Re: Bell, Aspect Copenhagen vs. MWI

2002-02-07 Thread Marchal

Hello Saibal,


[SNIP]


Thank you very much for your explanation. 
I will think a little more about it. You almost convince me that
ghosts don't exist except you end with this remark on 't Hooft
and that remark enlarges again my Quantum Field Theory (QFT) perplexity!


't Hooft's theory is one in which quantum mechanics also appears in an 
analogous way as the ghosts in field theory. So, to answer Charles' 
question, the Copenhagen interpretation means in this case that 
although there is an underlying theory, this underlying theory says 
nothing about elementary particles, because they don't exist. Just like 
ghosts can do strange things in Feynman diagrams so can an electron go 
through two slits at once. Ghosts don't exists. How do you know that an 
electron does exist?


As far as electron exist relatively to us we have strong evidence that
we should take their ghostly behavior (superposition) as real relatively
to us. So the fact that 't Hooft put QM ghost on the same setting than
QFT ghost makes me worry than I was perhaps not entirely insane taking
those QFT ghost a little more seriously. Well I suppose it was an analogy.
If that analogy is serious I would bet on QFT-ghost computer!

We struggle a lot against those infinities in the QFT but perhaps one
day we will use them to implement quantum infinite computations :)



Bruno




Re: Bell, Aspect Copenhagen vs. MWI

2002-02-06 Thread Saibal Mitra

Hello Bruno,

I did follow a course on Hopf algebras, but that's already some time 
ago. I will read the articles you mentioned, should be interesting! 
B.t.w. Kreimer has also written some papers with David Broadhurst. He 
has done some quite amazing work, see his homepage:

http://physics.open.ac.uk/~dbroadhu/

To answer your question about the nonexistence of ghosts, I would first 
have to define what ghosts are. Simply put, a field theory is defined 
by some path integral. You have to integrate over all field 
configurations. By taking functional derivatives you can then compute 
(in principle) all possible correlations. In some theories there are 
complications because instead of the field, potentials are used. Fields 
are certain derivatives of the potentials. Now, for a given field 
configuration, there are many different potentials (they are related by 
so-called gauge transformations). So, you can't just integrate over all 
possible potential configurations. You must make sure that all field 
configurations only appear once in the path integral. However, it is 
very inconvenient to deal with such restrictions. Now, there exists a 
certain trick to deal with this problem. One introduces certain (ghost) 
fields in the path integral (that also have to be integrated over), 
such that the integral over the potentials is unrestricted. The 
integration over the ghosts takes care of the ''overcounting''.

If you now perform perturbative computations, you find the usual 
Feynman rules plus some extra rules for the ghosts. They can appear 
only in internal loops. The fields are anti-commutative, and yet have  
spin zero. That seems impossible. Maybe you know the famous spin 
statics theorem: half-integer spin particles are described by anti-
commuting fields, integer spin fields by commuting fields. This can be 
derived by showing that if this were not the case you would violate 
locality. So, the appearence of the ghosts seems to indicate that the 
field theory is non-local, but that's false. The field theory can be 
shown to be local. The ghosts are just a mathematical abstraction to 
facilitate computations. This is reflected by the fact that they only 
appear in internal loops. Thus, ghosts don't exist.

Maybe this analogy helps. First year students often get this problem: 
Suppose you have a spherical planet of uniform density, with a cavity. 
Suppose the cavity is also spherical. The radii of the planet and the 
cavity are given, also the position of the center of the cavity w.r.t. 
the center of the planet is given.

The problem is to compute the acceleration due to gravity (g) on the 
surface of the planet. This will depend on the position on the surface, 
of course.

Now, the following trick can be used: Thye planet with cavity is just a 
superposition of the planet without cavity and a small planet with 
negative density in the place of the cavity. Since the two objects are 
spherical, you can immediately write down the result!

I think that everyone will agree that the appearance of negative 
density, and thus of negative mass, in a formulae describing a real 
physical situation as above, doesn't mean that negative mass objects 
actually exist.

't Hooft's theory is one in which quantum mechanics also appears in an 
analogous way as the ghosts in field theory. So, to answer Charles' 
question, the Copenhagen interpretation means in this case that 
although there is an underlying theory, this underlying theory says 
nothing about elementary particles, because they don't exist. Just like 
ghosts can do strange things in Feynman diagrams so can an electron go 
through two slits at once. Ghosts don't exists. How do you know that an 
electron does exist?

Saibal




- Origineel Bericht -
Van: Marchal [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Datum: Woensdag, Februari 6, 2002 8:29 pm
Onderwerp: Re: Bell, Aspect  Copenhagen vs. MWI

 Hi Saibal,
 
 Your thesis is very interesting, as far as I understand it.
 I am sure you are right about the fact that renormalisation
 theory can put light ... on the question what is a physical
 system and what is a physical simulation of a physical
 system?. 
 
 I see more and more my own Z1* as a sort of renormalisation
 on the computationalist indeterminacy (*Too* many worlds with
 comp). The quantum would be the result of renormalising
 classical comp indeterminacy!
 
 Do you know the Hopf algebra of renormalisation? (cf
 the Connes and Kreimer Lessons from Quantum Field Theory?
 (hep-th/9904044).
 
 My interest for Hopf algebra grew from the reading of the
 the Kitaev fault-tolerant quantum computation by
 anyons (quant-ph/9707021) (what crazy paper!), but your 
 remark + your thesis + Connes and Kreimer adds still deeper 
 motivations.
 
 BTW you said (to the FOR list):
 
 In quantum field theory Feynman diagrams are used to perform 
 perturbative 
 computations. Now, here it is clear from the start that virtual 
 particles 
 and ghosts, as they appear in these diagrams, don't

Re: Bell, Aspect Copenhagen vs. MWI

2002-02-05 Thread Marchal

Hi Saibal,

Your thesis is very interesting, as far as I understand it.
I am sure you are right about the fact that renormalisation
theory can put light ... on the question what is a physical
system and what is a physical simulation of a physical
system?. 

I see more and more my own Z1* as a sort of renormalisation
on the computationalist indeterminacy (*Too* many worlds with
comp). The quantum would be the result of renormalising
classical comp indeterminacy!

Do you know the Hopf algebra of renormalisation? (cf
the Connes and Kreimer Lessons from Quantum Field Theory?
(hep-th/9904044).

My interest for Hopf algebra grew from the reading of the
the Kitaev fault-tolerant quantum computation by
anyons (quant-ph/9707021) (what crazy paper!), but your 
remark + your thesis + Connes and Kreimer adds still deeper 
motivations.

BTW you said (to the FOR list):

In quantum field theory Feynman diagrams are used to perform perturbative 
computations. Now, here it is clear from the start that virtual particles 
and ghosts, as they appear in these diagrams, don't exist. Only the 
external lines represent real physical particles. 

What makes you so sure? I guess it's my incompetence in Quantum
Field Theory, but this is not clear for me. I would appreciate
a short comment on the MWI view of QFT, perturbation and renormalisation.

All this is very clear 
because the Feynman rules are derived from a well defined theory that is 
well understood.

Ah ?

Bruno