Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On 3 October 2011 16:06, Ken Arromdee wrote: > On Mon, 3 Oct 2011, Scott MacDonald wrote: > > I've never understood people's problem with WP:DICK. > > Because invokin g it is equivalent to calling the other person a dick. > > Every day, I see perfectly civil people facepalming. I have yet to see a civil person turn to someone in public and say "Don't be a dick." I think perhaps some peoples' civility radar is somewhat out of tune. Risker/Anne ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
James Forrester wrote: > On 3 October 2011 15:37, Bob the Wikipedian > wrote: >> Wait, so someone pulling [[WP:DICK]] on someone else is something I >> can take to Arbcom? Arbcom is gonna be pretty busy if I start >> reporting every time I see it doneand I can't see it going very >> far with Arbcom or with AN/Iconsidering how many people back it >> as one of the "three most important principles of Wikipedia"-- which >> I disagree with entirely > > When we founded ArbCom it was entirely with user disputes in mind. I'd > be disappointed and surprised if poor user behaviour wasn't dealt with > by the current Committee, but if you don't do anything about it and > call people on their poor behaviour when you see it, it'll never > improve. > > J. That's an entirely different proposition from merely being vindictive for its own sake, which seems to be the current modus operandi of ArbCom. "Calling people on their poor behaviour" may be a function of ArbCom, but only when all other avenues have been exhausted, including RfC, and only when there is no plausible route to rehabilitation, including (but not limited to) friendly advice, a break from adminning to recover from the stress (which, to be honest, might well include death threatson one's own Talk page), or even a temporary desysop in the interests of the admin. Tell me, when did ArbCom last take that position, and actually realise that volunteering to improve Wikipedia, whether by adding content, or dealing with vandalism, or otherwise applying WP policies, is to be appreciated rather than castigated? Clue:Never, in my experience, and certainly not recently. ArbCom is a ramshackle, unaccountable shed, which should be torn down and rebuilt from scratch, if not cast permanently into the "not fit for purpose" dustbin. It's a disgrace as it is now. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
Wait, so someone pulling [[WP:DICK]] on someone else is something I can take to Arbcom? Arbcom is gonna be pretty busy if I start reporting every time I see it doneand I can't see it going very far with Arbcom or with AN/Iconsidering how many people back it as one of the "three most important principles of Wikipedia"-- which I disagree with entirely Bob On 10/3/2011 3:11 PM, James Forrester wrote: > On 3 October 2011 13:06, Ken Arromdee wrote: >> On Mon, 3 Oct 2011, Scott MacDonald wrote: >>> I've never understood people's problem with WP:DICK. >> Because invoking it is equivalent to calling the other person a dick. > One of the fun things we wrote into the policy right from the start > was that invoking it was reflexively wrong, so really people shouldn't > (barring extreme circumstances). It's primarily foundational (or > "constitutional") policy from which other merely high-level policies > spring (e.g. No Personal Attacks; Don't Revert, Discuss; Consensus Can > Change, etc.). > > If you find examples of people invoking it against others, you should > take that to AN/I or a similar venue as it's generally a violation of > NPA. ArbCom citing it in a case doesn't count, obviously. > > J. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On 3 October 2011 15:37, Bob the Wikipedian wrote: > Wait, so someone pulling [[WP:DICK]] on someone else is something I can > take to Arbcom? Arbcom is gonna be pretty busy if I start reporting > every time I see it doneand I can't see it going very far with > Arbcom or with AN/Iconsidering how many people back it as one of the > "three most important principles of Wikipedia"-- which I disagree with > entirely When we founded ArbCom it was entirely with user disputes in mind. I'd be disappointed and surprised if poor user behaviour wasn't dealt with by the current Committee, but if you don't do anything about it and call people on their poor behaviour when you see it, it'll never improve. J. -- James D. Forrester jdforres...@wikimedia.org | jdforres...@gmail.com [[Wikipedia:User:Jdforrester|James F.]] ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On 3 October 2011 13:06, Ken Arromdee wrote: > On Mon, 3 Oct 2011, Scott MacDonald wrote: >> I've never understood people's problem with WP:DICK. > > Because invoking it is equivalent to calling the other person a dick. One of the fun things we wrote into the policy right from the start was that invoking it was reflexively wrong, so really people shouldn't (barring extreme circumstances). It's primarily foundational (or "constitutional") policy from which other merely high-level policies spring (e.g. No Personal Attacks; Don't Revert, Discuss; Consensus Can Change, etc.). If you find examples of people invoking it against others, you should take that to AN/I or a similar venue as it's generally a violation of NPA. ArbCom citing it in a case doesn't count, obviously. J. -- James D. Forrester jdforres...@wikimedia.org | jdforres...@gmail.com [[Wikipedia:User:Jdforrester|James F.]] ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On Mon, 3 Oct 2011, Scott MacDonald wrote: > I've never understood people's problem with WP:DICK. Because invokin g it is equivalent to calling the other person a dick. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
> -Original Message-
> From: wikien-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-
> boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Rob Schnautz
> Sent: 03 October 2011 19:25
> To: English Wikipedia
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
>
> Usually when I "facepalm" it's because I have a "moment", not someone
> else...
>
> I believe [[WP:DICK]] is a bigger issue than {{facepalm}} at the
> moment
>
> Bob
>
Dick has a didactic point - facepalm has none.
I've never understood people's problem with WP:DICK.
Scott
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
Usually when I "facepalm" it's because I have a "moment", not someone
else...
I believe [[WP:DICK]] is a bigger issue than {{facepalm}} at the moment
Bob
On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Carcharoth wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Scott MacDonald
> wrote:
>
> > Granted, removing uncivil templates won't magically increase patient and
> > constructive discussion, but I do suspect we'd still nevertheless delete
> > {{jackass}} or {{moron}}. If people are going to mock others, we
> shouldn't
> > be giving them shortcuts to do so. The existence of the template serves
> to
> > legitimise such dismissive discourse.
>
> Template:Jackass exists as a navigational template for the show.
>
> Carcharoth
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Scott MacDonald
wrote:
> Granted, removing uncivil templates won't magically increase patient and
> constructive discussion, but I do suspect we'd still nevertheless delete
> {{jackass}} or {{moron}}. If people are going to mock others, we shouldn't
> be giving them shortcuts to do so. The existence of the template serves to
> legitimise such dismissive discourse.
Template:Jackass exists as a navigational template for the show.
Carcharoth
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
Now on TFD, suggest we take it there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2011_Oct
ober_3#Template:Facepalm
> -Original Message-
> From: wikien-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-
> boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of David Gerard
> Sent: 03 October 2011 11:05
> To: English Wikipedia
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
>
> On 3 October 2011 11:02, Scott MacDonald
> wrote:
>
> > Granted, removing uncivil templates won't magically increase patient
> and
> > constructive discussion, but I do suspect we'd still nevertheless
> delete
> > {{jackass}} or {{moron}}. If people are going to mock others, we
> shouldn't
> > be giving them shortcuts to do so. The existence of the template
> serves to
> > legitimise such dismissive discourse.
> > Thoughts?
>
>
> Sounds reasonable on civility grounds. You could probably get a TFD to
> fly.
>
>
> - d.
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
I wouldn't judge it on the connotations, I'd judge it on the use. Self
deprecatory such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Winters is
fine.
Some of the other times it has been used are more troubling, but is it any
worse than some of the intemperate language we sometimes see? I'd prefer
that we keep it and try to resolve the conflicts rather than the symptoms of
those conflicts.
WereSpielChequers
On 3 October 2011 11:07, Thomas Morton wrote:
> On 3 October 2011 11:02, Scott MacDonald
> wrote:
>
> > According to our article [[Facepalm]], this is a startrek internet meme
> > indicating "an expression of embarrassment, frustration, disbelief,
> > disgust,
> > shame or general woe. It often expresses mockery or disbelief of
> perceived
> > idiocy."
> >
> > Well, that must be right.
> >
> > Given that, I am wondering why we tolerate a template {{facepalm}}
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Facepalm
> >
> > This does nothing to foster civil discourse among Wikipedians. I've just
> > looked through how it is being used, and whilst I do see the occasional
> use
> > in self-deprecation, generally it is used as a shorthand put-down:
> > implicitly calling your correspondent an idiot, and his latest
> contribution
> > self-evidently moronic.
> >
> > Granted, removing uncivil templates won't magically increase patient and
> > constructive discussion, but I do suspect we'd still nevertheless delete
> > {{jackass}} or {{moron}}. If people are going to mock others, we
> shouldn't
> > be giving them shortcuts to do so. The existence of the template serves
> to
> > legitimise such dismissive discourse.
> >
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
>
> {{facepalm}} (sorry... couldn't resist ;))
>
> I bet any TFD goes off the rails...
>
> On the one hand the template does have somewhat negative connotations. On
> the other hand it always stuck me as a slightly less confrontational way of
> saying "that's stupid". *shrug*
>
> Tom
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On 3 October 2011 11:02, Scott MacDonald wrote:
> According to our article [[Facepalm]], this is a startrek internet meme
> indicating "an expression of embarrassment, frustration, disbelief,
> disgust,
> shame or general woe. It often expresses mockery or disbelief of perceived
> idiocy."
>
> Well, that must be right.
>
> Given that, I am wondering why we tolerate a template {{facepalm}}
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Facepalm
>
> This does nothing to foster civil discourse among Wikipedians. I've just
> looked through how it is being used, and whilst I do see the occasional use
> in self-deprecation, generally it is used as a shorthand put-down:
> implicitly calling your correspondent an idiot, and his latest contribution
> self-evidently moronic.
>
> Granted, removing uncivil templates won't magically increase patient and
> constructive discussion, but I do suspect we'd still nevertheless delete
> {{jackass}} or {{moron}}. If people are going to mock others, we shouldn't
> be giving them shortcuts to do so. The existence of the template serves to
> legitimise such dismissive discourse.
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
{{facepalm}} (sorry... couldn't resist ;))
I bet any TFD goes off the rails...
On the one hand the template does have somewhat negative connotations. On
the other hand it always stuck me as a slightly less confrontational way of
saying "that's stupid". *shrug*
Tom
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On 3 October 2011 11:02, Scott MacDonald wrote:
> Granted, removing uncivil templates won't magically increase patient and
> constructive discussion, but I do suspect we'd still nevertheless delete
> {{jackass}} or {{moron}}. If people are going to mock others, we shouldn't
> be giving them shortcuts to do so. The existence of the template serves to
> legitimise such dismissive discourse.
> Thoughts?
Sounds reasonable on civility grounds. You could probably get a TFD to fly.
- d.
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[WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
According to our article [[Facepalm]], this is a startrek internet meme
indicating "an expression of embarrassment, frustration, disbelief, disgust,
shame or general woe. It often expresses mockery or disbelief of perceived
idiocy."
Well, that must be right.
Given that, I am wondering why we tolerate a template {{facepalm}}
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Facepalm
This does nothing to foster civil discourse among Wikipedians. I've just
looked through how it is being used, and whilst I do see the occasional use
in self-deprecation, generally it is used as a shorthand put-down:
implicitly calling your correspondent an idiot, and his latest contribution
self-evidently moronic.
Granted, removing uncivil templates won't magically increase patient and
constructive discussion, but I do suspect we'd still nevertheless delete
{{jackass}} or {{moron}}. If people are going to mock others, we shouldn't
be giving them shortcuts to do so. The existence of the template serves to
legitimise such dismissive discourse.
Thoughts?
Scott
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