Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularlyskippednumbers
> 2) define a way to enter estimated/incomplete interpolation.
> The way to enter incomplete interpolation info could resemble the
> Karlsruhe schema (incomplete_interpolation=* or whatever) or it could be
> combined with a dedicated TIGER addressing scheme as Anthony suggests. I
> don't know anything about TIGER's address data though, so I can't tell
> whether that's a good idea.
TIGER obfuscates the data by declaring the entire numbering range of a
zone: for example a "400 block / Even" containing houses 404 through 420
would be declared as "range Even / 400-498" in TIGER. For navigation
purposes, that gets you to within one block of an address.
I have no problem with the relation that Anthony proposes except that it
seems unnecessary to introduce a new construct to represent the same idea.
One of the use cases for crowdsourcing is to make public announcements to a
region to check the map in their area and make corrections directly or
submit correction requests to "X". Now imagine if they were asked to check
the address relation: "Go into edit mode, check the way the arrows point on
your street, inspect the left / right roles to be sure that the house
numbering is correct". On the other hand, if they see the rendered
obfuscated address numbers on their street, they simply submit or make the
correction directly.
Continuing to use the Karlsruhe schema would cover 3 cases:
{No change} -> represents exact address coverage as defined today.
addr:interpolation_accuracy=estimate -> For surveys that don't collect
missing numbers, or for rapidly changing situations where numbers may be
added or combined often. Would be useful for accurate navigation, but not
useful for the reverse case where someone needs to count addresses on a
street.
addr:interpolation_accuracy=obfuscated -> For TIGER data known to be very
rough. Navigation apps could be aware that accuracy is limited and handle
accordingly.
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Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularlyskipped numbers
Mike N.: > Tobias mentioned a possible tag interpolation:complete=yes to represent > fully accurate address interpolation, which sounds like a simple solution. > If it is necessary to tag estimated address interpolation differently, it > would be good to know before the Tiger address interpolation import begins. That tag I mentioned would only make sense if the addr:interpolation tag's definition didn't already assume completeness. Apparently, however, the tag description is based on that assumption. We can therefore 1) change the definition of addr:interpolation or 2) define a way to enter estimated/incomplete interpolation. Cleanly changing a definition, however, isn't actually possible in OSM (in order to do this, we would need an authority to make the decision, inform mappers and run bot to change existing tags to match the new definition), so we probably need to do 2). The way to enter incomplete interpolation info could resemble the Karlsruhe schema (incomplete_interpolation=* or whatever) or it could be combined with a dedicated TIGER addressing scheme as Anthony suggests. I don't know anything about TIGER's address data though, so I can't tell whether that's a good idea. Tobias Knerr ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularlyskipped numbers
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Mike N. wrote: > There are plans in the US to import Tiger address interpolation > information - which is intentionally obfuscated for privacy reasons by law. > Tobias mentioned a possible tag interpolation:complete=yes to represent > fully accurate address interpolation, which sounds like a simple solution. > If it is necessary to tag estimated address interpolation differently, it > would be good to know before the Tiger address interpolation import begins. The Karlsruhe Schema doesn't fit well with the Tiger data. It makes very little sense to use it for Tiger data. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
On Tue, 13 Oct 2009, Peter Childs wrote: > 100km is the distance from hmm Washington > to Baltimore or London to Oxford (give or take) if your going to only > survey a few points in that distance, Each main road in my area will be easily 70 to 140km in length eg Hay to Balranald is 129km. The population density is certainly not requiring a point every 100m to determine the rural road number, but as it is a mathematical function, it can be defined and used for a routing engine. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009, Cartinus wrote: > > > The only problem then is how to tag the start/end of a numbering > > > section, based on that document major roads are broken up into > > > sections of 100km. > > > > Relation: node for start, node for end, list of ways to connect from > > start to end > > It's probably less work to tag the individual addresses than doing that. Not likely - easier to find the start and end - can do that by pestering the Council which is much easier than trying to survey for street numbers. We haven't ground surveyed these roads yet in many cases but found an end a road name and traced from Landsat ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularlyskipped numbers
I'll have to admit that I haven't been surveying for *missing* numbers - I have been only collecting the beginning and end of each group. A search by address number would yield quite an accurate location. But the reverse case, using my data in the OSM database as a postal mailing address validator would fail. In my mind, having a navigable address would be more useful than nothing, (or in the US, an obfuscated Tiger address). >Actually, I'd say the interpolation is *better* than mapping each >individual store, because the store numbers are going to change, and >14409 might be added, because 14407 splits into two, and if someone >wants driving directions to 14409 they ought to be given an >approximate answer, not told "address does not exist". I would add to this sites with new construction - I can generally tell the entire area of a new subdivision addressing scheme when it is partly complete. I can create an address interpolation way that will not be 100% accurate because it includes empty, future houses, as well as lots that will never contain a house for a number of reasons, however it is useful for navigation long before the commercial companies include it. The existence of an address interpolation way in my mind was a marker that a final survey is needed before creating individual house number nodes. There are plans in the US to import Tiger address interpolation information - which is intentionally obfuscated for privacy reasons by law. Tobias mentioned a possible tag interpolation:complete=yes to represent fully accurate address interpolation, which sounds like a simple solution. If it is necessary to tag estimated address interpolation differently, it would be good to know before the Tiger address interpolation import begins. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Peter Childs wrote: > 2009/10/12 Anthony : >> Surveying a few points every 100km is easier than surveying every >> house. And it's likely that most of the starting/end points will >> already be in the database (e.g. the intersection of X Street and Y >> Street). >> > > If we could get away with only survey 1 point every 100km we would > have already have finished earth some years ago and be onto the next > planet Quite true. > I suspect you will need to survey which houses are nearest each road > junction plus any gaps, I suspect surveying a few points every 100m is > going to be nearer what you need. Need for what? The more survey points, the better. The accuracy gradually gets better and better as more points are added. Eventually you've surveyed every house - sort of: you'll probably never finish (unless all the postal services in the world decide to release their databases into the public domain), because while you were out surveying some more houses popped up. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
2009/10/12 Anthony : > Surveying a few points every 100km is easier than surveying every > house. And it's likely that most of the starting/end points will > already be in the database (e.g. the intersection of X Street and Y > Street). > Most roads won't be 100km long, and the start points will be closest, by road, to a locality. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
2009/10/12 Anthony : > On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 9:02 AM, John Smith wrote: >> 2009/10/12 Anthony : >>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 4:15 AM, John Smith >>> wrote: The only problem then is how to tag the start/end of a numbering section, based on that document major roads are broken up into sections of 100km. >>> >>> Relation: node for start, node for end, list of ways to connect from >>> start to end >>> >> >> mmm, thanks... now to document it... >> > > Not sure if you saw it before, but > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2009-October/38.html > > Is that in agreement with what you'd like to see? > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Cartinus wrote: >> And how are you going to find the start and end of those sections without >> surveying? You won't, not unless you have some external data to import (and >> you didn't mention anything about that). > > Surveying a few points every 100km is easier than surveying every > house. And it's likely that most of the starting/end points will > already be in the database (e.g. the intersection of X Street and Y > Street). > If we could get away with only survey 1 point every 100km we would have already have finished earth some years ago and be onto the next planet I suspect you will need to survey which houses are nearest each road junction plus any gaps, I suspect surveying a few points every 100m is going to be nearer what you need. With or without having code to extrapolate house numbers. 100km is the distance from hmm Washington to Baltimore or London to Oxford (give or take) if your going to only survey a few points in that distance, I think we have more points already in the database. Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 9:02 AM, John Smith wrote: > 2009/10/12 Anthony : >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 4:15 AM, John Smith >> wrote: >>> The only problem then is how to tag the start/end of a numbering >>> section, based on that document major roads are broken up into >>> sections of 100km. >> >> Relation: node for start, node for end, list of ways to connect from >> start to end >> > > mmm, thanks... now to document it... > Not sure if you saw it before, but http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2009-October/38.html Is that in agreement with what you'd like to see? On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Cartinus wrote: > And how are you going to find the start and end of those sections without > surveying? You won't, not unless you have some external data to import (and > you didn't mention anything about that). Surveying a few points every 100km is easier than surveying every house. And it's likely that most of the starting/end points will already be in the database (e.g. the intersection of X Street and Y Street). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
2009/10/12 Cartinus : > And how are you going to find the start and end of those sections without > surveying? You won't, not unless you have some external data to import (and > you didn't mention anything about that). Long sections of highways are an exception rather than the rule, and more likely to be travelled by someone that can fill int he blanks. I was thinking more about most roads in general, which in my experence the start of roads radiate out from localities, so educated guessing can be used for the most part. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
On Monday 12 October 2009 15:02:11 John Smith wrote: > 2009/10/12 Cartinus : > > On Monday 12 October 2009 14:34:42 Anthony wrote: > >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 4:15 AM, John Smith > > > > wrote: > >> > The only problem then is how to tag the start/end of a numbering > >> > section, based on that document major roads are broken up into > >> > sections of 100km. > >> > >> Relation: node for start, node for end, list of ways to connect from > >> start to end > > > > It's probably less work to tag the individual addresses than doing that. > > We don't know individual addresses, not unless we manually survey 100s > of 1000s of km of road ways. And how are you going to find the start and end of those sections without surveying? You won't, not unless you have some external data to import (and you didn't mention anything about that). -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
2009/10/12 Anthony : > On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 4:15 AM, John Smith wrote: >> The only problem then is how to tag the start/end of a numbering >> section, based on that document major roads are broken up into >> sections of 100km. > > Relation: node for start, node for end, list of ways to connect from > start to end > mmm, thanks... now to document it... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
2009/10/12 Cartinus : > On Monday 12 October 2009 14:34:42 Anthony wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 4:15 AM, John Smith > wrote: >> > The only problem then is how to tag the start/end of a numbering >> > section, based on that document major roads are broken up into >> > sections of 100km. >> >> Relation: node for start, node for end, list of ways to connect from >> start to end > > It's probably less work to tag the individual addresses than doing that. We don't know individual addresses, not unless we manually survey 100s of 1000s of km of road ways. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
On Monday 12 October 2009 14:34:42 Anthony wrote: > On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 4:15 AM, John Smith wrote: > > The only problem then is how to tag the start/end of a numbering > > section, based on that document major roads are broken up into > > sections of 100km. > > Relation: node for start, node for end, list of ways to connect from > start to end It's probably less work to tag the individual addresses than doing that. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 4:15 AM, John Smith wrote: > The only problem then is how to tag the start/end of a numbering > section, based on that document major roads are broken up into > sections of 100km. Relation: node for start, node for end, list of ways to connect from start to end ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Google has dual carriage way where it's not built yet
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > 2009/10/10 OJ W : > > multiple plans would overlap each other and look weird? > > look weird where? I guess these would not be rendered in standard maps > (or just in advanced planning phases and for main plans like > motorways, airports, etc.). > > I made a proposal: > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:planned So what's the difference with highway=proposed + proposed=...? I can't seem to find the wiki page, but highway=proposed is already in use and it's rendered in the Mapnik layer. Greetings Ben ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
2009/10/12 Simone Saviolo : > If it's only a problem of routing, wouldn't it be better to let the router > do the job? The way would have to be tagged with something like > "numbering=distance", with the correct orientation (from start to end), and > then it would be easy for a program to find out where #23 is. Exactly, I was just thinking out loud/trying to get some discussion on what tags might be most appropriate and so on. numbering=distance is a little abstract, since US interstate exits are also based on distance, but use miles instead of decametres so it might be better to use a tag that has some reference to the Au/NZ standard. According to the link Liz posted: "These guidelines were subsequently reviewed by Standards Australia and published as an Australian/New Zealand Standard, AS/NZS 4724:2000 Geographic Information – Rural Addressing." So maybe numbering=as/nzs might be better? The only problem then is how to tag the start/end of a numbering section, based on that document major roads are broken up into sections of 100km. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
If it's only a problem of routing, wouldn't it be better to let the router do the job? The way would have to be tagged with something like "numbering=distance", with the correct orientation (from start to end), and then it would be easy for a program to find out where #23 is. 2009/10/11 John Smith > 2009/10/11 SLXViper : > > John Smith wrote: > >> I can't think of a good solution for this, a few years ago they > >> renumbered all properties along roads outside of residential areas to > >> be the distance in decametres (10s of metres, 100m would be #10 etc) > >> from the start of the road, they also have even on the right, odd on > >> the left, this makes it easier for emergency services to find places > >> because its based on distance. > >> > >> I doubt there would be an easy was to interpolate this information for > >> display, but it could be used to work out end points for routing, and > >> all we need to know is which end of a way is the start, the rest can > >> be worked out. > > > > The universal solution for such special cases would be tagging single > > addresses without interpolation. This would provide information > > - what house numbers do actually exist? In this special case nearly > > every value could be possible. > > - where exactly is this house number? Since numbers are based on > > distance this could also be calculated from the given number - but what > > if want to know the house number of a given position? > > The only disadvantage of this method would be a little bit more work "on > > the ground" - but nothing photo mapping couldn't solve ;) > > As I stated, this sort of tagging wouldn't be that useful for > displaying/rendering, but could be used for routing. > > If the routing engine is coded in a smart way, it could be used to > collect the house numbers asked for and use that information to add > street addressing. > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
