Re: Does it matter if you lock an IP object before updating?

[Kirk Brooks]

Miyako,
On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:16 PM, Keisuke Miyako 
wrote:

> what if another process removed or changed elements while that process is
> working its way though the IP array?
> would that not become a problem?
>
​What would be the difference between adding and deleting an element? ​

​Granted I didn't test that because I wanted an easy metric to measure but
it seems like the same case - the actions appear to be queued by 4D.​

>
> but the problem with multi-threaded access in compiled mode is more
> serious;
> you don't want another thread to use the same register while a thread is
> in the middle of a read/write operation.
>
​Absolutely, as I noted this is only in respect to a single client without
multi-threading.
​


> The "while" loop in your "Lock" method can be an over kill;
>
​That's actually what got me thinking about it. I see it in a number of
databases though. ​And if you were to carry this line of thought to it's
logical conclusion such a lock is to ensure the variable will be written
and accept nothing less - which you wouldn't want to do normally. I was
surprised how little overhead that added. On my macBookPro the un-protected
loops took about 2800ms and the protected ones about 3100ms, interpreted.
It's not a significant performance issue in my view.

 --
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
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Re: Does it matter if you lock an IP object before updating?

[Keisuke Miyako]

I tend to agree,

in general, semaphores should be used to protect "methods" rather than 
"objects".
the method may read/write certain documents or access IP variables,
but that is not the most important issue.

some singleton methods may do neither,
but yet require protection.

> 2016/11/01 14:03、Kirk Brooks  のメール：
> So I'm concluding the whole variable locking fetish is unnecessary.


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Re: Does it matter if you lock an IP object before updating?

[Keisuke Miyako]

what if another process removed or changed elements while that process is 
working its way though the IP array?
would that not become a problem?

but the problem with multi-threaded access in compiled mode is more serious;
you don't want another thread to use the same register while a thread is in the 
middle of a read/write operation.

p.s.

The "while" loop in your "Lock" method can be an over kill;

why not simply

If (Not (Semaphore ("<>aTestArray";$timeout) ) )

//..do something..

CLEAR SEMAPHORE("<>aTestArray")

End if

> 2016/11/01 14:03、Kirk Brooks  のメール：
> So I'm concluding the whole variable locking fetish is unnecessary.


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Does it matter if you lock an IP object before updating?

[Kirk Brooks]

This is the sort of thing I think about while driving home...

I see databases using IP variables use a semaphore/locking scheme before
writing to the variable. Something like this:

Lock_object("objectName")
Append to array(<>myArray;$someValue)
Unlock_object("objectName")


The Lock_object method attempts to set a semaphore. If the semaphore is
already set, indicating another process is attempting to update this
variable at the same time, it waits a tick and this continues until it sets
the semaphore.

I wondered how likely it would be for the situation to arise where two
processes would be attempting to access an IP var at the same time and what
4D would do. So I wrote a little test to investigate. The methods are at
the end for anyone who cares to replicate.

The methodology is to start a process which clears an IP text array. Then I
spin off a number (I used 400) other processes. Each of these waits for the
same time (using milliseconds here) then begins a loop that writes some
identifying data to the text array. I ran the test using object locking and
without.

Overview -

There were no lost updates due to collisions in either test case
Setting the semaphore doesn't take much time, but it takes some

Without adding some delay in the drone loops each loop would complete
before the next one began

To introduce some randomness I delay each drone by 1 or 2 clicks


Limitations

The run times are approximate because the delay command waits for 1 tick,
about 17 ms

I didn't look at the effect on writing to multiple, synchronized arrays

My Takeaway - it doesn't seem like much to worry about in terms of locking
IP variables against lost data due to collisions of multiple processes
attempting to write to the same IP var at the same time. My understanding
of why is because this version of 4D is still single threaded. This is why
400 processes are running 'simultaneously' they actually are queued up by
4D and processed sequentially. This is borne out by the fact that as the
number of drones increases the run time increases proportionally in both
cases. If the un-locked version were able to proceed without a successful
write that version would be significantly faster. It's not. So the number
of drones increases the run time due to queuing regardless of setting or
not setting the semaphore.

This situation would be different in the case of multi-threaded execution -
but you can't use an IP var in that case anyway. Probably for just this
reason.

So I'm concluding the whole variable locking fetish is unnecessary.


The test consists of four methods:

Let's call this one "Test":

ARRAY TEXT(<>aTestArray;0)
  // $determine the start time
$delay:=2
$iterations:=20
$nDrones:=400

$n:=Count user processes  //  benchmark

$ms:=Milliseconds+2000  // add 2 secs to now before drones start

  // start a few other processes
For ($i;1;$nDrones)
drone ($i;$ms;$iterations)
End for

  //  wait a bit for everything to run
While ($naTestArray)
$report:=$report+String($n)+" Missing elements\r"
ALERT($report)


​This is the drone method:

​// drone
C_LONGINT($1;$2;$3;$4)
C_LONGINT($id;$i)
C_TEXT($procName)

Case of
: (Count parameters=3)
$procName:="drone_"+String($1)
$id:=New process(Current method name;0;$procName;$1;$2;$3;Current process)

: (Count parameters=4)  // new process
While (Milliseconds<$2)  // wait for the starting time
DELAY PROCESS(Current process;1)
End while

  // now do the loop
For ($i;1;$3)
APPEND TO ARRAY(<>aTestArray;"Drone "+String($1)+": "+String($i)+"
 "+String(Milliseconds))
If (Milliseconds%2=0)  // introduce some variability
DELAY PROCESS(Current process;1)
Else
DELAY PROCESS(Current process;2)
End if
End for
End case

//droneWithLocking
C_LONGINT($1;$2;$3;$4)
C_LONGINT($id;$i)
C_TEXT($procName)

Case of
: (Count parameters=3)
$procName:="drone_"+String($1)
$id:=New process(Current method name;0;$procName;$1;$2;$3;Current process)

: (Count parameters=4)  // new process
While (Milliseconds<$2)  // wait for the starting time
DELAY PROCESS(Current process;1)
End while

  // now do the loop
For ($i;1;$3)
Lock_object ("<>aTestArray")
APPEND TO ARRAY(<>aTestArray;"Drone "+String($1)+": "+String($i)+"
 "+String(Milliseconds))
Unlock_object ("<>aTestArray")

If (Milliseconds%2=0)  // introduce some variability
DELAY PROCESS(Current process;1)
Else
DELAY PROCESS(Current process;2)
End if
End for
End case


//Lock_object
While (Semaphore("$"+$1))
IDLE
End while

//Unlock_object

CLEAR SEMAPHORE("$"+$1)


-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
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Re: Progressive slow

[Wayne Stewart]

Hi,

Do you have access to the info report component? I think it may only
be available to partners but if you can get it and can be very useful
for examining these sorts of issues.

Regards,

Wayne


Wayne Stewart
about.me/waynestewart




On 1 November 2016 at 07:19, Benedict, Tom  wrote:
> "Dennis, Neil" > writes:
>
>>> Don't think you can do this in 13.x I think max cache size is 2 gig
>
>>Doesn't that depend on the OS? Doesn't 13.x have a 64 bit sever for windows? 
>>Perhaps not, it has been a while since I used 4D v13.
>
> 13.x Server has a 64bit version on Windows.
>
> Tom
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Re: How to use Process Tags with c-objects?

[Kirk Brooks]

Hi Tom,
Yeah, nice summary of working with tags. And yeah I am playing with doing
some processing in the tags after reading Charlie Voss' tech note from last
year or so. In general I build my 4D side methods to generate c-obj/JSON as
output. I was playing with the idea of being able to produce 'html tag
pages' (for a made-up expression) that would do the same work as the
javascript. It's not looking too good for that. I think Process Tags is a
cool feature but not really the solution I'm looking for in this case.

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Tom DeMeo 
wrote:

> Hi Kirk,
> You really have 4 modes you can always work with.
>


-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
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Re: Allow CR in text field

[Bill Weale]

Thank you. There also is a multiline field property that seems to interact with 
that. My issue is trying to *allow* CRs while still applying an entry filter 
via the form or filter editors.

Bill

> On Oct 31, 2016, at 3:16 PM, Bertrand SOUBEYRAND  wrote:
> 
> 
>> Le 31 oct. 2016 à 15:44, Arnaud de Montard  a écrit :
>> 
>> Hi Bill, 
>> the carriage return is not allowed in alpha fields, but allowed natively in 
>> text fields. Did you check that?
> 
> 
> There is a checkbox located in structure mode associated to the field’s 
> properties to avoid CR input.
> 
> 
> Bertrand SOUBEYRAND

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Re: Allow CR in text field

[Douglas von Roeder]

There is a known bug in 13.6 that stops you from entering a carriage
return.

If you are on that version, search the NUG for Tim Penners' code (IIRC)
from late last year.

On Monday, October 31, 2016, Bill Weale  wrote:

> For a text field, is there any entry (other than no entry) we can make
> either in the Entry Filter of a form object’s property list or in the
> filter editor which would allow the entry of a carriage return?
>
> In other words, can this be done without requiring code?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill
>
>
> William W. Weale
>
> Business Owners Support, LLC.
>
> Operations Analysis
> MIS Advising
> Decision Support Systems
>
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Re: Allow CR in text field

[Peter Bozek]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Bill Weale 
wrote:

> It’s 2016 and we’re now all unicode; is there any reason to use a text
> filter at all if I’m not particularly concerned about controlling input?
> Has anyone else seen different behaviors between using no input filter and
> using a blank/null input filter?
>

Not sure how relevant it is, but if you cannot enter new line (return) into
text field, you probably have default button (or button which has Return /
Enter shortcut.)

Regarding Filters and Unicode - I tested entry of é with single key or
combination (´e) and both seems to work OK with 4D (15.2, macOS) in text
field with entry filter. Try to remove filter, but I guess problem should
be somewhere else.

-- 

Peter Bozek
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Re: Progressive slow

[stardata.info]

Hi Chuck,

Db is  4.716.737 Kb

Ram 4GB

" How much assigned to 4D?"  Where i can see this?

On server run: Team Viewer and normal system software
Operating system Windows 2088 R2 Standard.

Thanks
Ferdinando


Il 31/10/2016 20:00, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com ha scritto:

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 13:52:07 -0400
From: Chuck Miller
To: 4DTechList Tech<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Subject: Re: Progressive slow
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

How big is data file? How much memory on the machine? How much assigned to 4D? 
Is there anything else on the server? You should be running 13.6 not 13.3.
Is there something else happening within 4D that might be causing this?

Regards

Chuck

  Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
  Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064
mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com
  Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
   http://www.informed-solutions.com   





>On Oct 28, 2016, at 6:20 PM, stardata.info  wrote:
>
>Hi All,
>
>In one 4D V13.3 application in client server on windows, from some time, i 
notice that some query after some hours of use become slow, if i close and reopen 
the application are new fast.
>
>The database is great
>
>Someone have a suggestion for solve?
>
>Thanks
>Ferdinando
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Re: Allow CR in text field

[Bertrand SOUBEYRAND]

> Le 31 oct. 2016 à 15:44, Arnaud de Montard  a écrit :
> 
> Hi Bill, 
> the carriage return is not allowed in alpha fields, but allowed natively in 
> text fields. Did you check that?


There is a checkbox located in structure mode associated to the field’s 
properties to avoid CR input.


Bertrand SOUBEYRAND
---
La Soub Compagnie
33 bd de la Liberté - 13001 Marseille
Bureau : +33 4 84 25 21 99
http://www.soubeyrand-4d-developer.eu 

Belgique : +32 87 84 00 88




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Re: Progressive slow

[Randy Jaynes]

Whether or not it actually uses it, the v13 server does allow it to be set to 
4000 and shows it in bold as a customized value.

Randy

--
Randy Jaynes
Senior Programmer and Customer Support

http://printpoint.com • (845) 359-0298 • PrintPoint, Inc • 57 Ludlow Lane • 
Palisades, NY 10964 


 

> On Oct 31, 2016, at 1:53 PM, Chuck Miller  
> wrote:
> 
> Don’t think you can do this in 13.x I think max cache size is 2 gig

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RE: Progressive slow

[Dennis, Neil]

> Don’t think you can do this in 13.x I think max cache size is 2 gig

Doesn't that depend on the OS? Doesn't 13.x have a 64 bit sever for windows? 
Perhaps not, it has been a while since I used 4D v13.


Neil












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Re: Progressive slow

[Chuck Miller]

Don’t think you can do this in 13.x I think max cache size is 2 gig

Regards

Chuck

 Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
 Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
  http://www.informed-solutions.com  



> On Oct 28, 2016, at 10:52 PM, Randy Jaynes  wrote:
> 
> Sounds like the database cache settings on the server are off. I had a 
> similar problem some months back which went away when I returned to factory 
> settings and bumped the maximum up to 4000MB.
> 
> This was in Database Settings -> Memory Tab.
> 
> Randy
> 
> --
> Randy Jaynes
> Senior Programmer and Customer Support
> 
> http://printpoint.com • (845) 359-0298 • PrintPoint, Inc • 57 Ludlow Lane • 
> Palisades, NY 10964 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 28, 2016, at 6:20 PM, stardata.info  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> In one 4D V13.3 application in client server on windows, from some time, i 
>> notice that some query after some hours of use become slow, if i close and 
>> reopen the application are new fast.
>> 
>> The database is great
>> 
>> Someone have a suggestion for solve?
> 
> 
> **
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Re: Progressive slow

[Chuck Miller]

How big is data file? How much memory on the machine? How much assigned to 4D? 
Is there anything else on the server? You should be running 13.6 not 13.3.
Is there something else happening within 4D that might be causing this?

Regards

Chuck

 Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
 Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
  http://www.informed-solutions.com  



> On Oct 28, 2016, at 6:20 PM, stardata.info  wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> In one 4D V13.3 application in client server on windows, from some time, i 
> notice that some query after some hours of use become slow, if i close and 
> reopen the application are new fast.
> 
> The database is great
> 
> Someone have a suggestion for solve?
> 
> Thanks
> Ferdinando
> **
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Re: Allow CR in text field

[Bill Weale]

Hi Arnaud and Chuck—

I think I understand (correctly?) that, without any filter, text fields will 
accept all characters. It’s also my understanding that a filter acts in a way 
that it will allow only those characters specified by the filter itself? And 
there’s no way to craft a “deny” filter?

I received a call from a user that she was seeing the handling of characters 
with diacriticals had changed. (Mac OS and 4D v14) For instance the previous 2 
keystrokes which produced é were now producing ´é. (she was having to go back 
and cut the first ´.)

Years ago the purpose I used text filters was to prohibit “control” characters 
which, if stored in data, might cause unpredictable results. Short story at 
this time is that, in trying to track down the diacritical problem, I’m getting 
different results between using no text filter vs an empty text filter and I 
can’t seem to find a way to allow CRs

It’s 2016 and we’re now all unicode; is there any reason to use a text filter 
at all if I’m not particularly concerned about controlling input? Has anyone 
else seen different behaviors between using no input filter and using a 
blank/null input filter?

Thanks,

Bill

All this demonstrates I’m more capable of confusing myself thananyone else is...



> On Oct 31, 2016, at 10:46 AM, Chuck Miller  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bill,
> 
> text fields by there nature except carriage returns. They accept all 
> characters. If you want to allow cut and paste from word for example, you 
> need to have a filter that will filter out those hidden characters that are 
> part of the copy. That is the purpose of filter on text fields, ti limit, not 
> allow characters
> 
> Regards
> Chuck
> 
> Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
> Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
> mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
> Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
>   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
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> 
>> On Oct 31, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Bill Weale  wrote:
>> 
>> For a text field, is there any entry (other than no entry) we can make 
>> either in the Entry Filter of a form object’s property list or in the filter 
>> editor which would allow the entry of a carriage return?
>> 
>> In other words, can this be done without requiring code?
> 
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Allow CR in text field

[Bill Weale]

For a text field, is there any entry (other than no entry) we can make either 
in the Entry Filter of a form object’s property list or in the filter editor 
which would allow the entry of a carriage return?

In other words, can this be done without requiring code?

Thanks,

Bill


William W. Weale

Business Owners Support, LLC.

Operations Analysis
MIS Advising
Decision Support Systems

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