Re: [Haskell-cafe] Why monad tutorials don't work

2007-08-14 Thread Michael Vanier
Bill Wood wrote: On Tue, 2007-08-14 at 16:02 -0700, Dan Piponi wrote: . . . On 8/14/07, Michael Vanier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm reminded of a physics teacher who was having a similar problem explaining the concept of tensors, until he said that "a tensor is something that transforms

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Why monad tutorials don't work

2007-08-14 Thread Bill Wood
On Tue, 2007-08-14 at 16:02 -0700, Dan Piponi wrote: . . . > On 8/14/07, Michael Vanier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm reminded of > > a physics teacher who was having a similar problem explaining the concept > > of tensors, until he said > > that "a tensor is something that transforms lik

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Why monad tutorials don't work

2007-08-14 Thread Erik Jones
On 8/14/07, Michael Vanier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm becoming more and more convinced that metaphors for monads do more harm > than good. From now on > I'm going to describe monads as purely abstract entities that obey certain > laws, and that _in > certain instances_ can be viewed to be lik

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Why monad tutorials don't work

2007-08-14 Thread Dan Piponi
On 8/14/07, Dan Weston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Conor McBride and Ross Paterson said it best in the introduction to > their paper "Applicative programming with effects" [1]: As von Neumann said: "Young man, in mathematics you don't understand things, you just get used to them." Getting used t

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Why monad tutorials don't work

2007-08-14 Thread Michael Vanier
As you know, an arrow tutorial is like a wrapper around a monad tutorial, sort of like a container around it that can do extra actions with sufficient lifting. The appropriate higher-order function to convert monad tutorials to arrow tutorials will be left as an exercise to the reader. I'm

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Why monad tutorials don't work

2007-08-14 Thread Dougal Stanton
On 14/08/07, Dan Weston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [snips another metaphor for monadic programming] No offence to Dan, whose post I enjoyed. The concept of wrapping is as close a metaphor as we seem to get without disagreements. But this has brought me to a realisation, after Paul Erdos: The Has