[Marxism] Fwd: Materialism and the will. (Was: (no subject))
This is an artifical 'problem' created by a misuse of langauge. More details here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/page_13_03.htm Rosa L On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:34 PM, David Picón Álvarez da...@miradoiro.com wrote: Nonsense, 'will' is an incoherent idea. The mind is a particular organisation of matter in motion. What does it mean to speak of a will? The mind follows all the laws of matter in motion (physics) and its internal development is entirely characterised and described by those laws. This is to say, where could that will come from, or what could it realise in the mind? Either it would have to modify the laws of physics in order to interact with the material world, and if it did we would have noticed by now, or it could have no effect whatsoever (i.e., a mind with and without will would transit through the same states). Even if we postulate something outside matter which interacts with the mind, what does it mean to speak of it as a will? Either it is random, in which case it anulls any conception of freedom, since freedom must related by necessity to acting in accordance to a plan, goals, and the state of the world, or it isn't random, in which case it is either materially determined again (so we can dispense with it) or determined by some other non-material factor (in which case it is no less determinist, just determinist in a different way). --David. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rosa.lichtenstein%40googlemail.com YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Materialism and the will. (Was: (no subject))
Well, I have actually done this already, at RevLeft; here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=894937postcount=2 in which post you will find links to other short posts where I elaborate on this topic. But, mine was a basic Wittgensteinian response. RL On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:52 AM, Jeff meis...@xs4all.nl wrote: At 00:33 21/10/09 +0100, Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: This is an artifical 'problem' created by a misuse of langauge. More details here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/page_13_03.htm Rosa, I would love to hear your views, but I honestly don't have hours to spend reading your lengthy essay (which I'm sure you worked very hard on, but please understand!). Since you refer to a mere misuse of language, perhaps you could point us to the portion that explains the language issue involved. Or better, just send a relevant excerpt to the list. Or write a quick synopsis thereof. When you write very long posts or refer us to long tracts, then your ideas won't be read by most of us, whereas a single long paragraph which is to the point, such as David sent, will :-) - Jeff Rosa L On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:34 PM, David Picón Álvarez da...@miradoiro.com wrote: Nonsense, 'will' is an incoherent idea. The mind is a particular organisation of matter in motion. What does it mean to YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rosa.lichtenstein%40googlemail.com YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Materialism and the will. (Was: (no subject))
You can also find a brief summary of the background to this sort of claim, here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/self-t105849/index.html?p=1408653#post1408653 In fact, I summarise nearly all of my essays (in less than 5000 words) here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/essay_sixteen%20Index.htm So, I am just working out the implications of what Marx said: The philosophers have only to dissolve their language into the ordinary language, from which it is abstracted, in order to recognise it, as the distorted language of the actual world, and to realise that neither thoughts nor language in themselves form a realm of their own, that they are only manifestations of actual life. [Marx and Engels, (1970) The German Ideology, p.118.] RL On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:52 AM, Jeff meis...@xs4all.nl wrote: At 00:33 21/10/09 +0100, Rosa Lichtenstein wrote: This is an artifical 'problem' created by a misuse of langauge. More details here: http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/page_13_03.htm Rosa, I would love to hear your views, but I honestly don't have hours to spend reading your lengthy essay (which I'm sure you worked very hard on, but please understand!). Since you refer to a mere misuse of language, perhaps you could point us to the portion that explains the language issue involved. Or better, just send a relevant excerpt to the list. Or write a quick synopsis thereof. When you write very long posts or refer us to long tracts, then your ideas won't be read by most of us, whereas a single long paragraph which is to the point, such as David sent, will :-) - Jeff Rosa L On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:34 PM, David Picón Álvarez da...@miradoiro.com wrote: Nonsense, 'will' is an incoherent idea. The mind is a particular organisation of matter in motion. What does it mean to YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rosa.lichtenstein%40googlemail.com YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Materialism and the will. (Was: (no subject))
In spite of having read a good deal of Rosa's essay and links, I'm not sure I understand the relevant to the particular questions of materialism and the will. My fault, not hers, I lack the time to go over it in detail. --David. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
