Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-19 Thread Peter Körner
andrzej zaborowski schrieb:
> 2009/8/19 Peter Körner :
>> andrzej zaborowski schrieb:
>>> 2009/8/18 Peter Körner :
 Namely they are http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424313867 and
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424317578 which are both
 islands now. By the way i added
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/25342325 (Alderney) which was
 somehow missing.
>>> *poke*
>>> (Montenegro is still missing)
>> It seems there is no node for it. Searching if with the Namefinder doesn't
>> bring up a node. I'd need a node id to add it to the list.
> 
> It's 445970763 as mentioned in
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-August/040327.html
> 
> Cheers

I can confirm that: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/445970763.
I'll add it this evening.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-18 Thread andrzej zaborowski
2009/8/19 Peter Körner :
> andrzej zaborowski schrieb:
>>
>> 2009/8/18 Peter Körner :
>>>
>>> Namely they are http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424313867 and
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424317578 which are both
>>> islands now. By the way i added
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/25342325 (Alderney) which was
>>> somehow missing.
>>
>> *poke*
>> (Montenegro is still missing)
>
> It seems there is no node for it. Searching if with the Namefinder doesn't
> bring up a node. I'd need a node id to add it to the list.

It's 445970763 as mentioned in
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-August/040327.html

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-18 Thread Peter Körner
andrzej zaborowski schrieb:
> 2009/8/18 Peter Körner :
>> Namely they are http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424313867 and
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424317578 which are both
>> islands now. By the way i added
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/25342325 (Alderney) which was
>> somehow missing.
> 
> *poke*
> (Montenegro is still missing)

It seems there is no node for it. Searching if with the Namefinder 
doesn't bring up a node. I'd need a node id to add it to the list.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-18 Thread andrzej zaborowski
2009/8/18 Peter Körner :
> Namely they are http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424313867 and
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424317578 which are both
> islands now. By the way i added
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/25342325 (Alderney) which was
> somehow missing.

*poke*
(Montenegro is still missing)

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-18 Thread Peter Körner
Hi

As I guessed the bug with the >100% comes from countries that aren't 
countries anymore. They are removed from the list with the hourly 
update, but if you got your list open while this happens you can still 
mark it as ok. so we got a country that only exists in this language - 
and more than 100% ok :)

I removed those countries and included a fix in the ajax-script that 
handles the mark-ok-request that checks for the existence of this 
country in the list.

Namely they are http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424313867 and 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424317578 which are both 
islands now. By the way i added 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/25342325 (Alderney) which was 
somehow missing.

The other bug is a hard one. As long as I'm not able to reproduce it, i 
can't fix it.

I'm feeling sorry about having these bug in this tool. It was just an 
experiment, hacked together in three or four nights - so no clear 
structure in the programming nor the database. I know I can do better 
(I'm doing every day at work) but this was my first tool on a 
toolserver, my with first tool working with geo-data and my first tool 
using the osm-api, so please perceive it just as an hacky experiment - 
not fully worked-out tool, and thus be gently with me :)

Just had to say that.

Peter

> 
> I think there was a bug introduced during resorting of the list or 
> during the transition from
> zh-classic -> zh-classical. The list behaves strange. Once I noticed 
> that when i changed a
> country name in one language, the status of the same country name in 
> another language
> changed also. I cannot verify or nail down any bug from remote.
> 
> Please see also the image attached which shows a 100.43% progress for 
> translation of the
> Arabic country names.
> http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/?lang=ar
> 
> It reaches 100% when /Tromelin Island /is set to not-ok.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-18 Thread Peter Körner
Lennard schrieb:
> Peter Körner wrote:
> 
>>> It reaches 100% when /Tromelin Island /is set to not-ok.
> 
> I got Bahasa Indonesia at 229/230 with 2 countries (Tromelin, Turkey) as 
> not ok.
> 

This happened because some countries were degraded to states, so they 
don't show up in the list but are still counted as ok. I'll fix ths as 
soon as i got the time for it :)

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-17 Thread Lennard
Peter Körner wrote:

>> It reaches 100% when /Tromelin Island /is set to not-ok.

I got Bahasa Indonesia at 229/230 with 2 countries (Tromelin, Turkey) as 
not ok.

-- 
Lennard


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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-17 Thread Peter Körner
Thank you for the bug-report, i'll check both bugs soon.

Peter

> I think there was a bug introduced during resorting of the list or 
> during the transition from
> zh-classic -> zh-classical. The list behaves strange. Once I noticed 
> that when i changed a
> country name in one language, the status of the same country name in 
> another language
> changed also. I cannot verify or nail down any bug from remote.
> 
> Please see also the image attached which shows a 100.43% progress for 
> translation of the
> Arabic country names.
> http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/?lang=ar
> 
> It reaches 100% when /Tromelin Island /is set to not-ok.
> 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-17 Thread Micha Ruh
Hi

I think there was a bug introduced during resorting of the list or during
the transition from
zh-classic -> zh-classical. The list behaves strange. Once I noticed that
when i changed a
country name in one language, the status of the same country name in another
language
changed also. I cannot verify or nail down any bug from remote.

Please see also the image attached which shows a 100.43% progress for
translation of the
Arabic country names.
http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/?lang=ar

It reaches 100% when *Tromelin Island *is set to not-ok.

Gruess, Micha
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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-16 Thread andrzej zaborowski
2009/8/16 Jonas Häggqvist :
> That seemed sensible to me also, but now that I think about it, there's a
> significant advantage gained by having the "redundant" name:xx tags. The
> fact that such a tag exists, gives you the confidence to say "someone has
> thought about this, and this positively is the translation". Rather than
> "either this is the same in language xx, or no one has bothered to
> translate". I imagine this difference is important in some cases. For
> example in the Wikipedia case, the presence of a name:xx tag means you can
> be reasonably certain this is the correct name.

The green background (marked OK) on Peter's page is also a good
indicator.  FWIW my personal preference is for leaving the identical
values out.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-16 Thread andrzej zaborowski
2009/8/16 Arlindo Pereira :
> I need some advice: I'm currently translating the names to Portuguese,
> and for some countries the portuguese name differ from the brazilian
> portuguese (which I speak) to the european portuguese. So, should I
> tag, "official_/name:pt=one of the forms" or
> "official_/name:pt=brazilian portuguese name; european portuguese
> name"? Or maybe official_/name:pt_PT and official_/name:pt_BR?

I think I remember someone using @ instead of _ in those OSM language
codes for these kind of differences, I don't remember if that is
"approved" or anything (possibly it was part of this same thread).
But by all means add both forms (either both in name:pt or separate
tags) so that they become searchable.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-16 Thread Peter Körner
Arlindo Pereira schrieb:
> I need some advice: I'm currently translating the names to Portuguese,
> and for some countries the portuguese name differ from the brazilian
> portuguese (which I speak) to the european portuguese. So, should I
> tag, "official_/name:pt=one of the forms" or
> "official_/name:pt=brazilian portuguese name; european portuguese
> name"? Or maybe official_/name:pt_PT and official_/name:pt_BR?
> 
> Cheers,

The list of languages presented is derived from the languages that their 
own wikipedia [1], because that's the most prominent place those 
localized maps will be visible. If you're unsure I'd suggest to use the 
name of the corresponding article in the wikipedia for the language-code 
on the list.

Despite of that feel free to add another tag with the other name. Please 
take a look at [2] and check if there's a language-code for it. Please 
consider also asking at talk-pt [3], although there's not much traffic..

Peter

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:SiteMatrix
[2] http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php
[3] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-pt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-16 Thread Peter Körner
Jonas Häggqvist schrieb:
> Peter Körner wrote:
>> Marc Schütz schrieb:
>>
>>> [Should name:xx equal to name tags stay or not?]
>> In my eyes the rule should be: "If it has a name in language xxx *that
>> differs from it's native name*, then add a name:xxx tag"
> 
> That seemed sensible to me also, but now that I think about it, there's a
> significant advantage gained by having the "redundant" name:xx tags. The
> fact that such a tag exists, gives you the confidence to say "someone has
> thought about this, and this positively is the translation". Rather than
> "either this is the same in language xx, or no one has bothered to
> translate". I imagine this difference is important in some cases. For
> example in the Wikipedia case, the presence of a name:xx tag means you can
> be reasonably certain this is the correct name.
> 
> In some ways, it does feel wrong though, to have all those tags without
> any useful information, but consider that it does have the information
> that someone thought about it and added the tag.

That's the positive point of adding those tags and I'm completely with 
you in this point (i'll call it the "validated translation"-argument, 
but there is one argument I see against it (i'll name it the 
"different-rules"-argument):

thinking the idea of adding name:xx-tags for validating the translations 
down to the city, suburb or street-level makes things look much 
different. Do we want different rules for countries, although the "add 
if it differs" rule could be applied to all of them?

I think to validate translations, an external tool like [1] is much 
better than a tag in the database, because (once the db is updating) 
this tool can and will be expanded to cities, suburbs, POIs and other 
places with a name. Aren't the translation-tags in the wikipedia also 
mainly added by bots - which are external tools, too? Or do you think 
this is a poor comparison?

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-16 Thread John Smith
--- On Mon, 17/8/09, Jonas Häggqvist  wrote:

> In some ways, it does feel wrong though, to have all those
> tags without
> any useful information, but consider that it does have the
> information
> that someone thought about it and added the tag.

I don't see this any differently then if it's tagged wrongly, someone will see 
it at some point and fix it, and this might encourage some that make edits on 
wikipedia to make edits on OSM :)


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-16 Thread Arlindo Pereira
I need some advice: I'm currently translating the names to Portuguese,
and for some countries the portuguese name differ from the brazilian
portuguese (which I speak) to the european portuguese. So, should I
tag, "official_/name:pt=one of the forms" or
"official_/name:pt=brazilian portuguese name; european portuguese
name"? Or maybe official_/name:pt_PT and official_/name:pt_BR?

Cheers,

2009/8/12 Peter Körner :
> Hello OSM folks
>
> For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized
> maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is,
> that a lot of countries are not translated yet.
>
> To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries
> more easy, I created a tool that can be found at
>
>   http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/
>
> I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps
> better. Comments welcome!
>
> Peter
>
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-- 
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Bacharelando em Sistemas de Informação - UNIRIO - uniriotec.br
Consultor de Software Livre da Uniriotec Consultoria - uniriotec.com

Acadêmico: arlindo.pere...@uniriotec.br
Profissional: arlindo.pere...@uniriotec.com
Geral: cont...@arlindopereira.com
Tel.: +5521 92504072
Jabber/Google Talk: nig...@nighto.net
Skype: nighto_sumomo
Chave pública: BD065DEC

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-16 Thread Jonas Häggqvist
Peter Körner wrote:
> Marc Schütz schrieb:
>
>> [Should name:xx equal to name tags stay or not?]
>
> In my eyes the rule should be: "If it has a name in language xxx *that
> differs from it's native name*, then add a name:xxx tag"

That seemed sensible to me also, but now that I think about it, there's a
significant advantage gained by having the "redundant" name:xx tags. The
fact that such a tag exists, gives you the confidence to say "someone has
thought about this, and this positively is the translation". Rather than
"either this is the same in language xx, or no one has bothered to
translate". I imagine this difference is important in some cases. For
example in the Wikipedia case, the presence of a name:xx tag means you can
be reasonably certain this is the correct name.

In some ways, it does feel wrong though, to have all those tags without
any useful information, but consider that it does have the information
that someone thought about it and added the tag.

-- 
Jonas Häggqvist
rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-16 Thread Peter Körner
Marc Schütz schrieb:
>>> Still I think a case could be made for country names to be different:
>> most of them are so prominent that I would say they exist in most languages,
>> even if they are identical to the native names.
>>> For example, the German names for most European countries are different
>> from their native names. However, Portugal happens to have the same name
>> (well, spelling) in German and in Portugese. Would you therefore say, that
>> Portugal doesn't have a German name?
>> It has one, but that's not a translation - rust a repetition. And 
>> name:xx-tags are (in my opinion), basically translation-tags.
>>
>> Nevertheless I don't like different rules for similar things, so i don't 
>> want to have a different "rule" for countries as for cities. It's a rule 
>> in quotation marks, because no one forces you to remove those tags and 
>> if you want to add them for a language, i won't go and delete them.
> 
> Well, the common rule for both cities and countries would then be: "If it has 
> a name in language xxx, then add a name:xxx tag (and don't care if it has the 
> same value as "name"), else leave it."
> 
> Although this basically follows from the "on the ground rule", it would 
> probably be very subjective to decide.
> 
> Anyway, I don't have a strong opinion on this anymore. As you and Martin have 
> pointed out, it will probably make no difference in practice, as "name" will 
> be taken as a fallback.
> 
> Regards, Marc
> 

In my eyes the rule should be: "If it has a name in language xxx *that 
differs from it's native name*, then add a name:xxx tag"

And that what i did it like for German. I don't feel myself in a 
position to publish this rule on the wiki nor on my tool, as long as 
there are no more voices for / against it.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-16 Thread Peter Körner
Maarten Deen schrieb:
> Peter Körner wrote:
>> Hello OSM folks
>>
>> For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized 
>> maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, 
>> that a lot of countries are not translated yet.
>>
>> To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries 
>> more easy, I created a tool that can be found at
>>
>>http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/
>>
>> I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps 
>> better. Comments welcome!
> 
> Some translations show up orange. What does that signify?
> 
> And a typo: endlish -> english
> 
> Regards,
> Maarten
> 

They tell you that the translation in the given language is identical to 
the value of the name=* tag. If you see the name-Tag as a fallback for a 
missing name:xx-tag (what you should), those pseudo-translations are 
needless. I'm currently in a discussion with Marc Schütz (search through 
the mails of the last days) if deleting them is a good or a bad thing.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-16 Thread Maarten Deen
Peter Körner wrote:
> Hello OSM folks
> 
> For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized 
> maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, 
> that a lot of countries are not translated yet.
> 
> To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries 
> more easy, I created a tool that can be found at
> 
>http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/
> 
> I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps 
> better. Comments welcome!

Some translations show up orange. What does that signify?

And a typo: endlish -> english

Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-16 Thread Marc Schütz
> > Still I think a case could be made for country names to be different:
> most of them are so prominent that I would say they exist in most languages,
> even if they are identical to the native names.
> > 
> > For example, the German names for most European countries are different
> from their native names. However, Portugal happens to have the same name
> (well, spelling) in German and in Portugese. Would you therefore say, that
> Portugal doesn't have a German name?
> > 
> It has one, but that's not a translation - rust a repetition. And 
> name:xx-tags are (in my opinion), basically translation-tags.
> 
> Nevertheless I don't like different rules for similar things, so i don't 
> want to have a different "rule" for countries as for cities. It's a rule 
> in quotation marks, because no one forces you to remove those tags and 
> if you want to add them for a language, i won't go and delete them.

Well, the common rule for both cities and countries would then be: "If it has a 
name in language xxx, then add a name:xxx tag (and don't care if it has the 
same value as "name"), else leave it."

Although this basically follows from the "on the ground rule", it would 
probably be very subjective to decide.

Anyway, I don't have a strong opinion on this anymore. As you and Martin have 
pointed out, it will probably make no difference in practice, as "name" will be 
taken as a fallback.

Regards, Marc

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-15 Thread Peter Körner
Marc Schütz schrieb:
>> But this implicates that if there is no different name, no name:xx-tag 
>> should be set (even if it's not *bad* to have one, its also not 
>> *necessary*). Do you agree with that, Marc?
> 
> I was replying in a hurry, and I see now that it is not as easy as I thought 
> it to be. I agree that most objects don't have names in all languages. It 
> would be absurd to add a, say, Inuktitut name to a small street in Budapest, 
> thereby repeating its hungarian name in potentially several thousand 
> languages.
> 
> Still I think a case could be made for country names to be different: most of 
> them are so prominent that I would say they exist in most languages, even if 
> they are identical to the native names.
> 
> For example, the German names for most European countries are different from 
> their native names. However, Portugal happens to have the same name (well, 
> spelling) in German and in Portugese. Would you therefore say, that Portugal 
> doesn't have a German name?
> 
It has one, but that's not a translation - rust a repetition. And 
name:xx-tags are (in my opinion), basically translation-tags.

Nevertheless I don't like different rules for similar things, so i don't 
want to have a different "rule" for countries as for cities. It's a rule 
in quotation marks, because no one forces you to remove those tags and 
if you want to add them for a language, i won't go and delete them.

It's my opinion that they are needless, and if you don't think so i wont 
enforce my opinion on you - just go ahead and add them again :)

All I want to say is that I don't see any benefit from having those 
tags. What you'll do with that, that's your thing :)

Have a nice weekend!

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-15 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am 15. August 2009 11:50 schrieb "Marc Schütz" :
> For example, the German names for most European countries are different from 
> their native names. However, Portugal happens to have the same name (well, 
> spelling) in German and in Portugese. Would you therefore say, that Portugal 
> doesn't have a German name?

I'd say that it is not necessary to put a German name, as the spelling
is equal to the native one. E.g. in Italian it would be necessary
(Portogallo). Why do you want to put duplicates of names if the normal
fallback to "name" will work? It doesn't make sense to me. Not even
for countries. When talking about official names though, it would be
necessary in nearly all cases: (here: República Portuguesa /
Portugiesische Republik)

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-15 Thread Marc Schütz
> But this implicates that if there is no different name, no name:xx-tag 
> should be set (even if it's not *bad* to have one, its also not 
> *necessary*). Do you agree with that, Marc?

I was replying in a hurry, and I see now that it is not as easy as I thought it 
to be. I agree that most objects don't have names in all languages. It would be 
absurd to add a, say, Inuktitut name to a small street in Budapest, thereby 
repeating its hungarian name in potentially several thousand languages.

Still I think a case could be made for country names to be different: most of 
them are so prominent that I would say they exist in most languages, even if 
they are identical to the native names.

For example, the German names for most European countries are different from 
their native names. However, Portugal happens to have the same name (well, 
spelling) in German and in Portugese. Would you therefore say, that Portugal 
doesn't have a German name?

Regards, Marc

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-14 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2009/8/14 Peter Körner :
> Martin Koppenhoefer schrieb:
>> Am 14. August 2009 13:34 schrieb Peter Körner :
>>> I understand your concerns when looking at the country-level, but what
>>> should we do on the city-level? add the name of all cities in all
>>> languages as a translation? Or: what should we do with the languages
>>> that are not covered by wikimedia?
>>
>> yes, as long as there is a translation of a city-name (or other
>> feature, think about "colosseo", "Kolosseum", etc.) different to the
>> name in the local language, we should add the tags in these languages.
>> There is probably also different alt_names for the same feature in
>> different languages (e.g. "flavisches Amphitheater")
>
> But this implicates that if there is no different name, no name:xx-tag
> should be set (even if it's not *bad* to have one, its also not
> *necessary*). Do you agree with that, Marc?

don't know about Marc, but I agree: if there is no different
name/spelling, don't put it.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-14 Thread Peter Körner
Martin Koppenhoefer schrieb:
> Am 14. August 2009 13:34 schrieb Peter Körner :
>> I understand your concerns when looking at the country-level, but what
>> should we do on the city-level? add the name of all cities in all
>> languages as a translation? Or: what should we do with the languages
>> that are not covered by wikimedia?
> 
> yes, as long as there is a translation of a city-name (or other
> feature, think about "colosseo", "Kolosseum", etc.) different to the
> name in the local language, we should add the tags in these languages.
> There is probably also different alt_names for the same feature in
> different languages (e.g. "flavisches Amphitheater")

But this implicates that if there is no different name, no name:xx-tag 
should be set (even if it's not *bad* to have one, its also not 
*necessary*). Do you agree with that, Marc?

This is my opinion and i'm always willing to change it, if there are 
good arguments to do so.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-14 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am 14. August 2009 13:34 schrieb Peter Körner :
> I understand your concerns when looking at the country-level, but what
> should we do on the city-level? add the name of all cities in all
> languages as a translation? Or: what should we do with the languages
> that are not covered by wikimedia?

yes, as long as there is a translation of a city-name (or other
feature, think about "colosseo", "Kolosseum", etc.) different to the
name in the local language, we should add the tags in these languages.
There is probably also different alt_names for the same feature in
different languages (e.g. "flavisches Amphitheater")

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-14 Thread Peter Körner
Marc Schütz schrieb:
>>> What is the opinion for translations that are the same in other
>> languages? For 
>>> instance: Andorra is Andorra in a lot of languages. Do you add a
>> translation 
>>> even though the translation is the same as the original name?
>>>
>>> Maarten
>> No, just mark it as ok. If there's an existing one with an identical 
>> name you may also delete the needless translation.
>>
>> I'll add some highlight to those needless translations, soon.
> 
> No, please don't!
> 
> If you remove them (and I see that you already did that for some countries), 
> there is no way of telling whether the translation is the same as the default 
> name, or is simply missing.
> 

But there is no translation of "Deutschland" to German. So I don't see 
how it could be missing :)

My Tool offers the OK-State do make a difference between "not yet 
checked" and "checked", that is independent of the existance of a 
translation.

I understand your concerns when looking at the country-level, but what 
should we do on the city-level? add the name of all cities in all 
languages as a translation? Or: what should we do with the languages 
that are not covered by wikimedia?

In my eyes name is the tag for the name of this country in it's native 
language (just as it is with cities). name:xx is a language *overlay* 
for a specific language and for a localized map - nothing more.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-14 Thread Marc Schütz
> > What is the opinion for translations that are the same in other
> languages? For 
> > instance: Andorra is Andorra in a lot of languages. Do you add a
> translation 
> > even though the translation is the same as the original name?
> > 
> > Maarten
> 
> No, just mark it as ok. If there's an existing one with an identical 
> name you may also delete the needless translation.
> 
> I'll add some highlight to those needless translations, soon.

No, please don't!

If you remove them (and I see that you already did that for some countries), 
there is no way of telling whether the translation is the same as the default 
name, or is simply missing.

Regards, Marc

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-14 Thread Peter Körner
Micha Ruh schrieb:
> Hallo Peter!
> 
> Ich habe ein paar Übersetzungen mit Hilfe deines sehr gelungenen Tools 
> und Wikipedia erstellt.
> Dabei ist mir bei der Sprache der traditionellen chinesischen 
> Schriftzeichen eine
> Inkonsistenz zwischen Deinem Tool und Wikipedia aufgefallen: Es werden 
> verschiedene Countrycodes verwendet: zh-classical vs. zh-classic
> 
> http://zh-classical.wikipedia.org/
> http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/?lang=zh-classic
> 
> Ich wollte nur Nachfragen ob das so korrekt ist.

For the english ones: he's reporting that my tool took
zh-classic as lang-code, while the wikipedia uses zh-classical. The 
problem is the length of my languagecode-column in mysql -- it's only 10 
chars long.

I changed this to 20 chars and also changed all occurencies of 
zh-classic to zh-classical. I hope that does not bereak too much of the 
tagging..

in deutsch: Die Spalte der MySQL-Tabelle, welche den Sprachcode 
aufnimmt, war nur mit 10 Zeichen dimensionert. Daher wurde der Rest 
abgeschnitten. Ich habe das Limit jetzt auf 20 erhöht und alle Stellen, 
an denen zh-classic stand auf zh-classical geändert. Ich hoffe, dass das 
nicht zu viel kaputt macht..

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-14 Thread Peter Körner
Erik Lundin schrieb:
> I think there's a good point of having the redundancy of name:xx tags 
> even when it is the same as the name tag, because that makes the 
> translated names more safe. For the Swedish translations I saw several 
> names that were marked as OK even though they weren't translated. It's 
> too easy to read through the names and mark them as OK without thinking 
> too much.
> 
> /Erik
> 
> Peter Körner skrev:
>> No, just mark it as ok. If there's an existing one with an identical 
>> name you may also delete the needless translation.
>>
>> I'll add some highlight to those needless translations, soon.

If the base name is changed, all rows relying on this translation are 
marked as not-ok. So if the basename changes in all languages someone 
will have to click "mark ok" again.

I know that it is easy (and it is so by intention!). I believe in the 
iteligence of the crowd.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread andrzej zaborowski
2009/8/14 Erik Lundin :
> I think there's a good point of having the redundancy of name:xx tags
> even when it is the same as the name tag, because that makes the
> translated names more safe. For the Swedish translations I saw several
> names that were marked as OK even though they weren't translated. It's
> too easy to read through the names and mark them as OK without thinking
> too much.

On the other hand, some objects sometimes change names, if your street
has a name=, name:en=, name:es= and 30 other tags all set to the same
value, it'll be really annoying to correct all of them if it's found
to be incorrect. (Fortunately street maps deal with quickly changing
information much less often than e.g. encyclopaedia)

BTW, Peter: Montenegro (Crna Gora) is still missing from the
interface, possibly more countries are.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread Erik Lundin
I think there's a good point of having the redundancy of name:xx tags 
even when it is the same as the name tag, because that makes the 
translated names more safe. For the Swedish translations I saw several 
names that were marked as OK even though they weren't translated. It's 
too easy to read through the names and mark them as OK without thinking 
too much.

/Erik

Peter Körner skrev:
> No, just mark it as ok. If there's an existing one with an identical 
> name you may also delete the needless translation.
> 
> I'll add some highlight to those needless translations, soon.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread Peter Körner
Peter Körner schrieb:
> Hello OSM folks
> 
> For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized 
> maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, 
> that a lot of countries are not translated yet.
> 
> To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries 
> more easy, I created a tool that can be found at
> 
>http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/
> 
> I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps 
> better. Comments welcome!
> 
> Peter

Update:

I added CSV & GPX export and highlights for identical translations (when 
the name:xx-Tag is identical to the name-Tag).

Also I added delete-support to the update-routine so that it should 
delete translations that are no longer in the osm-database. It should 
also delete nodes that are no longer flagged as place=country.

I didn't have the time for intensive testing, so if you encounter any 
unexpected behavior, please just report this here.

Each hour, right before the update, i create an sql-dump, so restoring 
the ok-states should be not too much trouble.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread Peter Körner
Maarten Deen schrieb:
> Peter Körner wrote:
>> Hello OSM folks
>>
>> For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized 
>> maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, 
>> that a lot of countries are not translated yet.
>>
>> To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries 
>> more easy, I created a tool that can be found at
>>
>>http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/
>>
>> I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps 
>> better. Comments welcome!
> 
> What is the opinion for translations that are the same in other languages? 
> For 
> instance: Andorra is Andorra in a lot of languages. Do you add a translation 
> even though the translation is the same as the original name?
> 
> Maarten

No, just mark it as ok. If there's an existing one with an identical 
name you may also delete the needless translation.

I'll add some highlight to those needless translations, soon.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread Maarten Deen
Peter Körner wrote:
> Hello OSM folks
> 
> For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized 
> maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, 
> that a lot of countries are not translated yet.
> 
> To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries 
> more easy, I created a tool that can be found at
> 
>http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/
> 
> I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps 
> better. Comments welcome!

What is the opinion for translations that are the same in other languages? For 
instance: Andorra is Andorra in a lot of languages. Do you add a translation 
even though the translation is the same as the original name?

Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread Peter Körner
andrzej zaborowski schrieb:
> 2009/8/13 Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns :
>> To me it seems standard MIT license. Maybe someone could contact them
>> about country name data import into OSM and ask special permision?
> 
> There are probably more complete sources like the wikipedia page
> titles which the toolserver page even recommends be consulted. 

 > Note
> that country names are just a tiny piece of what you could call
> "multilingual map", plenty of other features have different names in
> different languages
Missing translated country names were the first thing I saw when I 
looked at the translated map-renderings, so this was my starting-point 
to see how translating map-data could be done.

If you got some ideas on what will need translation and how it could be 
accessed, i'll welcome your input and i'll try to build another tool 
from it where not only countries may be translated.

 > and wikipedia has a lot of these already.
> Especially the pages containing infoboxes are easy to parse and have
> structured information. (Not saying they should be used but if you're
> going to make an import, you'd be writing lots of scripts for little
> data)

I'm really unse if bulk-imports would be such a good idea. For me the 
peer-review process as i tried to implement it is a much better approach.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread andrzej zaborowski
2009/8/13 Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns :
> To me it seems standard MIT license. Maybe someone could contact them
> about country name data import into OSM and ask special permision?

There are probably more complete sources like the wikipedia page
titles which the toolserver page even recommends be consulted.  Note
that country names are just a tiny piece of what you could call
"multilingual map", plenty of other features have different names in
different languages and wikipedia has a lot of these already.
Especially the pages containing infoboxes are easy to parse and have
structured information. (Not saying they should be used but if you're
going to make an import, you'd be writing lots of scripts for little
data)

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns
To me it seems standard MIT license. Maybe someone could contact them
about country name data import into OSM and ask special permision?

Lauris

2009/8/13 Tom Hughes :
> On 13/08/09 16:50, Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns wrote:
>>
>> Also unicode CLDR is good source.
>>
>> http://cldr.unicode.org/
>
> My reading of the terms of use says we probably can't use it as it requires
> that the copyright notice remains attached to any copies of the data.
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
> http://www.compton.nu/
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread Tom Hughes
On 13/08/09 16:50, Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns wrote:
> Also unicode CLDR is good source.
>
> http://cldr.unicode.org/

My reading of the terms of use says we probably can't use it as it 
requires that the copyright notice remains attached to any copies of the 
data.

Tom

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http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread Peter Körner
Jonas Häggqvist schrieb:
> Peter Körner wrote:
>> Hello OSM folks
>>
>> For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized 
>> maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, 
>> that a lot of countries are not translated yet.
> 
> If you need help translating country names for your language and Wikipedia
> doesn't have the information, Debian maintains a set of translations for
> the countries in ISO 3166[1] which might be useful. The source [2] can be
> downloaded. Unpack it (using either standard UNIX tools, or something like
> 7-zip[3] if  you're on Windows) and look inside the iso3166 directory and
> open the file "xx.po" in a text editor, where xx is the two-letter
> language code for your language.
> 
> [1] 
> [2]
> 
> [3] 

Hum, is this data good enough for an import? Although it's always better 
to let people check the information.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns
To be more explicit see this link:
http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/main/

Lauris

2009/8/13 Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns :
> Also unicode CLDR is good source.
>
> http://cldr.unicode.org/
>
> Lauris
>
> 2009/8/13 Jonas Häggqvist :
>> Peter Körner wrote:
>>> Hello OSM folks
>>>
>>> For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized
>>> maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is,
>>> that a lot of countries are not translated yet.
>>
>> If you need help translating country names for your language and Wikipedia
>> doesn't have the information, Debian maintains a set of translations for
>> the countries in ISO 3166[1] which might be useful. The source [2] can be
>> downloaded. Unpack it (using either standard UNIX tools, or something like
>> 7-zip[3] if  you're on Windows) and look inside the iso3166 directory and
>> open the file "xx.po" in a text editor, where xx is the two-letter
>> language code for your language.
>>
>> [1] 
>> [2]
>> 
>> [3] 
>> --
>> Jonas Häggqvist
>> rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk
>>
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>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns
Also unicode CLDR is good source.

http://cldr.unicode.org/

Lauris

2009/8/13 Jonas Häggqvist :
> Peter Körner wrote:
>> Hello OSM folks
>>
>> For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized
>> maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is,
>> that a lot of countries are not translated yet.
>
> If you need help translating country names for your language and Wikipedia
> doesn't have the information, Debian maintains a set of translations for
> the countries in ISO 3166[1] which might be useful. The source [2] can be
> downloaded. Unpack it (using either standard UNIX tools, or something like
> 7-zip[3] if  you're on Windows) and look inside the iso3166 directory and
> open the file "xx.po" in a text editor, where xx is the two-letter
> language code for your language.
>
> [1] 
> [2]
> 
> [3] 
> --
> Jonas Häggqvist
> rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk
>
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread Jonas Häggqvist
Peter Körner wrote:
> Hello OSM folks
> 
> For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized 
> maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, 
> that a lot of countries are not translated yet.

If you need help translating country names for your language and Wikipedia
doesn't have the information, Debian maintains a set of translations for
the countries in ISO 3166[1] which might be useful. The source [2] can be
downloaded. Unpack it (using either standard UNIX tools, or something like
7-zip[3] if  you're on Windows) and look inside the iso3166 directory and
open the file "xx.po" in a text editor, where xx is the two-letter
language code for your language.

[1] 
[2]

[3] 
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread Peter Körner
Maarten Deen schrieb:
> Peter Körner wrote:
>> Hello OSM folks
>>
>> For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized
>> maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is,
>> that a lot of countries are not translated yet.
>>
>> To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries
>> more easy, I created a tool that can be found at
>>
>>http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/
>>
>> I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps
>> better. Comments welcome!
> 
> Potlatch is written as Potlatch, not as Postlatch. And maybe it's easier if
> the list country is sorted alphabeticaly as well.
> 
> And a tip for people wanting to translate: enter the English name in
> en.wikipedia.org and just click on the appropriate link in the other language
> of choice.
> 
> Regards,
> Maarten

Potlatch, yes.. I changed it.

The language list (that's what i think you're talking about) is already 
sorted by the code of the language. I changed this to sorting by name 
but it still got problems with lowercase-names, but i think it's ok for 
the moment.

That's why the wiki (en) button is there. I'll check if i could make an 
automatic process aut of this (go to en-wiki & change language in on click).

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-13 Thread Peter Körner
Jonas Häggqvist schrieb:
> Peter Körner wrote:
>> To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries 
>> more easy, I created a tool that can be found at
>>
>>http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/
> 
> Useful. Will the page invalidate translations if the "base" name is changed?
> 

if a base translation changes, all virtual (nonexistant) translations 
will be invalid. Please be aware that there are cases, that are not 
covered (yet) by the updater, e.g. when a translation is removed.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-12 Thread Maarten Deen
Peter Körner wrote:
> Hello OSM folks
>
> For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized
> maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is,
> that a lot of countries are not translated yet.
>
> To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries
> more easy, I created a tool that can be found at
>
>http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/
>
> I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps
> better. Comments welcome!

Potlatch is written as Potlatch, not as Postlatch. And maybe it's easier if
the list country is sorted alphabeticaly as well.

And a tip for people wanting to translate: enter the English name in
en.wikipedia.org and just click on the appropriate link in the other language
of choice.

Regards,
Maarten



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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-12 Thread andrzej zaborowski
2009/8/13 Peter Körner :
> To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries
> more easy, I created a tool that can be found at
>
>   http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/
>
> I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps
> better. Comments welcome!

Montenegro is still missing from the list of countries, its node id is
445970763 and I only added it about two weeks ago because I noticed it
was missing when adding some tags to all the countries.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/445970763

The instructions at the top of the pages could also mention the
official_name:* tags - I don't know if these are approved in any way
but I found they were on some of the nodes and I thought it was a good
idea to propagate these too where the full name differs from the
normal name the country is known by (which could otherwise be placed
in loc_name, but it should probably be the one displayed by default)

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-12 Thread Jonas Häggqvist
Peter Körner wrote:
> To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries 
> more easy, I created a tool that can be found at
> 
>http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/

Useful. Will the page invalidate translations if the "base" name is changed?

-- 
Jonas Häggqvist
rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk

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