Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
I see how reporting helps, but I fail to see how CALEA helps us. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Frank Muto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking You don't get it. CALEA was a good thing for WISPA and its members. You need to understand that you pick the battles you feel you can win. WISPA has gained a good amount of respect from the FCC, but this is only one of many battle fronts WISP's are up against. The FIGHT for US battle cry you comment on takes money, time and a good amount off leg work to make things work. You are dealing with a bureau that has many different levels of staffing, it can take weeks to know who to talk to, when and if they will talk to you, will it be ex-parte or not, etc, etc, etc. Understand that the RBOCs and other companies are clamoring for the eyes and ears of those a the FCC, as WISPs need to get to.The fight is not only on the federal level, but also at the state and local levels as well. Frank - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCC toPunishComcast Over Web Blocking insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Frank Muto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:53 AM Subject: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCC to PunishComcast Over Web Blocking I will got out here and say it. There is NO excuse not to support WISPA, NONE! So for all of you on this general list not supporting WISPA, you are losing out on an opportunity to make your livelihood last and support your families for years to come. $25 a month is a small price to pay for some representation in a industry that is supporting yourself and families. I am sure you can find that much on wasted expenses every month. Yes, there is. Until the current leadership gets their head out of the sand and starts fighting FOR US, instead of playing the FCC's patsy, I will not give them another dollar. When the boys came back from DC and posting to the lists that CALEA and the reporting mandates were good things, I could no longer in good conscience give them another dollar to use to use AGAINST US. Whatever they did or said in DC on that topic, IN NO WAY REPRESENTED ME OR THE INTERESTS OF MY BUSINESS OR MY FUTURE. When I saw certain WISPA leadership glom onto the idea of a CALEA mandate being an opportunity to extract more money and blackmail more memberships, I was immediately convinced that they were in it FOR THEM, and not us.I even saw posting by someone who said that CALEA would be good for WISPA. Not good for the members = good for WISPA? Hell NO! I will not play that game. We got local, state and federal governemnt playing that game, why would I voluntarily add WISPA to it? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
I see the value in reporting. I see the value in what WISPA did after CALEA was a requirement. I don't see the value in CALEA itself. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Frank Muto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking You don't get it. CALEA was a good thing for WISPA and its members. You need to understand that you pick the battles you feel you can win. WISPA has gained a good amount of respect from the FCC, but this is only one of many battle fronts WISP's are up against. The FIGHT for US battle cry you comment on takes money, time and a good amount off leg work to make things work. You are dealing with a bureau that has many different levels of staffing, it can take weeks to know who to talk to, when and if they will talk to you, will it be ex-parte or not, etc, etc, etc. Understand that the RBOCs and other companies are clamoring for the eyes and ears of those a the FCC, as WISPs need to get to.The fight is not only on the federal level, but also at the state and local levels as well. Frank - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCC toPunishComcast Over Web Blocking insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Frank Muto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:53 AM Subject: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCC to PunishComcast Over Web Blocking I will got out here and say it. There is NO excuse not to support WISPA, NONE! So for all of you on this general list not supporting WISPA, you are losing out on an opportunity to make your livelihood last and support your families for years to come. $25 a month is a small price to pay for some representation in a industry that is supporting yourself and families. I am sure you can find that much on wasted expenses every month. Yes, there is. Until the current leadership gets their head out of the sand and starts fighting FOR US, instead of playing the FCC's patsy, I will not give them another dollar. When the boys came back from DC and posting to the lists that CALEA and the reporting mandates were good things, I could no longer in good conscience give them another dollar to use to use AGAINST US. Whatever they did or said in DC on that topic, IN NO WAY REPRESENTED ME OR THE INTERESTS OF MY BUSINESS OR MY FUTURE. When I saw certain WISPA leadership glom onto the idea of a CALEA mandate being an opportunity to extract more money and blackmail more memberships, I was immediately convinced that they were in it FOR THEM, and not us.I even saw posting by someone who said that CALEA would be good for WISPA. Not good for the members = good for WISPA? Hell NO! I will not play that game. We got local, state and federal governemnt playing that game, why would I voluntarily add WISPA to it? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Frank Muto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking You don't get it. CALEA was a good thing for WISPA and its members. No, of course I don't get it. This has got to be one of the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life. I can find NO benefit to it of ANY kind. Nor has anyone I know of explained a single benefit, ever. It is a mandate on how a network must function, a limitation to equipment, software, topology, and redundancy, and an absurd notion in the first place. It is a direct requirement to dumb-down and overbuild bandwidth, with NO return of ANY kind, financial or otherwise. A good thing? Obviously, you're in the camp that expecting to get money ripped out of someone else's pockets and headed your way. Or, just try to explain it. Nobody has till now. They make the statement, but the logic used is an insult to our intelligence. You need to understand that you pick the battles you feel you can win. WISPA has gained a good amount of respect from the FCC, but this is only one of many battle fronts WISP's are up against. Gained respect? Please. This is imaginary nonsense. We're forgotten faster than styrofoam cup in a hurricane. We haven't got the millions to bribe them with, so there is no amount of positive influence we can have. The FIGHT for US battle cry you comment on takes money, time and a good amount off leg work to make things work. No kidding. I agree entirely. But when people start the comments like CALEA is good for us, whatever agenda they have in mind is NOT the well being of WISP's, but some kind of other agenda. You are dealing with a bureau that has many different levels of staffing, it can take weeks to know who to talk to, when and if they will talk to you, will it be ex-parte or not, etc, etc, etc. Like any other organization. Understand that the RBOCs and other companies are clamoring for the eyes and ears of those a the FCC, as WISPs need to get to.The fight is not only on the federal level, but also at the state and local levels as well. I'm still not sure exactly what your point is here. I understand the need to talk to all levels of government, but if we're going to take the mindset that all mandates and rules are Holy and Untouchable, then what is the point? 95% of what WISPA should be doing should be DEFENSIVE from an overreaching government agency of some kind. And it seems the present leadership has absolutely NO interest in defense at all, just playing looky, I got to talk to the Holy Ones in DC game, some kind of hat in hand subservence... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, in relation to a previous statement about CALEA being good for WISPA: I can find NO benefit to it of ANY kind. Nor has anyone I know of explained a single benefit, ever. It is a mandate on how a network must function, a limitation to equipment, software, topology, and redundancy, and an absurd notion in the first place. It is a direct requirement to dumb-down and overbuild bandwidth, with NO return of ANY kind, financial or otherwise. From my perspective, almost everyone in the WISP industry got broadsided by the whole CALEA thing... But by the time everyone was aware of the requirements, it was too late to do anything meaningful as far as the rules themselves. What WISPA did was diffuse a potentially very bad and very expensive situation for WISP's. In short, the standards which WISPA developed and got approved basically says that you have to be able to packet sniff the data and provide it to the LEA. One actual statement in the APPROVED standard says: In unusual cases it may be impossible to perform one or more of these functions. The WISP is expected to make a best effort attempt to satisfy these requirements. It doesn't say you have to redesign your network. It doesn't say you have to dumb down a network. It doesn't say you have to overbuild bandwidth. Go ahead read the standard.. and realize that the ability to comply with this very easy to comply with standard is your safe harbor all thanks to the hard work provided by WISPA. You can choose how much you want to do to prepare. True, you may have to go put a packet sniffer at an AP site in response to a intercept request, but I suspect that would have been the case before CALEA as well. -forrest WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
Thank You , Forrest. Concise and to the point. Ron Wallace Hahnron, Inc. 220 S. Jackson Dt. Addison, MI 49220 Phone: (517)547-8410 Mobile: (517)270-2410 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Forrest W Christian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 02:52 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, in relation to a previous statement about CALEA being good for WISPA: I can find NO benefit to it of ANY kind. Nor has anyone I know of explained a single benefit, ever. It is a mandate on how a network must function, a limitation to equipment, software, topology, and redundancy, and an absurd notion in the first place. It is a direct requirement to dumb-down and overbuild bandwidth, with NO return of ANY kind, financial or otherwise. From my perspective, almost everyone in the WISP industry got broadsided by the whole CALEA thing... But by the time everyone was aware of the requirements, it was too late to do anything meaningful as far as the rules themselves. What WISPA did was diffuse a potentially very bad and very expensive situation for WISP's. In short, the standards which WISPA developed and got approved basically says that you have to be able to packet sniff the data and provide it to the LEA. One actual statement in the APPROVED standard says: In unusual cases it may be impossible to perform one or more of these functions. The WISP is expected to make a best effort attempt to satisfy these requirements. It doesn't say you have to redesign your network. It doesn't say you have to dumb down a network. It doesn't say you have to overbuild bandwidth. Go ahead read the standard.. and realize that the ability to comply with this very easy to comply with standard is your safe harbor all thanks to the hard work provided by WISPA. You can choose how much you want to do to prepare. True, you may have to go put a packet sniffer at an AP site in response to a intercept request, but I suspect that would have been the case before CALEA as well. -forrest WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: [EMAIL PROTECTED] pa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking
Forrest, the notion that some networks can't be sniffed was certainly given some time back when and somewhat addressed - although more along the lines of why on earth would you NOT have a single point of failure network?, as if that's a good thing. I'd like to note that according to recent commentary by WISPA leadership, you WILL either fully comply... Or else. That was only a temporary stop-gap, and you were expected to make your system fully compliant over time. BTW, where's the This network topology cannot be made compliant option on the filing you're required to do? Oh, wait, no such LEGAL provision exists for reporting purposes. Again, you have not made the case that CALEA is good in any way. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Forrest W Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 11:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Topic change - Trade Association Was: Report: FCCtoPunishComcast Over Web Blocking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, in relation to a previous statement about CALEA being good for WISPA: I can find NO benefit to it of ANY kind. Nor has anyone I know of explained a single benefit, ever. It is a mandate on how a network must function, a limitation to equipment, software, topology, and redundancy, and an absurd notion in the first place. It is a direct requirement to dumb-down and overbuild bandwidth, with NO return of ANY kind, financial or otherwise. From my perspective, almost everyone in the WISP industry got broadsided by the whole CALEA thing... But by the time everyone was aware of the requirements, it was too late to do anything meaningful as far as the rules themselves. What WISPA did was diffuse a potentially very bad and very expensive situation for WISP's. In short, the standards which WISPA developed and got approved basically says that you have to be able to packet sniff the data and provide it to the LEA. One actual statement in the APPROVED standard says: In unusual cases it may be impossible to perform one or more of these functions. The WISP is expected to make a best effort attempt to satisfy these requirements. It doesn't say you have to redesign your network. It doesn't say you have to dumb down a network. It doesn't say you have to overbuild bandwidth. Go ahead read the standard.. and realize that the ability to comply with this very easy to comply with standard is your safe harbor all thanks to the hard work provided by WISPA. You can choose how much you want to do to prepare. True, you may have to go put a packet sniffer at an AP site in response to a intercept request, but I suspect that would have been the case before CALEA as well. -forrest WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
