Re: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo Operator extension
On 4 Dec 2007, at 07:13, John Panzer wrote: I've been asked how to handle this case (you have an area, or an inexact location, and want to encode it while providing a friendly human readable but possibly ambiguous short hand name for said place). Is there any existing practices to look at? Secondly, would this be a valid geo encoding 'abbreviation' ? abbr title='22.31119;+89.86145'the point under my finger right now/abbr The thing about abbreviations is, the expanded text replaces the shortened form, rather than supplementing it. So I'd guess your example wouldn't work unless the text 'the point under my finger right now' could be replaced by '22.31119;+89.86145' and still make sense when read in its larger context. span is probably a safer element to use for encoding lat/long positions. Jim Jim O'Donnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo Operator extension
On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:28 AM, John Panzer wrote: James O'Donnell wrote: On 4 Dec 2007, at 07:13, John Panzer wrote: I've been asked how to handle this case (you have an area, or an inexact location, and want to encode it while providing a friendly human readable but possibly ambiguous short hand name for said place). Is there any existing practices to look at? Secondly, would this be a valid geo encoding 'abbreviation' ? abbr title='22.31119;+89.86145'the point under my finger right now/abbr The thing about abbreviations is, the expanded text replaces the shortened form, rather than supplementing it. So I'd guess your example wouldn't work unless the text 'the point under my finger right now' could be replaced by '22.31119;+89.86145' and still make sense when read in its larger context. span is probably a safer element to use for encoding lat/long positions. Yes, in context this is really additional annotation, so abbr would be wrong. Thanks. But then is title appropriate if using a span? span title='22.31119;+89.86145'the point under my finger right now/span. This won't work with any microformats. The title attribute is only defined to work on the abbr element. The adr microformat also works well when you have a named location, but in some cases we won't. The specific use case is that the location is automatically generated, e.g., via GPS or other means, and the author can opt to have it automatically added in to the content they create. E.g., a photo and caption from a GPS enabled cellphone. Honestly I'd recommend that unless you can put the lat/long in a human-visible spot, just leave it off. -ryan ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo Operator extension
No immediate theories on your parsing problem I'm afraid, although I would flag this as an issue: On 3 Dec 2007, at 16:34, Premasagar Rose wrote: abbr class=geo point-20 title=+22.31119; +89.86145 Rayenda, Bangladesh /abbr There's no way that ‘+22.31119;+89.86145’ is an abbreviation of ‘Rayenda, Bangladesh’. Please, don't neglect the defined semantics of HTML in order to hack parsers. Ben ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo Operator extension
On Dec 3, 2007, at 11:18 AM, Ben Ward wrote: abbr class=geo point-20 title=+22.31119;+89.86145 Rayenda, Bangladesh /abbr There's no way that ‘+22.31119;+89.86145’ is an abbreviation of ‘Rayenda, Bangladesh’. Without commenting on the truthfulness of the statement, the above syntax says the opposite: that Rayenda, Bangladesh is an abbreviation of +22.31119;+89.86145. The title attribute is the long form, not the abbreviation. I don't know if this is just careless language or actual confusion, but this has come up multiple times and I think it's important we're all clear on what the markup asserts if we're going to have a discussion about the truthfulness of that assertion. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo Operator extension
Thanks for your feedback, Ben. Isn't it the other way around? The contents of the abbr element is an abbreviation for the full version given in the title attribute. That makes sense here: Rayenda, Bangladesh is a fuzzy approximation / abbreviation for a very specific geographical location +22.31119;+89.86145. I took this as inspiration: http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-brainstorming Prem. Ben Ward wrote: No immediate theories on your parsing problem I'm afraid, although I would flag this as an issue: On 3 Dec 2007, at 16:34, Premasagar Rose wrote: abbr class=geo point-20 title=+22.31119;+89.86145 Rayenda, Bangladesh /abbr There's no way that ‘+22.31119;+89.86145’ is an abbreviation of ‘Rayenda, Bangladesh’. Please, don't neglect the defined semantics of HTML in order to hack parsers. Ben ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://premasagar.com | http://dharmafly.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo Operator extension
On 3 Dec 2007, at 18:58, Scott Reynen wrote: On Dec 3, 2007, at 11:18 AM, Ben Ward wrote: abbr class=geo point-20 title=+22.31119; +89.86145 Rayenda, Bangladesh /abbr There's no way that ‘+22.31119;+89.86145’ is an abbreviation of ‘Rayenda, Bangladesh’. Without commenting on the truthfulness of the statement, the above syntax says the opposite: that Rayenda, Bangladesh is an abbreviation of +22.31119;+89.86145. The title attribute is the long form, not the abbreviation. I don't know if this is just careless language or actual confusion, but this has come up multiple times and I think it's important we're all clear on what the markup asserts if we're going to have a discussion about the truthfulness of that assertion. You are completely correct, not a misunderstanding on my part, I just wrote the wrong thing (I've been rather ill, my brain isn't joining all the dots in the right order at this point). I stand by point, and I think the examples on geo-brainstorming are dangerous. Premasagar, the ‘brainstorming’ pages are just that, and shouldn't be considered part of the specification itself. I'm sorry that our pages are misleading like that. The critical part of the HTML4 spec that causes ‘Rayenda, Bangladesh’ *not* to be an abbreviation of ‘22.31119;+89.86145’ is this: “The content of the ABBR and ACRONYM elements specifies the abbreviated expression itself, as it would normally appear in running text. The title attribute of these elements may be used to provide the full or expanded form of the expression.” “as it would normally appear in running text.” Whilst I appreciate the HTML4 spec can be a little vague sometimes, in this case it's pretty clear: ABBR is not for fuzzy approximations, it's for abbreviated expressions. I think we've got to be really delicate and careful about this. Microformats prides itself on building technologies on top of existing standards. The abbreviation pattern is a neat parsing trick, but you've gotta meet the requirements of the underlying technology. Regards, Ben For reference, the section from the HTML4 spec regarding ABBR and ACRONYM ABBR: Indicates an abbreviated form (e.g., WWW, HTTP, URI, Mass., etc.). ACRONYM: Indicates an acronym (e.g., WAC, radar, etc.). The ABBR and ACRONYM elements allow authors to clearly indicate occurrences of abbreviations and acronyms. Western languages make extensive use of acronyms such as GmbH, NATO, and F.B.I., as well as abbreviations like M., Inc., et al., etc.. Both Chinese and Japanese use analogous abbreviation mechanisms, wherein a long name is referred to subsequently with a subset of the Han characters from the original occurrence. Marking up these constructs provides useful information to user agents and tools such as spell checkers, speech synthesizers, translation systems and search-engine indexers. The content of the ABBR and ACRONYM elements specifies the abbreviated expression itself, as it would normally appear in running text. The title attribute of these elements may be used to provide the full or expanded form of the expression. Here are some sample uses of ABBR: P ABBR title=World Wide WebWWW/ABBR ABBR lang=fr title=Socieacute;teacute; Nationale des Chemins de Fer SNCF /ABBR ABBR lang=es title=Dontilde;aDontilde;a/ABBR ABBR title=Abbreviationabbr./ABBR Note that abbreviations and acronyms often have idiosyncratic pronunciations. For example, while IRS and BBC are typically pronounced letter by letter, NATO and UNESCO are pronounced phonetically. Still other abbreviated forms (e.g., URI and SQL) are spelled out by some people and pronounced as words by other people. When necessary, authors should use style sheets to specify the pronunciation of an abbreviated form. — http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#h-9.2.1 ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo Operator extension
On Dec 4, 2007 10:26 AM, Ben Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The critical part of the HTML4 spec that causes 'Rayenda, Bangladesh' *not* to be an abbreviation of '22.31119;+89.86145' is this: The content of the ABBR and ACRONYM elements specifies the abbreviated expression itself, as it would normally appear in running text. The title attribute of these elements may be used to provide the full or expanded form of the expression. as it would normally appear in running text. For the ABBR element to be use properly the title attribute would need to contain not a single point coordinate, but a representation of the Rayenda area itself. While this could be done by combining the techniques for image map poly coordinates with actual geo-coordinates, this needs to be more carefully and fully thought out. -- Paul Wilkins ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCalendar, geo Operator extension
Paul Wilkins wrote: On Dec 4, 2007 10:26 AM, Ben Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The critical part of the HTML4 spec that causes 'Rayenda, Bangladesh' *not* to be an abbreviation of '22.31119;+89.86145' is this: The content of the ABBR and ACRONYM elements specifies the abbreviated expression itself, as it would normally appear in running text. The title attribute of these elements may be used to provide the full or expanded form of the expression. as it would normally appear in running text. For the ABBR element to be use properly the title attribute would need to contain not a single point coordinate, but a representation of the Rayenda area itself. While this could be done by combining the techniques for image map poly coordinates with actual geo-coordinates, this needs to be more carefully and fully thought out. I've been asked how to handle this case (you have an area, or an inexact location, and want to encode it while providing a friendly human readable but possibly ambiguous short hand name for said place). Is there any existing practices to look at? Secondly, would this be a valid geo encoding 'abbreviation' ? abbr title='22.31119;+89.86145'the point under my finger right now/abbr John ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
