Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Mike Rooney wrote: > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 10:42 PM, mac_v wrote: >> Scott Kitterman wrote: >>> On the other hand, fast boot is an explicit Ubuntu design goal for a >>> variety of reasons including users typically start their computers because >>> they want to use them. >>> >>> Before getting too

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:21 AM, David Siegel wrote: > Also, as there is no user state before login, we can reboot the machine > without user confirmation. With fast-boot and KMS, we completely remove the > pain from rebooting after updates -- in fact, the user probably won't even > notice the rebo

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Steve Dodier wrote: > What about console-presenter and evince / other PDF viewers ? They're > used too for presentations. I don't think we can maintain an > exhaustive list of applications, so maybe we should provide the user > with a GUI to tell which apps shouldn

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Hi, 2009/7/7 Martín Soto : > How many applications are there that are *commonly* used for giving > presentations? Five? Ten, maybe? How many web browsers are in main? Given cloud based presentation such as Google Docs, they can all be used to give presentations, and I suspect can all be made to g

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Martín Soto ha scritto: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Steve Dodier > wrote: What about console-presenter and evince / other PDF viewers ? They're used too for presentations. I don't think we can maintain an exhaustive list of applications, so maybe we sh

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

So is it possible to know *before* when a reboot will be required ? Very likely yes, right ? It only happens when hardware drivers and kernel get updated ? The packages list is updated when the computer is turned on, anyway, but let's assume Mr. User didn't do his updates Monday, then Tuesday he c

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

You are right and hence the only sane way of solving the problem seems to be to give user the control to seta global do-not-disturb mode when he needs it and logging the messages that he misses.This has several advantages such as 1. No need to predict anything as predictions go wrong a lot. 2. Si

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:49 AM, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > Second, I think we want to do some useful inference of busyness. I like the > fullscreen idea and was a promoter of that, but I think there have been > compelling counter-arguments on this list. > The problem with fullscreen is that it i

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Hello Vincenzo: 2009/7/7 Vincenzo Ciancia > Martin: it suffers from the same problem as full-screen movies. If I am > preparing for a presentation, I can be interrupted by mom, and if I don't > want it I can set my state to busy. If I am actually showing the > presentation, then I certainly don'

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

2009/7/7 Martín Soto : > Take a look at my last message to this thread: I think it addresses your > point much better. In summary, I think we should not pay so much attention > to the data source, but to the data destination. If you're displaying to the > TV or to a projector, you'd rather not have

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Alex Launi wrote: > Whether or not it asks you, the idea is still flawed. Shutting off your > computer is an, "ok- I'm finished" activity. It's really not safe to > walk away during an update. David and Ivanka are working Friday evening, > 18h roles around and it's more than time to leave. They go

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Martín Soto wrote: >> > Third, I think we want some way for the user to influence this, but > we want it to be systemic (i.e. ONE knob for the WHOLE system, not > knobs-per-app-per-condition). We've talked about using the presence > state that is exposed in the FUSA work that Ted G

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:44:33 +0100 Mark Shuttleworth wrote: >Scott Kitterman wrote: >> On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 05:49:16 +0100 Mark Shuttleworth >> wrote: >> ... >> >>> In this initiative, I want us to take a different approach. We will strip >>> >> away non-essential decisions from the us

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 12:55 PM, mac_v wrote: > Why do they have to wait! there is no need , it is just > install+shutdown! User just selected install and shutdown! > We Just Make sure we send proper updates. Also... we can set rules that > if the shutdown stalls for x mins , cause a forced shutd

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Praveen wrote: > You are right and hence the only sane way of solving the problem seems to > be to give user the control to seta global do-not-disturb mode when he > needs it and logging the messages that he misses.This has several > advantages such as > > 1. No

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

2009/7/7 Matt Wheeler > 2009/7/7 Martín Soto : > > Take a look at my last message to this thread: I think it addresses your > > point much better. In summary, I think we should not pay so much > attention > > to the data source, but to the data destination. If you're displaying to > the > > TV or

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Alex Launi wrote: > Leaving the computer while it's still working is /very/ likely to cause > a sense of discomfort, and chances are people will stick around and wait > for it to finish. As you say, "chances are" i.e> user *can wait* but is not forced to, but for a login update user *has to wait*

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 2009/7/7 mac_v : > As you say, "chances are" i.e> user *can wait* but is not forced to, > but for a login update user *has to wait* . > > Login update is a forced behavior. while the shutdown is the users > option to stick around! Why is it forced?

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Il 07/07/2009 12:55, mac_v ha scritto: Why do they have to wait! there is no need , it is just install+shutdown! User just selected install and shutdown! I just don't trust the system enough to guarantee it will shut down, and don't trust an old laptop I use at office enough to be sure that it

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Il 07/07/2009 13:30, Martín Soto ha scritto: I see a big one: you can easily forget activating the do-not-disturb thing, or deactivating it later. For example, unless you're a very experienced speaker, you're likely to be nervous before starting a presentation. This increases the probability tha

[Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

Il 07/07/2009 15:07, Praveen ha scritto: no please don't do such a thing. it takes away a lot of benefits of the new messaging system. ie i can from the notification know what the other person has to say and hence decide if i want to open the chat window now or later. Also if the messages should

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Siegfried Gevatter wrote: > 2009/7/7 mac_v : >> As you say, "chances are" i.e> user *can wait* but is not forced to, >> but for a login update user *has to wait* . > >> Login update is a forced behavior. while the shutdown is the users >> option to stick around! > > Why is it forced? If I underst

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Martín Soto wrote: > > I see a big one: you can easily forget activating the do-not-disturb > thing, or deactivating it later. For example, unless you're a very > experienced speaker, you're likely to be nervous before starting a > presentation. This increases the probability that you forget that

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:18 PM, mac_v wrote: > Well... the user has to update at some point, right. > > Even if he chooses to ignore it for now, he has to do it again at some > time. We are forcing him to wait,. He will have to sit idle , waiting > for the system to update. > > While the shutdown

Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

Il 07/07/2009 15:19, Praveen ha scritto: hmm.. not a bad idea though one must consider that this one initial notification will be always displayed whenever one goes fullscreen. so if i watch a lot of movies or am review/editing a presentation i would be going to fullscreen and back so many many t

Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

Isn't this whole discussion of a presentation mode making the issue more complex than it needs to be? I would think that taking an application into full-screen allows us to safely assume the user is making the following statement: "this application is the only thing I'm interested in right now".

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:22 PM, mac_v wrote: > The users cant/shouldnt expect everything to be spoon fed! The Option is > there! just because the user forgets ,it isnt a design flaw. > > A crash is not the error of the car manufacturer but the driver, the > manufacturer has provided the breaks it

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Em Ter, 2009-07-07 às 13:49 +0200, Martín Soto escreveu: > > Also, future versions of X/Gnome wil automatically offer a > configuration box as soon as you plug in a monitor. We can consider > asking the user once at that point if this is a projector. The UI for > doing this would have to be very

Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Sohail Mirza wrote: > I would think that taking an application into full-screen allows us to > safely assume the user is making the following statement: "this application > is the only thing I'm interested in right now". It follows from this that > non-critical n

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Em Ter, 2009-07-07 às 13:30 +0200, Martín Soto escreveu: > > I see a big one: you can easily forget activating the do-not-disturb > thing, or deactivating it later. For example, unless you're a very > experienced speaker, you're likely to be nervous before starting a > presentation. This increase

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:12:24 +0530 mac_v wrote: >So is there a way to mark the packages which require reboot , and Not >start them during the boot , but to update them and this would just >*delay the boot by a few seconds during which the present icon is shown* > The current mechanism involves to

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

2009/7/7 Paulo J. S. Silva > You know, if turning off the notifications was easy (is it?), that would > count as a simple papercut! > It would be with a global "do not disturb mode" in FUSA! -- --Alex Launi ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ay

Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

Il 07/07/2009 15:29, Sohail Mirza ha scritto: I hope I'm not missing anything in my analysis. Is there a use-case of a full-screen application that does not offer window maximization as an alternative? We talked about movies. I may be just watching a movie alone and want to be available for

Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

Il 07/07/2009 15:35, Alex Launi ha scritto: I know many people who do this. Netbook users do this all the time. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Mo

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:22 PM, mac_v wrote: > The users cant/shouldnt expect everything to be spoon fed! The Option is > there! just because the user forgets ,it isnt a design flaw. > I wonder what sort of design philosophy you're advocating here. One where we refrain from automating things tha

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: > Em Ter, 2009-07-07 às 13:49 +0200, Martín Soto escreveu: > > Also, future versions of X/Gnome wil automatically offer a > > configuration box as soon as you plug in a monitor. We can consider > > asking the user once at that point if this

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Martín Soto wrote: > > I will just refrain from falling into the "Mark said" type of > argumentation (see /argumentum ad verecundiam [1]*)*/ > I used it since i remember the users name , also.. you can note i used ScottK's name earlier , its not about authority , but just a valid point raised b

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

2009/7/7 mac_v > Martín Soto wrote: > > People also present to a small group by just using the normal screen. > > I just felt too much thought is being put into this, this only leads to > more bloat of the app... But if a highly intuitive simple system is to > be designed , which is atleast 90% p

Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

First off, netbooks are not a fair use-case for this discussion. The limitations of the form-factor may require entirely a different solution to common problems. This much is apparent when comparing Ubuntu Desktop to Ubuntu Netbook Remix. Now, if you're watching a full-screen movie *and* waiting

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Alex Launi wrote: > If your car > manufacturer provides *brakes*, but puts them somewhere inaccessible, > where you can't get to them quickly in an emergency, it's a design flaw. > I think the UX team can place the brakes perfectly in the right position ;) cheers, mac_v __

Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Sohail Mirza wrote: > First off, netbooks are not a fair use-case for this discussion. The > limitations of the form-factor may require entirely a different solution to > common problems. This much is apparent when comparing Ubuntu Desktop to > Ubuntu Netbook Rem

Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Alex Launi wrote: > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Sohail Mirza wrote: > >> First off, netbooks are not a fair use-case for this discussion. The >> limitations of the form-factor may require entirely a different solution to >> common problems. This much is app

Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

Il 07/07/2009 16:39, Sohail Mirza ha scritto: The limitations of the form-factor may require entirely a different solution to common problems. This much is apparent when comparing Ubuntu Desktop to Ubuntu Netbook Remix. The EEEPC 1000HE has a 10'' screen on which the default gnome desktop is

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

What about putting up a notification when someone goes into fullscreen mode that notifications are enabled and will be displayed, as a reminder that they might want to disable them? Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing

Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

Il 07/07/2009 17:34, Sohail Mirza ha scritto: Weighed against the configuration set and dialogues being proposing, I still think that "full-screen = I'm busy" is a reasonable assumption to make with the vast majority of the user population. I would venture a guess that most users don't even use

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

This idea was brought by someone else on this list today and the problem is that a typical user goes fullscreen and back many many times even on a single day especially in and hence each time i watch a movie, or want firefox in fullscreen if i get a notification it is very much annoying. also afte

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Il 07/07/2009 17:40, Mark Shuttleworth ha scritto: What about putting up a notification when someone goes into fullscreen mode that notifications are enabled and will be displayed, as a reminder that they might want to disable them? This was just discussed in another thread, with he _

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Il 07/07/2009 17:40, Mark Shuttleworth ha scritto: What about putting up a notification when someone goes into fullscreen mode that notifications are enabled and will be displayed, as a reminder that they might want to disable them? Mark The subthread "solving the 'user forgets about presen

Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > Come on, forget about presentations, my mother does not do that. Ok, except that the title of this thread has the word presentation. Presentations are a VERY common use activity. Your mom might not, but mine does- often- quite possibly da

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Il 07/07/2009 17:50, Vincenzo Ciancia ha scritto: Il 07/07/2009 17:40, Mark Shuttleworth ha scritto: What about putting up a notification when someone goes into fullscreen mode that notifications are enabled and will be displayed, as a reminder that they might want to disable them? This was j

Re: [Ayatana] Solving the "user forgets about presentation mode" problem! (was Re: notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors)

To be quite honest, if the movie is any good, I will likely miss the notification anyways... but that's just me! :) If I really wanted to watch something while waiting for a particular notification, I would probably keep exiting full-screen to double-check my email/IM manually (I could've missed

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

An additional problem is that the reminder notification might be missed, and the consequence (a notification popping up during a presentation) would be more detrimental than wholesale blocking all notifications while presenting. On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Praveen wrote: > This idea was bro

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Em Ter, 2009-07-07 às 11:14 +0200, Steve Dodier escreveu: > I know that in most cases this is not needed since the update will > happen well, but i think its better to make users expect to have to > act. If their mirror goes down, if debconf asks if a file should be > merged, if a dep is broken, i

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Paulo J. S. Silva ha scritto: Em Ter, 2009-07-07 às 11:14 +0200, Steve Dodier escreveu: I know that in most cases this is not needed since the update will happen well, but i think its better to make users expect to have to act. If their mirror goes down, if debconf asks if a file should be m

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

On Tue, 2009-07-07 at 06:44 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > You know, classically, this was a GNOME vs KDE value, but I don't > believe it is that any more. I've seen KDE folks increasingly aligned > with this value too. Yes, for front end user interaction I would always say that we should selec

[Ayatana] The old "installer getting stuck at 82%" issue :-)

Hello, I was wondering if bug/wishlist 294523 [1], about the installer (Ubuntu, Kubuntu possibly others) which "gets stuck at 82%" for long periods during installation thereby ruining the install experience, has been looked at by anyone for the Karmic release? I had tried to mark it as a papercut

Re: [Ayatana] The old "installer getting stuck at 82%" issue :-)

Hello, The 82% step is the one when the installer looks for a mirror, and it's the first step to download the user's locale in order to have a fully translated Ubuntu. The locale download part has a "Cancel" button in case it's too long, but the 82% one doesn't. I reported this to the developers of

Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors

Martin Owens wrote: > Hopefully you didn't mean that we'd gladdy sacrifice elegance of code > and flexibility of programming structure in order to artificially > restrict the expressed options. Which is how I read your reply at first. > Elegance? No. Options? Perhaps. Every code path needs tes

Re: [Ayatana] The old "installer getting stuck at 82%" issue :-)

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Steve Dodier wrote: > Hello, > The 82% step is the one when the installer looks for a mirror, and it's the > first step to download the user's locale in order to have a fully translated > Ubuntu. The locale download part has a "Cancel" button in case it's too > lo