Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
Hi Kevin, Am Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:55:40 -0700 schrieb Kevin Fries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 12:03 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > > I think you misunderstand my point. > > No I got it. And I think that that thinking is wrong and dangerous to > Linux in general, and Ubuntu in specific. > > > > > My concern is the idea that "because a user said they want it" is a > > meaninful metric in a largely volunteer project. In Free software > > projects, the meaningful metric for what gets done is what the > > people doing the work think needs doing (and this applies to all > > types of work, not just development, in the project). Volunteers > > can't be ordered. They have to be convinced. > > If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it. I buy my steak from > elsewhere. Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in > ego. What the customer wants is the only real metric. You need to > understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a > Consultant, Designer, and Implementer. The World is split into two groups: 1. OpenSource Developer who are working in companies like Novell, Canonical, RedHat, Sun etc. They are paid to work 8 or more hours on dealing with the users needs. 2. Volunteers, who are working in other businesses, have other priorities. Daily Work, Family, Friends, ..., OpenSource Development. So, there is a difference, and Scott is totally right, when he says, Volunteers needs to be convinced. Users != Customers. Customers are companies and people, who are buying Support Contracts. Those Customers are handled by the First Group. But Ricky Smith, who doesn't pay a penny, but wants something, is not a customer, but someone who could convince me or Scott to fix or prepare software for him. (Which I wouldn't do, honestly) > Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely > your own decision. But the customer MUST set the priorities of what > needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list > of features that need to be implemented. So, Kevin, Pay For It. You can send us money, for doing work on what you want. Price per Hour starts at 150 Euros (without local tax). Private People like Scott or I are not in this Customer Business, that's Canonical (for Ubuntu) or other paid people in other OpenSource Companies. > Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you. It's not our business, it's our hobby, that's the difference between let's say Alan Cox (who is working for hard bucks on the Kernel) and Ricky Smith, who is sending in kernel patches, because he is interessted to fix stuff and because it's his hobby. > > If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your > priority list, your competition will. As I said, pay us then :) > > Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real > business. Therefore, its not about you... or me. Its about the > customer. Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into > something, is just not good business. This is why I spend so many > hours providing help to ANYONE who asks. Even people I would rather > not. Its not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the > project. Ubuntu is just pool/main and pool/restricted which is mostly maintained by Canonical from paid developers. Which is good. pool/universe and pool/multiverse is community driven. Fixed, Maintained and handled by people who are not being paid by any company to do this work. > > Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the > door. Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos. We > as the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the > customer so that there will be more of them. Its the one true > advantage we have over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off > their customer to do what is in their best interest (Can we say > Windows Genuine Advantage, or Digital Rights Management... I knew we > could). Well, it's all about egos, developers are really difficult people sometimes. Without an ego you can't kick someones ass, to work on things. That's business. NO Ego, no social competence, no ass in your pants, you lose. That's why opensource is special, and not only opensource. That's why Jono wrote last time about "RockStars for OpenSource"...you need stars, you need assholes. > You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you > place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you > really helping? Well, you really got the point. OpenSource is Business, Business means being paid, so if you want something, please pay us people, who are dealing with software in our sparetime. Without money, no developer can live, but TBH, if this would be the usual case, most of the developers would only work for only about 8 hours on their software, and then they are leaving the office, going home to their families...and then you have, yes, the MS way. Res
Re: [Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
On Thursday 06 December 2007 16:58, Richard A. Johnson wrote: > Scott, I do have a problem with the document you linked to about asking > smart questions. Most of the answers I have seen in there are stupid > answers or stupid solutions. I was always raised with the idea that there > isn't a such thing as a stupid question, and I believe that. Just because > most of us know to Google this or that, or know how to find solutions, that > doesn't mean that every Tom, Dick, and Harry does. I have a professor who > has multiple degrees (Bachelors (couple of them), Masters (up there with > those too), and PhDs), yet he asks his students for help researching > information online because he isn't as savvy as some of the students, that > doesn't make any of his questions stupid. I say burn that smart questions > document, as it is obviously from the 90s with the "STFW" and "RTFM" type > assessments. Its a miracle that the community has survived through all of > that stuff and not driven more people away. http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html is probably poorly titled. His definition of smart is questions that geeks will be interested in answering. It's not about smart or stupid questions, but getting people excited about helping you (this gets back to the how do you motivate volunteers question). Some people are good at hand holding new people through their initial baby steps with Linux (or anything). Others are not. I still do user support on #ubuntu-server and the ubuntu-server ML and while I don't tell people to STFW or RTFM, I do tend to ignore questions that would require me to do some research unless: 1. They are interesting to me. 2. I have some hint that the asker has at least tried to solve the problem themself first. I'm long past thinking I can or should try to solve everyone's problems in the world, so I pick and choose. That document is about getting people to choose your question to answer. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: [Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
RESENDING MY ORIGINAL POST TO THE LIST. This way Kevin doesn't blasted because of my comments :) On Thursday 06 December 2007, Kevin Fries wrote: [...] | If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it. I buy my steak from | elsewhere. Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in | ego. What the customer wants is the only real metric. You need to | understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a | Consultant, Designer, and Implementer. | | Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely | your own decision. But the customer MUST set the priorities of what | needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list of | features that need to be implemented. I couldn't agree with you more! | Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you. Actually, this wouldn't be Rule #1, but it is pretty much the Golden Rule of Business. Mark Cuban said it best a few years back, "Treat your customers like they own you, because they do." The hard part with this though in our little neck of the woods is that all of us are also customers, so it can get confusing. | If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your priority | list, your competition will. And they are (ie. PCLinuxOS, Fedora). | Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real | business. Therefore, its not about you... or me. Its about the | customer. Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into | something, is just not good business. This is why I spend so many hours | providing help to ANYONE who asks. Even people I would rather not. Its | not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the project. It was all fine and dandy until this paragraph. This is the one thing that really could irk a volunteer to such a project. I have been around this community for a couple of years now and talking to some past developers and contributors, the one thing that was common was that "we are working for free while they are making money from our work." I look at it like this..Kubuntu is giving me more than I could ever give it. How? 1) I have a totally free operating system 2) I don't have to worry about all the other things I would have to with that other OS 3) The development community allows me to participate in which I get to learn the ins-and-outs of what really goes on (after a while, this is a nice CV bullet point) 4) The friends I have made in the process are totally worth every minute I have put in. | Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the | door. Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos. We as | the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the customer | so that there will be more of them. Its the one true advantage we have | over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off their customer to do | what is in their best interest (Can we say Windows Genuine Advantage, or | Digital Rights Management... I knew we could). I am 50/50 on this paragraph. I wholeheartedly believe there should be the "checking the ego at the door," however a little bit of ego never hurt anybody. For instance, look at Microsoft. They have the biggest ego of all, and they have yet to really fail at what they do. Going on with Microsoft, they do indeed listen to their customers, just because we don't see it simply because we are not their customers, doesn't mean they don't. If they didn't listen, would they really be as big as they are? I mean Apple and other operating systems have been around just as long. Imagine if the Linux community would have really listened to the complaints in the 90s, I think we would then be further than we are today. In our eyes, yes we do have a true advantage over Microsoft, but to the billions of Microsoft users out there, they laugh at that advantage. | You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you | place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you | really helping? Very true, but one thing I have noticed from doing so is this: 1) Linux isn't gaining the ground with proprietary vendors. Why? because most distros have listened totally to the customer and have provided them with the proprietary solutions. This isn't helping in my opinion. And the one thing that really sucks with these proprietary solutions, we can't help/support the users when problems occur. The only thing we can do is say "oh well, that is what you get when using proprietary stuff, we can't help you, ask . The great thing about Linux is its scalability. It can pretty much be adapted to most environments. Providing proprietary solutions to the end user isn't doing anything for the cause, and is actually making us look like another Microsoft. We are starting to provide some of the same proprietary solutions (mainly drivers and codecs) to make the customer happy, and by doing this the majority of distro developers aren't aimin
Re: [Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
On Thursday 06 December 2007, Kevin Fries wrote: | This was sent to me personally, and it has comments directed to others | in the group... Therefore, I assume it was meant for the group at large. Thanks Kevin, sorry about that. I must have hit the wrong reply button. -- Richard A. Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG Key: 0x2E2C0124 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: [Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
Sarah Hobbs wrote the following on 06.12.2007 12:47 > According to [2], the point of contact for users to get in touch with > developers is ubuntu-devel-discuss. > That being said, there are a number of developers who choose not to read > this list, for various reasons. one contradict the other?! > Hobbsee > > [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelModeration bye -- Thilo key: 0x4A411E09 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: [Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
Hi All, I think this thread has gotten way off topic. Can somebody in charge flag this thread as a "dead horse" [1] ? I think there is some good discussion going on, but those discussions should be taken to new, fresh threads. I do think that in order to post to lists intended for developers to read you should follow some of the guidelines in articles such as [2], do some research and show that you can at least think clearly. (I think I should have followed these rules better before posting... I don't even know if the question was really answered anyway, other than pointing at the guidelines, which I did read before posting at least.) I don't really think this thread should continue as it is. Let the developers and moderators get back to real work. Thanks, Todd [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_a_dead_horse [2] http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html On Dec 6, 2007 4:05 PM, Kevin Fries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This was sent to me personally, and it has comments directed to others > in the group... Therefore, I assume it was meant for the group at large. > > Kevin Fries > Forwarded Message > From: Richard A. Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince > crash) > Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:54:45 -0600 > > On Thursday 06 December 2007, Kevin Fries wrote: > [...] > | If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it. I buy my steak from > | elsewhere. Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in > | ego. What the customer wants is the only real metric. You need to > | understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a > | Consultant, Designer, and Implementer. > | > | Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely > | your own decision. But the customer MUST set the priorities of what > | needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list of > | features that need to be implemented. > > I couldn't agree with you more! > > | Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you. > > Actually, this wouldn't be Rule #1, but it is pretty much the Golden Rule of > Business. Mark Cuban said it best a few years back, "Treat your customers > like they own you, because they do." The hard part with this though in our > little neck of the woods is that all of us are also customers, so it can get > confusing. > > | If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your priority > | list, your competition will. > > And they are (ie. PCLinuxOS, Fedora). > > | Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real > | business. Therefore, its not about you... or me. Its about the > | customer. Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into > | something, is just not good business. This is why I spend so many hours > | providing help to ANYONE who asks. Even people I would rather not. Its > | not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the project. > > It was all fine and dandy until this paragraph. This is the one thing that > really could irk a volunteer to such a project. I have been around this > community for a couple of years now and talking to some past developers and > contributors, the one thing that was common was that "we are working for free > while they are making money from our work." I look at it like this..Kubuntu > is giving me more than I could ever give it. How? > > 1) I have a totally free operating system > 2) I don't have to worry about all the other things I would have to with that > other OS > 3) The development community allows me to participate in which I get to learn > the ins-and-outs of what really goes on (after a while, this is a nice CV > bullet point) > 4) The friends I have made in the process are totally worth every minute I > have put in. > > | Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the > | door. Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos. We as > | the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the customer > | so that there will be more of them. Its the one true advantage we have > | over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off their customer to do > | what is in their best interest (Can we say Windows Genuine Advantage, or > | Digital Rights Management... I knew we could). > > I am 50/50 on this paragraph. I wholeheartedly believe there should be > the "checking the ego at the door," however a little bit of ego never hurt > anybody. For instance, look at Microsoft. They have the biggest ego of all, > and they have yet to really fail at what they do. Going
[Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
This was sent to me personally, and it has comments directed to others in the group... Therefore, I assume it was meant for the group at large. Kevin Fries Forwarded Message From: Richard A. Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:54:45 -0600 On Thursday 06 December 2007, Kevin Fries wrote: [...] | If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it. I buy my steak from | elsewhere. Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in | ego. What the customer wants is the only real metric. You need to | understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a | Consultant, Designer, and Implementer. | | Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely | your own decision. But the customer MUST set the priorities of what | needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list of | features that need to be implemented. I couldn't agree with you more! | Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you. Actually, this wouldn't be Rule #1, but it is pretty much the Golden Rule of Business. Mark Cuban said it best a few years back, "Treat your customers like they own you, because they do." The hard part with this though in our little neck of the woods is that all of us are also customers, so it can get confusing. | If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your priority | list, your competition will. And they are (ie. PCLinuxOS, Fedora). | Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real | business. Therefore, its not about you... or me. Its about the | customer. Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into | something, is just not good business. This is why I spend so many hours | providing help to ANYONE who asks. Even people I would rather not. Its | not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the project. It was all fine and dandy until this paragraph. This is the one thing that really could irk a volunteer to such a project. I have been around this community for a couple of years now and talking to some past developers and contributors, the one thing that was common was that "we are working for free while they are making money from our work." I look at it like this..Kubuntu is giving me more than I could ever give it. How? 1) I have a totally free operating system 2) I don't have to worry about all the other things I would have to with that other OS 3) The development community allows me to participate in which I get to learn the ins-and-outs of what really goes on (after a while, this is a nice CV bullet point) 4) The friends I have made in the process are totally worth every minute I have put in. | Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the | door. Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos. We as | the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the customer | so that there will be more of them. Its the one true advantage we have | over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off their customer to do | what is in their best interest (Can we say Windows Genuine Advantage, or | Digital Rights Management... I knew we could). I am 50/50 on this paragraph. I wholeheartedly believe there should be the "checking the ego at the door," however a little bit of ego never hurt anybody. For instance, look at Microsoft. They have the biggest ego of all, and they have yet to really fail at what they do. Going on with Microsoft, they do indeed listen to their customers, just because we don't see it simply because we are not their customers, doesn't mean they don't. If they didn't listen, would they really be as big as they are? I mean Apple and other operating systems have been around just as long. Imagine if the Linux community would have really listened to the complaints in the 90s, I think we would then be further than we are today. In our eyes, yes we do have a true advantage over Microsoft, but to the billions of Microsoft users out there, they laugh at that advantage. | You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you | place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you | really helping? Very true, but one thing I have noticed from doing so is this: 1) Linux isn't gaining the ground with proprietary vendors. Why? because most distros have listened totally to the customer and have provided them with the proprietary solutions. This isn't helping in my opinion. And the one thing that really sucks with these proprietary solutions, we can't help/support the users when problems occur. The only thing we can do is say "oh well, that is what you get when using proprietary stuff, we can't help you, ask . T
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 11:55:40AM -0700, Kevin Fries wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 12:03 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > > I think you misunderstand my point. > > No I got it. And I think that that thinking is wrong and dangerous to > Linux in general, and Ubuntu in specific. Kevin - howdy! I know you're doing cool stuff for Ubuntu and the market, and you bring some good business perspectives to Ubuntu as a product. And I want Ubuntu to be a great product! But Ubuntu is more than that. Please recognize that there are many different sorts of people involved in Ubuntu, and respect everyone's right to do what they feel called to do. Scott speaks for many of us who are not paid. In fact seminal essays on Free Software sociology have demonstrated that this is not an uncommon position - the old "scratching an itch" motivation. Telling people who you're not paying what to do using inflamatory language is just not very helpful IMHO :-) > > My concern is the idea that "because a user said they want it" is > > a meaninful metric in a largely volunteer project. In Free > > software projects, the meaningful metric for what gets done is > > what the people doing the work think needs doing (and this applies > > to all types of work, not just development, in the project). > > Volunteers can't be ordered. They have to be convinced. > If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it. I buy my steak from > elsewhere. Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in > ego. What the customer wants is the only real metric. You need to > understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a > Consultant, Designer, and Implementer. You can indeed pay someone to do work related to Ubuntu, just like in the commercial software world. You can pay Canonical, or another Ubuntu support firm, or folks that do upstream development, or vendors that sell software or hardware that runs on Ubuntu. And then you get to specify what you'll pay for. But Ubuntu is MORE than a commercial project. It is also a rich, diverse community of contributors. Some developers, some writers some bug triagers, etc etc. They contribute in ways that are very different from the way the business world works. And we benefit in wonderful and unexpected ways from the diversity of their motivations. I agree that excellent attention to customers is hugely important to bug #1. But [gasp] not everyone is doing this because of bug #1. Some are just having fun, and still contributing in excellent ways. Free software projects flourish when everyone is respected for how they want to contribute. > Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely > your own decision. But the customer MUST set the priorities of what > needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list of > features that need to be implemented. > > Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you. > > If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your priority > list, your competition will. For the folks that are paid, right on. For the volunteers - maybe that isn't what floats their boat. Let them choose how to contribute. Remember, they're letting YOU choose how to leverage the result of their work, after all. That is part of the magic of free software. > Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real > business. Therefore, its not about you... or me. Its about the > customer. Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into > something, is just not good business. This is why I spend so many hours > providing help to ANYONE who asks. Even people I would rather not. Its > not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the project. > > Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the > door. Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos. We as > the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the customer > so that there will be more of them. Its the one true advantage we have > over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off their customer to do > what is in their best interest (Can we say Windows Genuine Advantage, or > Digital Rights Management... I knew we could). Right on about checking egos at the door. And I think ego is all about telling someone else how to do something. So I delight in your energy and way of contributing to the Ubuntu ecosystem. But recognize that there is more than one way, and that is to our benefit, and please don't project your views onto others. > You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you > place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you > really helping? This conversation started off (in October!) with a non-developer trying to find out if a post to the list about a "favorite bug" was appropriate. Unfortunately we've now regressed into a non-so-pretty internal argument. What an inappropriate waste!! In summary I think we will make a
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
There are some really strong arguments being put forth in this thread. I think I can understand how all the participates feel. I think there is a developer-user disconnect and I tried to touch on this in my long winded "best foot forward" thread. That being said I have contributed absolutely nothing and I am in no position to complain. Perhaps the problem here is that people should get paid and if they are getting paid they should listen more closely to what the end user needs. I don't have a lot of money. I just have a small business selling used lab instruments but I have lots of opportunities on the horizon. However I know there is a vast financial opportunity in front of me that I cannot capitalize on fast enough. There are millions of dollars to be made in instrument control software. I am so short on time with basic survival stuff that I cannot reach my goal. Would anyone be interested in creating an "Ubuntu entrepreneur list"?? If we could help each other out maybe we could actually make money and pay people to make the modifications we want. Just a thought-Patrick Cory K. wrote: > Kevin Fries wrote: > >> You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you >> place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you >> really helping? >> > > *IF* I were paid I would agree. What it comes down to with many of us is > we find a niche we care about and work on that. That work benefits users > of those packages. > > What this touches on for me is my long-time feeling that for Ubuntu to > continue to be sustainable many more of us need to be paid > maintainers/developers. There's a list of at least 10 people I know that > should be paid to maintain Universe. Until that or something like it > happens Kevin, you simple can't demand the types of things you suggest > from people. > > Also this is a conversation (like many) that just doesn't work on a ML. > > > -Cory \m/ (Ubuntu Studio lead) > > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
Kevin Fries wrote: > You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you > place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you > really helping? *IF* I were paid I would agree. What it comes down to with many of us is we find a niche we care about and work on that. That work benefits users of those packages. What this touches on for me is my long-time feeling that for Ubuntu to continue to be sustainable many more of us need to be paid maintainers/developers. There's a list of at least 10 people I know that should be paid to maintain Universe. Until that or something like it happens Kevin, you simple can't demand the types of things you suggest from people. Also this is a conversation (like many) that just doesn't work on a ML. -Cory \m/ (Ubuntu Studio lead) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 12:03 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > I think you misunderstand my point. No I got it. And I think that that thinking is wrong and dangerous to Linux in general, and Ubuntu in specific. > My concern is the idea that "because a user said they want it" is a meaninful > metric in a largely volunteer project. In Free software projects, the > meaningful metric for what gets done is what the people doing the work think > needs doing (and this applies to all types of work, not just development, in > the project). Volunteers can't be ordered. They have to be convinced. If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it. I buy my steak from elsewhere. Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in ego. What the customer wants is the only real metric. You need to understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a Consultant, Designer, and Implementer. Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely your own decision. But the customer MUST set the priorities of what needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list of features that need to be implemented. Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you. If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your priority list, your competition will. Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real business. Therefore, its not about you... or me. Its about the customer. Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into something, is just not good business. This is why I spend so many hours providing help to ANYONE who asks. Even people I would rather not. Its not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the project. Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the door. Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos. We as the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the customer so that there will be more of them. Its the one true advantage we have over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off their customer to do what is in their best interest (Can we say Windows Genuine Advantage, or Digital Rights Management... I knew we could). You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you really helping? -- Kevin Fries Senior Linux Engineer Computer and Communications Technology, Inc A Division of Japan Communications Inc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Thursday 06 December 2007 11:36, Kevin Fries wrote: > On Wed, 2007-12-05 at 22:13 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > > For those of us who are volunteers (most of us), the compromise is > > someone has to convince me it's worth my time to bother. So I'd say > > the other way around. The users who want volunteers to actually do > > free work for them need to be convincing why I should be bothered > > (hint: threatening to switch back to Windows doesn't motivate me at > > all). > > If you need motivation from external sources, then maybe you are > misdirecting your efforts. I am not trying to be mean here, but I use > and advocate Linux for many reasons. Nobody has to motivate me to do > so. I do so because I believe in the platform, and I want it to > succeed. I want it to succeed for selfish as well as altruistic > reasons. Many unpaid hours are spent helping someone get started, not > because I need to be convinced to do so. I do so because I want Ubuntu > to succeed, I want Linux to succeed. And I am not alone. Many of the > local Colorado Local Group, are looking for ways to provide help desks > to noobs, to get more CDs out, or even get cards out pointing the > uninitiated to online resources. None of them are paid either. Nor do > any of them need to be convinced to do so. They do so for the same > reason I do... Because it is what is needed to be done. > > There seems to be this growing trend in the Ubuntu community lately, and > I am pretty sure that it is an all bad thing. The developers, not all > but a growing number, seem to think Ubuntu is their baby. The sweat of > their brow, and therefore, only successful because of what they do. > While I will be the first to say that these voices are still the great > minority, they are getting louder. And diminish the fantastic work done > by so many. I think you misunderstand my point. I don't need external motivation to work on Linux. I have my own for my own reasons. My point is that I have limited time for development work and that if someone else wants me to spend that time on what they perceive as a problem, they need to convince me it's a worthwhile investment of my time (compared to what I would have otherwise done). As you said, there are many ways to contribute and they are all needed. My concern is the idea that "because a user said they want it" is a meaninful metric in a largely volunteer project. In Free software projects, the meaningful metric for what gets done is what the people doing the work think needs doing (and this applies to all types of work, not just development, in the project). Volunteers can't be ordered. They have to be convinced. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Wed, 2007-12-05 at 22:13 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > For those of us who are volunteers (most of us), the compromise is > someone has to convince me it's worth my time to bother. So I'd say > the other way around. The users who want volunteers to actually do > free work for them need to be convincing why I should be bothered > (hint: threatening to switch back to Windows doesn't motivate me at > all). If you need motivation from external sources, then maybe you are misdirecting your efforts. I am not trying to be mean here, but I use and advocate Linux for many reasons. Nobody has to motivate me to do so. I do so because I believe in the platform, and I want it to succeed. I want it to succeed for selfish as well as altruistic reasons. Many unpaid hours are spent helping someone get started, not because I need to be convinced to do so. I do so because I want Ubuntu to succeed, I want Linux to succeed. And I am not alone. Many of the local Colorado Local Group, are looking for ways to provide help desks to noobs, to get more CDs out, or even get cards out pointing the uninitiated to online resources. None of them are paid either. Nor do any of them need to be convinced to do so. They do so for the same reason I do... Because it is what is needed to be done. There seems to be this growing trend in the Ubuntu community lately, and I am pretty sure that it is an all bad thing. The developers, not all but a growing number, seem to think Ubuntu is their baby. The sweat of their brow, and therefore, only successful because of what they do. While I will be the first to say that these voices are still the great minority, they are getting louder. And diminish the fantastic work done by so many. There are many ways to contribute to a project such as Ubuntu. I have offered programming skills, and was treated quite rudely buy certain members of the programming community. They were extremely territorial and condescending towards my efforts. I have since decided to focus my efforts elsewhere. The comments above are exactly the attitude we need to guard against. In my current day job, I design state of the art hand-held computerized devices. Because of my advocacy here, fewer and fewer of those machines are being considered for Windows Mobile. Because of my efforts here, Windows Mobile is no longer mentioned when new projects come up. That takes my faith in the project, and the developers ability to deliver that project. Without the developers, my faith is misplaced. Without my advocacy, the developers efforts are purely academic. I am no more, or no less important than the developer, and I expect to be treated with the same respect. Not looked down upon so some developer can find motivation. In addition to my day job, I am getting a business off the ground. This business is designed to bring real, solid, Linux based networking solutions to the small and medium-small based business. A market segment that Linux has not had much success with in the past, and Microsoft is pandering to. Bringing Linux to a brand new market segment is not easy. However, I think by doing so, I can build a successful business, allow small businesses to better compete, and advance the Linux and Ubuntu cause. But I do not degrade the efforts of others to justify why I do this. Eau contraire mon frer, I praise them. For if it was not for all that they do, I could not concentrate on resolving the businesses issues. I know that not everybody on this board is American, but one thing that every American child learns in history class is in regards to the American Civil War. The north finally prevailed with a tactic of divide and conquer. We learn the slogan "United we stand, divided we fall" quoted by Thomas Jefferson (attributed as far back as Aesop). And Abraham Lincoln's paraphrase of that statement "A house divided against itself cannot stand" (one of the great speeches of all time). Ubuntu is strong when we all listen to each other, give each other respect, and stop trying to claim that my problems are more important than your problems. EVERYONE, end user, advocate, consultant, developer, or even the businessperson that uses Linux for his/her operating system of choice, is in this together. Or else, we can tear each other apart. It is time to come together, shut our mouths, and listen to the other sides. It is time to do this so that all of our efforts can be maximized, and focused on the common good. It time to stop using the word me (also meant in the metamorphic sense such as end user, or developer) and start using the word us. Thats just my $0.02 -- Kevin Fries Senior Linux Engineer Computer and Communications Technology, Inc A Division of Japan Communications Inc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: [Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
Blaise Alleyne wrote: > True, but there's the additional question - is this the appropriate > place for that sort of discussion? In other words, sure, the developers > need a place to discuss things free from the mob, but the mob also > needs to be able to participate and voice their concerns/approval. > > But which is ubuntu-devel-discuss supposed to be for? > > According to the list description [1], it does seem to be the appropriate > forum for users to get in touch with developers. Though it doesn't appear > to be an appropriate place to try and draw attention to bugs on Launchpad. > If that's the case, maybe it should be stated more clearly. > > [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-devel-discuss > > According to [2], the point of contact for users to get in touch with developers is ubuntu-devel-discuss. For discussions between developers, away from the mob, there is [EMAIL PROTECTED] That being said, there are a number of developers who choose not to read this list, for various reasons. Hobbsee [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelModeration -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
[Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
Onno Benschop wrote: > On 04/12/07 01:28, Christofer C. Bell wrote: > >> I think allowing the developers of the distribution, those who have a >> real stake in the success of the software in its entirety, to decide >> where to focus their efforts is superior to allowing the mob to decide >> what's important. I also think that using straw-man arguments to make >> your point is a mistake. >> > > The end-user has just as much stake in the success of the software in > its entirety as a developer. True, but there's the additional question - is this the appropriate place for that sort of discussion? In other words, sure, the developers need a place to discuss things free from the mob, but the mob also needs to be able to participate and voice their concerns/approval. But which is ubuntu-devel-discuss supposed to be for? According to the list description [1], it does seem to be the appropriate forum for users to get in touch with developers. Though it doesn't appear to be an appropriate place to try and draw attention to bugs on Launchpad. If that's the case, maybe it should be stated more clearly. [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Wednesday 05 December 2007 20:59, Andrew Pollock wrote: > On Dec 3, 2007 8:28 AM, Christofer C. Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > On Dec 2, 2007 3:10 PM, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > I agree that : > > > > > > On Tuesday 23 October 2007 05:25:56 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > > > > This causes people to make useless comments of the form "This bug has > > > > X > > > > > > votes, why is it only Medium importance!", which causes more e-mail > > > > notifications and slows down the developers further. > > > > > > but still this is a Comunity project, or is it not? > > > If what users and comunity desire is not the important for the > > > > "project", then what is? > > > > I think allowing the developers of the distribution, those who have a > > real stake in the success of the software in its entirety, to decide > > where to focus their efforts is superior to allowing the mob to decide > > what's important. I also think that using straw-man arguments to make > > your point is a mistake. > > I disagree. > > There needs to be some compromise between the developers and the mob, > presuming that the mob consists of end-users. The end-user decides how much > of a success the software is in its entirety. The developers need to keep > that in mind at all times. > For those of us who are volunteers (most of us), the compromise is someone has to convince me it's worth my time to bother. So I'd say the other way around. The users who want volunteers to actually do free work for them need to be convincing why I should be bothered (hint: threatening to switch back to Windows doesn't motivate me at all). I think this is useful reading for those trying to get developers interested in their problem: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On 04/12/07 01:28, Christofer C. Bell wrote: > I think allowing the developers of the distribution, those who have a > real stake in the success of the software in its entirety, to decide > where to focus their efforts is superior to allowing the mob to decide > what's important. I also think that using straw-man arguments to make > your point is a mistake. The end-user has just as much stake in the success of the software in its entirety as a developer. Some may even argue that they have more stake in its success because ultimately they're using the distribution as a tool to get their job done. -- Onno Benschop Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06" - E115°50'39" (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |>>?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Dec 3, 2007 8:28 AM, Christofer C. Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Dec 2, 2007 3:10 PM, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > I agree that : > > On Tuesday 23 October 2007 05:25:56 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > > > This causes people to make useless comments of the form "This bug has > X > > > votes, why is it only Medium importance!", which causes more e-mail > > > notifications and slows down the developers further. > > > > but still this is a Comunity project, or is it not? > > If what users and comunity desire is not the important for the > "project", then what is? > > I think allowing the developers of the distribution, those who have a > real stake in the success of the software in its entirety, to decide > where to focus their efforts is superior to allowing the mob to decide > what's important. I also think that using straw-man arguments to make > your point is a mistake. I disagree. There needs to be some compromise between the developers and the mob, presuming that the mob consists of end-users. The end-user decides how much of a success the software is in its entirety. The developers need to keep that in mind at all times. regards Andrew -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Dec 2, 2007 3:10 PM, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I agree that : > On Tuesday 23 October 2007 05:25:56 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > > This causes people to make useless comments of the form "This bug has X > > votes, why is it only Medium importance!", which causes more e-mail > > notifications and slows down the developers further. > > but still this is a Comunity project, or is it not? > If what users and comunity desire is not the important for the "project", > then what is? I think allowing the developers of the distribution, those who have a real stake in the success of the software in its entirety, to decide where to focus their efforts is superior to allowing the mob to decide what's important. I also think that using straw-man arguments to make your point is a mistake. -- Chris "Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest." -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
I agree that : On Tuesday 23 October 2007 05:25:56 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > This causes people to make useless comments of the form "This bug has X > votes, why is it only Medium importance!", which causes more e-mail > notifications and slows down the developers further. but still this is a Comunity project, or is it not? If what users and comunity desire is not the important for the "project", then what is? -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://Ubuntu.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Oct 22, 2007, at 1:05 PM, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando wrote: ... What we need is a DIGG alike system for LP. Either by counting the number of subscribers/comments, thumbs up/down (digg alike), or an hybrid way of all this. What do you guys think? ... For a variety of reasons, how many votes a bug report receives from the sort of people who hang out in bug trackers (as wonderful as those people usually are) is often very different from how important the bug is to the project in general. This causes people to make useless comments of the form "This bug has X votes, why is it only Medium importance!", which causes more e-mail notifications and slows down the developers further. It's possible that the extra noise voting would add to the bug tracker would be less than the noise it would subtract from mailing lists like this one. But in the absence of evidence about whether something will help overall, we tend to err on the side of not implementing it. Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On 10/21/07, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > What we need is a DIGG alike system for LP. > Either by counting the number of subscribers/comments, thumbs up/down (digg > alike), or an hybrid way of all this. > What do you guys think? A digg thumb up for that idea :) -- Nicolas -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Tuesday 09 October 2007 05:28:20 Todd Deshane wrote: > On 10/8/07, Aaron Whitehouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > It seems to me that if users, developers and testers that are > > > following this list care about a particular issue or bug they can > > > raise it here. If it generates no discussion and others simply ignore, > > > then it is probably not a big issue. > > > > I see your point. The same rationale, however, would support sending a > > report of each new bug filed to the list. Everyone on the list *could* > > ignore anything that they weren't interested in. > > > > > Also, the fact that the release is close, to me means that any major > > > bugs should pass by more eyes and get more attention. > > > > Most people tend to see their bugs as major. I don't mean to lessen > > the frustration of your plight, but not being able to view a pdf on a > > password restricted site isn't the most major bug that I have seen > > filed against Gutsy. In some ways there is a problem with the way > > users can't rate the importance of their own bugs. I filed a bug about > > suspend locking up my laptop every time it is used and one about the > > default spellchecker for NZers being en_US instead of en_UK. Clearly > > one is more important than the other, but they have the same > > "importance" prior to being triaged. The counter-argument, I assume, > > is that normal people can't be trusted to objectively rate the > > importance of their bugs. > > > Agreed. But, in that light who is brave enough to raise any bugs or issues? > > There are a lot of issues that get discussed that don't interest me, > but I just don't read into them as much. I do see your point, and it > is a good one, the signal to noise raise needs to be high. So, I > haven't raised other things I have found, since I didn't think they > would be interesting to a general audience or they are seemingly > obvious bugs that everyone should see. This one, being that it is an > app that most people will use and may be hitting an edge case and it > may just have a chance of being fixed before release. > > > I have grave issues with Gutsy... especially seeing as it is about a > > week from release. I have tested each milestone since pre-Breezy for > > the LaptopTesting reports and Gutsy is the least stable for me yet. > > That is largely, as I said earlier, a result of -Intel and Compiz. I > > filed my reports against each package and they are still sitting there > > untouched. So perhaps you are right that I should have pestered the > > list instead. I just don't see it as being a good policy. > > > > I think your issues are probably more important for a list such as > this. I know that there was requests at some point for experiences and > feelings about compiz. > > > > To be fair, I have now succeeded in generating more noise than the > > recent bug "awareness raising" has! > > > > This list has been pretty good about generating good content. Maybe I > was too quick to fire of the evince crash email. I just wonder where > the line should be? For example, some things should probably go to the > users list, but would they get lost in the noise there? > > And coming close to a release was another reason. I still think this > list has been quiet considering that. > > Regards, > Todd > > > > Regards, > > > > Aaron > > > What we need is a DIGG alike system for LP. Either by counting the number of subscribers/comments, thumbs up/down (digg alike), or an hybrid way of all this. What do you guys think? -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://Ubuntu.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: evince crash
On 10/9/07, Sebastien Bacher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Le mardi 09 octobre 2007 à 14:29 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia a écrit : > > > windows or osx, _they_ will come to me and say it sucks. And, damn, they > > will be right. If you can't print a pdf with the default settings of the > > distribution, how can you propose ubuntu in a scientific environment? I > > Maybe you should do some testing sooner next cycle? The bug has been > opened after the rc freeze, the gutsy milestone was not really realistic > from there > In one sense I would like to pulll back ever raising this to this list, I realize it was out of line (and on a issue that is not even a top priority for me personally). In another sense however, I did learn a lot about the process and a little about how active and attentive the community is. I really do think Ubuntu is different and has shown from the beginning that it values it users. The community is very diverse and very helpful. I, like the others on this list hope that Gusty is the best yet. So, we do what we can as users, testers, developers, etc. Thank you all for your constructive criticism and I hope that anybody that followed along with this thread learned something and the signal to noise ratio wasn't too bad. Best Regards, Todd > > Cheers, > > Sebastien Bacher > > > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: evince crash
Le mardi 09 octobre 2007 à 14:29 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia a écrit : > windows or osx, _they_ will come to me and say it sucks. And, damn, they > will be right. If you can't print a pdf with the default settings of the > distribution, how can you propose ubuntu in a scientific environment? I Maybe you should do some testing sooner next cycle? The bug has been opened after the rc freeze, the gutsy milestone was not really realistic from there Cheers, Sebastien Bacher -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: evince crash
On 09/10/2007 Aaron Whitehouse wrote: > Most people tend to see their bugs as major. I don't mean to lessen > the frustration of your plight, but not being able to view a pdf on a > password restricted site isn't the most major bug that I have seen > filed against Gutsy. I'm seriously tired of this idea that an user who subcribed to launchpad, was able to report a bug, maybe a stack trace report after installing dbg packages, and maybe can work around a bug (e.g. using another pdf viewer) wants to raise importance of its bugs because they are "own" bugs. I personally have a system which is in good shape. When I try (unusefully) to raise importance of bugs, is because I want other people to have a system in good shape, expecially newcomers to ubuntu. I want other people to have a system in good shape, because I want to be able to solve bug #1, and to do that, I have to be able to give to somebody an ubuntu cd, and she installs it, and it works out of the box. Now there are problems that, even if they are not "important" in the sense of launchpad, are "important" for the community because they impact visibly the first-time experience, with an high probability. For example, I recently reported a bug about evince having terrible print quality even in the cupsys-pdf printer. I milestoned it for gutsy, but one of the most active developers, who I consider a very talented person, surely for very good reasons, removed my request. Now, I have other users in my department with the same problem. I personally can use kpdf, other have used acroread, but the point remains: if _I_ suggest ubuntu to other persons in my department, who are currently using windows or osx, _they_ will come to me and say it sucks. And, damn, they will be right. If you can't print a pdf with the default settings of the distribution, how can you propose ubuntu in a scientific environment? I have to delay my milestone of starting distributing ubuntu cds to people in my department until certain major (for the impact on the community) bugs are fixed. Bugs I try to raise are usually those that will harm unexperienced users, not those that harm me. And if you have a crash in evince when switching pages, it will happen to documents that are _not_ password protected. In any case, the reporter should propose a serious test case, not a password protected link. But problem is that gutsy is not in good shape! If you are a newbie, you can't print pdfs, you can't switch users on laptops, you will not see your system translated in your native language by default (or do you really expect users will *decide* autonomously to activate network at *installation* time if you don't even tell them in a README on the desktop), will not be able to connect to DSL, will not be able to switch network setups without dhcp, and so on. Notice that I can do all the things above, and all the others that I have tried to raise in the past without any luck. Now, I am sure everybody will say I am complaining, or worse. NO. I AM NOT COMPLAINING. I everyday try to do my best for ubuntu, in the very few time I have, by reporting as much information as possible when I encounter bugs, and by reporting every bug I encounter. _I am just explaining __why__ users raise bugs_. I personally think ubuntu has done the best job in linux distributions. For example, look at the new system to install plugins in firefox. It's fantastic, it choses the package in the distro. This is the way to do it. The computer works, the user "uses". This is the reason why I don't want to complain, but rather to help. When I see a serious usability problem, that has been there for several years, I sometimes try to draw developers attention to that problem. Sometimes with luck, but usually not. This is why I think a voting system for bugs would be a good idea. It would not be mandatory for developers, but would give an idea of how much a bug is impacting the mass of users. Which is _really_ different from how important is a bug. Importance is related to functionality, and security, not to impact on the community. And a voting system, being normalized, would not allow people to raise importance of a bug if they are the only one affected. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On 10/8/07, Aaron Whitehouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It seems to me that if users, developers and testers that are > > following this list care about a particular issue or bug they can > > raise it here. If it generates no discussion and others simply ignore, > > then it is probably not a big issue. > > I see your point. The same rationale, however, would support sending a > report of each new bug filed to the list. Everyone on the list *could* > ignore anything that they weren't interested in. > > > Also, the fact that the release is close, to me means that any major > > bugs should pass by more eyes and get more attention. > > Most people tend to see their bugs as major. I don't mean to lessen > the frustration of your plight, but not being able to view a pdf on a > password restricted site isn't the most major bug that I have seen > filed against Gutsy. In some ways there is a problem with the way > users can't rate the importance of their own bugs. I filed a bug about > suspend locking up my laptop every time it is used and one about the > default spellchecker for NZers being en_US instead of en_UK. Clearly > one is more important than the other, but they have the same > "importance" prior to being triaged. The counter-argument, I assume, > is that normal people can't be trusted to objectively rate the > importance of their bugs. > Agreed. But, in that light who is brave enough to raise any bugs or issues? There are a lot of issues that get discussed that don't interest me, but I just don't read into them as much. I do see your point, and it is a good one, the signal to noise raise needs to be high. So, I haven't raised other things I have found, since I didn't think they would be interesting to a general audience or they are seemingly obvious bugs that everyone should see. This one, being that it is an app that most people will use and may be hitting an edge case and it may just have a chance of being fixed before release. > I have grave issues with Gutsy... especially seeing as it is about a > week from release. I have tested each milestone since pre-Breezy for > the LaptopTesting reports and Gutsy is the least stable for me yet. > That is largely, as I said earlier, a result of -Intel and Compiz. I > filed my reports against each package and they are still sitting there > untouched. So perhaps you are right that I should have pestered the > list instead. I just don't see it as being a good policy. > I think your issues are probably more important for a list such as this. I know that there was requests at some point for experiences and feelings about compiz. > To be fair, I have now succeeded in generating more noise than the > recent bug "awareness raising" has! > This list has been pretty good about generating good content. Maybe I was too quick to fire of the evince crash email. I just wonder where the line should be? For example, some things should probably go to the users list, but would they get lost in the noise there? And coming close to a release was another reason. I still think this list has been quiet considering that. Regards, Todd > Regards, > > Aaron > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: evince crash
> It seems to me that if users, developers and testers that are > following this list care about a particular issue or bug they can > raise it here. If it generates no discussion and others simply ignore, > then it is probably not a big issue. I see your point. The same rationale, however, would support sending a report of each new bug filed to the list. Everyone on the list *could* ignore anything that they weren't interested in. > Also, the fact that the release is close, to me means that any major > bugs should pass by more eyes and get more attention. Most people tend to see their bugs as major. I don't mean to lessen the frustration of your plight, but not being able to view a pdf on a password restricted site isn't the most major bug that I have seen filed against Gutsy. In some ways there is a problem with the way users can't rate the importance of their own bugs. I filed a bug about suspend locking up my laptop every time it is used and one about the default spellchecker for NZers being en_US instead of en_UK. Clearly one is more important than the other, but they have the same "importance" prior to being triaged. The counter-argument, I assume, is that normal people can't be trusted to objectively rate the importance of their bugs. I have grave issues with Gutsy... especially seeing as it is about a week from release. I have tested each milestone since pre-Breezy for the LaptopTesting reports and Gutsy is the least stable for me yet. That is largely, as I said earlier, a result of -Intel and Compiz. I filed my reports against each package and they are still sitting there untouched. So perhaps you are right that I should have pestered the list instead. I just don't see it as being a good policy. To be fair, I have now succeeded in generating more noise than the recent bug "awareness raising" has! Regards, Aaron -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: evince crash
Hi All, On 10/8/07, Aaron Whitehouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I think crashes are not a good sign, so I was hoping to raise some > > awareness of this problem. > > Quite a few people have been "raising awareness" about bugs that they > have filed. I too have filed some seriously nasty bugs that make Gutsy > close to unusable for me (mostly to do with compiz and the -intel > driver being used by default). They are still sitting there without > having been looked at and we are about a week from release. > > My point is simply this: the more people that "raise awareness" about > bugs, the more people will look at what is being mentioned and think > that their bugs are more important. This will mean that the list gets > clogged with messages like this and people will unsubscribe from the > list. If I want a list of high-priority bugs then I will search for > them in Launchpad. > > There is a system in place already to triage and rate the importance > of bugs. If that system is broken then we need to fix it. Trying to > circumvent the system by posting to this list is not sustainable. > > Feel free to disagree. > I have felt that the traffic on this list has been relatively light. Most threads are concerning discussion type issues. There have only been a few raised bugs. I have no problem resisting to send bugs, but I thought that this would be a list for discussion on such issues. clipped from: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss # Sharing of experiences with the current development branch of Ubuntu # Technical questions about new features in the development branch # Ideas and suggestions about future development of Ubuntu # Point of contact for Ubuntu users to reach Ubuntu developers # Open to all to subscribe, posting moderated for non-subscribers It seems to me that if users, developers and testers that are following this list care about a particular issue or bug they can raise it here. If it generates no discussion and others simply ignore, then it is probably not a big issue. I raised this one in particular only because I wanted to try to find others to test, since it was a special case requiring a ACM account. Also, the fact that the release is close, to me means that any major bugs should pass by more eyes and get more attention. To me it seems as though that is what an open source community is for. Like I said, if the consensus is not to raise such issues on this list, then I will refrain. Just let me know. Thanks, Todd > Regards, > > Aaron > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: evince crash
> I think crashes are not a good sign, so I was hoping to raise some > awareness of this problem. Quite a few people have been "raising awareness" about bugs that they have filed. I too have filed some seriously nasty bugs that make Gutsy close to unusable for me (mostly to do with compiz and the -intel driver being used by default). They are still sitting there without having been looked at and we are about a week from release. My point is simply this: the more people that "raise awareness" about bugs, the more people will look at what is being mentioned and think that their bugs are more important. This will mean that the list gets clogged with messages like this and people will unsubscribe from the list. If I want a list of high-priority bugs then I will search for them in Launchpad. There is a system in place already to triage and rate the importance of bugs. If that system is broken then we need to fix it. Trying to circumvent the system by posting to this list is not sustainable. Feel free to disagree. Regards, Aaron -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
evince crash
Hi All, I think crashes are not a good sign, so I was hoping to raise some awareness of this problem. I am getting a crash trying to go to page 11 or 15 of: http://www.acm.org/acmqueue/digital/Queuevol5no6_September2007.pdf I was hoping that someone with access to an ACM account could try it to confirm. I filed a bug that contains the strace: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evince/+bug/150793 Thanks, Todd -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
