Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Dave Turner]

On 28/08/17 01:03, Steve Litt wrote:

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 06:51:24 +0100
Dave Turner  wrote:


I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no
pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)

Very nice!


I installed eudev

Did you install eudev simply by apt-get install udev? Were there any
other steps?


and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

This means that udev won't run on boot. Did /etc/init.d/eudev exist, or
did you just not have a daemon?

[snip]


For sound I installed flac, alsa-utils, and the ncurses media player
moc. alsa-utils includes alsa-mixer and that let me un-mute the
sound. And it works! I think the docs on alsa and sound on linux have
become divorced from reality over  the years, I know how to read and
follow instructions, I should have been able to do this years ago. I
had to do it by trial and error!

Dave, a cool move on your part would be to document exactly how you did
the setup described in the preceding paragraph. Until Devuan gets their
documentation act together, I'd suggest publishing your documentation
on a website controlled by you, so that it's permanent. A whole heck of
a lot of people want to have a simple, no-nonsense sound setup like you
describe. I'm one of them.

SteveT
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I have written up most of what I have done. I was thinking that 
dev1galaxy.org was the best place to put it.


The web-browser on my iMac is dillo which is fast and light and nice to 
use for many things - and utterly useless for other things so Palemoon 
will be the next install, followed by VLC so I can watch DVDs again. I 
fully expect my system will get polluted by systemd and probably 
pulseaudio too, we'll see!


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 06:51:24 +0100
Dave Turner  wrote:

> I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no 
> pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)

Very nice!

> 
> I installed eudev 

Did you install eudev simply by apt-get install udev? Were there any
other steps?

> and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

This means that udev won't run on boot. Did /etc/init.d/eudev exist, or
did you just not have a daemon?

[snip]

> 
> For sound I installed flac, alsa-utils, and the ncurses media player 
> moc. alsa-utils includes alsa-mixer and that let me un-mute the
> sound. And it works! I think the docs on alsa and sound on linux have
> become divorced from reality over  the years, I know how to read and
> follow instructions, I should have been able to do this years ago. I
> had to do it by trial and error!

Dave, a cool move on your part would be to document exactly how you did
the setup described in the preceding paragraph. Until Devuan gets their
documentation act together, I'd suggest publishing your documentation
on a website controlled by you, so that it's permanent. A whole heck of
a lot of people want to have a simple, no-nonsense sound setup like you
describe. I'm one of them.

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Alessandro Selli]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 at 12:41:49 -0400
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 10:36:16AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>> So, this is again an advice that should be obvious for anyone, bold
>> enough to delete parts of the file system, that can result in system
>> breakage.
>> 
>> There is a betwitched command, tar, that can be used to create
>> archives of any directory. So, the obvious action to me is, make a
>> tar.gz archive before deleting any system directory. That way, you
>> will be empowered with recovery in the ill fated event of breakage. In
>> the event of boot failure you can use the backup (.tar.gz) file to
>> repair the damage restoring bootability.  
>
> Assuming, of course, that you have some other way of booting the 
> machine so you can still run commands to restore the files.

  It depends by the severity of the malfunction.  You could have damaged the
system not badly enought to prevent you from getting a login terminal.

  An emergency boot partition or device is always a good thing to have,
anyway.


Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Harald Arnesen]

Den 26/08/2017 18:41, skrev Hendrik Boom:

> On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 10:36:16AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>> There is a betwitched command, tar, that can be used to create
>> archives of any directory. So, the obvious action to me is, make a
>> tar.gz archive before deleting any system directory. That way, you
>> will be empowered with recovery in the ill fated event of breakage. In
>> the event of boot failure you can use the backup (.tar.gz) file to
>> repair the damage restoring bootability.
> 
> Assuming, of course, that you have some other way of booting the 
> machine so you can still run commands to restore the files.

You always have a live dvd/usbstick to boot from.
-- 
Hilsen Harald
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 10:36:16AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> So, this is again an advice that should be obvious for anyone, bold
> enough to delete parts of the file system, that can result in system
> breakage.
> 
> There is a betwitched command, tar, that can be used to create
> archives of any directory. So, the obvious action to me is, make a
> tar.gz archive before deleting any system directory. That way, you
> will be empowered with recovery in the ill fated event of breakage. In
> the event of boot failure you can use the backup (.tar.gz) file to
> repair the damage restoring bootability.

Assuming, of course, that you have some other way of booting the 
machine so you can still run commands to restore the files.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Harald Arnesen]

Edward Bartolo [2017-08-26 10:36]:

> So, this is again an advice that should be obvious for anyone, bold
> enough to delete parts of the file system, that can result in system
> breakage.
> 
> There is a betwitched command, tar, that can be used to create
> archives of any directory. So, the obvious action to me is, make a
> tar.gz archive before deleting any system directory. That way, you
> will be empowered with recovery in the ill fated event of breakage. In
> the event of boot failure you can use the backup (.tar.gz) file to
> repair the damage restoring bootability.

Or simply rename the directories instead of deleting them. If everything
works after a boot, delete the directories then.
-- 
Hilsen Harald
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Dave Turner]

On 26/08/17 09:05, Ralph Ronnquist wrote:



Svante Signell wrote on 26/08/17 16:57:

On Sat, 2017-08-26 at 06:51 +0100, Dave Turner wrote:


I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no
pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)
I installed eudev and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

...

udev is gone and is replaced by eudev. I left the udev files in place
in /etc /lib because no eudev files had appeared so I think eudev
makes use of the udev files. I felt disinclined to break the system
again by deleting them! But if anyone can confirm or deny that would
be nice.


Hi David,

You can check the contents of eudev yourself:
dpkg -L eudev
gives you the list of installed files.


It's also worth to note that many files in /lib/udev/rules.d belong to 
various other packages; they add their own configuration to udev in 
support of hotplugging their things. I think you do best in leaving 
them intact for eudev to use. Files in /etc/udev/rules.d are 
notionally your sysadmin's poetry, with site local configuration, and 
likewise, should probably be kept as well.


Ralph.
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OK, dpkg -L eudev gives a long list of files mainly in /lib/udev/, I'll 
be leaving those alone then...


Once bitten twice shy, after the 1st breakage I copied everything from 
/etc and /lib and /usr that I thought I might need into ~/SAFE/ . 
Happily I didn't need it.


Thanks for the help, in the next week or so I will be installing X11 and 
polluting the iMac with libsystemd0.


DaveT

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[DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Edward Bartolo]

So, this is again an advice that should be obvious for anyone, bold
enough to delete parts of the file system, that can result in system
breakage.

There is a betwitched command, tar, that can be used to create
archives of any directory. So, the obvious action to me is, make a
tar.gz archive before deleting any system directory. That way, you
will be empowered with recovery in the ill fated event of breakage. In
the event of boot failure you can use the backup (.tar.gz) file to
repair the damage restoring bootability.
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Ralph Ronnquist]

Svante Signell wrote on 26/08/17 16:57:

On Sat, 2017-08-26 at 06:51 +0100, Dave Turner wrote:


I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no
pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)
I installed eudev and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

...

udev is gone and is replaced by eudev. I left the udev files in place
in /etc /lib because no eudev files had appeared so I think eudev
makes use of the udev files. I felt disinclined to break the system
again by deleting them! But if anyone can confirm or deny that would
be nice.


Hi David,

You can check the contents of eudev yourself:
dpkg -L eudev
gives you the list of installed files.


It's also worth to note that many files in /lib/udev/rules.d belong to 
various other packages; they add their own configuration to udev in 
support of hotplugging their things. I think you do best in leaving them 
intact for eudev to use. Files in /etc/udev/rules.d are notionally your 
sysadmin's poetry, with site local configuration, and likewise, should 
probably be kept as well.


Ralph.
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Svante Signell]

On Sat, 2017-08-26 at 06:51 +0100, Dave Turner wrote:
> 
> I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no
> pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)
> I installed eudev and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.
...
> udev is gone and is replaced by eudev. I left the udev files in place
> in /etc /lib because no eudev files had appeared so I think eudev
> makes use of the udev files. I felt disinclined to break the system
> again by deleting them! But if anyone can confirm or deny that would
> be nice.

Hi David,

You can check the contents of eudev yourself:
dpkg -L eudev
gives you the list of installed files.
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Joel Roth]

Dave Turner wrote:
> I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no
> pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)
> I installed eudev and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

That's great. 

> I can cope with twm and I really like ctwm so I was shocked when I realised
> that the version of ctwm in debian is 10 years old! Version 4.0.1 was
> released by the ctwm people in June this year. I had to download the code
> and compile it. I used 'checkinstall' to create the package and it works
> too! Obviously that was a few weeks and a couple of rebuilds ago.

Checkinstall is an amazing tool. 

 
> DaveT

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-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Dave Turner]

On 19/08/17 16:46, Dave Turner wrote:

On 18/08/17 18:45, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:36:12 +0100
Dave Turner  wrote:


On 18/08/17 00:22, Joel Roth wrote:

deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories

With eudev I have a working keyboard so today I went in and removed
/etc/systemd/* . Re-booted and I still have a working keyboard but no
network connection!

Hi Dave,

I think you have /etc/init.d/networking or something like that. This
shellscript assumes a certain name for your network interface. Your
move to eudev might have changed that name.

Perform the following command to learn interface names:

ip link

Strongarm your network name(s) into /etc/init.d/networking as needed.

If you really, really can't get /etc/init.d/networking to do the job,
here's a shellscript to bring up a wired interface to a defined IP:

#!/bin/bash
ip link set dev enp3s0 down
ip addr add 192.168.100.2/24 dev enp3s0
ip addr add 192.168.100.102/24 dev enp3s0
ip link set dev enp3s0 up
ip route add default via 192.168.100.96

Assuming your interface is named enp3s0 (and rename it if not), the
preceding script will work on any distro.

Somewhere in the past I posted, on this list, a shellscript to deduce
the name of the wired interface, and jam it into an environment
variable so it could be passed to scripts like the preceding.

If you want to boot up wifi, you need your boot to early run, *with
respawn*, wpa_supplicant, as aa daemon. This means for sysvinit put it
in /etc/inittab, not in /etc/init.d/S0whateverwpa_supplicant.

If, like me, you're willing to be disloyal to your distro, you can
start up your network trivially.


SteveT

Steve Litt
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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I'll have a go at your and Svante's suggestions probably on Sunday 
evening. Saturday and Sunday I will be putting my Harley back together 
and going for a ride.


DaveT

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I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no 
pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)


I installed eudev and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

Deleted /etc/systemd/         and rebooted, everything still works.

Deleted /lib/systemd/         and rebooted, everything still works.
Deleted /var/lib/systemd/     and rebooted, everything still works.
Deleted /usr/lib/systemd/     and rebooted, everything still works.

udev is gone and is replaced by eudev. I left the udev files in place in 
/etc /lib because no eudev files had appeared so I think eudev makes use 
of the udev files. I felt disinclined to break the system again by 
deleting them! But if anyone can confirm or deny that would be nice.


For sound I installed flac, alsa-utils, and the ncurses media player 
moc. alsa-utils includes alsa-mixer and that let me un-mute the sound. 
And it works! I think the docs on alsa and sound on linux have become 
divorced from reality over  the years, I know how to read and follow 
instructions, I should have been able to do this years ago. I had to do 
it by trial and error!


To confirm: the 'sound' section in aptitude shows only alsa-utils and 
moc; flac is in the 'libs' section as libflac8.


I have had a good look at what xserver-xorg-core pulls in. libsystemd0 
gets pulled in. Oh well, I'll just have to put up with it won't I!


I can cope with twm and I really like ctwm so I was shocked when I 
realised that the version of ctwm in debian is 10 years old! Version 
4.0.1 was released by the ctwm people in June this year. I had to 
download the code and compile it. I used 'checkinstall' to create the 
package and it works too! Obviously that was a few weeks and a couple of 
rebuilds ago.


DaveT
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