Re: FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[Julian H. Stacey]

> From: Anonymous 

> On topic...

More off remit noise (**)
Questions@ is for questions, 
Not an opinion dump.


>  http://www.freebsd.org/releases/9.1R/schedule.html
>  http://wiki.freebsd.org/Releng/9.1TODO

  (** wiki & web could benefit from greater synch., But www & wiki
  & doc teams will have better understanding of issues, Anonymous@
  should have raised that issue on their lists, not here.)


> - Different dates listed for the same events.

A point, But now's a bad time for this anonymous@ to again try to
stir a premature `drains up' while the release is finalising.
Release engineers & others will presumably later discuss release
scheduling etc, after they've got the release out, & taken a well
deserved rest; Till then best refute critics that could demotivate
unpaid hard working release builders.


> I've used FreeBSD fulltime since at at least 10 years

If true, failed to learn http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo
has different lists for different topics,  in this case doc@ & www etc.
& failed to learn best to send-pr a patch with eg SGML for www & wiki.

This anonymous@ troll could be blocked.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
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FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[Anonymous]

On topic...

We do have these...
 http://www.freebsd.org/releases/9.1R/schedule.html
 http://wiki.freebsd.org/Releng/9.1TODO
which serve well to illustrate at least a few parts of the
problem:

- Different dates listed for the same events.
- Two different sites/pages for the same type of info.
- Neither particularly utilized for/to their purpose (release commits
  this month not yet noted for the public, blanks in tables)
- Ineffective decisions as to which of the two pages to adopt and
  to delete the other as a waste of commmunity resources and confusion
  as to which is authoritative.

This is not meant to single out 9.1, but the aggregate of all
releases, 9..8..7..6... viewed in sliding windows if need be to
identify particular problem areas.

And whatever 'other stuff' the project needs.

A little criticism or kudos now and then is a good thing.
I've used FreeBSD fulltime since at at least 10 years, it's
that good.



Off topic...

> No we don't.

Really? Nothing wrong with this being a survey thread.

> Go back to posting your pictures of kiddie porn

I prefer adults, exclusively. Sorry to disappoint the prurient
interests that are clearly on your mind.

> anonymous.

Sure 'illoai', what's your residence address again?
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Re: FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 11:21:50 +0100
Matthias Gamsjager  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Chad Perrin 
> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 01:52:04AM -0500, Anonymous wrote:
> > > We, the users of FreeBSD, *do hereby challenge* the FreeBSD
> > > project to meet its future release dates.
> >
> > I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for 9.1-RELEASE to be
> > finalized.  I desperately want it as soon as possible for a laptop
> > currently running such a piece of shit OS (Debian -- used to be
> > good, but after half a dozen years away it went significantly
> > downhill) that I'm about ready to pull out my hair.  It needs
> > hardware support not available with FreeBSD until now, and I want
> > stable, -RELEASE software on it to suit my needs.
> >
> >
> Wouldn't stable/9 give you the same results as 9.1Release?

I also do not understand this crying here.

There are currently 7.4, 8.3 and 9.0 as a RELEASE out.

Nobody will stop a user to install the current release candidate for
9.1 or even the 10.0.

I would not bother to think a second but take what ever is out there
which seems to fit to my hardware and install it.

If nothing works, I would have a try with 10.

Erich
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Re: FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[Matthias Gamsjager]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Chad Perrin  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 01:52:04AM -0500, Anonymous wrote:
> > We, the users of FreeBSD, *do hereby challenge* the FreeBSD project
> > to meet its future release dates.
>
> I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for 9.1-RELEASE to be finalized.  I
> desperately want it as soon as possible for a laptop currently running
> such a piece of shit OS (Debian -- used to be good, but after half a
> dozen years away it went significantly downhill) that I'm about ready to
> pull out my hair.  It needs hardware support not available with FreeBSD
> until now, and I want stable, -RELEASE software on it to suit my needs.
>
>
Wouldn't stable/9 give you the same results as 9.1Release?
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Re: FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[Chad Perrin]

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 01:52:04AM -0500, Anonymous wrote:
> We, the users of FreeBSD, *do hereby challenge* the FreeBSD project
> to meet its future release dates.

I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for 9.1-RELEASE to be finalized.  I
desperately want it as soon as possible for a laptop currently running
such a piece of shit OS (Debian -- used to be good, but after half a
dozen years away it went significantly downhill) that I'm about ready to
pull out my hair.  It needs hardware support not available with FreeBSD
until now, and I want stable, -RELEASE software on it to suit my needs.

That having been said, I don't "challenge" the FreeBSD project to meet
future release dates.  This isn't Ubuntu; it's FreeBSD.  I'd rather they
get it *right* than get it out *quickly*.  Hell, even before I stopped
using Debian, when I thought it was still good, there were signs of its
impending slide into crappiness -- and they all happened around the time
the Debian project started trying to meet release dates on a faster
development schedule.

No . . . I don't want to push the FreeBSD core team to sacrifice the
things that make FreeBSD valuable just to meet arbitrary release date
guesstimates.  Screw that.


> 
> Why: Because the FreeBSD project has not met a significant number
> of its release dates. It's an apalling state of affairs and makes
> you, the project, look silly. Business and personal users plan
> elements of their schedules, budgets and capabilities around OS
> updates. And the continual failure of FreeBSD to deliver causes us
> to have no alternative but to look at our bosses and just shrug.
> We've taken to padding it out a week, two weeks, a month, two
> months... just to cover the random slippage. Since there seems to
> be no public statements about this ongoing situation, we might as
> well pad it to a quarter or a half... FreeBSD's already a half
> behind on status reports.

Here you make a point I'd like to see addressed.  I wish we had a simple
way to find out what's going on with the wait.  That doesn't mean I want
anyone prioritizing speed over quality, though.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[Julian H. Stacey]

anonym...@foto.nl1.torservers.net wrote:
> We, the users of FreeBSD, *do hereby challenge* the FreeBSD project

Troll Detected ?
  - List remit requires a question. Poster gave no question, just criticised.
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
  - There are better addresses than questions@ to contact &
influence more FreeBSD volunteer workers & decision makers.
  - questions@ iswrong address for disparate people responsible for seperate
issues eg release schedules, wikis, etc.  Aggregating noise here is Bad.
  - Anonymous criticism discourages consideration of points which might
benefit FreeBSD if raised for consideration [later], to other
addresses, Not posted anonymously.

 can be requested to block addresses.

For random chat:
freebsd-c...@freebsd.org
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat
Other lists
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo

If waiting for 9.1-RELEASE, src/ available last week compiles & runs.
  http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-December/071044.html

Julian
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Re: FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[Michael Sierchio]

The FreeBSD Foundation is not the FreeBSD Project.  I encourage you to
give to the Foundation, because it exists to support the Project.  But
the majority of work done on the development and maintenance is not
funded by the Foundation - by and large, it is self-funded by
contributors, or occasionally funded by outside grants for specific
functions (e.g. the Trusted BSD framework).

http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/
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Re: FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[Jerry]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:58:38 -0800
Michael Sierchio articulated:

> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 10:52 PM, Anonymous
>  wrote:
> 
> > We, the users of FreeBSD
> 
> You speak only for yourself.

Another interesting item referencing FreeBSD.



-- 
Jerry ♔

Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored.
Please do not ignore the Reply-To header.
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Re: FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[Michael Sierchio]

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 10:52 PM, Anonymous
 wrote:

> We, the users of FreeBSD

You speak only for yourself.

- M

PS I'll bet waiters in restaurants spit in your food
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Re: FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[Jerry McAllister]

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 01:52:04AM -0500, Anonymous wrote:

> We, the users of FreeBSD, *do hereby challenge* the FreeBSD project
> to meet its future release dates.

OK.   Get busy.  You have a lot of work to do.

Have you ever created or maintained a large project using volunteer help?
Get serious and think what you are talking about before making such
comments.

Release dates are estimates.   Would it help your sensitive situation
to call them release estimates rather than release dates?   

jerry


> 
> Why: Because the FreeBSD project has not met a significant number
> of its release dates. It's an apalling state of affairs and makes
> you, the project, look silly. Business and personal users plan
> elements of their schedules, budgets and capabilities around OS
> updates. And the continual failure of FreeBSD to deliver causes us
> to have no alternative but to look at our bosses and just shrug.
> We've taken to padding it out a week, two weeks, a month, two
> months... just to cover the random slippage. Since there seems to
> be no public statements about this ongoing situation, we might as
> well pad it to a quarter or a half... FreeBSD's already a half
> behind on status reports.
> 
> No one is asking for a commercial dictatorship here. But please
> FreeBSD, coordinate better amongst yourselves!!! Be honest about
> what is and isn't going to make it. Grow the wiki as your central
> coordination center [ie 1] and start moving dynamic docs from www
> to there (the community). Replace GNATS (omg, ugh), SVN, and even
> MoinMoin so the world can interface with some things that it has
> some (good / market leading) experience with [2].
> 
> Other than that, FreeBSD is great :)
> 
> [1]
> http://wiki.freebsd.org/WhatsNew/FreeBSD10
> 
> [2]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_wiki_software
>  https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_issue_tracking_systems
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_help_desk_issue_tracking_software
>  http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software_(PHP)
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software
>  http://www.simplemachines.org/
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Re: FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[n j]

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Stephen Cook  wrote:
> On 12/11/2012 1:52 AM, Anonymous wrote:
>>
>> We, the users of FreeBSD, *do hereby challenge* the FreeBSD project
>> to meet its future release dates.
>
> Similarly, I'm a bit concerned that 9.0 loses support at the end of January,
> but there is no release date for 9.1 (at
> http://www5.us.freebsd.org/releases/9.1R/schedule.html, the last actual date
> shown is November 3, 2012, for RC3). I'm confused as to the best course of
> action: continue to use an unsupported version and hope the new one comes
> out sooner than later, or downgrade to a supported version (8.3).

>From security.freebsd.org:

Normal
Releases which are published from a -STABLE branch will be supported
by the Security Officer for a minimum of 12 months after the release,
and for sufficient additional time (if needed) to ensure that there is
a newer release for at least 3 months before the older Normal release
expires.

So the real EoL for 9.0 is the date of 9.1 release plus 3 months.

-- 
Nino
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Re: FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[Bas Smeelen]

On 12/11/2012 08:17 AM, Stephen Cook wrote:

On 12/11/2012 1:52 AM, Anonymous wrote:

We, the users of FreeBSD, *do hereby challenge* the FreeBSD project
to meet its future release dates.


Similarly, I'm a bit concerned that 9.0 loses support at the end of 
January, but there is no release date for 9.1 (at 
http://www5.us.freebsd.org/releases/9.1R/schedule.html, the last actual 
date shown is November 3, 2012, for RC3). I'm confused as to the best 
course of action: continue to use an unsupported version and hope the new 
one comes out sooner than later, or downgrade to a supported version (8.3).


I know FreeBSD is free and community-supported, but this still seems a 
bit... improper? Right now I'm only dealing with personal machines (and 
nothing truly vital at that), but I am formulating plans to use FreeBSD 
commercially and this makes me uneasy.


Well for production servers I have the habit of staying on 8.3-RELEASE, in 
this case, which is supported until April 30 2014 and then move them to 
9.1-RELEASE

I have been doing so for previous releases also, no need to get worried.

For personal and testing systems, like being not for clients production 
systems, I use whatever is desired, RELEASE, BETA, or RC (freebsd-update) 
and STABLE, or CURRENT (source svn)




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Re: FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[Stephen Cook]

On 12/11/2012 1:52 AM, Anonymous wrote:

We, the users of FreeBSD, *do hereby challenge* the FreeBSD project
to meet its future release dates.


Similarly, I'm a bit concerned that 9.0 loses support at the end of 
January, but there is no release date for 9.1 (at 
http://www5.us.freebsd.org/releases/9.1R/schedule.html, the last actual 
date shown is November 3, 2012, for RC3). I'm confused as to the best 
course of action: continue to use an unsupported version and hope the 
new one comes out sooner than later, or downgrade to a supported version 
(8.3).


I know FreeBSD is free and community-supported, but this still seems a 
bit... improper? Right now I'm only dealing with personal machines (and 
nothing truly vital at that), but I am formulating plans to use FreeBSD 
commercially and this makes me uneasy.


-- Stephen

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Re: FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[ill...@gmail.com]

On 11 December 2012 01:52, Anonymous  wrote:
> We, the users of FreeBSD, *do hereby challenge* the FreeBSD project
> to meet its future release dates.
>

No we don't. Go back to posting your pictures of kiddie porn, anonymous.

-- 
--
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FreeBSD Release Date Challenge, plus other stuff the project needs

[Anonymous]

We, the users of FreeBSD, *do hereby challenge* the FreeBSD project
to meet its future release dates.

Why: Because the FreeBSD project has not met a significant number
of its release dates. It's an apalling state of affairs and makes
you, the project, look silly. Business and personal users plan
elements of their schedules, budgets and capabilities around OS
updates. And the continual failure of FreeBSD to deliver causes us
to have no alternative but to look at our bosses and just shrug.
We've taken to padding it out a week, two weeks, a month, two
months... just to cover the random slippage. Since there seems to
be no public statements about this ongoing situation, we might as
well pad it to a quarter or a half... FreeBSD's already a half
behind on status reports.

No one is asking for a commercial dictatorship here. But please
FreeBSD, coordinate better amongst yourselves!!! Be honest about
what is and isn't going to make it. Grow the wiki as your central
coordination center [ie 1] and start moving dynamic docs from www
to there (the community). Replace GNATS (omg, ugh), SVN, and even
MoinMoin so the world can interface with some things that it has
some (good / market leading) experience with [2].

Other than that, FreeBSD is great :)

[1]
http://wiki.freebsd.org/WhatsNew/FreeBSD10

[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_wiki_software
 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_issue_tracking_systems
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_help_desk_issue_tracking_software
 http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software_(PHP)
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software
 http://www.simplemachines.org/
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