Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On Sat, 2 Apr 2016, Marco van de Voort wrote: On Fri, Apr 01, 2016 at 08:58:14AM +0200, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: they've learned to love on Linux. I seriously doubt this will have any effect. Most (if not all) of their admin tools are GUI based. That makes scripting them impossibile. Which is the point of scripting. Most of those are based on COM/WMI and can be scripted very confortably and OO in powershell. That's no good to you in bash. Michael. -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On Fri, Apr 01, 2016 at 08:58:14AM +0200, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: > > they've learned to love on Linux. > > I seriously doubt this will have any effect. > > Most (if not all) of their admin tools are GUI based. > That makes scripting them impossibile. Which is the point of scripting. Most of those are based on COM/WMI and can be scripted very confortably and OO in powershell. -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On 2016-04-01 12:44, Santiago A. wrote: > > Me too, but it would a nice plus if you also give me nice UI. I guess then you have best of both worlds - at the expense of the developer that had to implement all that. :) In fact my mail server (SurgeMail) has exactly what you suggest. I can edit text config files directly, use a console tool to set values one at a time, or use the built-in webserver and web interface. No matter what interface you use, all settings are stored in the same text config files. I remember from years back, SuSE and OpenSuSE linux distro had some fancy config tool called YaST, which had a Console and GUI interface for managing pretty much every service included with the distro. So with that being said, maybe SuSE is then a good recommendation for any Windows centric admins moving to Linux. Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/ My public PGP key: http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
El 01/04/2016 a las 13:19, Graeme Geldenhuys escribió: > Give me good old text configs any time of the time. Easy to edit, easy > to backup. > Me too, but it would a nice plus if you also give me nice UI. Although I had sometimes to edit configuration of virtual hosts with includes etc, I don't think plesk or cpanel or webmin are bad steps. -- Saludos Santi s...@ciberpiula.net -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On 04/01/2016 01:23 PM, Sven Barth wrote: "it" meant the GUI, I see. I misunderstood that with "only with Windows Store Apps" you wanted to exclude "normal" Windows services. -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
Am 01.04.2016 13:21 schrieb "Michael Schnell" : > > On 04/01/2016 01:13 PM, Sven Barth wrote: >> >> >> However classical WinAPI can't access it. You can access it only with Windows Store Apps and then only one at a time. Though you can runs these platforms headless as well without problems. >> > That is not true (and a very common misconception). > > A colleague of min already did run Windows services done with Delphi on Win IoT. > > The complete Windows API seems to work if you don't use GUI functions (which would be called widgets in Linux). Timers and TCP/IP do work . "it" meant the GUI, WinAPI applications can not access the GUI on IoT systems. From our past discussions you should know that I know that by now. Regards, Sven -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On 04/01/2016 01:13 PM, Sven Barth wrote: However classical WinAPI can't access it. You can access it only with Windows Store Apps and then only one at a time. Though you can runs these platforms headless as well without problems. That is not true (and a very common misconception). A colleague of min already did run Windows services done with Delphi on Win IoT. The complete Windows API seems to work if you don't use GUI functions (which would be called widgets in Linux). Timers and TCP/IP do work . -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On 2016-04-01 10:22, Santiago A. wrote: > but 90% of times you shouldn't have to mess with > configuration files, each one with its one syntax (that's what many unix > products miss and windows shines) This only seems to be an issue for Windows centric people - for everybody else it has never been a problem. I have been maintaining Unix-like servers for years. All types of services (web, mail, news, NFS etc). I've never had a problem configuring them via config files, and the documentation and examples were always excellent. As for support (when you are stuck). Post your config file somewhere on the web, others can take a look and immediately instruct you on what you did wrong. Under Windows, you have NO such option, because the configuration is hidden is some binary blob or deep in the registry mess. Give me good old text configs any time of the time. Easy to edit, easy to backup. Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/ My public PGP key: http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
Am 01.04.2016 09:52 schrieb "Michael Van Canneyt" : > > > > On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Michael Schnell wrote: > >> On 04/01/2016 08:58 AM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: >>> >>> >>> Some years ago they announced that the sever could run "without GUI". >> >> >> In fact "Windows IOT" is windows 10 without the GUI API (i.e. you can run Aervicesm but you can't run applications). >> >> So this is viable/sensible/possible in the end. > > > "Windows IOT" is a misnomer. Windows = GUI. The name kind of gives it away. However classical WinAPI can't access it. You can access it only with Windows Store Apps and then only one at a time. Though you can runs these platforms headless as well without problems. Regards, Sven -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
El 01/04/2016 a las 10:37, Michael Van Canneyt escribió: > I cannot understand that Canonical agreed to cooperate on this. > It's called shooting in your own foot... > Me neither. >> And don't deceive yourself. Scripts are the most powerful solution, but >> a GUI need less knowledge and expertise, so they may be cheaper in the >> long run. > > You therewith assert that microsoft advocates ignorance and stupidity > ? :-) It is a wise strategy. There are more middle users than gurus. > All very nice till you hit a really hard problem and then you need to > call an expert anyway, who charges you astronomical amounts of money > for deleting a > registry key or so. It's a nice deceit... Yes, when you hit a hard problem, windows is a blackbox. There is the old linux saying "Windows makes easy what is easy and impossible what is difficult". You needn't to convince me. Nevertheless, Unix world should have more configurations tools with a good UI (graphic or not). If you need to do hard things, you must be able to tweak with well documented configuration files (that's what windows doesn't have and unix products shines), but 90% of times you shouldn't have to mess with configuration files, each one with its one syntax (that's what many unix products miss and windows shines) The Cherokee web server (now a dead project) offered a configuration utility with a web UI as part of the product. That is the right path. Well, this is going too off topic. -- Saludos Santiago A. s...@ciberpiula.net -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Santiago A. wrote: I agree that is not easy. Windows has created his own set of services, uses a strange jargon and nomenclature for services and stuff that has been there for years in unix world. But that's its strategy: Make unix admins a little more comfortable with windows concepts, jargon and products. Maybe next time a unix admin faces a windows product, he won't push for only-unix solution so hard. Yes, they are a wolf in sheepskin... I cannot understand that Canonical agreed to cooperate on this. It's called shooting in your own foot... And don't deceive yourself. Scripts are the most powerful solution, but a GUI need less knowledge and expertise, so they may be cheaper in the long run. You therewith assert that microsoft advocates ignorance and stupidity ? :-) All very nice till you hit a really hard problem and then you need to call an expert anyway, who charges you astronomical amounts of money for deleting a registry key or so. It's a nice deceit... Michael. -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On 2016-04-01 07:58, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: > Most (if not all) of their admin tools are GUI based. > That makes scripting them impossibile. Plus the fact that you can transfer existing configurations to newly built servers to replace the old ones. On Unix/Linux, it is simply a matter of copying config files from /etc/ and /usr/local/etc/. Can't get easier (and more convenient) than that. > Some years ago they announced that the sever could run "without GUI". > I think it was windows server 2012. Till you need to run an installer Haha... very good point. :) Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/ My public PGP key: http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
El 01/04/2016 a las 8:58, Michael Van Canneyt escribió: > >> They are going after the whole Linux.Unix system. They want Linux >> admins and >> developers to realize that they can have good GUI development and >> server-management >> tools available on Windows and still have all the command line goodies >> they've learned to love on Linux. > > I seriously doubt this will have any effect. > > Most (if not all) of their admin tools are GUI based. That makes > scripting them impossibile. Which is the point of scripting. > > Some years ago they announced that the sever could run "without GUI". > I think it was windows server 2012. Till you need to run an installer to > install some software... And all windows software installers are GUI > based. > > We threw out windows servers, and the admin crew is all the more happy > for > it, because now they can script literally everything. > > More importantly, windows is still a black box. Something happens, you > get > completely stuck. I still need to encounter the problem I cannot solve > with > the use of strace on linux. Denis Kozlov is right about Microsoft is going after Linux market. Well, not exactly Linux market, but after "cloud" market, that is, servers that offer internet services. Most admins of internet servers are unix experts and not windows experts, and that is a problem for Microsoft because it offers a whole ecosystem, not products. What you say is right also. It is very difficult to attract unix admins to windows world. What Microsoft is trying to do is attract unix users in both directions: Offer products for unix ecosystem (azure, SQL server...) and let unix products work in his ecosystem. I agree that is not easy. Windows has created his own set of services, uses a strange jargon and nomenclature for services and stuff that has been there for years in unix world. But that's its strategy: Make unix admins a little more comfortable with windows concepts, jargon and products. Maybe next time a unix admin faces a windows product, he won't push for only-unix solution so hard. And don't deceive yourself. Scripts are the most powerful solution, but a GUI need less knowledge and expertise, so they may be cheaper in the long run. -- Saludos Santiago A. s...@ciberpiula.net -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Michael Schnell wrote: On 04/01/2016 09:53 AM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: "Windows IOT" is a misnomer. Windows = GUI. The name kind of gives it away. Of course language-wise you are right, but politically of course M$ needs to stick to the "Windows" name, even if stripping off any sense of that. This kind of reasoning only can come from marketeers. It's a bit like BMW with their huge version of the 'mini'. Someone should explain to them what 'mini' actually means... Luckily, Douglas Adams had good ideas about what to do with such people :-) Anyway, we are diverting. Michael. -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On 04/01/2016 09:53 AM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: "Windows IOT" is a misnomer. Windows = GUI. The name kind of gives it away. Of course language-wise you are right, but politically of course M$ needs to stick to the "Windows" name, even if stripping off any sense of that. The full name is "Windows 10 IoT Core" -> https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot. In fact they renamed "embedded" to "IOT" which again is a misnomer, as you can happily and viably do deeply embedded devices using that OS that don't have any internet connectivity or not even a network interface at all. (Of course Microsoft ".NET" was a misnomer as well, as the ".NET framework" that drives CIL (and with that languages like C#, IronPython, Oxygene and some others) hast nothing to do with any network at all). With their wordings, the M$ salesmen seem to desperately try to hide that the Linux world is ,more competent with networking ;-) . -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On Thursday 31 March 2016 20:30:59 Anthony Walter wrote: > I thought this was newsworthy and of interest to us: > > https://blog.xamarin.com/xamarin-for-all/ A date effect maybe? ;-) Martin -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Michael Schnell wrote: On 04/01/2016 08:58 AM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: Some years ago they announced that the sever could run "without GUI". In fact "Windows IOT" is windows 10 without the GUI API (i.e. you can run Aervicesm but you can't run applications). So this is viable/sensible/possible in the end. "Windows IOT" is a misnomer. Windows = GUI. The name kind of gives it away. Michael. -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On 04/01/2016 08:58 AM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: Some years ago they announced that the sever could run "without GUI". In fact "Windows IOT" is windows 10 without the GUI API (i.e. you can run Aervicesm but you can't run applications). So this is viable/sensible/possible in the end. -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On 03/31/2016 08:30 PM, Anthony Walter wrote: I thought this was newsworthy and of interest to us: Am I wrong feeling that the (IMHO rather viable) CIL (aka".Net") initiative, once launched by Microsoft is declining due to the ubiquitous rise of Java ? In fact Microsoft took Silverlight to grave, recently I did not hear much about Mono and Moonlight, Open sourcing Xamarin to me seems just a sign that nobody can earn any money with same, so it's just another indication of the thesis. The fpc community never seemed to have much interest for CIL (Embarcadero started two questionable attempts with "Delphi for .Net" and the acquisition of Oxygen). fpc instead seems to be rather far into creating Java/Dalvik Byte/Word code -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On Thu, 31 Mar 2016, vfclists . wrote: On 31 March 2016 at 21:56, Denis Kozlov wrote: On 31/03/2016 21:31, vfclists . wrote: They are going all out against Apple and Redhat. You meant Apple and Google maybe? They target Windows, Mac/iOS and Android. A wide selection of supported platforms is where FPC and Lazarus defiantly have an edge. Denis They are going after the whole Linux.Unix system. They want Linux admins and developers to realize that they can have good GUI development and server-management tools available on Windows and still have all the command line goodies they've learned to love on Linux. I seriously doubt this will have any effect. Most (if not all) of their admin tools are GUI based. That makes scripting them impossibile. Which is the point of scripting. Some years ago they announced that the sever could run "without GUI". I think it was windows server 2012. Till you need to run an installer to install some software... And all windows software installers are GUI based. We threw out windows servers, and the admin crew is all the more happy for it, because now they can script literally everything. More importantly, windows is still a black box. Something happens, you get completely stuck. I still need to encounter the problem I cannot solve with the use of strace on linux. Michael. -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On 31.03.2016 23:14, vfclists . wrote: > > They have recently announced Bash for Windows and they are aiming to get > a lot of Unix tools running easily on Windows. > In fact those tools have been there for a while but they were not > seriously promoted. > They announced the ability to run ELF binaries on Windows. Basically an advanced/improved version of their POSIX/Unix subsystem that they had from NT times till Windows 8 (exclusive if I remember correctly). Unlike then the binaries now run as is (back then one needed to compile them from source with an adjusted gcc, but it worked rather nicely :) ) Regards, Sven -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On 31 March 2016 at 21:56, Denis Kozlov wrote: > On 31/03/2016 21:31, vfclists . wrote: > >> They are going all out against Apple and Redhat. >> > > You meant Apple and Google maybe? They target Windows, Mac/iOS and Android. > > A wide selection of supported platforms is where FPC and Lazarus defiantly > have an edge. > > Denis > > > Microsoft earns some patent fees from every single Android device sold. They've lost the mobile war for the next few years to come until Xamarin makes app development easy for Windows for developers to produce more apps for the mobile platform. They are definitely going after Redhat, and Oracle in the short-term. They are not going the mistake they made with Apple. SQL Server will be available for Linux quite soon. They have recently announced Bash for Windows and they are aiming to get a lot of Unix tools running easily on Windows. In fact those tools have been there for a while but they were not seriously promoted. They are going after the whole Linux.Unix system. They want Linux admins and developers to realize that they can have good GUI development and server-management tools available on Windows and still have all the command line goodies they've learned to love on Linux. Given the lack of integrated toolsets available for Linux, they will probably make it. -- Frank Church === http://devblog.brahmancreations.com -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On 31/03/2016 21:31, vfclists . wrote: They are going all out against Apple and Redhat. You meant Apple and Google maybe? They target Windows, Mac/iOS and Android. A wide selection of supported platforms is where FPC and Lazarus defiantly have an edge. Denis -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On Thu, 31 Mar 2016, Maciej Izak wrote: 2016-03-31 20:30 GMT+02:00 Anthony Walter : I thought this was newsworthy and of interest to us: https://blog.xamarin.com/xamarin-for-all/ kind of inspiration for better Lazarus and FreePascal I fail to see how ? Michael. -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 4:31 PM, vfclists . wrote: > > Microsoft are not interested in FreePascal and Lazarus. > > They are going all out against Apple and Redhat. > Xamarin is using native controls, just like LCL does. -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
On 31 March 2016 at 20:21, Maciej Izak wrote: > > 2016-03-31 20:30 GMT+02:00 Anthony Walter : > >> I thought this was newsworthy and of interest to us: >> >> https://blog.xamarin.com/xamarin-for-all/ >> > > kind of inspiration for better Lazarus and FreePascal? > > Microsoft are not interested in FreePascal and Lazarus. They are going all out against Apple and Redhat. -- Frank Church === http://devblog.brahmancreations.com -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
2016-03-31 20:30 GMT+02:00 Anthony Walter : > I thought this was newsworthy and of interest to us: > > https://blog.xamarin.com/xamarin-for-all/ > kind of inspiration for better Lazarus and FreePascal? -- Best regards, Maciej Izak -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
[Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source
I thought this was newsworthy and of interest to us: https://blog.xamarin.com/xamarin-for-all/ -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus