Re: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
Interestingly Comcast actually wrote back. They said: "Thank you for writing to Comcast. I apologize for any inconvenience that you may be experiencing. For now the information that we have available is that you will be able to use a router on our network. More information will be released as the transition draws closer. Thank you again for contacting Comcast. Elizabeth L Comcast Online Customer Support Center" I kind of liked the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" method, which someone mentioned so kind of wish I'd just kept quiet, but I'm sure they're very aware of all the routers out there. I would assume that their all a dead givaway based on their MAC addresses. Just thought I'd close the loop on this. Thanks for all the feedback, GGK Greg Kettmann wrote: Sorry if this is somewhat off topic. Perhaps it's not since it involves Linux and NAT. I have many friends using "Broadband Routers" that I've set up. As I imagine we all know these allow one machine to act like a proxy for a group of other machines. (Yes, I know it's technically not a proxy and that it uses NAT. I'm speaking in concepts. Hey, for that matter it's not really a Router.) With the Comcast acquisition of ATTBI there is a "Transition Wizard". They say it must be applied by the end of the month. Using that requires signing a new Subscriber Agreement. Section 6, subsection g of this states: Theft of Service. You will not connect the Service or any Comcast Equipment to more computers, either on or outside of the Premises, than are reflected in your account with us. You acknowledge that any unauthorized receipt of the Service constitutes theft of service, which is a violation of federal law and can result in both civil and criminal penalties. In addition, if the violations are willful and for commercial advantage or private financial gain, the penalties may be increased. Now, technically no one is connecting any additional machines to the "Service" just to the machine which is making Internet requests on their behalf. Also, and I know the laws are really flakey in this area, but wouldn't intercepting, decoding and reading my traffic be a breach of my privacy as well as a violation of the reverse engineering laws? One of my friends is a bit concerned so I wrote a note to Comcast, requesting a clarification of the passage, particularly as it applies to "Broadband Routers". I included questions on privacy and packet disassembly and tried to keep it very polite. I suspect that this is pretty much business as usual but wanted to hear about the issues from the experts. I appreciate any feedback or suggestions. Thanks, GGK
RE: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
As an aside to this, it's interesting how some cable ISPs are configured differently than others. I was on attbi for a little over a year, and with them I had to actually register each of my PCs that I wanted to be on the system, and they only allowed me to keep two on record at a time. This was a PIA because at the time I did not use a router and was simply swapping the cat5 between boxes. I had my home desktop, my work laptop and my wife's work laptop that we wanted to have easy access. Additionally, when my sister-in-law visited she would like to hook her laptop up sometimes. I got them to allow a third MAC to be listed on a permanent basis without a charge (they normally wanted extra $ for this!), but I think I was just very lucky at couldn't get any others. For the last year or so I've been w/ metrocast and until just last month I was still without a router. However, their system doesn't give a darn what machine I hook up to the modem. I have swapped the cat5 between five different machines without any issues more than the occasional need to cycle power on the cable modem. Usually I've been able to just swap the network cable and give it a couple minutes to sync up with the new computer. When I did finally hook up a router box there were no issues at all. It reminds me of how the cable service I had about 10 years ago in Nebraska made you rent their converter boxes ( $5/month ). I didn't have any premium channels, and never use PPV, but it was required for service. When I hooked directly up to my VCR I was still able to get all the basic channels I had contracted for, but I could not remove the converter box from my account since they had determined it was mandatory for them to be able to ensure service. It just torques me off when a company (phone, ISP, cable, whatever) charges or limits access for no real technical reason, simply because they want to get a few extra $ / month out of us. /rant -Lawrence -Original Message- From: Tom Buskey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 12:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement Greg Kettmann wrote: I kind of liked the Don't Ask, Don't Tell method, which someone mentioned so kind of wish I'd just kept quiet, but I'm sure they're very aware of all the routers out there. I would assume that their all a dead givaway based on their MAC addresses. Most cable firewall routers let you set the external mac. Set it to be the same as the PC you signed up with and you never have to tell che cable company what you did. With most Linux ( BSD) systems you can set the MAC address that's used. I signed up with my wife's PC with a 3com card. My firewall is a Sun with the same MAC address. There are ways to detect a NAT'd subnet (discussed on Slashdot awhile ago). OpenBSD has already been patched to defeat it for the paranoid amongst us. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
RE: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 13:51, Tilly, Lawrence wrote: As an aside to this, it's interesting how some cable ISPs are configured differently than others. I was on attbi for a little over a year, and with them I had to actually register each of my PCs that I wanted to be on the Having worked with a few cable co's behind the scenes... Most of this sort of stuff about registering your MAC addy's and whatnot was born out of their ignorance and fear of people ripping of the service. I think that when the register-the-MAC rule was put in place they didn't realize how easy it is to spoof a MAC address. A lot of that stuff also predates the DOCSIS standards and modern CMTS systems, which make it much easier to manage things on an IP basis vs. a MAC address basis. I too have been a victim of the you have to but this to get that scheme. When I signed up for my cable modem I had to either A) buy a basic (13 channel) cable package for $10.00/mo, or B) Pay $10.00 for some crazy access fee thing. I had (still have) DirecTV, so there was no use for the basic cable service, but I opted for that vs. paying $10.00 for a non-tangible service. Either way, it was a bunch of B.S., and effectively made the cable modem $10.00 higher than the advertised price. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
On Tue, 2003-06-10 at 06:38, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of the things I read in attbi.ne.techtalk.general is that all a Linux user like me has to do is config different IP addrs for the POP, SMTP and NNTP servers, reportedly these: send email (SMTP):smtp.comcast.net receive email (POP3): pop3.comcast.net news (NNTP): news.comcast.giganews.com I just talked to Comcast phone support and said I was a Linux user and needed the info (to paraphrase Dr. Evil). They were quite helpful and succint. The information I got for Nashua was: outgoing email: smtp.comcast.net incoming email: mail.comcast.net (POP3) They confirmed nothing else needed changing (didn't ask about news). My new email will be my old username in the comcast.net domain. They said the existing username would *not* be carried over in all cases. The changes are affective 00:00 EDT 7/1/03. I personally would manually set this stuff even if I were using windoze. I don't want to be coerced into checking any boxes on some online signup thing. Of course I try to never use my windoze box on the internet, mostly a matter of principle. Note their webpages state that continued use of their service is implicit agreement to their terms and conditions. They did not mention issues with email forwarding when not using the transition wizard, although I did not specifically ask. -dl -- David A. Long JumpShift, LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
This was cut from the email announcement. Time is running out to make the transition to Comcast High-Speed Internet. Take a couple of minutes to make the necessary changes now. If you have already downloaded the Transition Wizard, the only thing you need to do is restart your computer on or after June 30. (my emphasis) If you do not choose to use our easy Transition Wizard by June 30, 2003, you will not be able to take advantage of attbi.com e-mail forwarding - but you will still have high-speed Internet access. If you have not already made the transition, simply: I believe from this that attbi email forwarding will not be available if the transition wizard is not used Michael O'Donnell wrote: What is even more disturbing from their latest notice to subscribers is the fact that unless you use their update agent, you will not be able to use the att email forwarding That to me seems wrong, coupled with the fact that the update agent only works on OE, not any other email client... Ascribe not to malevolent collusion that which can be adequately explained by incompetence or inertia. ;- Again, I urge attbi.com customers to read their attbi-specific newsgroups if you'd like info that's a bit more useful than what's available from the clueless lowest-common-denominator messages sent out by the ATTBI marketing dept. This is apparently how the email situation will shake out: - Your old email address will (in most cases) continue to be valid for some period of time. - Emails sent to your old address will be handled by the same server that will be handling msgs sent to your new address. - The hostnames for the old email servers will NOT be valid after the transition. So, for a while, email to both old and new addresses will be valid. However, unless you tell your email software about the new servers (which I mentioned previously) you won't be able to send or receive ANY email, old or new. This is true for Linux users as well as Windows users, and you are not required to run the wizard as long as you're comfortable making the appropriate changes by hand. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
This was cut from the email announcement. Yes, that would be an example of one of those lowest-common-denominator messages I referred to. [.] I believe from this that attbi email forwarding will not be available if the transition wizard is not used You are, of course, free to believe whatever you like. However, rather than us inflicting any more of our (mostly) ATTBI-specific exchange on this captive GNHLUG audience, I (again) recommend that you avail yourself of the info presented in the newsgroups I mentioned before coming to any conclusions in this matter. Unless you run Windows, that is, in which case you should probably just go ahead and use the wizard. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, at 5:58pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Section 6, subsection g of [Comcast's TOS] states ... I'm pretty sure ATT Broadband's TOS has similar prohibitions on multiplexing their service. They also prohibit a number of other things. At one time, you could read their TOS as prohibiting non-Windows OSes, but I think they changed that. What is even more disturbing from their latest notice to subscribers is the fact that unless you use their update agent, you will not be able to use the att email forwardingThat to me seems wrong, coupled with the fact that the update agent only works on OE, not any other email client... ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
I recall that Comcast is tight with Microsoft. MS made a big investment in Comcast a few years ago. On Tue, 2003-06-10 at 10:31, Chris wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, at 5:58pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Section 6, subsection g of [Comcast's TOS] states ... I'm pretty sure ATT Broadband's TOS has similar prohibitions on multiplexing their service. They also prohibit a number of other things. At one time, you could read their TOS as prohibiting non-Windows OSes, but I think they changed that. What is even more disturbing from their latest notice to subscribers is the fact that unless you use their update agent, you will not be able to use the att email forwardingThat to me seems wrong, coupled with the fact that the update agent only works on OE, not any other email client... ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 06:35:01PM -0400, Michael O'Donnell wrote: .. One of the things I read in attbi.ne.techtalk.general is that all a Linux user like me has to do is config different IP addrs for the POP, SMTP and NNTP servers, reportedly these: send email (SMTP):smtp.comcast.net receive email (POP3): pop3.comcast.net news (NNTP): news.comcast.giganews.com Spoke to Mark at comcast customer service: Verified - The New news server will be : nntp://news.comcast.giganews.com Limited to 1 GB per month. Overages deducted from the next month's download quota (And what happens if you go over that? ) -- Jeff Kinz, Open-PC, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. [EMAIL PROTECTED] copyright 2003. Use is restricted. Any use is an acceptance of the offer at http://www.kinz.org/policy.html. Don't forget to change your password often. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:22:48 -0400 Jeff Kinz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 06:35:01PM -0400, Michael O'Donnell wrote: .. One of the things I read in attbi.ne.techtalk.general is that all a Linux user like me has to do is config different IP addrs for the POP, SMTP and NNTP servers, reportedly these: send email (SMTP):smtp.comcast.net receive email (POP3): pop3.comcast.net news (NNTP): news.comcast.giganews.com Spoke to Mark at comcast customer service: Verified - The New news server will be : nntp://news.comcast.giganews.com Limited to 1 GB per month. Overages deducted from the next month's download quota (And what happens if you go over that? ) A $$$ conscious company will charge you. A dumb company will cut you off when your quota reaches zero. A smart company will allow you to borrow either for a period of time or until your quota goes to zero then charge you. -- Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
It's a big pig, little pig thing. The story goes something like this: There were two baby pigs. Every night after the farmer had gone to bed, they would sneak under the wire, steal a bit of grain from the barn, eat it and and then sneak back before morning. One of the pigs had a larger appetite than the other and would eat a bit more each night. This went on for while until the more ravenous pig got too big to sneak back under the wire and got stuck there. Well, the farmer awoke to find a nice fattened pig there one Sunday morning. He sure made a fine meal that evening. -- __ | 0|___||. Andrew Gaunt *nix Sys. Admin,, etc. Lucent Technologies _| _| : : } [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www-cde.mv.lucent.com/~quantum -(O)-==-o\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.gaunt.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, at 5:58pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Section 6, subsection g of [Comcast's TOS] states ... I'm pretty sure ATT Broadband's TOS has similar prohibitions on multiplexing their service. They also prohibit a number of other things. At one time, you could read their TOS as prohibiting non-Windows OSes, but I think they changed that. Most ISPs also state that they can terminate your service at any time and for any reason, so the specifics really don't matter much anyway. As far as reality goes, must high-speed ISPs follow a don't ask, don't tell policy. As long as you're not causing a problem, they really don't care what you do. So, if you're just browsing from a couple different computers in your home, they likely don't know or care. If you start sucking up massive amounts of bandwidth, or sharing it with others, or call their tech support for help with your router, *then* you're costing them money, and they'll drop the hammer on you. Also, and I know the laws are really flakey in this area, but wouldn't intercepting, decoding and reading my traffic be a breach of my privacy as well as a violation of the reverse engineering laws? Well, IANAL, but AFAIK, all said laws have specific provisions allowing service operators to do what is necessary to maintain and protect their operations. I've had this argument with spammers before, and I can quote specific parts of a few laws if you like. :-) ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
The only document I ever signed was the Continental Cablevision document. Somewhere in my archives I may have email from a VP authorizing an internal network. I could probably use that if Comcast starts playing hardball but it would be more like, our agreement supercedes that, cease and desist. -- Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
The only document I ever signed was the Continental Cablevision document. Somewhere in my archives I may have email from a VP authorizing an internal network. I could probably use that if Comcast starts playing hardball but it would be more like, our agreement supercedes that, cease and desist. Except that all of those things have a nice disclaimer that basically states that they can change it at any time at any reason to anything and not tell you, you just have to go look at the agreement online every once and a while. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:59:05 -0400 Travis Roy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Except that all of those things have a nice disclaimer that basically states that they can change it at any time at any reason to anything and not tell you, you just have to go look at the agreement online every once and a while. That is true. But, it gives me some wiggle room if they decide to cut me off. -- Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
Sorry if this is somewhat off topic. Perhaps it's not since it involves Linux and NAT. I have many friends using "Broadband Routers" that I've set up. As I imagine we all know these allow one machine to act like a proxy for a group of other machines. (Yes, I know it's technically not a proxy and that it uses NAT. I'm speaking in concepts. Hey, for that matter it's not really a Router.) With the Comcast acquisition of ATTBI there is a "Transition Wizard". They say it must be applied by the end of the month. Using that requires signing a new Subscriber Agreement. Section 6, subsection g of this states: Theft of Service. You will not connect the Service or any Comcast Equipment to more computers, either on or outside of the Premises, than are reflected in your account with us. You acknowledge that any unauthorized receipt of the Service constitutes theft of service, which is a violation of federal law and can result in both civil and criminal penalties. In addition, if the violations are willful and for commercial advantage or private financial gain, the penalties may be increased. Now, technically no one is connecting any additional machines to the "Service" just to the machine which is making Internet requests on their behalf. Also, and I know the laws are really flakey in this area, but wouldn't intercepting, decoding and reading my traffic be a breach of my privacy as well as a violation of the reverse engineering laws? One of my friends is a bit concerned so I wrote a note to Comcast, requesting a clarification of the passage, particularly as it applies to "Broadband Routers". I included questions on privacy and packet disassembly and tried to keep it very polite. I suspect that this is pretty much business as usual but wanted to hear about the issues from the experts. I appreciate any feedback or suggestions. Thanks, GGK
Re: OT- Comcast Subscriber Agreement
FYI, machines within the attbi.com domain can connect to the NNTP server(s) named netnews.attbi.com and you may find some postings of interest related to this topic. The best group is probably attbi.ne.techtalk.general ...but there are a number of others that might also provide info of interest, like maybe: attbi.users-unix attbi.discussion-attbiservice attbi.discussion-cablemodem attbi.discussion-email attbi.discussion-games attbi.discussion-general attbi.discussion-homenetworking attbi.discussion-newsgroup attbi.discussion-security attbi.users-cablemodem attbi.announcements These newsgroups used to be much better but the S/N ratio has deteriorated as The Great Unwashed have slowly infiltrated and many of the most knowledgeable people have consequently wandered away in frustration. Click-thru agreements don't always hold up in court but since some ignorant ComCast droid can hold your connection hostage while you work out your differences it would probably be nice to either stay on ComCast's good side or completely off their radar. BTW, I've heard that those stupid wizards don't do anything to your Windows PeeCee that you couldn't do by hand, like tweaking IP addrs and registry entries and such, so you might be able to skirt the issue entirely by doing it all by hand. That would presumably leave the previous agreement in force, yes? One of the things I read in attbi.ne.techtalk.general is that all a Linux user like me has to do is config different IP addrs for the POP, SMTP and NNTP servers, reportedly these: send email (SMTP):smtp.comcast.net receive email (POP3): pop3.comcast.net news (NNTP): news.comcast.giganews.com ...which, presumably would work for Windows, too, right? NOTICE: I have NOT verified that information and IANAL. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
