Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Richmond Mathewson wrote:

> "illegal": that's funny, I thought EULA thingies were not legally
> binding.

In what jurisdiction?

> Although, to be honest, spending "all that bother" installing Mac OS
> on  a machine that isn't designed for it seems a bit pointless when
> Linux works on almost any machine you can throw at it.

And infinitely tinkerable. Customization on macOS is a choice between 
blue or grey selection highlights. ;)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 01/23/2018 09:45 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

I've been lucky with Linux, in that all but one of my installs went 
swimmingly right out of the box.  And for that one, Ubuntu discovered 
the need for a driver for me, and prompted me to click a button to 
install it.


I even have Ubuntu running on one of the original OLPC computers.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

"illegal": that's funny, I thought EULA thingies were not legally binding.

Although, to be honest, spending "all that bother" installing Mac OS on 
a machine that isn't designed for it seems

a bit pointless when Linux works on almost any machine you can throw at it.

Richmond.

On 23/1/2018 9:09 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

Mainly because the OS is specifically written to prevent it. If it weren't, there would 
be no problem. The OS is compiled for a chipset, and as far as I know it's the same in 
all respects as a "Windows" PC.


On Jan 23, 2018, at 09:45 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Trying to install macOS on a PC not designed for it is as frustrating as it is 
illegal.


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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Mainly because the OS is specifically written to prevent it. If it weren't, 
there would be no problem. The OS is compiled for a chipset, and as far as I 
know it's the same in all respects as a "Windows" PC. 

> On Jan 23, 2018, at 09:45 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Trying to install macOS on a PC not designed for it is as frustrating as it 
> is illegal.  


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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

I'm glad that worked out, Matthias.

Linux can be every bit as easy to work with as other OSes when you get 
it like we get other OSes: pre-installed with the computer you 
purchased, with all the necessary drivers and configs set up for that 
particular hardware.


Dell, Acer, System 76, ZaReason, and others sell some nice machines with 
Linux pre-installed.


The challenge with Linux is when we ask it to do something we never ask 
of other OSes, to run on a machine designed specifically to run a 
different OS.


Trying to install macOS on a PC not designed for it is as frustrating as 
it is illegal.  And even though most PCs are designed specifically to 
Microsoft's specs, I've seen more than a few cases where installing a 
stock version rather than using the restore disk becomes DLL hell.


I've been lucky with Linux, in that all but one of my installs went 
swimmingly right out of the box.  And for that one, Ubuntu discovered 
the need for a driver for me, and prompted me to click a button to 
install it.


In your case a one-line change to the boot config fixed it.  I find most 
install issues are about that small, if one is the sort who doesn't mind 
a few minutes looking up an answer and typing it in Terminal.


And if you're looking for a simpler out-of-the-box solution, for PCs 
with modest resources you could also try Xubuntu or other lightweight 
distros.  The chances of at least one of those working well on a stock 
Asus with N270 is pretty good.


By expecting Linux to run on everything we throw at it, we're asking it 
to work much harder than we ask of any other OS.  It's a testimony to 
the teams that make it that it generally does.


And with Linux having become the de facto standard of modern computing 
in all areas beyond the desktop, time spent learning it is a good 
investment in the 21st century.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems


Matthias Rebbe wrote:

adding that line to grub fixed it. Thanks for that.

Matthias


Am 23.01.2018 um 15:08 schrieb Mike Bonner via use-livecode mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>:

If you can switch to the 4.15 kernel the screen issue may be fixed,
alternatively..
If you can get to a terminal screen with lubuntu, it looks like you can do
the following to fix the display problem.. (works for some, not all it
seems)

sudo nano /etc/default/grub

Simple editor 'nano' will open.
Add line
GRUB_GFXPAYLOAD_LINUX=text
at the end of file.

Save file and exit from nano.

issue command:

sudo update-grub

reboot.

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 6:00 AM, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > 
wrote:


Thanks to all for your thoughts and comments.

My first try now was Lubuntu 17.10.1, Installation was quick and easy, but
unfortunately there seems to be a bug in it which affects my graphic card
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1724639 
 <
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1724639 
>

Problem is that after startup 80% of the screen are shown black. I need to
hibernate the system and wake it up again to get the whole screen shown.

In a next step and when i have again some spare time i will try 16.04, if
this is also not working then i will again “say good bye” to Linux as i did
already some years ago and will move on with Mac OS X and Windows.
At least for some time.  Linux and me - some kind of a love-hate. ;)

Matthias



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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

hh wrote:

> I use Lubuntu/Xubuntu on my Raspis and have moreover my fastest
> machine running with Mint-Cinnamon.
> But I work with LiveCode only on Mac or Win. Whenever I make a widget
> or use widgets I try for several hours to arrive at workarounds for
> the linux version. Only that is a lot of pain -- the upper limit for
> me.

That sounds painful.  What do those widgets do?

I use LC daily on Ubuntu, occasionally dipping into macOS or Windows 
depending on what I'm working on.  The browser widget has gone though 
several iterations that have been hit-and-miss (current miss in v9 but 
anticipated to be resolved before Stable), and audio and video playback 
have gotten so progressively worse since that last worked in MetaCard as 
to be currently unusable (though the funded Player revision will 
presumably address that when the Linux version catches up with the Mac 
and Win versions that are already done).


But in my own experience those are the only two areas I've experienced 
limitations with LC on Linux. Pretty much everything else I can think of 
works well here.


It would be helpful to know where you're encountering issue so we can 
help steward those bug reports to completion.


Linux isn't going away, and while it's not a direct revenue generator 
for the company it plays a strong strategic role I'm sure they don't 
want to conceded to other tools.  Let's see what's needed to bring LC's 
Linux version up to par to keep it competitive in that growing space.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[hh via use-livecode]

> R.M. wrote:
> That [these issues] only is of value IFF you care about what the
> Linux version of LiveCode is missing.
> AND more people should be badgering LiveCode to get their Linux
> version up to par. 

The people using LiveCode with Linux I know (also seen from all the
responses here) have special characteristics

= they have a high level of scripting abilities
= they are also interested in other OSes
= they are passionate lovers of LiveCode 
= they are able to use LiveCode in agony without crying.

I use Lubuntu/Xubuntu on my Raspis and have moreover my fastest
machine running with Mint-Cinnamon.
But I work with LiveCode only on Mac or Win. Whenever I make a widget
or use widgets I try for several hours to arrive at workarounds for
the linux version. Only that is a lot of pain -- the upper limit for me. 

>> hh wrote:
>> [netbook] ... The problem is LiveCode: The Linux version of LiveCode
>> has essential bugs or missing features (browser widget, video, sound).
>> So I would recommend to install Windows 7 (and the Firefox browser).
>> I did it. Now LiveCode is working as it should.

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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Hah! I always say, ask 5 psychiatrists and you'll get 10 different opinions. :-)

Bob S


> On Jan 22, 2018, at 18:07 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> But ask any three linux users and you'll get half a dozen different answers.


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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

adding that line to grub fixed it. Thanks for that.

Matthias


> Am 23.01.2018 um 15:08 schrieb Mike Bonner via use-livecode 
> >:
> 
> If you can switch to the 4.15 kernel the screen issue may be fixed,
> alternatively..
> If you can get to a terminal screen with lubuntu, it looks like you can do
> the following to fix the display problem.. (works for some, not all it
> seems)
> 
> sudo nano /etc/default/grub
> 
> Simple editor 'nano' will open.
> Add line
> GRUB_GFXPAYLOAD_LINUX=text
> at the end of file.
> 
> Save file and exit from nano.
> 
> issue command:
> 
> sudo update-grub
> 
> reboot.
> 
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 6:00 AM, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:
> 
>> Thanks to all for your thoughts and comments.
>> 
>> My first try now was Lubuntu 17.10.1, Installation was quick and easy, but
>> unfortunately there seems to be a bug in it which affects my graphic card
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1724639 
>>  <
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1724639 
>> >
>> 
>> Problem is that after startup 80% of the screen are shown black. I need to
>> hibernate the system and wake it up again to get the whole screen shown.
>> 
>> In a next step and when i have again some spare time i will try 16.04, if
>> this is also not working then i will again “say good bye” to Linux as i did
>> already some years ago and will move on with Mac OS X and Windows.
>> At least for some time.  Linux and me - some kind of a love-hate. ;)
>> 
>> Matthias
>> 
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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Mike Bonner via use-livecode]

If you can switch to the 4.15 kernel the screen issue may be fixed,
alternatively..
If you can get to a terminal screen with lubuntu, it looks like you can do
the following to fix the display problem.. (works for some, not all it
seems)

sudo nano /etc/default/grub

Simple editor 'nano' will open.
Add line
GRUB_GFXPAYLOAD_LINUX=text
at the end of file.

Save file and exit from nano.

issue command:

sudo update-grub

reboot.

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 6:00 AM, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Thanks to all for your thoughts and comments.
>
> My first try now was Lubuntu 17.10.1, Installation was quick and easy, but
> unfortunately there seems to be a bug in it which affects my graphic card
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1724639 <
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1724639>
>
> Problem is that after startup 80% of the screen are shown black. I need to
> hibernate the system and wake it up again to get the whole screen shown.
>
> In a next step and when i have again some spare time i will try 16.04, if
> this is also not working then i will again “say good bye” to Linux as i did
> already some years ago and will move on with Mac OS X and Windows.
> At least for some time.  Linux and me - some kind of a love-hate. ;)
>
> Matthias
>
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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Thanks to all for your thoughts and comments. 

My first try now was Lubuntu 17.10.1, Installation was quick and easy, but 
unfortunately there seems to be a bug in it which affects my graphic card
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1724639 


Problem is that after startup 80% of the screen are shown black. I need to 
hibernate the system and wake it up again to get the whole screen shown. 

In a next step and when i have again some spare time i will try 16.04, if this 
is also not working then i will again “say good bye” to Linux as i did already 
some years ago and will move on with Mac OS X and Windows.
At least for some time.  Linux and me - some kind of a love-hate. ;)

Matthias

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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

That only is of value IFF you care about what the Linux version of 
LiveCode is missing.


AND more people should be badgering LiveCode to get their Linux version 
up to par.


Richmond.

On 23/1/2018 12:39 pm, hh via use-livecode wrote:

Matthias,

sometimes I use a nearly identical netbook (for example when there is not enough
space for a modern laptop).

I had installed Lubuntu for several months. That *OS* is optimally suited for 
such
a netbook. But I removed it. Why?

The problem is LiveCode: The Linux version of LiveCode has essential bugs or 
missing
features (browser widget, video, sound). So I would recommend to install 
Windows 7
(and the Firefox browser).

I did it. Now LiveCode is working as it should.

Hermann

p.s. Lubuntu is also a good OS for Raspi 2/3 (running LiveCode 6.5.1 - raspi 
edition)
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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[hh via use-livecode]

Matthias,

sometimes I use a nearly identical netbook (for example when there is not enough
space for a modern laptop).

I had installed Lubuntu for several months. That *OS* is optimally suited for 
such
a netbook. But I removed it. Why?

The problem is LiveCode: The Linux version of LiveCode has essential bugs or 
missing
features (browser widget, video, sound). So I would recommend to install 
Windows 7
(and the Firefox browser).

I did it. Now LiveCode is working as it should.

Hermann

p.s. Lubuntu is also a good OS for Raspi 2/3 (running LiveCode 6.5.1 - raspi 
edition)
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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

I run Xubuntu 16.04 on machines with significantly lower specifications
with no trouble at all.

Richmond.

On 23/1/2018 2:31 am, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote:

Hi,

so this goes to the Linux experts on this list.

I have here an old Asus EeePC 1000H which currently runs with Windows XP and 
which is not used very often.
It has an Intel Atom N270 CPU, 1GB ram and a 160GB harddisk.

What Linux OS do you recommend for this machine? Best would be, if it could be 
used also with Livecode.
I am planning to give it away to someone here in the neighbourhood who just 
want to use it for some writing and “Livecoding”.

What do you think?

Regards,
Matthias
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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Matthias Rebbe wrote:

> I have here an old Asus EeePC 1000H which currently runs with Windows
> XP and which is not used very often.
> It has an Intel Atom N270 CPU, 1GB ram and a 160GB harddisk.
>
> What Linux OS do you recommend for this machine? Best would be, if it
> could be used also with Livecode.

I like Ubuntu, and as the leading desktop Linux it's a good choice for 
the wide range of support materials available.


But the Atom N270 isn't exactly new, and it wasn't a serious workhorse 
when it premiered in '08.  I like the chip, and have a nettop in my 
office still running with it even now; it collates and processes the 
feeds shown in LiveNet (among many other things, including being one of 
my Nextcloud servers, remote backup manager, occasional UI stress 
tester, and more).


Old machines can be very useful, esp. with a power-miser chip like the 
Atom line.  But you'll want to consider relative performance when 
choosing a distro, looking for one with minimal graphics requirements 
and not very taxing on the CPU.


I did a lot of reading about low-resource Linux distros a while back 
when I first converted my N270 box from Windows to Linux, and again a 
couple years ago.


Bottom line: Lubuntu.

It's a lightweight flavor of Ubuntu designed specifically for modest 
hardware.  It uses a very lean window manager and desktop environment 
that's more Windows-like than Ubuntu's Unity UI may be consider 
Mac-like, but it's quite usable and very stable.


There's also Xubuntu, and outside of Ubuntu derivatives many others. 
But few can match Lubuntu's lean system requirements.


And it comes with an extra bonus for LiveCode folks: Both Alejandro and 
myself are experienced using LiveCode in Lubuntu, so if you run into any 
snags you have at least two more sources of support. :)


Have fun.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 01/22/2018 04:31 PM, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote:

Hi,

so this goes to the Linux experts on this list.

I have here an old Asus EeePC 1000H which currently runs with Windows XP and 
which is not used very often.
It has an Intel Atom N270 CPU, 1GB ram and a 160GB harddisk.

What Linux OS do you recommend for this machine? Best would be, if it could be 
used also with Livecode.
I am planning to give it away to someone here in the neighbourhood who just 
want to use it for some writing and “Livecoding”.

What do you think?


This is one of those religious questions.
Far be it from me to consider myself an 'expert', but...

The liner notes list four flavors of linux that are 'officially' 
supported. If you want to stay the most compatible with LiveCode I'd 
recommend going with Ubuntu 16 LTS. I supported Fedora at work until 
Gnome3 came along and messed up the desktop. I had some hiccups with 
LiveCode and Debian, which finally got resolved to a glibc version 
issue. But ask any three linux users and you'll get half a dozen 
different answers.


Be prepared to do some handholding. LiveCode and linux have a platonic 
relationship.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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OT - What linux do you recommend for older PCs?

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Hi,

so this goes to the Linux experts on this list.

I have here an old Asus EeePC 1000H which currently runs with Windows XP and 
which is not used very often.
It has an Intel Atom N270 CPU, 1GB ram and a 160GB harddisk.

What Linux OS do you recommend for this machine? Best would be, if it could be 
used also with Livecode.
I am planning to give it away to someone here in the neighbourhood who just 
want to use it for some writing and “Livecoding”.

What do you think?

Regards,
Matthias
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