Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Le dimanche 31 mai 2009, à 09:42 +0200, Dave Neary a écrit : > So, I've detailed my vision, with two major changes: > - include foundation members in the daily running of the foundation by > having the majority of board business happen in the open on > foundation-list, including having the work

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Hey, (Coming late to the party -- was away from computer for some time, and then I had to catch up with things...) Doing some combo reply, because I don't want to spam everybody. On the topic of whether the board should enforce the code of conduct, resolve issues between people, "blame" people,

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Jamie McCracken says: I dont think there is a problem in the community to be honest I think that the most serious problem facing the community right now is our budget. With the added expenses of having more employees, we really need to figure out how to be more frugal, find new sources of inc

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

john palmieri wrote: > > The board should not mire itself in conflict resolution like this, just > like it does not make technical decitions. The boards role is to obtain > and distribute resources and make sure those resources are used in > efficent ways. That is enormous power as it is. Givi

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

I dont think there is a problem in the community to be honest whilst some people do have strong opinions and there are indeed factions within gnome which can be very vocal, I dont think anyone can say gnome has truly poisonous and destructive people. Sure some poeple can come across as arrogant

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 05:13:44PM -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > On 06/02/2009 05:56 AM, Olav Vitters wrote: >> - just doing something (infrastructure) is*way* better than trying to >>discuss it on d-d-l. No idea why, maybe because I explain it badly, >>but I view discussing things on d-

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On 06/02/2009 05:56 AM, Olav Vitters wrote: - just doing something (infrastructure) is*way* better than trying to discuss it on d-d-l. No idea why, maybe because I explain it badly, but I view discussing things on d-d-l as a waste of time. Which is not quite surprising. You wouldn't get

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Tue, 2009-06-02 at 12:52 +0100, Paul Cooper wrote: > However you seem to flat out deny that there is a problem so I'm not > sure what I, or anyone else, can do to convince you that this is a real > issue. Paul, I don't have to be convinced that some of the people are no experts in communic

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:59 AM, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, > > john palmieri wrote: > >> I'm of the same mind here. There are a number of people who I don't like >> to read on blogs and whatnot but I would rather us as a community figure out >> productive ways of dealing with it as opposed to lordi

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Hi Dave, 2009/6/2 Dave Neary : > Hi, > > john palmieri wrote: >> >> I'm of the same mind here.  There are a number of people who I don't like >> to read on blogs and whatnot but I would rather us as a community figure out >> productive ways of dealing with it as opposed to lording our own views ov

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dave Neary a écrit : > I believe that these people should have a group that they can turn to, > argue their points, and ask for that group to do something about it. Doing something about it, doesn't necessarily mean going the police route. Things are

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Mon, 2009-06-01 at 12:30 +0200, Philip Van Hoof wrote: > On Mon, 2009-06-01 at 11:04 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: [snip] > Just look at the replies from people: there's an almost unanimous > agreement that our community is doing just fine. Why are you trying to > fix anything? There is no problem. I

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 07:59:47AM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > reasons why they might happen. Ignoring the rest, I'll just share my thoughts on ability to discuss things on mailing lists. > Let me be as clear as possible: > > There are people in our community who are losing faith in the > commun

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Mon, 2009-06-01 at 13:43 +, Benjamin Otte wrote: > I have a problem here. I am not sure I have a clear idea of what "type > of > interaction" is causing these issues. I don't know what triggered the discussion this time either, so this might be totally irrelevant: We do have a real problem

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Hi, john palmieri wrote: I'm of the same mind here. There are a number of people who I don't like to read on blogs and whatnot but I would rather us as a community figure out productive ways of dealing with it as opposed to lording our own views over those who don't have as much pull in the c

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

I'm of the same mind here. There are a number of people who I don't like to read on blogs and whatnot but I would rather us as a community figure out productive ways of dealing with it as opposed to lording our own views over those who don't have as much pull in the community. Red tape and dracon

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On 05/31/2009 07:17 PM, Olav Vitters wrote: You mean how someone should behave? What is socially acceptable somewhere is totally not acceptable elsewhere (eating with mouth open and making noises). Every time I'm in major airports, can't help but notice the HSBC 'Your Point of View' ads. Che

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Stormy Peters gmail.com> writes: > I too have found the GNOME community to be extremely welcoming. I got met at > my first GUADEC in 2001 with "You're a girl!" from a very excited woman > manning the registration desk.But I can't ignore the fact that people are > leaving our community or being

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Mon, 2009-06-01 at 13:06 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Here's the nut of the issue. > > I want the board to protect people from being shouted down by people who > disagree with them. > > You want the board to not make waves among the shouters. I think an ombudsman wouldn't be a bad idea. W

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Mon, 2009-06-01 at 12:30 +0200, Philip Van Hoof wrote: > What do you think will happen in reality once you do that? > > Flowers and sugar? Happiness and joy? Group laughter? Babies?! > > That would be quite naive to hope for, wouldn't it? okay, I now think it's time for me to come out and fi

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Hi, Philip Van Hoof wrote: You publicly embarrassed an individual at item number two. And no, you can't make your item number two look any better by trying to escape it. The person will hate you, will hate the board and will start persuading other people to join him. And for many people he

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Mon, 2009-06-01 at 11:04 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > > Dave's ten steps mean that as soon as you refuse to publicly apologize > > for , his foundation board will kick you > > and your project out of GNOME. > > "My ten steps" were, as I pointed out, a list of measures which I feel > te boad s

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Philip Van Hoof wrote: May I add to this: Dave's ten steps mean that as soon as you refuse to publicly apologize for , his foundation board will kick you and your project out of GNOME. "My ten steps" were, as I pointed out, a list of measures which I feel te boad should have at its disposi

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 07:33:07AM -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: > Sometimes people say inappropriate things in inappropriate tones on GNOME > forums, irc, mailing lists, blogs, etc. Right now, the community just lets > them. We don't enforce our Standards of Conduct. That is somewhat overstated: 1.

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On 31/05/2009, at 11:28 AM, Glynn Foster wrote: On 31/05/2009, at 6:53 AM, Philip Van Hoof wrote: [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Waugh#Criticism I'm rather stunned by this entry. I don't believe Jeff deserves this treatment, nor do I think it's a healthy thing to encourage (a quick

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On 31/05/2009, at 6:53 AM, Philip Van Hoof wrote: [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Waugh#Criticism I'm rather stunned by this entry. I don't believe Jeff deserves this treatment, nor do I think it's a healthy thing to encourage (a quick browse through various other GNOME contributors

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 18:02, Andreas Nilsson wrote: > Dave Neary wrote: >> >> I have said that the foundation has a role to enable people to attend >> conferences. In the special case of GUADEC, we are very generous in that >> role. But I think we've been too generous - just because we are enabl

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Philip Van Hoof wrote: We are trying to fix a non-existing problem. Before I started to contribute to GNOME, I had this idea of GNOME as a Community of Angry People (but not as angry as Debian). I have been proven wrong many times since then, but I sometimes wonder if this is still the case

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Dave Neary wrote: I have said that the foundation has a role to enable people to attend conferences. In the special case of GUADEC, we are very generous in that role. But I think we've been too generous - just because we are enabling someone to attend a conference doesn't mean we should pay 10

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On 05/31/2009 04:27 AM, Dave Neary wrote: In other instances, you suggested people paying a minimum 200euros of their trip. Your argument has been that foundation sponsorship should not cover all the expenses of going to GUADEC. You know what, it *doesn't*. Eating for a week at a conference co

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Philip Van Hoof wrote: [...] > > We are trying to fix a non-existing problem. > I dont know about the rest of you but for me this is a touchy emotional subject, its really painful, and we all did go through it before, it died with this Code of Conduct publication

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Sun, 2009-05-31 at 07:47 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: [CUT] > But I think we are still arguing over whether or not we have a > problem ... (and I really wish we were talking about Dave's original > email - "what would you like to see from the Foundation" because I for > one would really like t

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Sat, 2009-05-30 at 06:10 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: > I've gotten a lot of email offlist about this. > > Several people reminded me that we have a code of conduct, > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct. > > While I think the majority of GNOME interactions comply with it, I > think it's not ve

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Ruben Vermeersch wrote: > > Do we really have such a huge problem that the process of punishing, > kicking or simply reprimand bad behaving individuals needs to be > institutionalized? > > I have always had the impression that the GNOME community is one of the > c

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Sun, 2009-05-31 at 07:33 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: > Sometimes people say inappropriate things in inappropriate tones on > GNOME forums, irc, mailing lists, blogs, etc. Right now, the community > just lets them. We don't enforce our Standards of Conduct. > > Dave was pointing out what we do h

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Philip, Sometimes people say inappropriate things in inappropriate tones on GNOME forums, irc, mailing lists, blogs, etc. Right now, the community just lets them. We don't enforce our Standards of Conduct. Dave was pointing out what we do have the power to do something about it. If we decide to e

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 23:42 +0100, Lucas Rocha wrote: [CUT] > I don't see the Board as community moderators. Really. I tend to agree > that some communication channels (especially mailing lists) get a bit > too noisy some times. This makes some highly active contributors to > stay away from certa

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On 05/31/2009 04:27 AM, Dave Neary wrote: It's not. But over the past year, we've got one or two such complaints. And we have not ignored them. I don't think I have to disclose the details. I don't see any benefits in making them public either. Or do you mean the punishment should include public

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Hi again, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Ask them each to write to the board so the board knows. I'm not a huge fan of making decisions based on "there are many, I know, but I can't reveal their names", sorry. I was hoping a public discussion would give the silent majority the opportunity to speak

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Hi Dave, Thanks for the response. On 05/31/2009 03:42 AM, Dave Neary wrote: So, I've detailed my vision, with two major changes: > - include foundation members in the daily running of the foundation by having the majority of board business happen in the open on foundation-list, including havi

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Hi Behdad, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Note: this is a personal response. I may disclose information only available to the board, but in no way any line in this message represents board's opinion. For the record, I don't expect the board to take a position on this - I do hope that prominent fou

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 9:29 AM, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: > > > Im taking it that the majority of this discomfort is coming from the > planet website > as opposed to the official mailing lists or the mailing lists of > important projects. Well nobody is coming out and saying if it is planet o

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

2009/5/30 Stormy Peters : > So my "freedom of speech" comment was not well written. > > I do think anyone has the right to say what they want, but if they want to > be heard they have to think about their tone. (I was trying to explain why > someone might want to moderate their tone even if they th

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

So my "freedom of speech" comment was not well written. I do think anyone has the right to say what they want, but if they want to be heard they have to think about their tone. (I was trying to explain why someone might want to moderate their tone even if they think it's ok.) I don't think everyo

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Sat, 30 May 2009 10:27:00 -0400 Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > On 05/30/2009 08:10 AM, Stormy Peters wrote: > > > (And we have lost members of our community because we haven't enforced > > that Code of Conduct.) > > How accurate is that statement? I know of at least one example therefore it is ac

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

I've heard from two. They at least still read the list but I haven't seen them in any other forum. Stormy On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > On 05/30/2009 08:10 AM, Stormy Peters wrote: > > (And we have lost members of our community because we haven't enforced >> that Co

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On 05/30/2009 08:10 AM, Stormy Peters wrote: (And we have lost members of our community because we haven't enforced that Code of Conduct.) How accurate is that statement? behdad Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org ht

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

I've gotten a lot of email offlist about this. Several people reminded me that we have a code of conduct, http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct. While I think the majority of GNOME interactions comply with it, I think it's not very actively enforced when someone doesn't comply. I believe it's the G

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 18:25 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi all, > > So - this is perhaps not the best time to start this discussion, but > then again maybe it's absolutely the best time. This is a call to > foundation members who are happy, unhappy or disaffected to say what > they think the fou

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Hi Dave, (This is just my personal opinion. No official Foundation Board hat here...) As I said on irc today, I like your message. It's your way to present your expectations towards the board and how you think the Foundation could be better as an organization. I think feedback from Foundation mem

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Dave: So - this is perhaps not the best time to start this discussion, but then again maybe it's absolutely the best time. This is a call to foundation members who are happy, unhappy or disaffected to say what they think the foundation should be doing that it isn't, shouldn't be doing that i

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

/me puts board hat on Sometimes a little nudge is all we need :). The story behind the minutes is that when Luis ran for board and was elected and named himself secretary, the rest of us were thinking "hurray, we have a dedicated person taking notes and publishing them." But I think we all ag

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

2009/5/29 Stormy Peters : > So I'm hearing Dave say we need more policing and Philip saying everything > is ok. What do others think? > Well, if anyone wants some perspective, its not like we havent been through all this before: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-May/thread.htm

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

In this case, how about bringing a foundation member in and have them do minutes? sri On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 5:37 AM, Murray Cumming wrote: > On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 17:45 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > That's exactly correct. Another term for it is 'volunteer'. :) You're > > certainly welcome to

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Note: this is a personal response. I may disclose information only available to the board, but in no way any line in this message represents board's opinion. On 05/28/2009 12:25 PM, Dave Neary wrote: So - this is perhaps not the best time to start this discussion, but then again maybe it's

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On 05/29/2009 01:29 PM, BJörn Lindqvist wrote: Is planet.gnome.org managed by the Foundation? I thought that site still was Jeff Waugh's baby. Lucas Rocha and Vincent Untz are now also co-editors. That mean 3 volunteers take care of it. Hub ___ fo

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

2009/5/29 Philip Van Hoof : > The problem would be that this was possible. However, let me quote you > the bottom of planet.gnome.org: > > Quote: >  - Planet GNOME is a window into the world, work and lives of GNOME >  - hackers and contributors. >  - >  - Blog entries aggregated on this page are o

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

2009/5/29 Philip Van Hoof : > On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 10:45 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: > >> So I'm hearing Dave say we need more policing and Philip saying >> everything is ok. What do others think? > > That's basically indeed what I'm saying: > > Let's just do normal. There's nothing fundamentally

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 10:45 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: > So I'm hearing Dave say we need more policing and Philip saying > everything is ok. What do others think? That's basically indeed what I'm saying: Let's just do normal. There's nothing fundamentally going wrong. Why are we trying to fix a

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

So I'm hearing Dave say we need more policing and Philip saying everything is ok. What do others think? Does the community think everything is ok? Or if not, do they want to self police or delegate taking action to the board? (Or both.) Philip, I agree that your blog is yours, but supposedly you

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 16:46 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Philip Van Hoof wrote: > As every opinion of me is looked as being aggressive, it's no longer possible for me to have this discussion in a constructive kind of way. -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof do

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Murray Cumming wrote: > On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 17:45 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > That's exactly correct. Another term for it is 'volunteer'. :) You're > > certainly welcome to volunteer to improve it yourself, of course. > > It's far beneath her abilities, but can

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Philip Van Hoof wrote: If someone is behaving in a way which is negatively affecting a significant portion of the GNOME community, Then that significant portion of the GNOME community should be grown up enough to understand that the behaviour of an individual doesn't mean that you need to

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 18:25 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > I think that the foundation should be more involved in conflict > resolution and policing the tone of the community. > I have talked to too many people who don't read pgo, or have turned off > individual blogs, don't use IRC any more, or avo

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 17:45 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > That's exactly correct. Another term for it is 'volunteer'. :) You're > certainly welcome to volunteer to improve it yourself, of course. It's far beneath her abilities, but can't you delegate the minutes-taking to our paid employee? -- murr

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

Hi, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Dave Neary > wrote: I think that the foundation should be more involved in conflict resolution and policing the tone of the community. What would you do then? I guess ultimately I don't know what hap

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 3:53 PM, Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak wrote: >> I would like to see greater financial and administrative transparency. I > > ... >> >> I want to see seven board members actively communicating, and I want to > > ... >> >> front, don't fight in public, and publish/announce/... -

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: > > In these hard times, we should do whatever we can to keep ourselves in the > red. Being part of a conference committee I can well understand what it > means on deciding on what is important to spend money on. Money should > always be

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

I would like to see greater financial and administrative transparency. I ... I want to see seven board members actively communicating, and I want to ... front, don't fight in public, and publish/announce/... - in short, broadcast to the membership what they're working on. My only complaint w

Re: What do you think of the foundation?

OK, I'll bite. I was going to run for the board but I haven't been particularly active due to work and school combo. (although I must object that mailing list participation as indicator of how fit you are as a board member, talk is cheap) My comments inline: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Dav

What do you think of the foundation?

Hi all, So - this is perhaps not the best time to start this discussion, but then again maybe it's absolutely the best time. This is a call to foundation members who are happy, unhappy or disaffected to say what they think the foundation should be doing that it isn't, shouldn't be doing that