Re: Reading tables in Safari

[Sarah k Alawami]

True. I love chrome and do use it for those troublesome pages or when I feel 
like it. lol! Chrome vox also works. There is a list for discussing the use of 
google chrome and i can give that info publically if one wants. 

Be blessed all.
On Jul 30, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Bryan Jones  wrote:

> I've found Chrome with VO handles some tables better than Safari. In 
> addition, if you install the ChromeVox extension and take an hour or two to 
> learn the ChromeVox navigation keys, you will have an additional TTS option 
> when attempting to navigate troublesome tables.
> 
> HTH,
> Bryan
> 
> On Jul 30, 2013, at 4:44 PM, Andy Collins  wrote:
>> Well Chris - if you're struggling as well, as you are further down the road 
>> than me, clearly there is an issue, so let's hope somebody has some tips -
> 
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
> 
> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
> mac-access@mac-access.net
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
> 
> or at the public Mail Archive:
> .
> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
> 
> 
> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
> worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security 
> strategy.  We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something 
> unpredictable happen.
> 
> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by 
> visiting the list website at:
> 
> 

<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
either the list's own dedicated web archive:

or at the public Mail Archive:
.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:


As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy.  
We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable 
happen.

Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting 
the list website at:

Re: Reading tables in Safari

[Bryan Jones]

I've found Chrome with VO handles some tables better than Safari. In addition, 
if you install the ChromeVox extension and take an hour or two to learn the 
ChromeVox navigation keys, you will have an additional TTS option when 
attempting to navigate troublesome tables.

HTH,
Bryan

On Jul 30, 2013, at 4:44 PM, Andy Collins  wrote:
> Well Chris - if you're struggling as well, as you are further down the road 
> than me, clearly there is an issue, so let's hope somebody has some tips -

<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
either the list's own dedicated web archive:

or at the public Mail Archive:
.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:


As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy.  
We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable 
happen.

Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting 
the list website at:

Re: Reading tables in Safari

[Sarah k Alawami]

Sounds about right I deal with tables all the time with safari and voice over. 
Never on other platforms unless I have to, and I just visualize those as  I had 
to train myself how to do that because of a class lol!  I guess all you can do 
is just imagine the space the table takes up on a piece of paper or vertically 
on a screen and imagine it expanding and shrinking to fi the table row and 
column's need.  That probably does not make sense but the 3 years I've been 
using a mac this is what I've had to do and it works, but you will find your 
own way of thinking of these tables.

Take care.
On Jul 30, 2013, at 2:08 PM, David Griffith  wrote:

> I think that probably what you may be experiencing is a non uniform table.
> As far as I am aware voiceover does not announce a non unified table layout
> to alert you to this problem.
> The non unified table layout will have varying columns and row  arrangements
> throughout the table. Row one may have 3 columns and row 2 may have 6
> columns for example.
> So when coordinates are read outs as you move through the table this may
> create a result which may not be easy to visualise without sight.
> A solution may be to decrease Voiceover verbosity so that coordinates are
> not read out which may make the table slightly more comprehensible.
> 
> Mac OS is generally pretty dreadful at handling tables but in this instance
> Windows Screenreaders are little better though they will within documents
> indicate if a table is non uniform. The solution generally on other
> platforms is to copy the table off the web to a document format  in which
> the table can be edited so that it becomes a regular uniform table . This is
> impossible to achieve in Mac Os Word Processors but may be possible in a
> Numbers  or tables Spreadsheet. As I never bother trying to handle tables
> under Mac OS  I will have to defer to other people's experience here as to
> whether this is a feasible work around. It is definitely a job which it is
> useful to have sighted support for. I used to use my DSA support for these
> sorts of problematic tables.
> 
> David Griffith
> Unfortunately on all platforms,   I needed to use sighted support if I
> wanted important table information..
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: mac-access-boun...@mac-access.net
> [mailto:mac-access-boun...@mac-access.net] On Behalf Of Chris H
> Sent: 30 July 2013 21:36
> To: Mac OSX & iOS Accessibility
> Subject: Re: Reading tables in Safari
> 
> Andy, I have the same problem. Any help greatly appreciated.
> 
> On 30/07/2013 20:35, Andy Collins wrote:
>> Hi all -
>> 
>> When I try to do this using VO and the arrow keys, I get lost, things
> don't read in a way that makes much sense.
>> 
>> If I arrow down, VO announces "ro 4," and the next down arrow will say 
>> "row 7," and down again will say "row 5." so clearly, isn't really 
>> helping me see which rows go with which columns. Are there any 
>> tricks/tips for working with tables on a webpage, or any kind of table 
>> really? -
>> 
>> Andy
>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
>> 
>> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
>> mac-access@mac-access.net
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum
> at either the list's own dedicated web archive:
>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html>
>> or at the public Mail Archive:
>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>.
>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml>
>> 
>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure
> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and
> worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security
> strategy.  We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something
> unpredictable happen.
>> 
>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by
> visiting the list website at:
>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/>
>> 
>> .
>> 
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
> 
> To reply to this post, please address your message to
> mac-access@mac-access.net
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at
> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html>
> or at the public Mail Archive:
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>.
> Subscri

RE: Reading tables in Safari

[David Griffith]

I think that probably what you may be experiencing is a non uniform table.
As far as I am aware voiceover does not announce a non unified table layout
to alert you to this problem.
The non unified table layout will have varying columns and row  arrangements
throughout the table. Row one may have 3 columns and row 2 may have 6
columns for example.
So when coordinates are read outs as you move through the table this may
create a result which may not be easy to visualise without sight.
A solution may be to decrease Voiceover verbosity so that coordinates are
not read out which may make the table slightly more comprehensible.

Mac OS is generally pretty dreadful at handling tables but in this instance
Windows Screenreaders are little better though they will within documents
indicate if a table is non uniform. The solution generally on other
platforms is to copy the table off the web to a document format  in which
the table can be edited so that it becomes a regular uniform table . This is
impossible to achieve in Mac Os Word Processors but may be possible in a
Numbers  or tables Spreadsheet. As I never bother trying to handle tables
under Mac OS  I will have to defer to other people's experience here as to
whether this is a feasible work around. It is definitely a job which it is
useful to have sighted support for. I used to use my DSA support for these
sorts of problematic tables.

David Griffith
Unfortunately on all platforms,   I needed to use sighted support if I
wanted important table information..


-Original Message-
From: mac-access-boun...@mac-access.net
[mailto:mac-access-boun...@mac-access.net] On Behalf Of Chris H
Sent: 30 July 2013 21:36
To: Mac OSX & iOS Accessibility
Subject: Re: Reading tables in Safari

Andy, I have the same problem. Any help greatly appreciated.

On 30/07/2013 20:35, Andy Collins wrote:
> Hi all -
>
> When I try to do this using VO and the arrow keys, I get lost, things
don't read in a way that makes much sense.
>
> If I arrow down, VO announces "ro 4," and the next down arrow will say 
> "row 7," and down again will say "row 5." so clearly, isn't really 
> helping me see which rows go with which columns. Are there any 
> tricks/tips for working with tables on a webpage, or any kind of table 
> really? -
>
> Andy
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
>
> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
> mac-access@mac-access.net
>
> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum
at either the list's own dedicated web archive:
> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html>
> or at the public Mail Archive:
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>.
> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml>
>
> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure
that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and
worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security
strategy.  We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something
unpredictable happen.
>
> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by
visiting the list website at:
> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/>
>
> .
>
<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to
mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at
either the list's own dedicated web archive:
<http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html>
or at the public Mail Archive:
<http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
<http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml>

As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that
the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and
worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security
strategy.  We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something
unpredictable happen.

Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by
visiting the list website at:
<http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/>

<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
either the list's own dedicated web archive:
<http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html>
or at the public Mail Archive:
<http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
<http://www

Re: Reading tables in Safari

[Andy Collins]

Well Chris - if you're struggling as well, as you are further down the road 
than me, clearly there is an issue, so let's hope somebody has some tips -

Andy
On 30 Jul 2013, at 21:36, Chris H  wrote:

> Andy, I have the same problem. Any help greatly appreciated.
> 
> On 30/07/2013 20:35, Andy Collins wrote:
>> Hi all -
>> 
>> When I try to do this using VO and the arrow keys, I get lost, things don't 
>> read in a way that makes much sense.
>> 
>> If I arrow down, VO announces "ro 4," and the next down arrow will say "row 
>> 7," and down again will say "row 5…" so clearly, isn't really helping me see 
>> which rows go with which columns. Are there any tricks/tips for working with 
>> tables on a webpage, or any kind of table really? -
>> 
>> Andy
>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
>> 
>> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
>> mac-access@mac-access.net
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
>> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
>> 
>> or at the public Mail Archive:
>> .
>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
>> 
>> 
>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
>> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
>> worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security 
>> strategy.  We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something 
>> unpredictable happen.
>> 
>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by 
>> visiting the list website at:
>> 
>> 
>> .
>> 
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
> 
> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
> mac-access@mac-access.net
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
> 
> or at the public Mail Archive:
> .
> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
> 
> 
> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
> worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security 
> strategy.  We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something 
> unpredictable happen.
> 
> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by 
> visiting the list website at:
> 
> 

<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
either the list's own dedicated web archive:

or at the public Mail Archive:
.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:


As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy.  
We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable 
happen.

Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting 
the list website at:

Re: Reading tables in Safari

[Chris H]

Andy, I have the same problem. Any help greatly appreciated.

On 30/07/2013 20:35, Andy Collins wrote:

Hi all -

When I try to do this using VO and the arrow keys, I get lost, things don't 
read in a way that makes much sense.

If I arrow down, VO announces "ro 4," and the next down arrow will say "row 7," and down 
again will say "row 5…" so clearly, isn't really helping me see which rows go with which columns. 
Are there any tricks/tips for working with tables on a webpage, or any kind of table really? -

Andy
<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
either the list's own dedicated web archive:

or at the public Mail Archive:
.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:


As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy.  
We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable 
happen.

Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting 
the list website at:


.


<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
either the list's own dedicated web archive:

or at the public Mail Archive:
.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:


As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy.  
We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable 
happen.

Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting 
the list website at:

Re: Reading tables in Safari

[Andy Collins]

What adds to the difficulty in reading these tables, is that VO will say 
"column one, expanded across 5 rows." And then I arrow down, and I hear 
different co-ordinates spoken, but there doesn't appear to be a pattern to it. 
I was looking at some savings accounts that had fixed terms for investments, 
and different rates of interest determined by the term, but I couldn't make 
sense of which interest rate applied to which term etc, as I could only read 
horizontally, and not vertically. so, is there a way of reading up and down as 
well as right and left with VO? I know of course the up and down arrows can be 
used, but half the time, reading using the up arrow is the same as using left 
arrow, and down arrow does the same as using the right arrow. Puzzled, and need 
a bit of help. Thanks -

Andy
On 30 Jul 2013, at 20:56, Sarah k Alawami  wrote:

> You  are actually doing it correctly, but check to see if you are in dom vs 
> group mode. You should be in dom mode to read  properly. It might also be the 
> web site coder who messed up as well but those are just my thoughts. 
> 
> Be blessed.
> On Jul 30, 2013, at 12:35 PM, Andy Collins  wrote:
> 
>> Hi all -
>> 
>> When I try to do this using VO and the arrow keys, I get lost, things don't 
>> read in a way that makes much sense.
>> 
>> If I arrow down, VO announces "ro 4," and the next down arrow will say "row 
>> 7," and down again will say "row 5…" so clearly, isn't really helping me see 
>> which rows go with which columns. Are there any tricks/tips for working with 
>> tables on a webpage, or any kind of table really? -
>> 
>> Andy
>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
>> 
>> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
>> mac-access@mac-access.net
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
>> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
>> 
>> or at the public Mail Archive:
>> .
>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
>> 
>> 
>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
>> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
>> worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security 
>> strategy.  We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something 
>> unpredictable happen.
>> 
>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by 
>> visiting the list website at:
>> 
>> 
> 
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
> 
> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
> mac-access@mac-access.net
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
> 
> or at the public Mail Archive:
> .
> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
> 
> 
> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
> worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security 
> strategy.  We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something 
> unpredictable happen.
> 
> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by 
> visiting the list website at:
> 
> 

<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
either the list's own dedicated web archive:

or at the public Mail Archive:
.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:


As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy.  
We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable 
happen.

Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting 
the list website at:

Re: Reading tables in Safari

[Sarah k Alawami]

You  are actually doing it correctly, but check to see if you are in dom vs 
group mode. You should be in dom mode to read  properly. It might also be the 
web site coder who messed up as well but those are just my thoughts. 

Be blessed.
On Jul 30, 2013, at 12:35 PM, Andy Collins  wrote:

> Hi all -
> 
> When I try to do this using VO and the arrow keys, I get lost, things don't 
> read in a way that makes much sense.
> 
> If I arrow down, VO announces "ro 4," and the next down arrow will say "row 
> 7," and down again will say "row 5…" so clearly, isn't really helping me see 
> which rows go with which columns. Are there any tricks/tips for working with 
> tables on a webpage, or any kind of table really? -
> 
> Andy
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
> 
> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
> mac-access@mac-access.net
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
> 
> or at the public Mail Archive:
> .
> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
> 
> 
> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
> worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security 
> strategy.  We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something 
> unpredictable happen.
> 
> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by 
> visiting the list website at:
> 
> 

<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
either the list's own dedicated web archive:

or at the public Mail Archive:
.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:


As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy.  
We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable 
happen.

Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting 
the list website at:

Reading tables in Safari

[Andy Collins]

Hi all -

When I try to do this using VO and the arrow keys, I get lost, things don't 
read in a way that makes much sense.

If I arrow down, VO announces "ro 4," and the next down arrow will say "row 7," 
and down again will say "row 5…" so clearly, isn't really helping me see which 
rows go with which columns. Are there any tricks/tips for working with tables 
on a webpage, or any kind of table really? -

Andy
<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
either the list's own dedicated web archive:

or at the public Mail Archive:
.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:


As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that 
the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
worm-free.  However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy.  
We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable 
happen.

Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting 
the list website at: