it.
>> It seems highly likely that his n900 is faulty.
>>
>> Ben.
>>
>> On 7/02/2010 11:29 a.m., Gennady Kupava wrote:
>>  
>>> В Вск, 07/02/2010 в 05:29 +0900, Carsten Haitzler пишет:
>>>
>>> [cut]
>>>
>>>
 or get a nokia n900 (though my
 experience is that its a pile of junk - as i sit here now with my n900
 having bricked itself spontaneously over a week ago, so i'm without a
 phone, 6000km from home, not to mention that windows 3.1 seems like a
 paragon of stability and solid performance compared to the n900 - the n900
 would literally crash and restart the whole ui very few minutes or sooner
 at times, but it'd do this at least 5-10 times per day at a minimum).

  
>>> [cut]
>>>
>>> Hm, FR seems rock solid after such review.
>>>
>>> Gennady
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Openmoko community mailing list
>>> community@lists.openmoko.org
>>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ___
>> Openmoko community mailing list
>> community@lists.openmoko.org
>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>  
>
>

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Re: OM future

[The Rasterman]

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:46:04 +1300 Ben Wilson  said:

possible. either way - that says something then about nokia's QA proceedure on
the production line :) not good enough. (not for me!)

> All the people I know who have an n900 love it.
> It seems highly likely that his n900 is faulty.
> 
> Ben.
> 
> On 7/02/2010 11:29 a.m., Gennady Kupava wrote:
> > В Вск, 07/02/2010 в 05:29 +0900, Carsten Haitzler пишет:
> >
> > [cut]
> >
> >> or get a nokia n900 (though my
> >> experience is that its a pile of junk - as i sit here now with my n900
> >> having bricked itself spontaneously over a week ago, so i'm without a
> >> phone, 6000km from home, not to mention that windows 3.1 seems like a
> >> paragon of stability and solid performance compared to the n900 - the n900
> >> would literally crash and restart the whole ui very few minutes or sooner
> >> at times, but it'd do this at least 5-10 times per day at a minimum).
> >>  
> > [cut]
> >
> > Hm, FR seems rock solid after such review.
> >
> > Gennady
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
> 
> ___
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> community@lists.openmoko.org
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-- 
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The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: OM future

[Ben Wilson]

All the people I know who have an n900 love it.
It seems highly likely that his n900 is faulty.

Ben.

On 7/02/2010 11:29 a.m., Gennady Kupava wrote:
> В Вск, 07/02/2010 в 05:29 +0900, Carsten Haitzler пишет:
>
> [cut]
>
>> or get a nokia n900 (though my
>> experience is that its a pile of junk - as i sit here now with my n900 having
>> bricked itself spontaneously over a week ago, so i'm without a phone, 6000km
>> from home, not to mention that windows 3.1 seems like a paragon of stability
>> and solid performance compared to the n900 - the n900 would literally crash 
>> and
>> restart the whole ui very few minutes or sooner at times, but it'd do this at
>> least 5-10 times per day at a minimum).
>>  
> [cut]
>
> Hm, FR seems rock solid after such review.
>
> Gennady
>
>
> ___
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>
>

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Re: OM future

[Gennady Kupava]

В Вск, 07/02/2010 в 05:29 +0900, Carsten Haitzler пишет:

[cut] 
> or get a nokia n900 (though my
> experience is that its a pile of junk - as i sit here now with my n900 having
> bricked itself spontaneously over a week ago, so i'm without a phone, 6000km
> from home, not to mention that windows 3.1 seems like a paragon of stability
> and solid performance compared to the n900 - the n900 would literally crash 
> and
> restart the whole ui very few minutes or sooner at times, but it'd do this at
> least 5-10 times per day at a minimum).

[cut]

Hm, FR seems rock solid after such review.

Gennady


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Re: OM future

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Although I am not an official from OM I think I can answer some of  
your questions. See below. If I am wrong, I would be happy to be  
corrected...

BR,
Nikolaus


Am 06.02.2010 um 20:57 schrieb Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano:

> Hi lists,
> hoping that some official OpenMoko employee is still reading this ml  
> i'd
> like to know which are the plans for the future. There will be a  
> GTA03??

No. GTA03 development was cancelled last year in favour of the  
WikiReader.

> If so are you working on it? So, the FR is a good thing, now it's 2
> years old and you know, it has its problems (1024, buzz, glamo,...)  
> so,

These problems are now solved. There are either buzz / 1024 fixes  
around, some companies or nice guys offering them. And recently we  
have started to offer GTA02A7+ (where buzz and 1024 are already  
fixed). This is of course not done by OM, Inc. but others. But does  
that make any difference?

For the GLAMO there has also been much progress. AFAIK, the official  
X.org server now supports it quite well. And the kernel has also been  
accelerated recently.

> i'd like to look forward and get a new wonderful device like this.

There is at least one public project: GTA02-core aiming at new devices  
like this (i.e. free&open smartphone platform). And, I know of at  
least one more project to be announced this year.

> So any news??

Yes, many. But probably not from the sources you have looked at. They  
are not that aggregated and said by an official spokesperson.

So there is no need to wait for OM, Inc. This is also the real benefit  
of that OM did open a lot of information and materials to secure the  
future of the Openmoko movement, even if the company does no longer  
participate. That is probably the best thing that did happen - to  
successfully seed an idea.

> Thanks a lot!
>
> Pietro
>
>
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Re: OM future

[The Rasterman]

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 20:57:38 +0100 "Pietro \"m0nt0\" Montorfano"
 said:

> Hi lists,
> hoping that some official OpenMoko employee is still reading this ml i'd
> like to know which are the plans for the future. There will be a GTA03??

bwahahahahahhaahha heheheheh. you didnt read this list a year or so ago? gta03
was canned? along with most of the company? (or they quit before that). you
missed that bit?

if you are after a gta03/4/5 from openmoko... you are barking up the wrong
tree.

> If so are you working on it? So, the FR is a good thing, now it's 2
> years old and you know, it has its problems (1024, buzz, glamo,...) so,
> i'd like to look forward and get a new wonderful device like this.
> So any news??

openmoko as morphed in a much smaller version of itself and does wikireader.
as such openoko no longer has the money or skills to do phones. it struggled
to manage the freerunner, and that was a every low-tech phone. to do a phone
that is competitive with todays offerings from apple, nokia, htc, samsung, etc.
etc. - you need big money and lots of people. LOTS. just the money to license a
3g module design alone is non-trivial. you are talking  ballpark $100 on
the table (setup license fee for example) just to begin thinking about it - not
to mention needing the skills/people. then there is the rest of the
supply-chain that needs big money and volumes to get what you want. also
needing to do your own modem stack. this is how the big boys do it - thats
why they can cut costs per unit for 3g to a small amount - openmoko can't do
this. yes - u can get modules. they are big (physically and thus make the phone
bulky) and expensive per unit. we are not even discussing the SoC's which don't
come cheap for a modern one (cortex-a8 etc.) unless you buy in volume, and gps,
wifi, screen etc. - the list goes on. 

your best bet is to get either an android pone and try and get normal linux
onto it *or just begin loving android), or get a nokia n900 (though my
experience is that its a pile of junk - as i sit here now with my n900 having
bricked itself spontaneously over a week ago, so i'm without a phone, 6000km
from home, not to mention that windows 3.1 seems like a paragon of stability
and solid performance compared to the n900 - the n900 would literally crash and
restart the whole ui very few minutes or sooner at times, but it'd do this at
least 5-10 times per day at a minimum). or maybe a palm-pre and hack away at it
with the webos-internals guys as its pretty much openemebdded under the hood
just with palm's webos windowing system ui layer concepts vs x11 like openmoko
and n900.

or... you wait a little bit and see what's around the corner and brewing... and
trust me... stuff *IS* brewing at much bigger device makers than openmoko ever
was - who have the money and people to pull it off. keep your ears peeled.

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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