[PD] Re: [PD-announce] Pd-lists now running on mailman3

[Peter P.]

Hi Iohannes,

* IEM Network Operation Center (IOhannes m zmölnig)  [2024-08-08 
17:22]:
> Hi all,
> 
> as mentioned previously on pd-list, I have updated our mailinglist server to
> mailman3.
Thanks a lot for the upgrade!

[...]
> # archives
> the old archives have been imported into the new system (with the notable
> exception of the pd-cvs archive; but the pd-cvs list has not seen any
> activity for the last 5 years), but the old links are still intact (and now
> redirect to the new interface).
Great! It looks like the archive search is a lot more usable now!

Oh, and I just found the first ever mail sent to the list in 1998:
https://lists.iem.at/hyperkitty/list/pd-list@lists.iem.at/thread/DRAVLMBRHDJGVOXOK34HVCYV7LTOMGPK/

> - the new archive no longer provides a single mbox download for the entire
> archive (sorry p8ter, but i think you were the only one using this). 
All fine, the new search seems really good now.

Thanks again!
Peter

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Re: [PD] Deken down?

[Peter P.]

* Peter P.  [2024-06-27 16:19]:
> Hi list,
> 
> it seems http://deken.puredata.info/ is currently down?
And it is working again, thank you very much!

Do we know the reason for the outage? Just asking because I discovered
it in front of a workshop audience, when all participants were required to
install a library via Deken.

thanks again!
Peter



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[PD] Deken down?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

it seems http://deken.puredata.info/ is currently down?

Thanks, Peter



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Re: [PD] Pd64/Gem (was Re: general availability of binary externals for pd64?)

[Peter P.]

* IOhannes m zmoelnig  [2024-06-26 16:54]:
> On 6/13/24 12:15, Peter P. wrote:
> > * Alexandre Torres Porres  [2024-06-13 10:24]:
> > > in pd64, go to deken and ask it to show 'all externals'
> > Thanks, good idea Alexandre!
> > 
> > 
> > Just for reference, on Debian Deken in pd64 lists 147 libraries while in
> > pd it lists 518 libraries.
> 
> as of today, the Pd64 family of externals has a new member: Gem (snapshot).
> 
> Windows and macOS builds are up on deken (Linux builds are as well, but - as
> previously - you need to install the dependencies yourself).
> 
> i casually checked the macOS binaries, but for Windows the tests were less
> thorough, as my test (virtual) machine lacked openGL.

Great news-thanks IOhannes!
Will the Debian Gem packages also hold the 64bit versions eventually?
best, P



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[PD] 0.55 displaying warning when opening Help's "list of objects"

[Peter P.]

Howdy and thanks for PD 0.55!

When opening the "List of objects" I receive:
warning -- 'template' (pd-help-intro.pd) is obsolete; replace with 'struct'

best, P



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[PD] text label for toggle: default x offset?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

I would like to propose a default x offset for the label of toggle to
become 8 instead of the current 0. The current 0 makes the first
character sit within the patch cord vertically leading to toggle's
inlet. Right now I have to re-adjust the offset for every toggle created to
enhance label readability.

One workaround is to start the label with a whitespace (space) character,
but this is too easily forgotten.

looking for comments and opinions
cheersz, Peter



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Re: [PD] Programmatic way to detect audio I/O errors

[Peter P.]

Roman,
good idea! 
Note that there is some kind of check for audio discontinuities in
7.stuff/tools/latency.pd
as well.

* Roman Haefeli  [2024-06-14 09:36]:
> Hey all
> 
> The Pd main window has an indicator for audio I/O errors that flashes
> red whenever it detected a buffer underrun. Is that information exposed
> in a way it can be accessed in a patch?
> 
> If not, would that be a worthwhile feature? I think: yes.
> 
> A patch using audio input for recording could immediately tell if the
> recording is garbage, for instance.
> 
> My current use case is for clocks: When a drop-out is detected, it is a
> good moment for re-syncing the clock as the steadiness is lost anyway
> at that moment and the drop-out is basically the only reason for clock
> drifts.
> 
> The poor man's drop-out detection (and what I do now) is to compare
> [time] and [realtime]. However, the delta between them varies depending
> on the configured buffersize. Only if the delta is larger than the
> buffersize, one can be sure that a drop-out happened. Having that info
> reliably from Pd directly would be definitely better.
> 
> Roman
> 



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Re: [PD] general availability of binary externals for pd64?

[Peter P.]

* Alexandre Torres Porres  [2024-06-13 10:24]:
> in pd64, go to deken and ask it to show 'all externals'
Thanks, good idea Alexandre!


Just for reference, on Debian Deken in pd64 lists 147 libraries while in
pd it lists 518 libraries.

Now trying to list 64bit externals installable via apt(itutde). So far I
am able to create a textfile holding all such packages via
$ aptitude search ^pd- | grep -v i386 | grep -v ^v | cut -d " " -f 3 > > 
pdPackages.txt
excluding i386 and virtual packages. This creates 88 entries on Debian
testing.
Now I'd only need to find a way to query and grep for package contents
without installing them ;).

best, P



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[PD] general availability of binary externals for pd64?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

is there a general webpage or similar thing tracking the availability of
(all) externals for pd64?

best, P



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[PD] hid for pd64

[Peter P.]

Hi dear list,

it seems that [hid] is not available for pd64 on Debian neither via
Deken, nor via apt.

In case anyone is thinking of packaging such binary version, it would be
very welcome!

thanks a lot!
Peter



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd 0.55-0 released

[Peter P.]

Great, thanks for all the improvements!
http://msp.ucsd.edu/Pd_documentation/x5.htm#s5.1
Peter

* Miller Puckette  [2024-06-11 04:49]:
> To Pd-announce:
> 
> Pd version 0.55-0 is available from https://msp.ucsd.edu/software.htm
> or (source only) via github: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data
> 
> cheers
> 
> Miller
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] pd64 and externals, deken etc?

[Peter P.]

* IOhannes m zmoelnig  [2024-05-27 11:51]:
> On 5/27/24 08:44, Peter P. wrote:
> > > 
> > > Thanks, do both versions of the compiled externals have the identical
> > > filename extension then?
> 
> no.
> 
> > (Sorry, replying to myself here)
> > 
> > this seems the case, at least for apt-packaged zexy:
> > $ dpkg -L pd-zexy | grep .pd_linux
> > /usr/lib/pd/extra/zexy/zexy.pd_linux
> > 
> > ...is the only file found.
> 
> ```
> $ dpkg -L pd-zexy | grep "zexy\."
> /usr/lib/pd/extra/zexy/zexy.linux-amd64-64.so
> /usr/lib/pd/extra/zexy/zexy.pd_linux

Thanks for the correcty grep syntax.

Aja,pd-zexy 2.4.1-4 
on my Debian stable system provides only 
/usr/lib/pd/extra/zexy/zexy.pd_linux
but pd-zexy 2.4.3-1 on testing does contain both precisions then,
brilliant!

So the bottom line might then be:
Deken developers should ideally package both single and double precision
binaries of their externals into the same package.

Deken users should note that newer version packages uninstall older
version packages, as this might remove a single precision package when
installing a double precision package with a higher version number
(unless that feature is disabled in dekens preferences).

right?

best, P



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Re: [PD] pd64 and externals, deken etc?

[Peter P.]

* Peter P.  [2024-05-27 08:41]:
> * IOhannes m zmölnig  [2024-05-26 11:17]:
> > Am 26. Mai 2024 11:11:53 MESZ schrieb "IOhannes m zmölnig" 
> > :
> > >Am 26. Mai 2024 09:40:02 MESZ schrieb "Peter P." 
> > >:
> > >>
> > >
> > >> Will I have to install specific externals via Deken or apt then?
> > >
> > >Via deken: only externals that are compatible will be shown. So when 
> > >running Pd64, you will only see externals that can deal with double 
> > >precision (or are precision agnostic, eg pure abstractions).
> > >
> > 
> > Also note that some maintainers might have chosen to upload separate pd32 
> > and pd64 packages for their externals (as opposed to having a single 
> > package for both variants).
> > If both pd variants install into the same directory (which is the default), 
> > then installing the pd64 external will (by default) first remove the pd32 
> > external.
> > You can change this (in the deken preferences).
> 
> Thanks, do both versions of the compiled externals have the identical
> filename extension then?
(Sorry, replying to myself here)

this seems the case, at least for apt-packaged zexy:
$ dpkg -L pd-zexy | grep .pd_linux
/usr/lib/pd/extra/zexy/zexy.pd_linux

...is the only file found.

best, P



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Re: [PD] pd64 and externals, deken etc?

[Peter P.]

* IOhannes m zmölnig  [2024-05-26 11:17]:
> Am 26. Mai 2024 11:11:53 MESZ schrieb "IOhannes m zmölnig" :
> >Am 26. Mai 2024 09:40:02 MESZ schrieb "Peter P." :
> >>
> >
> >> Will I have to install specific externals via Deken or apt then?
> >
> >Via deken: only externals that are compatible will be shown. So when running 
> >Pd64, you will only see externals that can deal with double precision (or 
> >are precision agnostic, eg pure abstractions).
> >
> 
> Also note that some maintainers might have chosen to upload separate pd32 and 
> pd64 packages for their externals (as opposed to having a single package for 
> both variants).
> If both pd variants install into the same directory (which is the default), 
> then installing the pd64 external will (by default) first remove the pd32 
> external.
> You can change this (in the deken preferences).

Thanks, do both versions of the compiled externals have the identical
filename extension then?

If yes, is there a way to have externals of both versions installed in
parallel without specifying different install locations?

best, P



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Re: [PD] pd alternatives in Debian?

[Peter P.]

* IOhannes m zmölnig  [2024-05-26 10:50]:
> Am 26. Mai 2024 09:31:38 MESZ schrieb "Peter P." :
> >Hi list,
> >
> >just curious, what's the rationale to have
> >/usr/bin/pd pointing to /etc/alternatives/pd , which is a symlink to
> >/usr/bin/puredata on Debian?
> >
> >thanks!
> >Peter
> 
> It's a leftover from the idea that pd-extended would be packaged as well. 
> (And both would provide a "pd" binary)
Makes total sense.
 
> Are you experiencing any issues because of that? 
No, was just puzzled by the fact that there is 
/usr/bin/pd
and
/usr/bin/puredata

All fine now-thanks!
P



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[PD] pd64 and externals, deken etc?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

is double-precision Pd a possible way to get around interpolation
artifacts (B16.long-varispeed.pd) for tabread4~ and delread4~?

I found out that I can have both, single and double precision Pd,
installed in parallel in Debian, thank's to IOhannes clever packaging. 

From the few sources explaining pd64
http://puredata.info/downloads/pd-double
https://www.katjaas.nl/doubleprecision/doubleprecision.html
I suspect that externals have to be compiled for double precision as
well? Will I have to install specific externals via Deken or apt then?
Are all™ such externals available in both flavours?

From skimming Katja's article, I understand that memory usage of patches
in pd64 will be larger than in single precision. Will cpu usage also
increase?

Thanks for any help understanding this better!
cheersz, P



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[PD] pd alternatives in Debian?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

just curious, what's the rationale to have
/usr/bin/pd pointing to /etc/alternatives/pd , which is a symlink to
/usr/bin/puredata on Debian?

thanks!
Peter



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd 0.55-0 test version released

[Peter P.]

* Christof Ressi  [2024-05-14 18:40]:
> > I wonder what the updates to the audio interfacing and scheduler are?
> 
> See https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/1756.
Thanks, amazing!
best, P



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd 0.55-0 test version released

[Peter P.]

* Miller Puckette  [2024-05-14 16:24]:
> To Pd-announce:
> 
> Pd version 0.55-0 test2 is available from http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.htm

Thanks Miller,

just reading the changelog at
https://msp.ucsd.edu/Pd_documentation/x5.htm#s5.1
I wonder what the updates to the audio interfacing and scheduler are?

best, Peter



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Re: [PD] Mailing list archive search: Remove attachment.htm results?

[Peter P.]

* IOhannes m zmoelnig  [2024-04-23 12:06]:
> On 4/23/24 08:56, Peter P. wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > The search function on https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list//
> > is great, but a large number of search results are of the form
> > "/pipermail/pd-list/attachments/20160527/3e480100/attachment.html"
> > and are more or less unreadable.
> > 
> > I would like to suggest to exclude them from the indexing or from the
> > results if possible.
> 
> 
> what you are seeing is emails that come with both HTML and plaintext.
> 
> typically, a mail-client that composes HTML mail, will include the same
> information in a plaintext part of the email. but there's not really
> anything enforcing this (if you are usually reading plaintext emails, you
> will know this "you need an HTML-capable mail client to read this" message)
Thanks, indeed known to me.
 
> as such, i do not think there's anything wrong with including the HTML parts
> (even if they are rendered verbatim) in the search results, as they might
> contain information otherwise unavailable.
The main issue is, that I don't get the email's subject for the HTML
emails, do you?

> in any case, i'm afraid this is rather low priority.
I don't know. It renders about 50% of the results useless, at least to
me, and even more so to less experienced users.
> in the meantime you could try filtering out the HTML attachments by
> excluding some html tag (e.g. adding ` -div ` to the search terms helps for
> me; however, this will also exclude mails that discuss the use of [div]...)
Thanks, will try this bit of inside knowledge!

best,
Peter



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Re: [PD] copy data between arrays

[Peter P.]

Thanks for this hint Oliver!

Can't test right now but am curious if audio drops out (eg. playing a
sine test tone while copying some 10secs of table data) and if there is
any (dis)advantages over the get/set method below.

cheersz, P

* oli...@klingt.org  [2024-04-23 10:22]:
> Also just found out by chance that writing and reading to/from clipboard also 
> works !
> 
> [write clipboard(
> |
> [array define a1]
> 
> 
> [read clipboard(
> |
> [array define a2]
> 
> Can you confirm this ?
> 
> Best
> 
> Oliver
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am 23. April 2024 10:15:00 MESZ schrieb "Peter P." :
> >Replying to myself here, after this solution has been suggested to me
> >off-list:
> >
> >[bang(   
> >   
> >|
> >   
> >[array get one]  
> >   
> >|
> >   
> >[array set two]
> >
> >seems to work for larger tables without audio dropouts.
> >
> >Much appreciated help, thanks!
> >P
> >
> >* Peter P.  [2024-04-23 08:54]:
> >> Hi list,
> >> 
> >> I am sure this has been asked many times, but I can't find a solution in
> >> the mailing list archive. How can I copy data between arrays, in my case
> >> arrays of 48 samples without using externals and without blocking
> >> the DSP computation (causing dropouts)?
> >> I know that I can write to disk and read from it again, but is there a
> >> way that does not require disk access?
> >> 
> >> Thanks for all ideas!
> >> Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >___
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> 
> -- 
> 
> Gesendet von meinem Endgerät
> 

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Re: [PD] copy data between arrays

[Peter P.]

Replying to myself here, after this solution has been suggested to me
off-list:

[bang(  

|   

[array get one] 

|   

[array set two]

seems to work for larger tables without audio dropouts.

Much appreciated help, thanks!
P

* Peter P.  [2024-04-23 08:54]:
> Hi list,
> 
> I am sure this has been asked many times, but I can't find a solution in
> the mailing list archive. How can I copy data between arrays, in my case
> arrays of 48 samples without using externals and without blocking
> the DSP computation (causing dropouts)?
> I know that I can write to disk and read from it again, but is there a
> way that does not require disk access?
> 
> Thanks for all ideas!
> Peter



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[PD] Mailing list archive search: Remove attachment.htm results?

[Peter P.]

Hi,

The search function on https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list//
is great, but a large number of search results are of the form
"/pipermail/pd-list/attachments/20160527/3e480100/attachment.html"
and are more or less unreadable.

I would like to suggest to exclude them from the indexing or from the
results if possible.

cheersz, Peter



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[PD] copy data between arrays

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

I am sure this has been asked many times, but I can't find a solution in
the mailing list archive. How can I copy data between arrays, in my case
arrays of 48 samples without using externals and without blocking
the DSP computation (causing dropouts)?
I know that I can write to disk and read from it again, but is there a
way that does not require disk access?

Thanks for all ideas!
Peter



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Re: [PD] [hidraw] repeated identical mouse wheel events not reported?

[Peter P.]

* Lucas Cordiviola  [2024-04-17 09:26]:
> @Peter
> 
> v0.1.1 is up on deken: https://deken.puredata.info/results.html?name=hidraw
Thank you for your quick response, fix and deken upload, Lucas!

The problem is still there with the current
hidraw v0.1.1 and hidapi v0.14.0 on Linux
that is, the same message (mouse wheel scroll down or up) does not get output 
(checked with print)
unless I move the mouse one pixel in between.

Thanks again!
Peter



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[PD] [hidraw] repeated identical mouse wheel events not reported?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

I am using [hidraw] to read events from a mouse. I understand that
hidraw in fact reports the entire state of the device rather whenever
some event happens. Interestingly, moving the scroll wheel down by one
step is reported, but moving it down another step afterwards is not
reported unless a different event (say, moving the mouse a pixel) is
done.
It makes somehow sense if I think of the mouse wheel as a state device,
where a repeated "wheel down" is not considered as a change of state. 

Nevertheless it seems impossible to parse repeated wheel down actions.
Does anyone have an idea (besides using [hid] instead)?

Thanks!
Peter



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[PD] Add to docs: [loadbang] also fires upon (re)creation

[Peter P.]

Hi,

just found out that [loadbang] also fires a bang when the object is
created, or re-created, not only when the patch containing it is opened.
It could be nice to have a word about this in its help patch perhaps.

Thanks!
P



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Re: [PD] vcf~ producing output without input for 0Hz cutoff?

[Peter P.]

Thank you Christof,

your equation helped me a lot, and now I see why some DC component will
be circulating the filter forever.

Thank you Edwin,

explaining that "0 Hz is an infinite amount of octaves below 20 Hz" made
me understand that a cutoff at 0Hz will not reduce DC by -3dB.

Looking at [vcf~]'s help patch closer, I read that the filter's real and
complex outputs may be combined to allow for other filtering possibilies
than band-pass and low-pass. Does anyone have a quick example of such a
combination? I reckon that I make a highpass filter by subtracting the
lowpass-filtered signal from the same unfiltered signal?

Thanks again to everyone,
Peter

* Christof Ressi  [2024-04-12 09:36]:
> Just expand on Antoine's post, let's look at the formula of Pd's 1-pole
> lowpass filter:
> 
> k = freq * 2pi / sr
> 
> y[i] = x[i] * k + y[i-1] * (1 - k)
> 
> For freq=0 this becomes:
> 
> y[i] = y[i-1]
> 
> As you can see, this would just repeat the previous output infinitely,
> ignoring the input altogether. There is no decay to zero!
> 
> The same reasoning applies to bandpass filters such as [vcf~].
> 
> Christof
> 
> On 12.04.2024 09:10, cyrille henry wrote:
> > I don't think it's weird for a lowpass filter to go under 20Hz. They are
> > not restricted to audio signals.
> > I use them a lot to smooth control signals, or to replace line~.
> > (I really hate line~ to control sound amplitude or preset transition,
> > it's way too robotic)
> > 
> > cheers
> > c
> > 
> > Le 12/04/2024 à 08:01, Alexandre Torres Porres a écrit :
> > > and you got a strong DC component over there :)
> > > 
> > > anyway, it also seems weird to have a lowpass or a bandpass going as
> > > low as in the 20hz range. If you wanna do it just so it fades out to
> > > silence, you need a DC filter, something like a [hip~ 5] object, so
> > > when the lowpass, bandpass gets there, then you have nothing.
> > > 
> > > cheers
> > > 
> > > Em qui., 11 de abr. de 2024 às 15:40, Antoine Rousseau
> > > mailto:anto...@metalu.net>> escreveu:
> > > 
> > >     Well, let's simplify a bit, forget all the filter complexity (Q,
> > > slope, definition of the cutoff frequency...).
> > > 
> > >     Let's just say that the output of a lowpass filter cannot move
> > > faster than the cutoff frequency: a 1Hz filter output cannot move
> > > faster than 1Hz (so it can't go back and forth in less than a second
> > > or so), a 1kHz can't go back and forth in less than about 1ms, etc.
> > > The output of a 0Hz filter can't move... at all. When you set the
> > > cutoff to 0Hz, the output freezes to its current value. It won't
> > > magically decay to 0.
> > > 
> > >     Hey, if you set the framerate of a movie to 0 frame/second, it
> > > will just stop, and will show the same image forever; it won't fade
> > > to black!
> > > 
> > >     Antoine
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >     Le jeu. 11 avr. 2024 à 14:08, Peter P.  > > <mailto:peterpar...@fastmail.com>> a écrit :
> > > 
> > >     * Antoine Rousseau  > > <mailto:anto...@metalu.net>> [2024-04-11 13:40]:
> > >  > That doesn't seem incorrect to me; after all, a lowpass
> > > filter at 0Hz
> > >  > implies that its output is constant (any change would
> > > involve frequencies >
> > >  > 0Hz).
> > > 
> > >     Thanks Antoine,
> > > 
> > >     Why does a lowpass filter, that has a cutoff frequency of
> > > 0Hz imply that
> > >     it's output is constant?
> > > 
> > >     I will describe the problem again hoping that I will
> > > understand it
> > >     better myseld:
> > >     I have an oscillating input signal that has some DC offset
> > > (unipolar
> > >     sawtooth from phasor~). I fade this signal's amplitude to
> > > -inf dB using
> > >     [line~].
> > > 
> > >     I also fade down the filter cutoff (defined as the -3dB
> > > point of the
> > >     filter curve) from 400Hz to 0Hz. The filter will then
> > > continue to produce an
> > >     non-decaying output.
> > > 
> > >     If I fade down the filter cutoff down to only 1Hz, it's
> > > output will decay (somehow
> > >     counterintuitively to me). This is t

Re: [PD] [hidraw] get more info on HID values on Mac OS laptop?

[Peter P.]

* Patko nytkophilus  [2024-04-11 22:15]:
> Hello,
> 
>  I've just compiled hid-0.7 from https://github.com/pd-externals/hid for mac 
> m1, it's highly documented and sources are provided, the Makefile is for 
> macos only, and it doesn't require the xcode project anymore.
> 
>  You should find it with deken in 24 hours with the name hid-0.7-1 with 
> critapec as author.
Thanks Pat,

good to hear that there is a new m1 binary!

I was actually looking for a way to find out which hid device represents which 
sensors, and
what these sensors do mean in more detail 

best, P



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[PD] [hidraw] get more info on HID values on Mac OS laptop?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

does anyone know of a good way to get more information about HIDs on Mac
OS? Currently a colleague is using [hidraw] on a MacBook Pro 14" 2021 M1
MacOS 14.1.2 and is trying to understand what some of the reported
sensor values represent. He has found out that one of the devices
reports the angle of the laptop display hinge, another device reports
many many values, of which about 24 are constanly changing. It is still
difficult to figure out what they mean.

Is there a tool which queries this, or some documentation I haven't yet
found using a web search engine?

Thank you for all pointers,
Peter



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Re: [PD] vcf~ producing output without input for 0Hz cutoff?

[Peter P.]

* Antoine Rousseau  [2024-04-11 13:40]:
> That doesn't seem incorrect to me; after all, a lowpass filter at 0Hz
> implies that its output is constant (any change would involve frequencies >
> 0Hz).

Thanks Antoine,

Why does a lowpass filter, that has a cutoff frequency of 0Hz imply that
it's output is constant?

I will describe the problem again hoping that I will understand it
better myseld:
I have an oscillating input signal that has some DC offset (unipolar
sawtooth from phasor~). I fade this signal's amplitude to -inf dB using
[line~].

I also fade down the filter cutoff (defined as the -3dB point of the
filter curve) from 400Hz to 0Hz. The filter will then continue to produce an
non-decaying output.

If I fade down the filter cutoff down to only 1Hz, it's output will decay 
(somehow
counterintuitively to me). This is the part I don't get.

I understand that vcf~ is a resonant filter, and it can have a gain
greater 1 around the cutoff frequency, especially for high Q values. The
above behavior can also be observed for Q=1.

Thanks for all hints!
Peter



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Re: [PD] vcf~ producing output without input for 0Hz cutoff?

[Peter P.]

* Alexandre Torres Porres  [2024-04-10 22:19]:
> the problem is your input, with a DC component (0 hz). This doesn't seem to
> happen with [osc~] and seems like normal behaviour and not something to be
> documented

I see, phasor~'s waveform is not symmetric around 0, good point. But why
will vcf~'s output evnetually decay to -inf dB for a cutoff of 1Hz but
not for a cutoff of 0Hz?



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[PD] vcf~ producing output without input for 0Hz cutoff?

[Peter P.]

Howdy list,

just discovered, that [vcf~] produces output after its input has decayed
for a cutoff frequency of 0Hz, but not for values higher 0.

A minimal working example is attached. Is this behavior known? Could it
be mentioned in the help patch maybe? 

cheersz, P
#N canvas 416 334 716 365 12;
#X obj 78 213 vcf~ 12;
#X obj 78 131 *~;
#X obj 123 249 env~;
#X floatatom 123 277 5 0 0 3 - - - 0;
#X obj 78 57 phasor~ 300;
#X obj 130 111 line~;
#X msg 188 81 1 \, 0 1000;
#X obj 100 182 line~;
#X obj 317 42 bng 20 250 50 0 empty empty 1.start\ note 0 -10 0 12 #fcfcfc 
#00 #00;
#X obj 526 22 loadbang;
#X msg 526 52 \; pd dsp 1;
#X obj 70 286 env~;
#X floatatom 70 314 5 0 0 3 2.\ observe\ output\ after\ amplitude\ envelope\ 
has\ finished - - 0;
#X msg 133 151 400 \, 0 1000;
#X text 225 153 setting vcf~ cutoff to 0Hz will make it produce a signal.;
#X connect 0 0 11 0;
#X connect 0 1 2 0;
#X connect 1 0 0 0;
#X connect 2 0 3 0;
#X connect 4 0 1 0;
#X connect 5 0 1 1;
#X connect 6 0 5 0;
#X connect 7 0 0 1;
#X connect 8 0 6 0;
#X connect 8 0 13 0;
#X connect 9 0 10 0;
#X connect 11 0 12 0;
#X connect 13 0 7 0;
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[PD] [hidraw] get more info on HID values on Mac OS laptop?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

does anyone know of a good way to get more information about HIDs on Mac
OS? Currently a colleague is using [hidraw] on a MacBook Pro 14" 2021 M1
MacOS 14.1.2 and is trying to understand what some of the reported
sensor values represent. He has found out that one of the devices
reports the angle of the laptop display hinge, another device reports
many many values, of which about 24 are constanly changing. It is still
difficult to figure out what they mean.

Is there a tool which queries this, or some documentation I haven't yet
found using a web search engine?

Thank you for all pointers,
Peter



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[PD] pd.iem.at down?

[Peter P.]

Hi,

i am getting a "Service unavailable" response from my browser trying to
access http://pd.iem.at/ while other sites such as http://puredata.info/
are accessible.

cheersz, Peter



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[PD] disable mouse pointer (with xinput?) on os x?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

is there a way to disable the mouse pointer for a specific HID on os x? I want
to use an external usb mouse with [hidraw] without having it act as a
mouse pointer in the user interface.

On Debian/GNU Linux I can achieve this with xinput in the following way:

List all X input devices
xinput --list
filter for numeric ID of "USB Optical Mouse"
xinput --list | grep "USB Optical Mouse" | cut -d "=" -f 2 | cut -f 1
get the number for the "Device Enabled" parameter of that mouse
xinput --list-props `xinput --list | grep "USB Optical Mouse" | cut -d 
"=" -f 2 | cut -f 1`
which in my case is 164. Then change its value to 0 or back to 1
xinput --set-prop `xinput --list | grep "USB Optical Mouse" | cut -d 
"=" -f 2 | cut -f 1` 164 0
xinput --set-prop `xinput --list | grep "USB Optical Mouse" | cut -d 
"=" -f 2 | cut -f 1` 164 1

It seems xinput is (was?) available via MacPorts.
https://ports.macports.org/port/xinput/
I don't have an os x box to test this right now and am wondering if
anyone has already done this.

Thanks for any hints!
Peter



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Re: [PD] Add to documentation: makenote accepts lists in its leftmost inlet

[Peter P.]

Hi,

here is a reply from Miller that might have bypassed the list.

Peter

- Forwarded message from Miller Puckette  -

From: Miller Puckette 
To: "Peter P." 
Subject: Re: [PD] Add to documentation: makenote accepts lists in its
 leftmost inlet
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2024 12:41:48 -0400

Certain objects (like spigot or list) don't work this way.  I don't think
there's a hard-and-fast rule.  Perhaps the ones that manage lists specially
should be flagged as not distributing lists among inlets.

cheers

Miller

On 3/14/24 17:36, Peter P. wrote:
> * Roman Haefeli  [2024-03-14 15:57]:
> > On Thu, 2024-03-14 at 15:34 +0100, Peter P. wrote:
> > > the help patch for [makenote] could mention that the object accepts a
> > > list in its leftmost inlet as well, or is this behavior taken for
> > > granted along all message-objects?
> > > 
> > Yes, this my understanding. When list messages are received on the
> > left-most inlet, the atoms are spread over the inlets.
> > 
> > [9 7(
> > |
> > [- ]
> > |
> > [2 \
> Thanks Roman!
> I knew about this with the simple math objects, but can someone confirm
> that it does work for all objects?
> 
> Best, P
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Add to documentation: makenote accepts lists in its leftmost inlet

[Peter P.]

* Roman Haefeli  [2024-03-14 15:57]:
> 
> On Thu, 2024-03-14 at 15:34 +0100, Peter P. wrote:
> > 
> > the help patch for [makenote] could mention that the object accepts a
> > list in its leftmost inlet as well, or is this behavior taken for
> > granted along all message-objects?
> > 
> 
> Yes, this my understanding. When list messages are received on the
> left-most inlet, the atoms are spread over the inlets. 
> 
> [9 7(
> |
> [- ]
> |
> [2 \
Thanks Roman!
I knew about this with the simple math objects, but can someone confirm
that it does work for all objects?

Best, P



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[PD] Add to documentation: makenote accepts lists in its leftmost inlet

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

the help patch for [makenote] could mention that the object accepts a
list in its leftmost inlet as well, or is this behavior taken for
granted along all message-objects?

thanks!
P



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Re: [PD] hid objects on linux/mac/win? hidraw on linux? hidraw parsing?

[Peter P.]

Dear Albert, Lucas, list,

* Albert Rafetseder  [2024-03-13 08:21]:
> Dear Peter & all,
> 
> > On Linux I can install [hidraw] 0.1.0 via Deken. The external loads
> > without errors, but I am not getting any response clicking the
> > "listdevices" message.
> 
> As Lucas reported in the other thread, this works just fine for me. (Do you
> see any USB devices, HID or not, when you `lsusb -v` on the command line?)
Yes, I see three HIDs amongst other usb devices.

I just found the problem: /dev/hidraw* were not assigned to the 'input'
user group I am a member of. Now I just have to check if these
permissions are persistent across reboots.

I didn't recongnize this as the source of my problem since [hid] uses
/dev/input/* paths, which had the correct permissions already.

> > Colleagues have tried to find [hid] for their newer apple cpu's
> > without success unless they start Pd under the Rosetta emulation and
> > install Albert's amd64-32 package.
> 
> Good to know, and sorry for making you depend on Rosetta. I don't have much
> time to finally get the build system for [hid] updated, nor have access to
> Apple Silicon. Some kind soul on this list even offered to compile things
> for me -- I've gotten nowhere with the required thinking and coding since, I
> apologize!
No worries!

> > Interestingly there exists a hid Deken package for Darwin-arm64-32
> > http://deken.puredata.info/library/hid/0.1.0
> > but it is not displayed in Pd's built-in search engine on OS X as far as
> > I can remember (maybe someone can check this?).
> 
> Deken on pd 0.52.1 (a self-built version IIRC) on Linux, when configured to
> *not* hide packages for foreign platforms, gives me this:
> 
> hid[v0.1.0](Darwin-arm64-32).dek
>   Uploaded by critapec @ 2022-11-09 00:32:28
Yes, that's the package I was referring to. Did anyone install and use
it on Mac M1 cpu's natively?
 
> > On Windows there is only [hidraw], correct?
> 
> At least there is no [hid]. The sources and makefile include mentions of
> "cygwin", but I don't have a Windows machine either. Even if I could build
> it with mingw, I couldn't test.

I just found out that there is also [hidio] for Windows by Martin Peach,
which should get mentioned in the wiki page kindly created by Albert at
https://puredata.info/Members/albert/USB

Excellent page Albert, thank you!

[hidio] also got compiled for Mac it seems:
https://github.com/Benitoite/hidio
forked from
https://puredata.info/downloads/hidio

I think it should include some info about setting permissions
(permanently) as well as a hint to security issues when logging
keypresses all the time.

That page could furthermore include information about the [key] objects
to only report key presses when Pd has the focus, and that automatic key
repeats from the OS might be a major hindrance for certain cases (such
as mimicing an organ keyboard).
On Linux I it can be disabled using 'xset r off'.
[hid] and/or [hidraw] might be able to circumvent this issue.

Btw, Gem offers [gemmouse], and there are certain 2D mousable canvas
abstractins flying around the Pd world.

best, Peter



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Re: [PD] hid objects on linux/mac/win? hidraw on linux? hidraw parsing?

[Peter P.]

I am forwarding another helpful reply from Lucas below, which seems to have 
bypassed
this list. Thank you Lucas for the information, this is much
appreciated! P

- Forwarded message from Lucas Cordiviola -

Subject: Re: [PD] hid objects on linux/mac/win? hidraw on linux? hidraw parsing?
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 01:37:42 -0300

I don't wanna go to deep into HIDs as I know little about it.

I came to [hidraw] because i needed something easy for Windows (iirc hids
external were not working for me on Windows at that time) so I was writing my
first externals as a training and decided to wrap
https://github.com/libusb/hidapi.

> I am a bit puzzled that I don't get any error message from [hidraw] when
> trying 'listdevices'.

Me too. I had tested on Windows and Debian and it worked. On macOS I tested it
on a VM but i could not get "listed" devices. Someone at the time of the
release reported it worked just fine on a real mac with a real joystick.

> Understood. How can I tell which element of the list belongs to which
> switch/dimension/etc? Are these floats somehow (binary) encoded?

Yes they are encoded. There's a good side and a bad one. The good one is that
no "symbols" are used and that's better at Pd's internal message side. The bad
side is that each device has it's own implementation of this list of floats.
https://github.com/libusb/hidapi just grabs them and spits them. In [hidio]
and other better externals there's and OS layer involved that can tell
canonically what "switch/dimension/etc" it has received. So these externals
make your life easier and more realistic.

But if you get the chance to open a device with [hidraw] you won't be much
scared of the list of bytes. if you press one button you'll get say "0 11 0 0"
and on release you'll get "0 0 0 0". if you press another one you'll get say
"0 12 0 0".  Each float on the list represent a byte (0 - 255) and each device
has a different number of (fixed) items in the list.



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[PD] hid objects on linux/mac/win? hidraw on linux? hidraw parsing?

[Peter P.]

Dear list,

I am trying to bring my knowledge of hid-related objects up to date for all
three OSes.

On Linux I can install [hid] 0.7 via Deken and use it as a normal user
as a member of the 'input' users group.

On Linux I can install [hidraw] 0.1.0 via Deken. The external loads
without errors, but I am not getting any response clicking the
"listdevices" message.

On OS X there is [hid] 0.7.3 thanks to Albert.
Colleagues have tried to find [hid] for their newer apple cpu's
without success unless they start Pd under the Rosetta emulation and
install Albert's amd64-32 package.
Interestingly there exists a hid Deken package for Darwin-arm64-32
http://deken.puredata.info/library/hid/0.1.0
but it is not displayed in Pd's built-in search engine on OS X as far as
I can remember (maybe someone can check this?).

On Windows there is only [hidraw], correct?

General question:
What would be a reason to prefer [hidraw] over [hid]?
How do I parse the output of [hidraw]?

Thank you for any replies!
best, Peter



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] pmpd v 0.13

[Peter P.]

* cyrille henry  [2024-03-12 17:08]:
> I don't know about debian package. Is it Iohannes job, or should I do 
> something?
I am not sure. I filed a bug report earlier this year to initiate a
package update at
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1060212

The package info page at
https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/pd-pmpd
lists our dear brave and hard working IOhannes as one of three
maintainers.

I am not sure how the packaging process works and if you, Cyrille, need
to do something specific.

best, P



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] pmpd v 0.13

[Peter P.]

Génial! Thanks to Benjamin and to you Cyrille! Hope it will be be
packaged as updated pd-pmpd for Debian in addition to the Deken
release.

best, P

* cyrille henry  [2024-03-11 15:11]:
> Hello,
> 
> Thanks to all the help provide by Benjamin Wesch, pmpd (Physical Modelling 
> for Pure Data) version 0.13 is ready.
> 
> 
> pmpd aim to provide physical modelling (mass/spring system) simulation to 
> control data in natural ways. Audio synthesis is also possible, now in 2d or 
> 3d thanks to the new objects : pmpd2d~ and pmpd3d~.
> 
> It's on deken.
> 
> Cheers
> Cyrille
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] RIP Ed Kelly

[Peter P.]

Dan, Lucas, thanks for your efforts! Why not host on puredata.info?
cheersz, P

* Dan Wilcox  [2024-03-12 08:42]:
> Thanks for spreading the post.
> 
> I was also thinking we should consider preserving the metastudio patches and
> externals somewhere, perhaps on the pd-externals GitHub group, as with 
> mrpeach.
> Who knows how long the website will remain up.
> 
> enohp ym morf tnes
> ---
> Dan Wilcox
> danomatika.com
> robotcowboy.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 12, 2024, at 6:02 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> pd-l2ork , 11 de mar. de 2024 às 16:00, Dan Wilcox 
> escreveu:
> 
> @Alex: Is there a condolences page to write to, specifically not on
> Facebook, etc? Maybe we can all write something to show his touch
> beyond in-person relationships.
> 
> 
> Sorry, I missed this. I had posted your nice entry on the Pd facebook 
> page,
> where the said news was given.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/puredata
> 
> this is his facebook profile https://www.facebook.com/ed.kelly.35574
> 
> And this is Tehomas, who gave the news https://www.facebook.com/tehomas I
> know he'd be happy to forward messages to the family, I had also sent yout
> nice post to him via a direct message 
> 
> While we're at it, I fear if his work eventually vanishes from the online
> world. We should download, keep it and host it somewhere to be safe maybe?
> 
> cheers
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> It's a great shame, I remember him with great joy, I still 
> remember
> the
> anecdote about the dog. A great guy.
> :/
> Jos?
> 
> 
> @Jos?: What was the anecdote?
> 
> 
> On Mar 10, 2024, at 11:18 PM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 14:49:26 -0300
> From: Alexandre Torres Porres 
> To: Pd-List 
> Subject: [PD] RIP Ed Kelly
> Message-ID:
> 
>  >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Tehomas Bow on facebook gave us the bad news. He had a stroke and
> fell, got
> injured and passed away this friday. He leaves us soon, just 
> before
> turning
> 50. Ed was quite a fun character, I loved him, he'll be missed.
> Rest in
> Peace.
> 
> * March 29th, 1974
> ? March 8th, 2024
> 
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> danomatika.com
> robotcowboy.com
> 
> 

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Re: [PD] RIP Ed Kelly

[Peter P.]

So sad. I remeber him as a truly unique character with a lot of energy.

* Chris McCormick  [2024-03-11 11:09]:
> Sad to hear this. So long, Ed.
> 
> I believe this was his most recent work. Love this album.
> 
> https://synchroma.bandcamp.com/album/driftwood
> 
> Maybe we can listen to it again today and remember him.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Chris.
> 
> 
> On 11/3/24 9:22 am, João Pais wrote:
> > that is a pity, he was one of the punkiest patchers around and a fun guy.
> > 
> > 
> > I'll miss him!
> > 
> > Miller
> > 
> > On 3/11/24 03:31, José Luis Santorcuato Tapia wrote:
> >  > It's a great shame, I remember him with great joy, I still remember
> >  > the anecdote about the dog. A great guy.
> >  > :/
> >  > José
> >  >
> >  > El dom, 10 mar 2024 a las 18:19, Antoine Rousseau
> >  > (mailto:anto...@metalu.net>>) escribió:
> >  >
> >  >     I'm sad too. I was lucky enough to work with him on NinjaJamm,
> >  >     unfortunately I never met him face to face.
> >  >     He had a very personal way of patching, and I'll never forget
> > him!
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >     Le dim. 10 mars 2024 à 22:36, Jaime Oliver
> >  >     mailto:jaime.oliv...@gmail.com>> a
> > écrit :
> >  >
> >  >         Very sad news indeed!
> >  >         Goodbye Ed Kelly!
> >  >         J
> >  >
> >  >         On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 5:07 PM IOhannes m zmölnig
> >  >         mailto:zmoel...@iem.at>> wrote:
> >  >
> >  >             On 3/10/24 18:49, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> >  >             > Tehomas Bow on facebook gave us the bad news. He had a
> >  >             stroke and fell, got
> >  >             > injured and passed away this friday. He leaves us soon,
> >  >             just before turning
> >  >             > 50. Ed was quite a fun character, I loved him, he'll be
> >  >             missed. Rest in
> >  >             > Peace.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >             this is indeed sad news.
> >  >             the lone shark now sails uncharted waters.
> >  >
> >  >             mdsar
> >  >             IOhannes m zmölnig
> >  >             ___
> >  > Pd-list@lists.iem.at  mailing list
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> >  > https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> >  > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> 
> -- 
> https://mccormick.cx/
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Multiple 'extra' paths (was Re: Can't load iemmatrix lib)

[Peter P.]

Hi Joseph, hi IOhannes,

you two got me curious and on my Debian stable system I have

/usr/lib/puredata/extra/, which holds the external distributed with Pd as
part of Debian's puredata-extra package, and 
/usr/lib/pd/extra/ which holds other external installed as Debian
packages, such as pd-zexy pd-cyclone pd-iemmatrix gem.

Just for reference, there is also ~/.local/lib/pd/extra holding my Deken
installs.

best, Peter

* Linux ROUEN Normandie  [2024-01-20 19:18]:
> As requested here attached the Pd screens capture.
> 
> Comment:
> - Both '/usr/lib/pd/extra' and '/usr/lib/puredata/extra' paths were not
> added back yet to Pd Preferences.
> - 'home/joe/Pure-Data/externals/iemmatrix' has to be removed as this folder
> doesn't exist anymore (it was for the 'iemmatrix' thru Deken) now replaced
> by 'Pd-iemmatrix' installed into '/usr/lib/pd/extra' by the Package Mgr.
> 
> Best,
> Joseph
> 
> 
> Le 20/01/2024 à 15:31, IOhannes m zmölnig a écrit :
> > Am 20. Jänner 2024 14:47:47 MEZ schrieb Linux ROUEN Normandie 
> > :
> > > > (that is, unless you somehow add "-nostdpath" to your startup flags, 
> > > > but i can hardly believe that you would do such a thing)
> > > No such path added to my startup flags, in fact I have no startup flag at 
> > > all.
> > Could you please post a screenshot of your "path" preferences?
> > 
> > And probably your ~/.pdsettings file as well...
> > 
> > Thx
> > (Changing the subject as this has gone well beyond problems with 
> > "iemmatrix")
> > 
> > mfg.sfg.jfd
> > IOhannes
> > 
> > 
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Re: [PD] Can't load iemmatrix lib

[Peter P.]

Hi (gia sou?) Alexandros,

since you are on Debian, try installing the Debian package pd-iemmatrix
instead, which pulls in libgsl27 as a dependency. I generally prefer
installing pd externals via apt since they will be updated
automatically, a feature that deken still seems to be missing. At least
my question about Deken updates in 
https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list//2024-01/132863.html
remains unanswered as of today.

The downside of using apt instead of Deken is that it *might* take
longer for updated externals to become available, but YMMV.

In fact, I keep a textfile on my disk to document which externals to
install via apt and which via Deken.

Nevertheless the Deken packagers for iemmatrix might want to learn about
this issue

best, P

* Alexandros Drymonitis  [2024-01-17 15:48]:
> I've installed iemmatrix from deken, but when I put a [declare -lib
> iemmatrix] in Pd, I get the following error:
> 
> /home/alex/Documents/Pd/externals/iemmatrix/iemmatrix.pd_linux:libgsl.so.25:
> cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
> 
> I'm on Debian 12, with Pd-0.54.1

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Re: [PD] time/date

[Peter P.]

Hrvoje,
have you checked the list archives at pd.iem.at?
best, P

* Hrvoje Radnic via Pd-list  [2024-01-16 11:27]:
> Dear group,
> Is there any solution for getting the system time-date in pure data vanilla? 
> I would like to use my quick recording abstraction without worrying about 
> file name and I know it could be done by using [savestate] and incremental 
> numbering system, but I think it could be much more elegant to just use the 
> time-date stamp as file name.
> Thank you! 
> Hrvoje Radnic
> https://www.instagram.com/singlecycled/
> 
> https://pdvrecords.bandcamp.com/album/umovi-protiv-valova
> https://soundcloud.com/sumovi-protiv-valova
> 00385(0)915225162

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Re: [PD] call for test : pmpd binary for osX

[Peter P.]

* IOhannes m zmölnig  [2024-01-06 20:42]:
> On 1/6/24 09:18, Peter P. wrote:
> > By the way, the pd-pmpd Debian package from stable-backports lists
> > version 0.9-7 while Deken provides 0.12.
> 
> 
> please file a bugreport against the Debian package so it gets updated.
Done.
Added another report to eventually remove puredata-import as well.

cheersz, P



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[PD] updates through deken and the [import] object

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

I am wondering if there are any considerations amongst developers to
allow the upgrade of externals/libraries through deken eventually?

I have just discovered the [import] library, described on [1] as "Aiming
to provide a simplified Python-style import for Pure Data, this import
object loads libraries as part of a patch. It will load anything that Pd
considers a library, including libraries that are defined by Pd loaders
like 'libdir'. "
Do I understand it correctly that it will automatically load externals
that are used in a patch without having to explicitly use [declare -lib
...]?

Oh, and [import] seems to be unavailable through deken, which makes me
believe that it is possibly an older project?

Thanks for all hints!
P

[1] https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/puredata-import



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Re: [PD] call for test : pmpd binary for osX

[Peter P.]

Just in case it is helpful:

* Patco  [2024-01-06 00:50]:
[...]
> When 08.balls2D.pd is opened after 07.corde3D it crashes pd
Not the case on Debian/GNU Linux with pmpd 0.12 from Deken.
 
[...]
> 14.MP.curve3D.pd crashes pd when it's opened after exemple 13 and on closing 
> patch.
Also not the case on Debian/GNU Linux with pmpd 0.12 from Deken.

By the way, the pd-pmpd Debian package from stable-backports lists
version 0.9-7 while Deken provides 0.12.

cheersz,
P



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Re: [PD] water model object

[Peter P.]

* Kasper Jordaens  [2023-12-19 12:46]:
> Hi,
> 
> a couple of years ago, I bumped into an object or an abstraction that was
> able to synthesize the sound of water, ranging from a drop to a waterfall
> with an intensity slider.
Andy Farnell: Designing Sound



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Re: [PD] MIDI loop

[Peter P.]

* Chris McCormick  [2023-11-17 04:29]:
> Hi,
> 
> Does anybody know of an object (maybe an abstraction over cyclone/seq) with
> the following properties:
> 
> * Takes an external MIDI clock tick (like seq).
> * Stores MIDI events as they happen (like seq).
> * Can play back recording when ticks start from 0 (like seq).
> * Can take a message like "loop 64" and it will then loop the last 64 beats
> worth of messages it has stored from the moment it is pressed.

Witout checking its specs myself you might want to look at Kristof
Czaja's [xeq] which no longer lives at
http://suita.chopin.edu.pl/~czaja/miXed/externs/xeq.html
but was forked to
https://github.com/pd-externals/xeq

cheersz, P



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Re: [PD] Relative Db measurement

[Peter P.]

* Andy Farnell  [2023-11-04 09:49]:
[...]
> confused about what is the best way to do that, the choices being
> [samphold] and [env]. So I'd also be interested in the best (most
> accurate) answer.
Andy, [samphold] as well as [snapshot~] do give you the amplitude value
of one single sample, which for audio signals is often in the range
between -1 and 1. [env~] will give you an dBRMS value (the mean of all
absolute amplitudes over a certain time window, converted to dB.

Was that your question?

I'rather be interested in the difference between [samphold~] and
[snapshot~]. They seem to almost do the same thing to me.

best, P



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Re: [PD] Relative Db measurement

[Peter P.]

* Chris McCormick  [2023-11-04 09:14]:
> Hi,
> 
> Hopefully this elementary audio question is not too stupid.
> 
> If I have some signal source how I can I measure the relative change in Db
> when some change is made to the signal? E.g. if I have an [osc~ 440] going
> into a [*~] and I change the multiplier, how can I measure the output from
> that and determine relative change in Db when I change the multiple?

Why not use [env~]? If its result changes, try a longer measurement
window. See the help patch.

best, Peter



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd 0.54-1 released

[Peter P.]

Dear Linux ROUEN Normandie,

* Linux ROUEN Normandie  [2023-11-04 00:27]:
[...]
> Key is stored in legacy trusted.gpg keyring (/etc/apt/trusted.gpg), see the
> DEPRECATION section in apt-key(8) for details.
Type
man apt-key
and search for the DEPRECATION section?

amicalement,
Peter



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[PD] round off the corners of a [line] movement?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

often when I use [line¨] to make frequency glissandi, the point when the
ramp starts, and the point where it ends, appear as very sudden events
to my ears. I am wondering if there is an easy way to gradually speed up
the ramp when it starts, and slow it down before it reaches its target
value?
The only way I can think of so far is to model such a behavior with two
masses connected by an elastic link using the pmpd library. But a
vanilla way would be very interesting too!

Thanks in advance for all ideas and pointers!
cheersz, Peter



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Re: [PD] use 2nd keyboard for note and control input to pd even when other apps have focus

[Peter P.]

* Billy Stiltner  [2023-09-15 23:10]:
> got the keyboard detachrd from xinput
> showing events with hid
> however events are not sent to key and keyup
> the keyboard reattached i itself after some inactivity
> today afyer rebooting
> the keyboard isnt showing up in xinpit
> it does show in lsusb though i think
> also cant enable bluetooth today
are punctuation marks on your keyboard still working



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Re: [PD] Gem v0.94-snapshot crashing on MacOS 10.15.7 when creating [gemwin]

[Peter P.]

* Peter P.  [2023-06-22 18:10]:
> Hi list,
> 
> it seems that Gem v0.94-snapshot from Deken within Pd 0.51.4 does crash
> silently when a gemwin Object is created on MacOS Catalina 10.15.7.

For the record: This issue has been resolved today:
https://github.com/umlaeute/Gem/issues/362

Thanks IOhannes!



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[PD] Gem v0.94-snapshot crashing on MacOS 10.15.7 when creating [gemwin]

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

it seems that Gem v0.94-snapshot from Deken within Pd 0.51.4 does crash
silently when a gemwin Object is created on MacOS Catalina 10.15.7.
What to try next?

Thanks!
Peter



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Re: [PD] copy [text] buffer contents to another text buffer?

[Peter P.]

Dear Antoine, dear Patko,

thank you both for your kind replies! In fact the solution Antoine
proposed already works nicely!

all the best,
Peter

* Patko nytkophilus  [2023-06-07 18:45]:
> Hello, you may look for this:
> 
> [line 0, bang(
>  |
> [text sequence alpha]
>  |
> [t a b]
>  | |
>  |[1 e+015(
>  | |
> [text set beta]
> 
> 
> 
> Le mer. 7 juin 2023, 13:07, Peter P.  a écrit :
> 
> > Hi list,
> >
> > what would be the easiest way to copy the contents of [text define
> > alpha] to [text define beta]? It seems [text get alpha] will only output
> > individual lines and I am looking for a single command that copies all.
> >
> > I have no experience with data structures and don't know if that would
> > help...
> >
> > Thanks for any, well, pointers!
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
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[PD] copy [text] buffer contents to another text buffer?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

what would be the easiest way to copy the contents of [text define
alpha] to [text define beta]? It seems [text get alpha] will only output
individual lines and I am looking for a single command that copies all.

I have no experience with data structures and don't know if that would
help...

Thanks for any, well, pointers!
Peter



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Re: [PD] update on Gem for Apple Silicon?

[Peter P.]

* IOhannes m zmölnig  [2023-06-02 09:04]:
[...]
> I do advise Linux people to
> just build Gem themselves (or use a distribution that offers packages for
> Gem's git snapshots). 
Thanks IOhannes! Which distro does pack these snapshots? On Debian I see
the following: https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/gem




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Re: [PD] example needed: rfft~ into magnitudes AND phases AND back

[Peter P.]

* cyrille henry  [2023-06-01 11:00]:
> hello,
> 
> expr~ is in vanilla!
> 
> so [expr atan2($f1, $f2)] should work.

Thanks Cyrille, that's a good hint! I think it should in fact be
[expr~ atan2($v2, $v1)] to work with signal vectors blockwise.

Now I am wondering if I should/need to unwrap the phases still...

cheersz, P



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[PD] drawing poles and zeros (z-plane) in Gem?

[Peter P.]

Hi has anyone already done a visualization of a z-plane with poles and
zeros in Gem?

cheersz, P



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Re: [PD] example needed: rfft~ into magnitudes AND phases AND back

[Peter P.]

Dear list,

I am still trying to calculate (unwrapped) phases from cartesian complex
numbers output by [rfft~] and got pointed to cyclone's [atan~] and
[phasewrap~]. I am wondering Is there a way to achieve the same with
vanilla pd objects?

Thanks!
Peter

* Peter P.  [2023-05-26 14:10]:
> Hi list,
> 
> trying to work on phase angles of spectra I am looking for an easy
> example with actual Pd objects how to convert a [rfft~] output from
> real and imaginary to magnitudes and phases, eventually unwrap phases if
> required, and then convert magnitudes and phases back to a cartesian for
> [rifft~].
> 
> I know about the Dudas/Lippe pvoc tutorials for MaxMSP but can not find
> much in Pd's documentation. Perhaps I am missing something?
> 
> Thanks for any pointers!
> best, Peter



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[PD] [text sequence] and rescheduling of updated buffers

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

I am using [text sequence] with wait times to generate timed events. The
contents of my list buffer look something like

 0 event1;
 1000 event2;
 1000 event3;

When I insert a line into the buffer using [text insert 2] 1400 msecs
after starting the sequencer, the text buffer looks like 

 0 event1;
 1000 event2;
 500 event2.5;
 1000 event3;

event2.5 will be output correctly, but event3 still fires 1000msecs
after event2. I include a minimum working example.

Since I would like to use this as a looping text sequencer, adding and
deleting events while it is running, I am wondering what exactly happens
behind the scenes when adding or deleting lines, and how I can achieve
predictable behavior. At which times is [text sequence] reading in the
buffer and (re)scheduling events?

Thanks for any help,
Peter
#N canvas 470 132 825 392 12;
#X obj 54 19 text define -k aloha;
#A set event1 \; 1000 event2 \; 500 event2.5 \; 1000 event3 \;;
#X obj 60 240 print;
#X obj 60 177 text sequence aloha -w 1;
#X msg 60 145 line 0 \, auto;
#X msg 351 149 500 event2.5 \;;
#X obj 352 177 text insert aloha 2;
#X obj 358 327 text delete aloha;
#X msg 358 298 2;
#X obj 351 62 bng 20 250 50 0 empty empty 2.\ adding\ an\ event\ after\ 1.4s 0 
-10 0 12 #fcfcfc #00 #00;
#X obj 60 69 bng 20 250 50 0 empty empty 1.sequence\ with\ three\ events 0 -10 
0 12 #fcfcfc #00 #00;
#X text 357 277 delete event2.5 again:;
#X text 320 202 event2.5 is output \, but event3 is not rescheduled?;
#X obj 351 111 delay 1400;
#X connect 2 0 1 0;
#X connect 3 0 2 0;
#X connect 4 0 5 0;
#X connect 7 0 6 0;
#X connect 8 0 3 0;
#X connect 8 0 12 0;
#X connect 9 0 3 0;
#X connect 12 0 4 0;
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Re: [PD] vbap for mac binary?

[Peter P.]

* Dan Wilcox  [2023-05-27 23:51]:
> 
> > On May 26, 2023, at 11:28 PM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> > * Dan Wilcox mailto:danomat...@gmail.com>> 
> > [2023-05-26 21:03]:
> >> It has been updated for pd-lib-builder and is very easy to compile from 
> >> source:
Thanks again! If someone compiles vbap the way you described, which Mac
architectures will then be able to load the external?

best, Peter



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Re: [PD] vbap for mac binary?

[Peter P.]

* Dan Wilcox  [2023-05-26 21:03]:
> It has been updated for pd-lib-builder and is very easy to compile from 
> source:
> 
> https://github.com/pd-externals/vbap
Thanks Dan, me for my part I don't have a mac computer, but am trying to
help someone else (who doesn't know how to compile). What would be
needed to package such a binary for deken then?
best, P



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[PD] example needed: rfft~ into magnitudes AND phases AND back

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

trying to work on phase angles of spectra I am looking for an easy
example with actual Pd objects how to convert a [rfft~] output from
real and imaginary to magnitudes and phases, eventually unwrap phases if
required, and then convert magnitudes and phases back to a cartesian for
[rifft~].

I know about the Dudas/Lippe pvoc tutorials for MaxMSP but can not find
much in Pd's documentation. Perhaps I am missing something?

Thanks for any pointers!
best, Peter



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[PD] vbap for mac binary?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

taking a look at vbap 
http://deken.puredata.info/library/vbap/0.0.extended
again after some years. There seem to be no os x binaries available. How
could they be added to deken, how can I help achieving this?
thanks, Peter



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Re: [PD] print a warnung when a slider's log value gets overwritten closing the properties

[Peter P.]

* Alexandre Torres Porres  [2023-05-16 06:43]:
> I think it could let us do it and print an error if we attempt to use the
> slider with this wrong setting
I think this is too late. The warning should be printed upon closing the
propoerties dialog.



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Re: [PD] [r pd-dsp-started] bangs upon object deletion?

[Peter P.]

* Christof Ressi  [2023-05-15 13:46]:
> > I am wondering why it outputs a bang when I create an (empty) object
> Does it really? Not for me.
Indeed, my bad.
 
> > and delete it again
> 
> Deleting any object causes the DSP graph to be updated. (As a side note, I
> *think* this wouldn't be necessary for non-DSP objects, but maybe I am
> missing something.)
> 
> > so the object reports all updates to the dsp graph maybe?
> Yes! A signal graph update implies that DSP is stopped and (re)started.
Then the help patch for [samplerate~] could sure benefit from a line
indicating this behavior.

Thanks!
Peter



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Re: [PD] [r pd-dsp-started] bangs upon object deletion?

[Peter P.]

Adding to my last email, that it outputs bangs when signal connections
are drawn. So the object reports all updates to the dsp graph maybe?

* Peter P.  [2023-05-15 12:31]:
> Hi list,
> 
> I am using [r pd-dsp-started] to recalculate parameters. I am wondering
> why it outputs a bang when I create an (empty) object, and delete it
> again, either with the "Cut" menu item or the backspace key.
> 
> Is this intentional and what would be a rationale?
> 
> Thanks!
> P



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[PD] [r pd-dsp-started] bangs upon object deletion?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

I am using [r pd-dsp-started] to recalculate parameters. I am wondering
why it outputs a bang when I create an (empty) object, and delete it
again, either with the "Cut" menu item or the backspace key.

Is this intentional and what would be a rationale?

Thanks!
P



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[PD] print a warnung when a slider's log value gets overwritten closing the properties

[Peter P.]

Hi,

graphical slider objects silently overwrite minimum values of zero with
a fraction of the maximum value when their properties dialog is closed.
I think this should be communicated as a warning to the user.

cheersz, P



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Re: [PD] Number atom box limits overstepped

[Peter P.]

* João Pais  [2023-05-11 09:18]:
> Hello list,
> 
> after all this time, I just noticed something which I'm not sure if it was
> always like that or it changed without me noticing it: in atom boxes one can
> define the lower/upper limits, which work when dragging with the mouse, but
> don't work when inputting a number or sending a message - the numbers go
> further. Since usually these limits are there to make sure that unwanted
> information doesn't go further, wouldn't it make sense to make those limits
> work on all cases?
> 
> For what it's worth, I checked on Max and that's the behaviour there. It
> seems strange to say "here are the limits, but in this and that situation
> they're ignored".
I guess the idea is that number boxes are transparent with regard to
messages input into them, and that they will not act on the data
according to something set (and hidden) in the properties dialog. You
have a [clip] object for this functionality, with the added plus of
making its function well visible.

Peter



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Re: [PD] Audio latency on linux

[Peter P.]

Orm, 
you might wanna see if running your interface in 96kHz will halve the
latency further.
best, P



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Re: [PD] [text] memory usage

[Peter P.]

Just found out that the large CPU and memory use only happens when
the text editor window is open. Otherwise adding thousand or so lines
works fine. Interestingly I can then still undo each of the thousand lines
by opening the window after they were inserted, so the undo mechanism is
working per se.

P

* Sebastian Shader via Pd-list  [2023-04-26 23:44]:
> Seems like the fix should already be in 0.54.afaict you can use the 'clear' 
> or 'set' messages to set the dirty flag to 0, which will clear the undo 
> history.but I'm also wondering if the text window actually has to exist to do 
> so, since 'peer' text objects are possible..
> 
> -seb;
> 
>On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 09:25:05 AM PDT, IOhannes m zmölnig 
>  wrote:  
>  
>  Am 26. April 2023 18:03:16 MESZ schrieb "Peter P." 
> :
> >Hi list,
> >
> >upon trying to add 1000 lines with [until] and [text insert] Pd/wish use up 
> >all RAM
> >(and swap space) on my 8GB Debian box. Is there a way to predict memory
> >usage for lines added? What would be the best strategy to do so without
> >locking up Pd?
> 
> 
> 
> If wish is eating up the memory, then it's most likely due to the internal 
> "undo" handling of the text-editor.
> If so, there's been an issue on GitHub about that, and I think there's also a 
> fix...
> 
> 
> mfg.sfg.jfd
> IOhannes
> 
> 
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[PD] [text] memory usage

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

upon trying to add 1000 lines with [until] and [text insert] Pd/wish use up all 
RAM
(and swap space) on my 8GB Debian box. Is there a way to predict memory
usage for lines added? What would be the best strategy to do so without
locking up Pd?

Thanks, Peter



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Re: [PD] midi file into [text sequence]?

[Peter P.]

Thanks Miller, Christof, Patko,

midi2sco looks really good, I also found midi2csv which does a similar
job, keeping the midi pitch notation but possibly specifying time in
midi ticks, hence needing some polishing of the results as well.

best, Peter

* Miller Puckette  [2023-04-22 13:26]:
> I've been using the "midi2sco" program to convert MIDI files to csound
> scores and then either reading the csound straight into a text object (read
> -c message so end-of-line terminates lists) - and/or writing simple awk
> scripts to change csound pitch notation back into MIDI pitches and convert
> times to milliseconds.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Miller
> 
> On 4/22/23 12:57, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > You can read the MIDI file with [mrpeach/midifile], output everything in
> > a loop and save the MIDI messages in a [text] object. You just need to
> > calculate the appropriate time delta between messages.
> > 
> > Christof
> > 
> > On 22.04.2023 07:46, Peter P. wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > starting to use [text sequence] instead of [qlist] more and more, I am
> > > wondering how difficult it might be to write an external script that
> > > converts .mid file into .txt usable by [textfile sequence]?
> > > 
> > > Has anyone attempted something similar already? What would be the
> > > easiest language and/or libraries to do this on DebianGNU Linux?
> > > 
> > > Thanks!
> > > Peter
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
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[PD] midi file into [text sequence]?

[Peter P.]

Hi,

starting to use [text sequence] instead of [qlist] more and more, I am
wondering how difficult it might be to write an external script that
converts .mid file into .txt usable by [textfile sequence]?

Has anyone attempted something similar already? What would be the
easiest language and/or libraries to do this on DebianGNU Linux?

Thanks!
Peter



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Re: [PD] object for showing images with a better quality than gif (like ggee/image) ?

[Peter P.]

http://deken.puredata.info/search.html?libraries=&objects=image&descriptions=
returns a result for moonlib. And then there is iemgui's iem_image
object https://git.iem.at/pd/iemgui/-/blob/master/iem_image-help.pd

Did not test any of those, but thought you might want to know about the
deken search engine.

* Ingo  [2023-04-01 15:49]:
> Hello,
> 
>  
> 
> I have been using [ggee/image] for showing simple (medium small) images
> which is working fine.
> 
> But now I need to show a large full HD picture in the full 1920x1080
> resolution and [ggee/image] gives me too many pixels.
> 
>  
> 
> Can anyone poind me to an external that can display high resolution JPGs?
> 
>  
> 
> I had been using [gem] to do this before which is working fine on Intel and
> ARM machines but for some reason not on AMD.
> 
> At least not in my case and the situation that I need it to work in.
> 
>  
> 
> Any help is appreciated!
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Ingo
> 

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Re: [PD] Noise in bp-filter

[Peter P.]

Daniel, can you try the [vcf~] object instead of [bp~]? The noise you
hear most likely happens when you change the filter frequency
non-continuously.

* Daniel Martin via Pd-list  [2023-02-17 20:15]:
> Dear PD-Users, I'm having a problem with a patch that 
> filters overtones from a sample. I use for that a bp filter. The center 
> values for frecuency, Q and output volume are changed according to which 
> overtone one wishes to hear. It is so configured, that one can select between 
> overtones 3 to 17, pressing keys d, r, f, t, g, y, h, u, j, i, k, o, l, p and 
> ñ (I have a spanish keyboard). The problem is when I want to change between 
> overtones: one hears a noise. I solved that partially by reducing the output 
> volume of the bp filter to 0, than changing the filter parameters values and 
> then raising up the volume again to 1. That works only with adjacent 
> overtones (for ex. overtone 3 to 4 or 3 to 5), but with larger jumps (for ex. 
> 3 to 15), the noise comes again, the larger the jump, the stronger the noise. 
> 
>    I send attached the patch and a sample (Fagot). You need to open 
> the sample ("open file" bang), select the third Vradio-square (Fagot, that 
> sends specific Q and volume values for filtering this sample), then start the 
> sample (key "a", it loops itself), then overtone selection (keys d, r, f, 
> t...). The filter is in the suubpatch "Overtone_Filter". If you try for 
> example changing from overtone 3 ("d") to 12 ("i") you'll hear a strong 
> noise... 
>  I hope you can help me! I'll use this for a research on overtones effects on 
> human health.
> Greetings!Daniel Salva
> 
>   



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[PD] [hidio] on Windows 11?

[Peter P.]

Hi,

trying to help someone to use [hidio] on Windows11 with a USB game
controller. The object loads
fine, prints the device list but throws an error therein for device 18:
[hidio] ERROR: Could not get HID attributes.

Trying to open random devices (as I can't figure out the correct number
from the above print result) I get errors such as:
[hidio]: could not get device #5: The process cannot access the file 
because it is being used by another process. (32)
or
[hidio] could not device 4
or the object crashes Pd.

Is anyone successfully using hid, is there some permissions issues with
windows and HID devices?

Thanks!
Peter



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[PD] verbose object search paths not displaying unless debug4?

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

I am trying to trace the non-loading of an external, iemguts in my case.
I enabled verbose messages either in the "Path" preferences or by the command
line flag. Nevertheless the familiar dump of all the places that are
being searched is not displayed unless I enable verbose mode 4. Is this
intentional and has this behavior been modified recently?

thanks!
P



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Re: [PD] Pd download pages are down

[Peter P.]

Mario, both currently are working from within my country on the european
continent.

* mario buoninfante  [2023-01-23 16:22]:
> Hi,
> 
> Just wanted to report that at the moment there is no way to download Pd
> from:
> 
>  * http://puredata.info/downloads/pure-data
>  * http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.html
> 
> because these seem to be both "broken".
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mario
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> musician, QA engineer, mental health first aider MHFA England
> 
> https://isoneph.bandcamp.com/
> https://vdof.bandcamp.com/
> http://mbuoninfante.tumblr.com
> https://vimeo.com/creativecodingsalerno
> https://github.com/mariobuoninfante

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[PD] Filter help patches typos

[Peter P.]

Hi,

just want to mention two typos:

rzero~-help.pd mentions that this was a "recursive" filter. Maybe this
is a copy+paste error from rpole~-help?

The difference equation in biquad~-help.pd gives an
x[n-3]
instead of
x[n-2]

cheersz, P



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Re: [PD] Old patch unable to run

[Peter P.]

Dear BadMuthaHubbard, (one of my favourite email addresses on this list
since long)

a quick check in the SVN repository of old externals yielded 
miXed/doc/help/toxy/tot-help.pd
which makes me assume there is a tot object in either a lib called
[miXed] or [toxy], maybe courtesy of Krzsystof Czaya or Hans-Christoph
Steiner. A quick startpage.com search brings up results which may
indicate that [toxy] is by now unmaintained. Others may have better
knowledge of its current situation.

cheersz, P

* Chuckk Hubbard  [2023-01-16 21:17]:
> Hello.
> This is from 2007. A complete microtonal sequencer in Pd, with 8 voices,
> copy-paste, tempo control, soundfont loading, etc.
> I know I used cyclone, Gem and zexy. I also used the csoundapi~ object, but
> I don't think it was essential, as the .csd file itself is invalid, so I
> probably never incorporated that. I updated to the csound6~ object; but I
> don't think this is a show-stopper.
> 
> I have two vexing errors, shown in the images: this [tot score] object and
> the Tcl error.
> I seem to think this [tot] object was also from an external, but I'm not
> seeing any hints in the lists of externals. It appears to be routing
> mouse/keyboard messages, real or artificially generated, no?
> 
> Chuckk
> 
> 
> 
> [image: JI-Pd-Errors.png][image: JI-totscore.png][image: JI-main.png]





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Re: [PD] dwt~

[Peter P.]

* Paul Pignon  [2023-01-16 10:51]:
> Just reinstalled Debian 11 (got really wonky), now missing lots of pd stuff.
> Need dwt~, not in creb anymore, though dwt~help.pd is there, oddly enough.
> Can anyone tell me where to look?
http://deken.puredata.info/
maybe.



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Re: [PD] is [sigmund~] a "phase vocoder"?

[Peter P.]

* Alexandre Torres Porres  [2022-12-12 17:23]:
> Hi, just get things straight and confirmed, for quite a while now I have
> included [sigmund~] into a "phase vocoder" section of my tutorial.
> 
> I never check and I'm just guessing it uses what is called "phase vocoder
> analysis" to find accurate pitches and that can be used in a bank of
> oscillators and I see that a so called "phase vocoder" is also used for
> reconstructing signals with an oscillator bank.
> 
> Who could confirm or deny this? :)
Perhaps his wife can help you here?
http://deken.puredata.info/library/martha~

best, P



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Re: [PD] [random] and seed value

[Peter P.]

Hi Thomas,

* Thomas Mayer  [2022-12-11 21:20]:
[...]
> My guess is, that most users probably expect at least different seed values
> every time.
> 
> Maybe the help file should explicitely state the behaviour or a different
> way for deriving the initial seed should be used, e.g. taking the local
> time. Or a better PRNG could be used as well.
> 
> If we take the solution to initialize [random] with a different seed each
> time, an explanation on how to revert to the old behaviour of a seed value
> of 1489853723 should be mentioned in the help.
I think the main thing to worry about is if any of the patches written
in the last 20+ years will stop working in the way intended by a such a
modification.

I loosely remember that someone somewhen showed how to get a different
seed every time using an abstraction. If such a solution exists in
vanilla Pd, it could be added as a solution to the docs perhaps?



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Re: [PD] some gui objects with grey background in help patches?

[Peter P.]

* Chris McCormick  [2022-11-23 03:45]:
> On 23/11/22 4:58 am, Peter P. wrote:
> > more views from others.
> 
> 
> Whoever paints the community bike shed gets to pick the colours.
Haha, lovely! Thanks Chris!



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Re: [PD] some gui objects with grey background in help patches?

[Peter P.]

Dear Lucas, list,

I am looking forward to get a discussion going, but for this we need
more views from others. I would indeed see an improvement to refrain
from colors ("extra grey stuff") where it doesn't highlight things.

I can live with many things, including all shades of grey. Just trying
to improve things (like everyone else I guess).

P

* Lucas Cordiviola  [2022-11-22 21:18]:
> Ok, this can be discussed and improved.
> 
> So now the issue is just about some *extra* grey stuff?
> 
> (but you can live with it, right?)
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
> 
> On 22/11/2022 16:15, Peter P. wrote:
> > I am putting up a proposal about using colors in vanilla the help
> > patches for discussion. I think these patches should
> > 
> > - Emphasize and encourage users to use the color features of GUI
> >elements by showing that in their respective help patches.
> > - Use colors in vanilla help patches to highlight essential objects and 
> > actions, for
> >example to indicate the one single bang button I need to press to start 
> > an example
> >therein.
> > - Stick to the non-color versions otherwise when no highlighting is
> >necessary, as for example the toggles for loudspeaker channels in
> >testtone.pd
> > 
> > Looking forward to a fruitful discussion,
> > P
> > 
> > 
> > 
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Re: [PD] some gui objects with grey background in help patches?

[Peter P.]

I am putting up a proposal about using colors in vanilla the help
patches for discussion. I think these patches should

- Emphasize and encourage users to use the color features of GUI
  elements by showing that in their respective help patches.
- Use colors in vanilla help patches to highlight essential objects and 
actions, for
  example to indicate the one single bang button I need to press to start an 
example
  therein.
- Stick to the non-color versions otherwise when no highlighting is
  necessary, as for example the toggles for loudspeaker channels in
  testtone.pd

Looking forward to a fruitful discussion,
P



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Re: [PD] some gui objects with grey background in help patches?

[Peter P.]

* Lucas Cordiviola  [2022-11-22 15:47]:
[...]
> Can we switch the discussion back to "How colors should be handled in Pd's
> documentation" and sort this out?
Thank you Lucarda! Can this be discussed here, or would github be a
more suitable place?

cheersz, P



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Re: [PD] some gui objects with grey background in help patches?

[Peter P.]

Alexandre,
I am having a hard time reading your last mail to this list because the
formatting (or lack thereof) makes it hard to decypher, which lines are
quotes and which lines are your own contribution.

Please let's keep this discussion short and not annoying. I just want to
suggest to get rid of colors of gui objects again in order to keep the cognitive
load to a minimum when trying to get the actual nformation from the help 
patches.

Thank you for considering my case,
P



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Re: [PD] some gui objects with grey background in help patches?

[Peter P.]

Hi Scott,

* Scott R. Looney  [2022-11-21 06:56]:
[...]
> i guess there might be considered a Tcl/Tk option to not have/draw colored
> backgrounds in any patch window, similar to how one can change the default
> canvas background/foreground color currently. 
I don't think this is a good solution. We definitely do not want more
options/startup flags.

> but as for modifying all
> vanilla help file backgrounds for a few power users used to stark UI
> design, there would have to be a lot of strong support for that.
I guess it can be done with a script and wouldn't need to be done
manually.

> additionally the comment on Facebook users being considered less 'hardcore'
> is somewhat prejudicial. there is quite a lot of crossover on FB with
> mailing list users. 
Thank you for that point.

> you should also consider putting this survey on the
> Discord that Mike(Miguel) Moreno runs as a number of users there are also
> on the mailing list.
Yes, or even here:
https://framadate.org/create_poll.php?type=autre&lang=en
where no accounts are required.

best, 
P



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Re: [PD] some gui objects with grey background in help patches?

[Peter P.]

Hi,

* Alexandre Torres Porres  [2022-11-21 04:10]:
> While we're at it, over my years in the Pd land, the feedback I got the
> most was how Pd Vanilla's documentation was so "poor" and "inferior" to,
> for instance, Pd-Extended's (not to mention MAX's). Currently Extended is
> reincarnated as Pd-l2ork/Purr Data, which are also praised as "better
> documented". 
I always found Pd-Extended to be overloaded and a bit bloated. The
reasons why Pd has a simple and "pure" design are stated by Miller in
several of his publications. One of the reasons was to keep the code
managable. If I remember correctly, the complexity of Extended was also
what brought it down in the end when Hans coulnd't keep up with the
workload.

> I became a Pd user when, I don't know, maybe over 90% of people used
> Pd-Extended :)
I remember that time differently and doubt that 90% were using Extended
over Vanilla. I do remember Extended being pushed as the one
distribution that has all externals already included ("simply works"), a
very noble attempt, that is no longer around due to the complexity
involved in the development and maintenance. The comunity has learned
from that experience and has established the fantastic Deken package
manager!

> I'm designing a tutorial that I use to teach for about 15
> years and it depended on Pd Extended for over a decade. Now it depends on
> ELSE which has a more discrete template design. I never saw anyone being
> confused by the complexity, colorfulness or whatever... on the contrary!
All fine, I was only raising this topic for Vanilla, not wrt. to the
valuable contributions you mention.
 
> Pd extended is gone but I'm still not sure we've fully got over it. 
Yes we are over it, because we have the Deken package manager. 

> When dealing with recent changes to Pd's documentation, I can say there
> were requests to copy the model of Pd-extended/Purr Data into Vanilla or
> use it as a basis. Funny how people have different desires and
> expectations, right? 
Yes, I don't see a need to copy that model into Vanilla help patches and
like Miller's style therein very much.

[...]
> The point I am making is that there are thoughts on my side on what people
> mostly want, despite possible divergences. When proposing such things, I'm
> taking it all into consideration. The general feedback from the facebook
> group (with no negative feedback so far) seems to point to the fact that
> the acceptance is mostly good, as I expected.
As already stated, don't take a FB group as representative. Maybe don't
take this mailing list as representative either, but at least it is open
(sourced) and has an archive that will be accessible forever and doesn't
entrust our communication to a questionable company with a dangerous
monopoly.

Anyway, I would love to see more opinions from others.

cheersz, P



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