Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[Saku Ytti]

On (2011-04-29 18:34 -0400), david raistrick wrote:

> 3) as an a midstream network provider I have almost no motivation to
> support this.  Sure, my network usage would be reduced - but I (more
> or less simplified here, but) make my living on each bit of traffic
> I carry - if I offered a way for providers and consumers to reduce
> their traffic, that would reduce the amount they pay me.  Win for
> them, lose for me.

Aye. I'm always flabbergasted people complaining how other people should see
the light and start to support multicast so we could reduce global bandwidth
consumption. But multicast does not scale to global use, biggest problem is
that for a router multicast is like flow switching, every flow you need to
program in hardware. This means we'd need to regulate how and who can establish
global multicast flow, which would unavoidably be unfair to some people.

Second problem is security, random Internet user cannot change state in your
routers today (except edge router ARP, which already is exploitable security
problem), with multicast they can cause state to be changed in whole Internet.
You need to be able to limit how many groups port can join, how fast port can
join/leave per second, what groups port can join, same requirement is true for
MSDP peers. It gets quite complex, quite fast, and these filters should be
hardware based. We still regularly have security issues in BGP, it would be
extremely unlikely if multicast didn't have lot of crash-Internet potential,
due to end users ability to add/remove states from the core.

Multicast has been and continues today to be solution for
enterprise/application specific problems in closed domain and of course
academic interest. If we actually want to reduce global bandwidth consumption,
we need protocol which is stateless at least in in core.

-- 
  ++ytti

RE: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[Robert Bonomi]

> Subject: RE: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?
> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 15:15:42 -0700
> From: George Bonser 
>
> >
> > > Imagine: multicast internet radio! Awesome!
> >
> > That would, indeed, be awesome; when everyone in my office was 
> > listening to the royal wedding, there would be a *much* higher chance 
> > of them all being in sync.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -- jra
>
> Exactly.  If more people/networks took advantage of multicast, it would 
> greatly reduce the bandwidth requirements, particularly for live events.  
> If there were 50 people listening to a popular radio show or watching a 
> live TV event in your office, for example, there would be only one feed 
> crossing the wire into your office.  And only one feed crossing into your 
> provider's network.
>
> I have *no* idea why applications developers have not been more 
> interested in this, particularly with radio and television stations 
> providing live streams on the net.  It is absolutely a waste of resources 
> to have a separate stream for each listener of a live event.

There's a layer 9 (or is it 10?  -- required for legal reasons) 
answer for that.  Radio/television stations are required to pay 'performance'
royalties to the 'authors' and 'performers' of the works they transmit over 
the internet.  Those royalties are based on the _actual_number_ of persons
tuning in to each such work.  No 'averaging', no 'estimating', nothing
based on 'ratings', or other 'sampling techniques -- you have to count
the _actual_number_ of people tuned in.  It gets messy, but you have to
have 'auditable' records of when each person 'tuned in', and when they
'tuned out'.  One _has_ to be able to detect the latter condition under
all possible circumstances.  This means you must use a 'loss of signal'
methodology.  You can't trust the tuned-in listener to _actually_ stop
listening "just because" they said they would.  The people getting the
royalties will claim the tuned-in party lied, and they're due royalties
even after they said they're tuning out.  The people _paying_ the fees
won't accept having to pay for people who 'tuned out' in 'non-standard'
ways.   Ways like a program (or O/S, for that matter) crash, 'backhoe
fade, etc.

One party worries about people -not- tuning out when they said they are.
The other worries about people tuning out -without- saying they are.

The only to keep both sides happy is to use a methodology that is not
subject to either 'failure' mode.  This means a unique 'virtual circuit'
(aka data stream) to each user.

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[Jared Mauch]

On Apr 29, 2011, at 7:44 PM, Daniel Roesen wrote:

> 
> IP multicast was the only way for us to see what happened, live.
> Unicast failed miserably.
> 

I'll say that today with some providers offering streaming to customers iPad 
and other types of devices, the problem isn't the capacity to the home, nor is 
it really a concern for them.  It clearly doesn't matter if it's switched 
video, IPTV, or some RF.

All the problems that have made the news are about rights holders saying "this 
violates our contract" of some sort.

I'm sure it will be solved, and the internet will just become another transport 
medium, like RF over Coax or RF-OTA or IPTV/Uverse/FiOS or maybe soon just some 
standard RJ45/IEEE handoff with mac registration just like you have to register 
a digital STB with the head-end.

I suspect in the next 15 years the concept of broadcast TV handoff to the 
consumer will change again.  Hope everyone is ready for your television 
firmware and malware.

- Jared

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[Jared Mauch]

On Apr 29, 2011, at 4:40 PM, Tim Durack wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Joel Jaeggli  wrote:
>> On 4/29/11 10:12 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
>> 
>> It turns out that as a content provider you can unicast video delivery
>> without coordinating the admission of your content onto every edge
>> eyeball network on the planet. It's cheap enough that it makes money on
>> fairly straght-forward internet business models and it apparently scales
>> to meet the needs of justin beiber fans.
>> 
>> 
> 
> Imagine: multicast internet radio! Awesome!
> 
> I have a feeling streaming is going to stay unicast.
> 
> Multicast is a great technical solution in search of a good business problem.

I think this is sadly the truth.  There are some problems that can be solved by 
multicast, but I've seen the number of customer requests for v4 multicast go by 
the wayside over the years.  The only people that are generally interested are 
the conference venues for technical things, e.g.: RIPE, ARIN/NANOG, APRICOT, 
etc.  

Plus, conferences like NANOG have beamed the video back to some other site for 
fanout as well, for both unicast and multicast.

The problems at Layer7 and below are solvable with market forces.  They're all 
8/9 issues, about the content providers wanting to be 
paid-per-subscriber/viewer.  They don't want to know how few people are 
actually tuned in at that moment in some cases.  I'm sure they want to be paid 
some fraction of that cost that goes to your TV Transport conduit provider.

- Jared

(who buys and downloads shows, and pays nothing for others as they come OTA 
"free")

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Jared Mauch]

On Apr 29, 2011, at 3:44 PM, John Levine wrote:

>> Delivering multicast to end users is fundamentally not hard. The
>> biggest issue seems to be with residential CPE (pretty much the same
>> problem as IPv6, really).
> 
> Well, more than that, since I don't really want my DSL pipe saturated
> with TV that I'm not watching, you need some way for the CPE to tell
> the ISP "send me stream N"

There are CPEs that do this, but some don't do it on a public IP network.

Additionally, considering the state of the home CPE market and how horrible it 
is, I doubt it will get better anytime soon.  You have to look no further than 
the copious numbers of "IPv6 Ready" devices on the shelves in stores today.  
Oh, and the fact that the NAT on the v4 side breaks multicast.

> I suppose with some sort of spanning three thing it'd even be posssible
> to do that at multuple levels, so the streams are only fed to people
> who have clients for it.

This is what IGMP+PIM already do, sometimes with layer-2 support from switches, 
sometimes not, all depends on your topology.

- Jared

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[Martin Millnert]

Daniel,

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:44 PM, Daniel Roesen  wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 05:51:25PM -0400, Jay Ashworth wrote:
>> > Imagine: multicast internet radio! Awesome!
>>
>> That would, indeed, be awesome; when everyone in my office was listening to
>> the royal wedding, there would be a *much* higher chance of them all being
>> in sync.
>
> That reminds me of 9/11. When the tragic event unfolded, we sat in the
> office. News made the rounds verbally, and people started looking for
> streaming services at their personal desks (no TVs around). People
> pretty quickly gave up trying to find streams and news portals which were
> actually working fine and the crowd gathering behind me watching over my
> shoulder became bigger and bigger.
>
> Why? Because I was in the fortunate position of being able to watch an
> Mbone multicast stream of some news TV broadcaster... cannot remember
> wether it was CNN or BBC or someone else entirely. Back then, a collegue
> was playing around with IP multicast and my desktop machine had connectivity
> to his Mbone-connected playground. :)
>
> IP multicast was the only way for us to see what happened, live.
> Unicast failed miserably.

+10

I've been meaning to write something similar. Multicast infrastructure
in place absolutely and certainly has a role to play in
"humanity-wide" events.
Also, having a 'free' distribution channel for those moving images
carrying such licensing that it does not matter how many eyeballs see
them, could be valuable as well.

I made sure to get this capability in the network I worked on last.

Cheers,
Martin

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[Daniel Roesen]

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 05:51:25PM -0400, Jay Ashworth wrote:
> > Imagine: multicast internet radio! Awesome!
> 
> That would, indeed, be awesome; when everyone in my office was listening to 
> the royal wedding, there would be a *much* higher chance of them all being
> in sync.

That reminds me of 9/11. When the tragic event unfolded, we sat in the
office. News made the rounds verbally, and people started looking for
streaming services at their personal desks (no TVs around). People
pretty quickly gave up trying to find streams and news portals which were
actually working fine and the crowd gathering behind me watching over my
shoulder became bigger and bigger.

Why? Because I was in the fortunate position of being able to watch an
Mbone multicast stream of some news TV broadcaster... cannot remember
wether it was CNN or BBC or someone else entirely. Back then, a collegue
was playing around with IP multicast and my desktop machine had connectivity
to his Mbone-connected playground. :)

IP multicast was the only way for us to see what happened, live.
Unicast failed miserably.

Best regards,
Daniel

-- 
CLUE-RIPE -- Jabber: d...@cluenet.de -- dr@IRCnet -- PGP: 0xA85C8AA0

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[david raistrick]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2011, Jay Ashworth wrote:


I'd expect it to be fairly common at colleges; possibly in companies,


ok, colleges I can buy.


Is it still this fragile in 2011?


It was in 2009, anyway.


And you haven't written the O'Reilly book yet... why?  :-)


Because it's not an experience I care to repeat. ;-)

Today, I make video games.  MUCH more fun!  (who knew, content CAN be fun)


--
david raistrickhttp://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
dr...@icantclick.org http://www.expita.com/nomime.html

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[Jay Ashworth]

 Original Message -
> From: "david raistrick" 

> 1) As a consumer network (enterprise, home) - that case is VERY rare.
> 50 people consuming it at your house? Or at the office consuming the same
> feed? (even at a 10k employee company, the rate of that is fairly low,
> particularly on the same leg of the network - I'd love to see some
> statistics that prove me wrong). The amount of work that goes into
> supporting and maintaining this is much higher than the return I'd get
> from it. Even assuming the upstreams supported it.

I'd expect it to be fairly common at colleges; possibly in companies,
depending on the content being watched: live news events are the most
common example -- igmp aware viewer clients (which would bias towaards
this by showing the already running feeds) would also help.

> 2) as a content provider, there's a lot of extra work involved towards
> maintain this with my upstreams, and every mid-stream between me at the
> consumer networks. I require specialists in multicast (comparatively speaking
> unicast specialists are a dime a dozen) and I have to fight a lot of
> politics with the upstreams, and I -still- have to support the unicast
> models so the folks who can't consume multicast can see my content.

Is it still this fragile in 2011?

> 3) as an a midstream network provider I have almost no motivation to
> support this. Sure, my network usage would be reduced - but I (more or
> less simplified here, but) make my living on each bit of traffic I carry -
> if I offered a way for providers and consumers to reduce their traffic,
> that would reduce the amount they pay me. Win for them, lose for me.

americafree.tv has a list, compiled (I think) by Marhsall Eubanks, that
lists ISPs and backbones with a formal positive position on this.

Be fun to put you two in a room together.  :-)

> the fact of the matter is that until multicast or it's like -doesn't-
> require massive end-to-end support (and frequently configuration to
> support each stream), there won't be heavy use of it. When I can turn
> up a multicast stream as easily as I can turn up a unicast stream,
> there is -still- a absolute lack of client-side software to recieve and
> playback the streams, and very limited support for broadcasting the streams.

Clearly, there's not an *absolute* lack, or people wouldn't be using it
for anything anywhere ever, which they demonstrably are.

I should think that given Flowplayer, there's a pretty good platform for
implementing such a player in the environment in which program providers
would want to use it... though I'm not intimately familiar with its code.

> ...david (one time multicast specialist supporting a 200,000 seat 4
> channel multicast infrastructure, so I'm fully aware of what magic is
> really involved in maintaining it across divergent networks that -WE-
> owned (or could exercise control of). before that streaming 40Gb/s
> (~200 channels of unicast video for general consumers + on demand streams)

And you haven't written the O'Reilly book yet... why?  :-)

Thanks for the input, David.

Cheers,
-- jra

RE: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[david raistrick]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2011, George Bonser wrote:

Exactly.  If more people/networks took advantage of multicast, it would 
greatly reduce the bandwidth requirements, particularly for live events. 
If there were 50 people listening to a popular radio show or watching a


1) As a consumer network (enterprise, home) - that case is VERY rare.  50 
people consuming it at your house?  Or at the office consuming the same 
feed?  (even at a 10k employee company, the rate of that is fairly low, 
particularly on the same leg of the network - I'd love to see some 
statistics that prove me wrong).   The amount of work that goes into 
supporting and maintaining this is much higher than the return I'd get 
from it.  Even assuming the upstreams supported it.


2) as a content provider, there's a lot of extra work involved to maintain 
this with my upstreams, and every mid-stream between me at the consumer 
networks.  I require specialists in multicast (comparatively speaking 
unicast specialists are a dime a dozen) and I have to fight a lot of 
politics with the upstreams, and I -still- have to support the unicast 
models so the folks who can't consume multicast can see my content.


3) as an a midstream network provider I have almost no motivation to 
support this.  Sure, my network usage would be reduced - but I (more or 
less simplified here, but) make my living on each bit of traffic I carry - 
if I offered a way for providers and consumers to reduce their traffic, 
that would reduce the amount they pay me.  Win for them, lose for me.




the fact of the matter is that until multicast or it's like -doesn't- 
require massive end-to-end support (and frequently configuration to 
support each stream), there won't be heavy use of it.When I can turn 
up a multicast stream as easily as I can turn up a unicast stream, there 
is -still- a absolute lack of client-side software to recieve and playback 
the streams, and very limited support for broadcasting the streams.




...david (one time multicast specialist supporting a 200,000 seat 4 
channel multicast infrastructure, so I'm fully aware of what magic is 
really involved in maintaining it across divergent networks that -WE- 
owned (or could exercise control of).  before that streaming 40Gb/s (~200 
channels of unicast video for general consumers + on demand streams)



--
david raistrickhttp://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
dr...@icantclick.org http://www.expita.com/nomime.html

RoadRunner Tampa Bay - IP Multicast enabled?

[Jay Ashworth]

Is it on the Mbone?

Replies off-list please, if you are certain either way.

Cheers,
-- jra

RE: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[George Bonser]

> 
> > Imagine: multicast internet radio! Awesome!
> 
> That would, indeed, be awesome; when everyone in my office was
> listening to
> the royal wedding, there would be a *much* higher chance of them all
> being
> in sync.
> 
> Cheers,
> -- jra

Exactly.  If more people/networks took advantage of multicast, it would greatly 
reduce the bandwidth requirements, particularly for live events.  If there were 
50 people listening to a popular radio show or watching a live TV event in your 
office, for example, there would be only one feed crossing the wire into your 
office.  And only one feed crossing into your provider's network.

I have *no* idea why applications developers have not been more interested in 
this, particularly with radio and television stations providing live streams on 
the net.  It is absolutely a waste of resources to have a separate stream for 
each listener of a live event.

The mobile networks are more up to speed in this regard.  Verizon Vcast is 
probably the largest implementation that I know of.

RE: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[George Bonser]

> Great.  So, as I asked earlier (as yet unanswered):
> 
> I have in my hand an NTSC video cable and an XLR with audio.  How do I
> hook
> that to the mbone?  :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> -- jra

Might want to ask the folks at Silicon Valley Linux Users group, they used to 
broadcast their meetings on the mbone, not sure if they do anymore.

Maybe use google a little:

http://sitka.triumf.ca/pub/mbone/uclambone-faq.html

You should be able to find enough to get you started.

The Cidr Report

[cidr-report]

This report has been generated at Fri Apr 29 21:12:19 2011 AEST.
The report analyses the BGP Routing Table of AS2.0 router
and generates a report on aggregation potential within the table.

Check http://www.cidr-report.org for a current version of this report.

Recent Table History
Date  PrefixesCIDR Agg
22-04-1135  210678
23-04-11359100  210025
24-04-11359043  210099
25-04-11359109  210322
26-04-11359153  210508
27-04-11359331  210252
28-04-11359218  210513
29-04-11359398  210638


AS Summary
 37536  Number of ASes in routing system
 15812  Number of ASes announcing only one prefix
  3646  Largest number of prefixes announced by an AS
AS6389 : BELLSOUTH-NET-BLK - BellSouth.net Inc.
  110422528  Largest address span announced by an AS (/32s)
AS4134 : CHINANET-BACKBONE No.31,Jin-rong Street


Aggregation Summary
The algorithm used in this report proposes aggregation only
when there is a precise match using the AS path, so as 
to preserve traffic transit policies. Aggregation is also
proposed across non-advertised address space ('holes').

 --- 29Apr11 ---
ASnumNetsNow NetsAggr  NetGain   % Gain   Description

Table 359485   210619   14886641.4%   All ASes

AS6389  3646  261 338592.8%   BELLSOUTH-NET-BLK -
   BellSouth.net Inc.
AS4323  2622  401 222184.7%   TWTC - tw telecom holdings,
   inc.
AS4766  2434  915 151962.4%   KIXS-AS-KR Korea Telecom
AS6478  1658  175 148389.4%   ATT-INTERNET3 - AT&T Services,
   Inc.
AS10620 1448  231 121784.0%   Telmex Colombia S.A.
AS22773 1300   93 120792.8%   ASN-CXA-ALL-CCI-22773-RDC -
   Cox Communications Inc.
AS19262 1495  298 119780.1%   VZGNI-TRANSIT - Verizon Online
   LLC
AS18566 1790  663 112763.0%   COVAD - Covad Communications
   Co.
AS4755  1459  376 108374.2%   TATACOMM-AS TATA
   Communications formerly VSNL
   is Leading ISP
AS7552  1215  142 107388.3%   VIETEL-AS-AP Vietel
   Corporation
AS1785  1794  764 103057.4%   AS-PAETEC-NET - PaeTec
   Communications, Inc.
AS28573 1289  416  87367.7%   NET Servicos de Comunicao S.A.
AS24560 1158  339  81970.7%   AIRTELBROADBAND-AS-AP Bharti
   Airtel Ltd., Telemedia
   Services
AS7545  1561  764  79751.1%   TPG-INTERNET-AP TPG Internet
   Pty Ltd
AS18101  935  145  79084.5%   RELIANCE-COMMUNICATIONS-IN
   Reliance Communications
   Ltd.DAKC MUMBAI
AS8151  1248  524  72458.0%   Uninet S.A. de C.V.
AS4808  1038  333  70567.9%   CHINA169-BJ CNCGROUP IP
   network China169 Beijing
   Province Network
AS3356  1128  462  66659.0%   LEVEL3 Level 3 Communications
AS7303   927  264  66371.5%   Telecom Argentina S.A.
AS17488  944  312  63266.9%   HATHWAY-NET-AP Hathway IP Over
   Cable Internet
AS11492 1261  636  62549.6%   CABLEONE - CABLE ONE, INC.
AS17676  660   70  59089.4%   GIGAINFRA Softbank BB Corp.
AS855635   57  57891.0%   CANET-ASN-4 - Bell Aliant
   Regional Communications, Inc.
AS6503   853  277  57667.5%   Axtel, S.A.B. de C.V.
AS14420  665  104  56184.4%   CORPORACION NACIONAL DE
   TELECOMUNICACIONES - CNT EP
AS3549   948  400  54857.8%   GBLX Global Crossing Ltd.
AS22047  564   30  53494.7%   VTR BANDA ANCHA S.A.
AS4780   718  188  53073.8%   SEEDNET Digital United Inc.
AS22561  863  341  52260.5%   DIGITAL-TELEPORT - Digital
   Teleport Inc.
AS17974 1826 1329  49727.2%   TELKOMNET-AS2-AP PT
   Telekomunikasi Indonesia

Total  40082113102877271.8%   Top 30

BGP Update Report

[cidr-report]

BGP Update Report
Interval: 21-Apr-11 -to- 28-Apr-11 (7 days)
Observation Point: BGP Peering with AS131072

TOP 20 Unstable Origin AS
Rank ASNUpds %  Upds/PfxAS-Name
 1 - AS19743   32039  1.6%4577.0 -- 
 2 - AS982921443  1.1%  21.3 -- BSNL-NIB National Internet 
Backbone
 3 - AS17974   18475  0.9%  10.1 -- TELKOMNET-AS2-AP PT 
Telekomunikasi Indonesia
 4 - AS27738   17261  0.9%  50.9 -- Ecuadortelecom S.A.
 5 - AS32528   17148  0.9%2143.5 -- ABBOTT Abbot Labs
 6 - AS11492   16263  0.8%  12.8 -- CABLEONE - CABLE ONE, INC.
 7 - AS763315307  0.8%  75.4 -- SOFTNET-AS-AP Software 
Technology Parks of India - Bangalore
 8 - AS44609   12851  0.7%4283.7 -- FNA Fars News Agency Cultural 
Arts Institute
 9 - AS11992   12773  0.7%  28.8 -- CENTENNIAL-PR - Centennial de 
Puerto Rico
10 - AS638912491  0.6%   3.4 -- BELLSOUTH-NET-BLK - 
BellSouth.net Inc.
11 - AS14420   12464  0.6%  18.7 -- CORPORACION NACIONAL DE 
TELECOMUNICACIONES - CNT EP
12 - AS949812311  0.6%  15.3 -- BBIL-AP BHARTI Airtel Ltd.
13 - AS755212111  0.6%   9.8 -- VIETEL-AS-AP Vietel Corporation
14 - AS35931   12078  0.6%2013.0 -- ARCHIPELAGO - ARCHIPELAGO 
HOLDINGS INC
15 - AS45595   10417  0.5%  28.8 -- PKTELECOM-AS-PK Pakistan 
Telecom Company Limited
16 - AS754510168  0.5%  11.6 -- TPG-INTERNET-AP TPG Internet 
Pty Ltd
17 - AS4323 9856  0.5%   3.7 -- TWTC - tw telecom holdings, inc.
18 - AS285739549  0.5%   7.3 -- NET Servicos de Comunicao S.A.
19 - AS5800 9478  0.5%  50.7 -- DNIC-ASBLK-05800-06055 - DoD 
Network Information Center
20 - AS245609088  0.5%   7.8 -- AIRTELBROADBAND-AS-AP Bharti 
Airtel Ltd., Telemedia Services


TOP 20 Unstable Origin AS (Updates per announced prefix)
Rank ASNUpds %  Upds/PfxAS-Name
 1 - AS19743   32039  1.6%4577.0 -- 
 2 - AS44609   12851  0.7%4283.7 -- FNA Fars News Agency Cultural 
Arts Institute
 3 - AS32528   17148  0.9%2143.5 -- ABBOTT Abbot Labs
 4 - AS35931   12078  0.6%2013.0 -- ARCHIPELAGO - ARCHIPELAGO 
HOLDINGS INC
 5 - AS496001355  0.1%1355.0 -- LASEDA La Seda de Barcelona, S.A
 6 - AS9270 2989  0.1% 597.8 -- APAN-KR-AS Asia Pacific 
Advanced Network Korea(APAN-KR) Consortium
 7 - AS23364 597  0.0% 597.0 -- SECOTOOLS-US - Seco Tools Inc.
 8 - AS127322169  0.1% 542.2 -- GUTCON-NET GutCon GmbH
 9 - AS3 385  0.0% 735.0 -- NETCKRACKER-AS NETCKRACKER Ltd
10 - AS187043755  0.2% 375.5 -- T-SYSTEM - T-SYSTEMS INC.
11 - AS5966  375  0.0% 375.0 -- DNIC-ASBLK-05800-06055 - DoD 
Network Information Center
12 - AS23310 697  0.0% 348.5 -- TASTYLIME - TASTY LIME
13 - AS48349 306  0.0% 306.0 -- SICE-IT-AS JSC "Siberian 
Interbank Currency Exchange - Information Technologies"
14 - AS24801 902  0.1% 300.7 -- monarch
15 - AS722  2675  0.1% 297.2 -- DNIC-ASBLK-00721-00726 - DoD 
Network Information Center
16 - AS9476  294  0.0% 294.0 -- INTRAPOWER-AS-AP IntraPower 
Pty. Ltd.
17 - AS38757 512  0.0% 256.0 -- ICONPLN-ID-AP PT. Indonesia 
Comnets Plus
18 - AS50324 250  0.0% 250.0 -- ORCO-GSG GSG Asset GmbH & Co. 
Verwaltungs KG
19 - AS56453 245  0.0% 245.0 -- SMA Panajotis Tolatzis trading 
as "Secure Media Associates"
20 - AS333622929  0.1% 244.1 -- WIKTEL-NET - Wikstrom Telephone 
Company, Incorporated


TOP 20 Unstable Prefixes
Rank Prefix Upds % Origin AS -- AS Name
 1 - 130.36.35.0/24 8563  0.4%   AS32528 -- ABBOTT Abbot Labs
 2 - 130.36.34.0/24 8560  0.4%   AS32528 -- ABBOTT Abbot Labs
 3 - 202.92.235.0/248006  0.3%   AS9498  -- BBIL-AP BHARTI Airtel Ltd.
 4 - 63.211.68.0/22 7021  0.3%   AS35931 -- ARCHIPELAGO - ARCHIPELAGO 
HOLDINGS INC
 5 - 203.190.151.0/24   6980  0.3%   AS7633  -- SOFTNET-AS-AP Software 
Technology Parks of India - Bangalore
 6 - 203.129.236.0/24   6478  0.3%   AS7633  -- SOFTNET-AS-AP Software 
Technology Parks of India - Bangalore
 7 - 178.22.79.0/24 6431  0.3%   AS44609 -- FNA Fars News Agency Cultural 
Arts Institute
 8 - 178.22.72.0/21 6403  0.3%   AS44609 -- FNA Fars News Agency Cultural 
Arts Institute
 9 - 65.122.196.0/246331  0.3%   AS19743 -- 
10 - 221.121.96.0/196041  0.3%   AS7491  -- PI-PH-AS-AP PI-PHILIPINES
11 - 65.162.204.0/245143  0.2%   AS19743 -- 
12 - 65.163.182.0/245143  0.2%   AS19743 -- 
13 - 66.238.91.0/24 5142  0.2%   AS19743 -- 
14 - 66.89.98.0/24  5141  0.2%   AS19743 -- 
15 - 72.164.144.0/245137  0.2%   AS19743 -- 
16 - 208.54.82.0/24 4891  0.2%   AS701   -- UUNET - MCI Communicat

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[Jay Ashworth]

 Original Message -
> From: "Tim Durack" 

> Imagine: multicast internet radio! Awesome!

That would, indeed, be awesome; when everyone in my office was listening to 
the royal wedding, there would be a *much* higher chance of them all being
in sync.

Cheers,
-- jra

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[Jay Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "Simon Lockhart" 
> > I have in my hand an NTSC video cable and an XLR with audio. How do
> > I hook that to the mbone? :-)
> 
> Simple.
> 
> Go get yourself an encoder - VBrick, Envivio, Tandberg, etc, etc - there's
> plenty out there, take your pick. That'll take video + audio as an input, and
> output the encoded video (typically MPEG-2 or H.264 in an MPEG-2 transport
> stream) as multicast.
> 
> Hook that into your favourite ISP that supports global multicast
> (several of the tier-1's do), and you're all done.

Really.  It's that trivial?  Ok.  Cool.  Anyone know if Road Runner's one of 
those?  And how do viewers watch it?

Cheers,
-- jra

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Jay Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "Octavio Alvarez" 

> So maybe I'm oversimplifying, but I fail to see a problem, only an
> artificial one created for the sake of it. Other than the potencial
> CPU load of the routing protocol, I even fail to see the commercial value
> of not providing multicast.

Yup: that's what the Content Industry does: invents problems just
for the sake of it.

Cheers,
-- jra

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Octavio Alvarez]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 10:48:51 -0700, Jay Ashworth  wrote:


- Original Message -

From: "Rubens Kuhl" 


And that's the snap answer, yes.  But the *load*, while admittedly
lessened over unicast, falls *mostly* to the carriers, who cannot anymore
bill for it, either to end users, providers, *or* as transit.

Will they not complain about having their equipment utilization go up
with no recompense -- for something that is only of benefit to commercial
customers of some other entity?


Why would they bill someone for a service they are already providing?

So the first user in a router tunes to a multicast stream. Consumption
for the ISP and all the routers in the chain to the source: same as if
it were a unicast stream. Then a second user tunes to a multicast
stream. Cost for the ISP: zero.

So 5000 users connect each to a different multicast source. It is the
same as if they all used unicast. The utilization can never be
worse than a unicast-only network.

So maybe I'm oversimplifying, but I fail to see a problem, only an
artificial one created for the sake of it. Other than the potencial CPU
load of the routing protocol, I even fail to see the commercial value of
not providing multicast.

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[Simon Lockhart]

On Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 05:40:59PM -0400, Jay Ashworth wrote:
> Great.  So, as I asked earlier (as yet unanswered):
> 
> I have in my hand an NTSC video cable and an XLR with audio.  How do I hook
> that to the mbone?  :-)

Simple. 

Go get yourself an encoder - VBrick, Envivio, Tandberg, etc, etc - there's
plenty out there, take your pick. That'll take video + audio as an input, and
output the encoded video (typically MPEG-2 or H.264 in an MPEG-2 transport
stream) as multicast.

Hook that into your favourite ISP that supports global multicast (several of
the tier-1's do), and you're all done. 

Simon

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[Jay Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "George Bonser" 

> Multicast is perfect for a live event. Unicast is best for "on demand"
> viewing of something.
> 
> An event such as today's wedding, a conference viewed in real-time, a
> sports event, etc. is well-suited for multicast.

Great.  So, as I asked earlier (as yet unanswered):

I have in my hand an NTSC video cable and an XLR with audio.  How do I hook
that to the mbone?  :-)

Cheers,
-- jra

RE: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[George Bonser]

> Imagine: multicast internet radio! Awesome!
> 
> I have a feeling streaming is going to stay unicast.
> 
> Multicast is a great technical solution in search of a good business
> problem.
> 
> --
> Tim:>

Multicast is perfect for a live event.  Unicast is best for "on demand"
viewing of something.

An event such as today's wedding, a conference viewed in real-time, a
sports event, etc. is well-suited for multicast.

RE: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[George Bonser]

> 
> Well, more than that, since I don't really want my DSL pipe saturated
> with TV that I'm not watching, you need some way for the CPE to tell
> the ISP "send me stream N"

That is what igmp is for.  Only send what I specifically request.

RE: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[George Bonser]

> 
> You've conflated my two points.  That would tell the *carriers* who's
> watching
> what, but they probably don't care.  I was talking about *the
> providers*
> knowing (think DRM and "3096 viewers online").
> 
> Cheers,
> -- jra

It would be done the same way it is done currently with cable TV.  Who tells 
CBS how many people are watching?  The cable provider knows (or has the 
capability of knowing with modern digital cable) exactly what channel each 
cable box is watching at any time.

How does a provider of broadcast television know who is watching?  They don't, 
unless the subscriber has a ratings service device at their prem.

But if "broadcast" events over the internet are treated the same as "broadcast" 
events over RF,  who cares?

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[Tim Durack]

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Joel Jaeggli  wrote:
> On 4/29/11 10:12 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
>
> It turns out that as a content provider you can unicast video delivery
> without coordinating the admission of your content onto every edge
> eyeball network on the planet. It's cheap enough that it makes money on
> fairly straght-forward internet business models and it apparently scales
> to meet the needs of justin beiber fans.
>
>

Imagine: multicast internet radio! Awesome!

I have a feeling streaming is going to stay unicast.

Multicast is a great technical solution in search of a good business problem.

-- 
Tim:>

Fwd: [arin-ppml] Statistics regarding NRPM 8.3 Transfers to date

[John Curran]

Transfers of IPv4 address space beginning to heat up.
FYI,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

Begin forwarded message:

From: John Curran mailto:jcur...@arin.net>>
Date: April 29, 2011 1:08:49 PM EDT
To: Public Policy Mailing List mailto:p...@arin.net>>
Subject: [arin-ppml] Statistics regarding NRPM 8.3 Transfers to date

To date, there have been 10 completed specified transfers  under NRPM 8.3:

Distribution of IPv4 Resources transferred:

   1  /17
   3  /20s
   1  /21
   1  /23
49  /24s

All resources were received under an RSA. None under LRSA.
Microsoft transaction not counted in the above (pending close)

FYI,
/John
___
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You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List 
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Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Robert Bonomi]

> From nanog-bounces+bonomi=mail.r-bonomi@nanog.org  Fri Apr 29 12:24:21 
> 2011
> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 14:23:23 -0300
> Subject: Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)
> From: Rubens Kuhl 
> To: Nanog 
>
> >> Isn't the real problem with global multicast: "How do we ultimately
> >> bill the broadcaster for all that traffic amplification that happened
> >> *inside* every other AS?" It seems like you'd have to do per-packet
> >> accounting at every router, and coordinate billing/reporting amongst
> >> all providers that saw those packets.
>
> Broadcast encrypted streams. Unicast the key distribution, allowing
> interested parties to count, bill, block, allow, litigate, agree...
>
>
> Rubens
>

[NANOG-announce] NANOG 52 agenda available!

[David Meyer]

Please see

http://nanog.org/meetings/nanog52/agenda.php

Look forward to seeing you in Denver.

Dave

(for the NANOG PC)

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Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[John Levine]

>Delivering multicast to end users is fundamentally not hard. The
>biggest issue seems to be with residential CPE (pretty much the same
>problem as IPv6, really).

Well, more than that, since I don't really want my DSL pipe saturated
with TV that I'm not watching, you need some way for the CPE to tell
the ISP "send me stream N"

I suppose with some sort of spanning three thing it'd even be posssible
to do that at multuple levels, so the streams are only fed to people
who have clients for it.

R's,
John

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Jay Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "George Bonser" 

> > Internet engineers are prone to try to solve this problem in favor of
> > the viewer, and their networks -- with their networks winning in case
> > of a push.
> 
> Should be easy enough on your subscriber ports to use igmp to see who
> has subscribed to which groups, shouldn't it? Just log igmp changes
> and there's your accounting.

You've conflated my two points.  That would tell the *carriers* who's watching
what, but they probably don't care.  I was talking about *the providers* 
knowing (think DRM and "3096 viewers online").

Cheers,
-- jra

Amazon diagnosis

[Joly MacFie]

*http://aws.amazon.com/message/65648/*

___
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RE: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[George Bonser]

> From: Jay Ashworth 
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 10:13 AM
> To: NANOG
> Subject: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal
> Wedding...)
> 
> - Original Message -
> > From: "Ryan Malayter" 

> 
> > On Apr 28, 11:14 pm, Jay Ashworth wrote:
> > > > (cough)multicast(cough)
> > >
> > > But... but... how do we count the viewers, then?
> >
> > Isn't the real problem with global multicast: "How do we ultimately
> > bill the broadcaster for all that traffic amplification that happened
> > *inside* every other AS?" It seems like you'd have to do per-packet
> > accounting at every router, and coordinate billing/reporting amongst
> > all providers that saw those packets.
> 
> See, now, I expected to hear that objection.
> 
> Internet engineers are prone to try to solve this problem in favor of
> the viewer, and their networks -- with their networks winning in case
> of a push.

Should be easy enough on your subscriber ports to use igmp to see who has 
subscribed to which groups, shouldn't it?  Just log igmp changes and there's 
your accounting.  

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Silas Moeckel]

 On 4/29/2011 2:47 PM, Dan White wrote:

On 29/04/11 14:04 -0400, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:

On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 13:48:51 EDT, Jay Ashworth said:
What's the break-even point, the number of streams being sent at once 
where

multicasting it starts taking less resources than N unicast streams?


Video distribution is bound to continue to go in the direction of
Netflix/Youtube where ISPs are going to be highly motivated to find 
cheaper

ways to provide internet content to their end users. And directly peered,
multicast agreements between CDNs and ISPs are going to be a real 
quick way

to chop operational costs. Even if that doesn't apply to Netflix content
today, it's bound to matter for content that consumers are going to 
want to

consume in real time (sporting events).

From the perspective of an ISP operating in a small market, we are 
seeing a

big shift in usage toward Netflix and netflix-like services that is
necessarily going to change the model of how we provide internet 
services.
We have limited access to CDN or Content-Producer peering agreements 
(that

would help to save costs) and, even if we did, we're in no position to
demand ingress cash flow in those agreements (not enough eyeballs!). 
Since
our users are the ones with the business arrangements with Netflix, 
and since

their demand is shifting in that direction, I'd imagine we'd jump at a
chance for private multicast agreements, even if demand didn't quite
warrant it at this point.

Is it all just stalling tactics until IPv6 is everywhere, or am I 
incorrect that multicast is baked into it rather than tacked on.  Unlike 
the current state of multicast islands were looking at global reach to 
all IPv6 end points.  Even if providers try and stem the flow with AUP's 
banning sourcing of multicast how many major apps poping up with "you 
have a valid IPv6 address but multicast is not functioning please 
contact your ISP as your internet is broken, running at reduced 
capacity/quality" flooding help desks until ISP's cave in?  The only 
loosers are the ones that were getting paid for transit by the sender, 
the eyeball networks could well see this as a reduction of backbone 
utilization


Silas

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Simon Lockhart]

On Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 03:03:47PM -0400, Jay Ashworth wrote:
> The real problem I see myself is that *the Mbone has to be pervasive* (or
> mostly so) for this to be a worthwhile investment for providers.

What is missing is an adaptive client (be it flash, or HTML5) which will
transparently use multicast if it's available, and otherwise fall back to
unicast.

I've discussed this many times with IPTV technology providers. Many have agreed
that it's a superb solution, but none have delivered.

Delivering multicast to end users is fundamentally not hard. The biggest issue
seems to be with residential CPE (pretty much the same problem as IPv6,
really).

Simon

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?

[Joel Jaeggli]

On 4/29/11 10:12 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:
> - Original Message -
>> From: "Ryan Malayter" 
> 
>> On Apr 28, 11:14 pm, Jay Ashworth  wrote:
 (cough)multicast(cough)
>>>
>>> But... but... how do we count the viewers, then?
>>
>> Isn't the real problem with global multicast: "How do we ultimately
>> bill the broadcaster for all that traffic amplification that happened
>> *inside* every other AS?" It seems like you'd have to do per-packet
>> accounting at every router, and coordinate billing/reporting amongst
>> all providers that saw those packets.
> 
> See, now, I expected to hear that objection.
> 
> Internet engineers are prone to try to solve this problem in favor of
> the viewer, and their networks -- with their networks winning in case
> of a push.
> 
> *Program providers*, OTOH, have a completely different set of "optimal"
> parameters -- many of which are directly at odds with that approach, and
> most of which are completely ignored by Internet engineering types when 
> working on this stuff.
> 
> And OTGH, even if, say, a local TV station wanted to let people do this
> sort of thing, *the people they get their programs from* -- both at the
> Network and the "provider to Network" level -- will expect to have their
> own say in the matter.
> 
> *Certainly* there should be a Multicast Cloud, and an easy way for 
> program providers to dump things into it.  But, as you say, who's going
> to pay for it is an issue, and how one enforces that is another even
> more contentious one.
> 
> Layer 9 is a *bitch*, isn't it?
> 
> So: if I *wanted* to put my video in the multicast cloud... how would 
> I do it?  I do, after all, now work for a TV network which sells things;
> this is not an idle question for me: the more people who can see me,
> the better. 


It turns out that as a content provider you can unicast video delivery
without coordinating the admission of your content onto every edge
eyeball network on the planet. It's cheap enough that it makes money on
fairly straght-forward internet business models and it apparently scales
to meet the needs of justin beiber fans.

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Jay Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "Simon Lockhart" 

> On Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 01:48:51PM -0400, Jay Ashworth wrote:
> > Will they not complain about having their equipment utilization go up
> > with no recompense -- for something that is only of benefit to
> > commercial customers of some other entity?
> 
> Sorry, but are your eyeballs not already paying you for that bandwidth
> that they are consuming. Multicast merely optimises that across your
> network.
> 
> You have 200,000 eyeballs all watching the royal wedding on youtube,
> at 2Mbps per stream.
> 
> or
> 
> You have 200,000 eyeballs all watching the royal wedding on multicast,
> with no more than one copy of 2Mbps going over each of your backbone links.
> 
> I know which one I'd prefer.

He's the devil, I'm just his advocate. 

Good.  :-)

> The only place it causes some confusion over charging is if you're the content
> ISP which is originating the multicast. How do you charge your TV Channel
> customer? Sure, it won't be 2Mbps at your normal per Mbps rate, but equally it
> won't be 2Mbps * the number of end users watching the stream. It'll be
> somewhere in the middle, probably tending far more towards the 2Mbps end.

Sure; people who supply lots of bandwidth to content providers *now* will 
probably be unhappy about this idea, but...  no business is guaranteed 
its business model; that observation goes back at *least* to Robert Heinlein's
first short story, "Lifeline" from 1954(?)... and I *think* he was quoting
Supreme Court Justice Learned Hand, but haven't been able to source it.

The real problem I see myself is that *the Mbone has to be pervasive* (or
mostly so) for this to be a worthwhile investment for providers.

Not to mention it being practical for eyeballs to *get* to it; haven't seen
that HOWTO pointer yet from anyone.  :-)

Weekly Routing Table Report

[Routing Analysis Role Account]

This is an automated weekly mailing describing the state of the Internet
Routing Table as seen from APNIC's router in Japan.

The posting is sent to APOPS, NANOG, AfNOG, AusNOG, SANOG, PacNOG, LacNOG,
CaribNOG and the RIPE Routing Working Group.

Daily listings are sent to bgp-st...@lists.apnic.net

For historical data, please see http://thyme.rand.apnic.net.

If you have any comments please contact Philip Smith .

Routing Table Report   04:00 +10GMT Sat 30 Apr, 2011

Report Website: http://thyme.rand.apnic.net
Detailed Analysis:  http://thyme.rand.apnic.net/current/

Analysis Summary


BGP routing table entries examined:  356141
Prefixes after maximum aggregation:  161025
Deaggregation factor:  2.21
Unique aggregates announced to Internet: 175803
Total ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 37438
Prefixes per ASN:  9.51
Origin-only ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:   31355
Origin ASes announcing only one prefix:   15082
Transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:5058
Transit-only ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:135
Average AS path length visible in the Internet Routing Table:   4.4
Max AS path length visible:  36
Max AS path prepend of ASN (36992)   29
Prefixes from unregistered ASNs in the Routing Table:   584
Unregistered ASNs in the Routing Table: 291
Number of 32-bit ASNs allocated by the RIRs:   1317
Number of 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table:1025
Prefixes from 32-bit ASNs in the Routing Table:2298
Special use prefixes present in the Routing Table:0
Prefixes being announced from unallocated address space:148
Number of addresses announced to Internet:   2420666304
Equivalent to 144 /8s, 72 /16s and 111 /24s
Percentage of available address space announced:   65.3
Percentage of allocated address space announced:   65.3
Percentage of available address space allocated:  100.0
Percentage of address space in use by end-sites:   90.6
Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations:  147936

APNIC Region Analysis Summary
-

Prefixes being announced by APNIC Region ASes:89082
Total APNIC prefixes after maximum aggregation:   29925
APNIC Deaggregation factor:2.98
Prefixes being announced from the APNIC address blocks:   85522
Unique aggregates announced from the APNIC address blocks:36919
APNIC Region origin ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:4425
APNIC Prefixes per ASN:   19.33
APNIC Region origin ASes announcing only one prefix:   1232
APNIC Region transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:703
Average APNIC Region AS path length visible:4.6
Max APNIC Region AS path length visible: 18
Number of APNIC region 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table: 48
Number of APNIC addresses announced to Internet:  611294496
Equivalent to 36 /8s, 111 /16s and 157 /24s
Percentage of available APNIC address space announced: 77.5

APNIC AS Blocks4608-4864, 7467-7722, 9216-10239, 17408-18431
(pre-ERX allocations)  23552-24575, 37888-38911, 45056-46079
   55296-56319, 131072-132095
APNIC Address Blocks 1/8,  14/8,  27/8,  36/8,  39/8,  42/8,  43/8,
49/8,  58/8,  59/8,  60/8,  61/8, 101/8, 103/8,
   106/8, 110/8, 111/8, 112/8, 113/8, 114/8, 115/8,
   116/8, 117/8, 118/8, 119/8, 120/8, 121/8, 122/8,
   123/8, 124/8, 125/8, 126/8, 133/8, 175/8, 180/8,
   182/8, 183/8, 202/8, 203/8, 210/8, 211/8, 218/8,
   219/8, 220/8, 221/8, 222/8, 223/8,

ARIN Region Analysis Summary


Prefixes being announced by ARIN Region ASes:140235
Total ARIN prefixes after maximum aggregation:71231
ARIN Deaggregation factor: 1.97
Prefixes being announced from the ARIN address blocks:   112584
Unique aggregates announced from the ARIN address blocks: 45236
ARIN Region origin ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:14345
ARIN Prefixes per ASN: 7.85
ARIN Region origin ASes announcing only one prefix:5478
ARIN Region transit ASes present in the 

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Simon Lockhart]

On Fri Apr 29, 2011 at 01:48:51PM -0400, Jay Ashworth wrote:
> Will they not complain about having their equipment utilization go up
> with no recompense -- for something that is only of benefit to commercial
> customers of some other entity?

Sorry, but are your eyeballs not already paying you for that bandwidth that
they are consuming. Multicast merely optimises that across your network.

You have 200,000 eyeballs all watching the royal wedding on youtube, at 2Mbps
per stream.

or

You have 200,000 eyeballs all watching the royal wedding on multicast, with
no more than one copy of 2Mbps going over each of your backbone links.

I know which one I'd prefer.

The only place it causes some confusion over charging is if you're the content
ISP which is originating the multicast. How do you charge your TV Channel
customer? Sure, it won't be 2Mbps at your normal per Mbps rate, but equally it
won't be 2Mbps * the number of end users watching the stream. It'll be 
somewhere in the middle, probably tending far more towards the 2Mbps end.

Simon

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Dan White]

On 29/04/11 14:04 -0400, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:

On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 13:48:51 EDT, Jay Ashworth said:

Will they not complain about having their equipment utilization go up
with no recompense -- for something that is only of benefit to commercial
customers of some other entity?


Like their load didn't go up with no recompense this morning.


For what it's worth, we didn't see much of bump this morning on our
broadband network... maybe a 10-15% spike (and non-peak hours at that).


What's the break-even point, the number of streams being sent at once where
multicasting it starts taking less resources than N unicast streams?


Video distribution is bound to continue to go in the direction of
Netflix/Youtube where ISPs are going to be highly motivated to find cheaper
ways to provide internet content to their end users. And directly peered,
multicast agreements between CDNs and ISPs are going to be a real quick way
to chop operational costs. Even if that doesn't apply to Netflix content
today, it's bound to matter for content that consumers are going to want to
consume in real time (sporting events).

From the perspective of an ISP operating in a small market, we are seeing a
big shift in usage toward Netflix and netflix-like services that is
necessarily going to change the model of how we provide internet services.
We have limited access to CDN or Content-Producer peering agreements (that
would help to save costs) and, even if we did, we're in no position to
demand ingress cash flow in those agreements (not enough eyeballs!). Since
our users are the ones with the business arrangements with Netflix, and since
their demand is shifting in that direction, I'd imagine we'd jump at a
chance for private multicast agreements, even if demand didn't quite
warrant it at this point.



--
Dan White

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Rubens Kuhl]

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Jay Ashworth  wrote:
> - Original Message -
>> From: "Rubens Kuhl" 
>
>> >> Isn't the real problem with global multicast: "How do we ultimately
>> >> bill the broadcaster for all that traffic amplification that
>> >> happened
>> >> *inside* every other AS?" It seems like you'd have to do per-packet
>> >> accounting at every router, and coordinate billing/reporting
>> >> amongst
>> >> all providers that saw those packets.
>>
>> Broadcast encrypted streams. Unicast the key distribution, allowing
>> interested parties to count, bill, block, allow, litigate, agree...
>
> And that's the snap answer, yes.  But the *load*, while admittedly
> lessened over unicast, falls *mostly* to the carriers, who cannot anymore
> bill for it, either to end users, providers, *or* as transit.

Why not ? One can set conditions for doing multicast replication prior
to doing it, and they might include payment for services. We don`t
have a global Multicast RP for everyone to use, each operator chooses
if, how and when multicast streams are going into their RPs.

> Will they not complain about having their equipment utilization go up
> with no recompense -- for something that is only of benefit to commercial
> customers of some other entity?

Unicast streaming has done it already, as Vladis pointed out...


Rubens

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 13:48:51 EDT, Jay Ashworth said:
> Will they not complain about having their equipment utilization go up
> with no recompense -- for something that is only of benefit to commercial
> customers of some other entity?

Like their load didn't go up with no recompense this morning.

What's the break-even point, the number of streams being sent at once where
multicasting it starts taking less resources than N unicast streams?



pgptumKykenV1.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Jay Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "Rubens Kuhl" 

> >> Isn't the real problem with global multicast: "How do we ultimately
> >> bill the broadcaster for all that traffic amplification that
> >> happened
> >> *inside* every other AS?" It seems like you'd have to do per-packet
> >> accounting at every router, and coordinate billing/reporting
> >> amongst
> >> all providers that saw those packets.
> 
> Broadcast encrypted streams. Unicast the key distribution, allowing
> interested parties to count, bill, block, allow, litigate, agree...

And that's the snap answer, yes.  But the *load*, while admittedly 
lessened over unicast, falls *mostly* to the carriers, who cannot anymore
bill for it, either to end users, providers, *or* as transit.

Will they not complain about having their equipment utilization go up
with no recompense -- for something that is only of benefit to commercial
customers of some other entity?

You're effectively pushing the CDN into the backbone, here; no?

Cheers,
-- jra

Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Rubens Kuhl]

>> Isn't the real problem with global multicast: "How do we ultimately
>> bill the broadcaster for all that traffic amplification that happened
>> *inside* every other AS?" It seems like you'd have to do per-packet
>> accounting at every router, and coordinate billing/reporting amongst
>> all providers that saw those packets.

Broadcast encrypted streams. Unicast the key distribution, allowing
interested parties to count, bill, block, allow, litigate, agree...


Rubens

Re: Carrier Contact

[Tom Pipes]

I just wanted to pass on a huge thanks to the members of this list who gave
suggestions, and ultimately VZW's LERG Contact and the tech who contacted me
this morning and got the routing translation fixed.  It once again proves
how valuable Nanog list membership can be in identifying the appropriate
contacts for a Carrier and resolving technical issues.

Sincerely,

Tom Pipes
Essex Telcom


On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Tom Pipes  wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> Does anyone know who I could contact at Verizon Wireless
> regarding mis-routing one of my NXX blocks?
>
> Off list responses are fine.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Tom Pipes
> Essex Telcom Inc
>
>

How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)

[Jay Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "Ryan Malayter" 

> On Apr 28, 11:14 pm, Jay Ashworth  wrote:
> > > (cough)multicast(cough)
> >
> > But... but... how do we count the viewers, then?
> 
> Isn't the real problem with global multicast: "How do we ultimately
> bill the broadcaster for all that traffic amplification that happened
> *inside* every other AS?" It seems like you'd have to do per-packet
> accounting at every router, and coordinate billing/reporting amongst
> all providers that saw those packets.

See, now, I expected to hear that objection.

Internet engineers are prone to try to solve this problem in favor of
the viewer, and their networks -- with their networks winning in case
of a push.

*Program providers*, OTOH, have a completely different set of "optimal"
parameters -- many of which are directly at odds with that approach, and
most of which are completely ignored by Internet engineering types when 
working on this stuff.

And OTGH, even if, say, a local TV station wanted to let people do this
sort of thing, *the people they get their programs from* -- both at the
Network and the "provider to Network" level -- will expect to have their
own say in the matter.

*Certainly* there should be a Multicast Cloud, and an easy way for 
program providers to dump things into it.  But, as you say, who's going
to pay for it is an issue, and how one enforces that is another even
more contentious one.

Layer 9 is a *bitch*, isn't it?

So: if I *wanted* to put my video in the multicast cloud... how would 
I do it?  I do, after all, now work for a TV network which sells things;
this is not an idle question for me: the more people who can see me,
the better. 

Is it a nice, packaged howto, with easily built code?

Pointers?

Cause it seems to me that the fewer speedbumps there are along the way,
the sooner it will happen, all that nassty, nassty commerce, notwithstanding.

Cheers,
-- jra

RE: Wire-rate Packet Capture on 10gbE

[Joe Happe]

Might also take a look at Gigamon, Anue Systems, and similar vendors.  It's 
possible to use these switches to "slice and dice" traffic from a 10g input to 
a farm of 1g tools for packet capture, ids, waf, content filtering etc.  
Although there is a cost, it's usually cheaper than having to upgrade multiple 
existing tools to 10g speeds.  It also solves the issues with the number of 
source span's allowed on many Cisco switches, and avoids the bus/disk issues 
tools run into when dealing with 10g linerates.  (For now at least)  

~jdh

-Original Message-
From: Michael Holstein [mailto:michael.holst...@csuohio.edu] 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 9:44 AM
To: Kyle Creyts
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Wire-rate Packet Capture on 10gbE


> How is this being done? I've looked at looked at PF_RING and TNAPI... 
> is there anything better out there?
>   

Those two (thanks to Luca) can get you most of the way there, but to really hit 
the target you need dedicated kit like Endace (and a few
others) make. They basically do what was represented in the CCC slides somebody 
else posted (FPGA with own logic), but on a PCIe card.

Once you've got the ethernet -> interface problem addressed, you need to 
examine bottlenecks in interface->bus and particularly bus->disk.

Regards,

Michael Holstein
Cleveland State Unversity


> --Kyle
>
>   


__

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Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you 
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should immediately 
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message.

Re: Wire-rate Packet Capture on 10gbE

[Nathan Stratton]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2011, Michael Holstein wrote:


Those two (thanks to Luca) can get you most of the way there, but to
really hit the target you need dedicated kit like Endace (and a few
others) make. They basically do what was represented in the CCC slides
somebody else posted (FPGA with own logic), but on a PCIe card.

Once you've got the ethernet -> interface problem addressed, you need to
examine bottlenecks in interface->bus and particularly bus->disk.


One good open source solution on the disk side is Gluster with 10 gig 
infiniband on the back end. Gluster allows you to build a distributed 
storage over many servers. You can find 10 gig infiniband cards on ebay 
for around $50 and a good 24 port topspin/cisco switch will cost you about 
$1K.



<>

Nathan StrattonCTO, BlinkMind, Inc.
nathan at robotics.net nathan at blinkmind.com
http://www.robotics.nethttp://www.blinkmind.com

Re: Wire-rate Packet Capture on 10gbE

[Michael Holstein]

> How is this being done? I've looked at looked at PF_RING and TNAPI... is
> there anything better out there?
>   

Those two (thanks to Luca) can get you most of the way there, but to
really hit the target you need dedicated kit like Endace (and a few
others) make. They basically do what was represented in the CCC slides
somebody else posted (FPGA with own logic), but on a PCIe card.

Once you've got the ethernet -> interface problem addressed, you need to
examine bottlenecks in interface->bus and particularly bus->disk.

Regards,

Michael Holstein
Cleveland State Unversity


> --Kyle
>
>   

Re: Wire-rate Packet Capture on 10gbE

[Attilla de Groot]

On Apr 29, 2011, at 3:55 PM, Kyle Creyts wrote:

> How is this being done? I've looked at looked at PF_RING and TNAPI... is
> there anything better out there?

http://events.ccc.de/congress/2006/Fahrplan/attachments/1225-23c3-slides-av.pdf

That should give you some answers. :-)


-- Attilla

Wire-rate Packet Capture on 10gbE

[Kyle Creyts]

How is this being done? I've looked at looked at PF_RING and TNAPI... is
there anything better out there?

--Kyle

Re: open source DPI suggestions?

[Kornelijus Survila]

Snort (http://www.snort.org/) is also a nice IDS. They provide paid and free
rules/signatures.

-k

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:55 AM, Raymond Burkholder wrote:

> > > Can anyone suggest any open source DPI (deep packet inspection)
> > projects?
> >
> >
> > I'll recommend Bro-IDS (http://www.bro-ids.org/) as it's what I spend my
> > days working on.  It's essentially a programming language for long term
> > network traffic monitoring which is focused on doing deep decoding of
> > application layer protocols.  (and it's BSD licensed!)
> >
>
> http://l7-filter.sourceforge.net/ might be another candidate.
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
>

RE: open source DPI suggestions?

[Raymond Burkholder]

> > Can anyone suggest any open source DPI (deep packet inspection)
> projects?
> 
> 
> I'll recommend Bro-IDS (http://www.bro-ids.org/) as it's what I spend my
> days working on.  It's essentially a programming language for long term
> network traffic monitoring which is focused on doing deep decoding of
> application layer protocols.  (and it's BSD licensed!)
> 

http://l7-filter.sourceforge.net/ might be another candidate.


-- 
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Re: open source DPI suggestions?

[Seth Hall]

On Apr 29, 2011, at 3:54 AM, Rogelio wrote:

> Can anyone suggest any open source DPI (deep packet inspection) projects?


I'll recommend Bro-IDS (http://www.bro-ids.org/) as it's what I spend my days 
working on.  It's essentially a programming language for long term network 
traffic monitoring which is focused on doing deep decoding of application layer 
protocols.  (and it's BSD licensed!)

.Seth

--
Seth Hall
International Computer Science Institute
(Bro) because everyone has a network
http://www.bro-ids.org/

Re: OPERATIONAL: Royal Wedding expected to break traffic records

[Tim Chown]

On 29 Apr 2011, at 03:26, Rob V wrote:

> Not just that ... Youtube is apparently expecting 400 million (?!) viewers!
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/zd/20110428/tc_zd/263745
> 
> 
> The doomsayers are out with freshly painted signs ... the Internet will break 
> tomorrow morning! :-)

Must say the quality of the Youtube coverage has been very good, in all senses.

Interesting early on the youtube feed lagged 20+ seconds behind the 'live' BBC 
TV, then during the ceremony was almost simulataneous.

Tim

open source DPI suggestions?

[Rogelio]

Can anyone suggest any open source DPI (deep packet inspection) projects?

I am working on various telco projects in emerging markets, but can't
quite justify the price for the bigger and more well known players.
:/

(Until then, I'll have to rely on some of the more well known Linux
and BSD traffic shaping tools)


-- 
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