Re: San Fransisco Font

[Alan Chan via 4D_Tech]

Interesting, we don't actual use stylesheet. Back to old days (non-unicode), we 
need to assign different font for different languages. Due to different OS 
version and platform, we allow users to set font but not font size and saved by 
machine. These
setting has been embedded in our system for decades and still in place after we 
switched to unicode years ago. So far it works well with Traditional Chinese 
and Simplified Chinese. All other forms (input, output and printings) are set 
during on load
with Object set Font based on object name style.

Of course, this is not in v16 and not there yet.

Alan Chan

4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> writes:
>changing the font according to what you get from this,
>or any other ways to obtain the system font name,
>is going to fail when the app starts to display and accept text outside the 
>latin alphabet.

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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

> 2017/10/11 1:25、Richard Wright via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> のメール：
> I don’t recall seeing any such recommendation or discussion in the manuals. 
> I’ve been using the System Font in a couple of style sheets for years without 
> issues, for generic dialogs and buttons. It doesn’t make sense that one can 
> select it for a Style Sheet if 4D is recommending not to select it.
> I’m also not sure what you’re trying to convey with the links.
> I took a look at the Apple page on CTFont and don’t see any mention of a 
> System font, just a list of font functions.

the link is one step away from the list of constants that corresponds to the 
automatic stylesheet feature.

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coretext/ctfontuifonttype?changes=latest_major=objc

as you can see, the list is pretty extensive.

the point I was trying to make was that a regular stylesheet with the system 
font name assigned
is not going to work the same way as the automatic stylesheet feature.



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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Richard Wright via 4D_Tech]

I don’t recall seeing any such recommendation or discussion in the manuals. 
I’ve been using the System Font in a couple of style sheets for years without 
issues, for generic dialogs and buttons. It doesn’t make sense that one can 
select it for a Style Sheet if 4D is recommending not to select it. I’m also 
not sure what you’re trying to convey with the links. I took a look at the 
Apple page on CTFont and don’t see any mention of a System font, just a list of 
font functions.



Richard Wright
DataDomain
rwri...@datadomainsoftware.com


> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 00:46:50 +
> From: Keisuke Miyako 
> 
> on the use of system font:
> 
> the only correct (that is, intended) way to use the system font in 4D is to 
> use it indirectly with the automatic stylesheet feature.
> 
> it is NOT recommended to use "system font" via the default stylesheet, or any 
> stylesheet, except the automatic stylesheet, or change an object's font to 
> "system font" using OBJECT SET FONT. all these features simply reference the 
> font by its name, but the system font is not just another font name, it is 
> more than that.
> 
> from a technical point of view, it is resolved via the Theme API on Windows
> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb773210(v=vs.85).aspx
> and CoreText API on macOS.
> https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coretext/ctfont?language=objc
> 
> the system font is rendered according to context, that is, the control (form 
> object) type, its size (notably its height) the screen DPI on Windows and 
> even the language or languages that appear in the text. if you simply apply 
> the SF font like any other font, you won't get the full benefit of the system 
> font feature.

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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Ortwin Zillgen via 4D_Tech]

> I see from
> http://doc.4d.com/4Dv16/4D/16.1/Automatic-style-sheets.300-3373396.en.html
> 
> "Automatic style sheets manage the font as well as its size and color"
> 
> However, when I apply the "Automatic" style sheet I get a System Font 13
> for fields and variables which is way too large for the form design I have.
> Does this mean I have to redesign all the forms?

any fontsize below 13 points, maybe labes and smallprint at 11 points, is to 
small for todays screen-resoultions (±130 dpi) and many users eyes.




Regards
O r t w i n  Z i l l g e n
-
   
 
member of developer-network 

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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Wayne Stewart via 4D_Tech]

Sujit,

Don't get me wrong.

I do what Keisuke says as well, I just capture the font name on startup so
I can use it later.


Regards,

Wayne


[image: --]
Wayne Stewart
[image: http://]about.me/waynestewart



On 10 October 2017 at 15:34, Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
wrote:

> I think I am going to bite the bullet and do as Keisuke suggests. Testing
> it I found the User experience is way better..  An easy sprint or 2 for the
> hundreds of forms in the DB.
>
> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Wayne Stewart via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I guess that's not a major concern for me.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> >
> > [image: --]
> > Wayne Stewart
> > [image: http://]about.me/waynestewart
> > 
> >
> >
> > On 10 October 2017 at 14:56, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <
> > 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > 2017/10/10 12:41、Wayne Stewart via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> > のメール：
> > > > <>WGD_o.Font:=New object
> > > > <>WGD_o.Font.Name:=OBJECT Get font(*;"auto")
> > >
> > > as I mentioned in my other post,
> > >
> > > changing the font according to what you get from this,
> > > or any other ways to obtain the system font name,
> > > is going to fail when the app starts to display and accept text outside
> > > the latin alphabet.
> > >
> > > but of course, that may not be your concern at all.
> > > in that case, I have no reasons to stop you.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > **
> > > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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> > >
> > **
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> xxx
> "There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
> strength. "
> **
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech]

Yeah Sure. But the field spacing is way off and a realignment and
repositioning is inevitable.

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> keep in mind that since v13,
>
> you can find in design your "default" stylesheet and replace it with
> "Automatic".
>
> it's how 4D replaced all its internal dialogs.
>
> > 2017/10/10 13:34、Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> のメール：
> > An easy sprint or 2 for the
> > hundreds of forms in the DB.
>
>
>
>
> **
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>



-- 

xxx
"There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
strength. "
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

keep in mind that since v13,

you can find in design your "default" stylesheet and replace it with 
"Automatic".

it's how 4D replaced all its internal dialogs.

> 2017/10/10 13:34、Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> のメール：
> An easy sprint or 2 for the
> hundreds of forms in the DB.




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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech]

I think I am going to bite the bullet and do as Keisuke suggests. Testing
it I found the User experience is way better..  An easy sprint or 2 for the
hundreds of forms in the DB.

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Wayne Stewart via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I guess that's not a major concern for me.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Wayne
>
>
> [image: --]
> Wayne Stewart
> [image: http://]about.me/waynestewart
> 
>
>
> On 10 October 2017 at 14:56, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>
> > > 2017/10/10 12:41、Wayne Stewart via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> のメール：
> > > <>WGD_o.Font:=New object
> > > <>WGD_o.Font.Name:=OBJECT Get font(*;"auto")
> >
> > as I mentioned in my other post,
> >
> > changing the font according to what you get from this,
> > or any other ways to obtain the system font name,
> > is going to fail when the app starts to display and accept text outside
> > the latin alphabet.
> >
> > but of course, that may not be your concern at all.
> > in that case, I have no reasons to stop you.
> >
> >
> >
> > **
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> > Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
> > **
> >
> **
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>



-- 

xxx
"There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
strength. "
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Wayne Stewart via 4D_Tech]

Hi,

I guess that's not a major concern for me.


Regards,

Wayne


[image: --]
Wayne Stewart
[image: http://]about.me/waynestewart



On 10 October 2017 at 14:56, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> > 2017/10/10 12:41、Wayne Stewart via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> のメール：
> > <>WGD_o.Font:=New object
> > <>WGD_o.Font.Name:=OBJECT Get font(*;"auto")
>
> as I mentioned in my other post,
>
> changing the font according to what you get from this,
> or any other ways to obtain the system font name,
> is going to fail when the app starts to display and accept text outside
> the latin alphabet.
>
> but of course, that may not be your concern at all.
> in that case, I have no reasons to stop you.
>
>
>
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

> 2017/10/10 12:41、Wayne Stewart via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> のメール：
> <>WGD_o.Font:=New object
> <>WGD_o.Font.Name:=OBJECT Get font(*;"auto")

as I mentioned in my other post,

changing the font according to what you get from this,
or any other ways to obtain the system font name,
is going to fail when the app starts to display and accept text outside the 
latin alphabet.

but of course, that may not be your concern at all.
in that case, I have no reasons to stop you.



**
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Wayne Stewart via 4D_Tech]

Sujit,

I do use the style sheet but I resize some of my dialogs/windows to fit the
amount of text being displayed.  This way I know the name of the font when
the calculations are made.

Sorry, that wasn't clear.


Regards,

Wayne


[image: --]
Wayne Stewart
[image: http://]about.me/waynestewart



On 10 October 2017 at 14:44, Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
wrote:

> SO you don't use the property list to set the stylesheets?
>
> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 2:41 PM, Wayne Stewart via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > What I do is open a form on startup in a window outside etc screen
> > boundary.
> >
> > On that form I have one variable set to Automatic.
> >
> > In the On load method I call:
> >
> > <>WGD_o.Font:=New object
> > <>WGD_o.Font.Name:=OBJECT Get font(*;"auto")
> >
> > In this particular example <>WGD_o is an application wide IP object that
> I
> > use to stuff things in.
> >
> > I then have the name to be used for the system font available for
> > calling thought the system.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> >
> > [image: --]
> > Wayne Stewart
> > [image: http://]about.me/waynestewart
> > 
> >
> >
> > On 10 October 2017 at 14:32, Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for your input. The standard Automatic font for data input is
> > rather
> > > nice - I must say. Gives the interface a nice uncluttered look and I am
> > > sure an enhanced data entry experience.  Something that users using web
> > > applications will be familiar with. A lot of "old style" 4D
> applications
> > > are cluttered with lots of fields packed together. Obviously with size
> 13
> > > fonts the screen real estate has to be redesigned to accomodate all the
> > > fields. Perhaps by means of tabs (multiple pages or scroll bars). I am
> > > waiting for the true elastic bootstrap 4D UI or perhaps I should not
> wait
> > > and just use web areas for all forms..
> > >
> > > :-)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <
> > > 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > no,
> > > >
> > > > it simply means that the form is specifically designed.
> > > >
> > > > https://developer.apple.com/macos/human-interface-
> > > > guidelines/visual-design/typography/
> > > >
> > > > > 2017/10/10 10:57、Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> のメール：
> > > > >
> > > > > "Automatic style sheets manage the font as well as its size and
> > color"
> > > > >
> > > > > However, when I apply the "Automatic" style sheet I get a System
> Font
> > > 13
> > > > > for fields and variables which is way too large for the form
> design I
> > > > have.
> > > > > Does this mean I have to redesign all the forms?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
> **
> > > > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > > > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > > > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> > > > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> > > > Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
> > > > 
> **
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > xxx
> > > "There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
> > > strength. "
> > > **
> > > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> > > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
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> > > **
> > >
> > **
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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> > Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
> > **
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> xxx
> "There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
> strength. "
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech]

SO you don't use the property list to set the stylesheets?

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 2:41 PM, Wayne Stewart via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> What I do is open a form on startup in a window outside etc screen
> boundary.
>
> On that form I have one variable set to Automatic.
>
> In the On load method I call:
>
> <>WGD_o.Font:=New object
> <>WGD_o.Font.Name:=OBJECT Get font(*;"auto")
>
> In this particular example <>WGD_o is an application wide IP object that I
> use to stuff things in.
>
> I then have the name to be used for the system font available for
> calling thought the system.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Wayne
>
>
> [image: --]
> Wayne Stewart
> [image: http://]about.me/waynestewart
> 
>
>
> On 10 October 2017 at 14:32, Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for your input. The standard Automatic font for data input is
> rather
> > nice - I must say. Gives the interface a nice uncluttered look and I am
> > sure an enhanced data entry experience.  Something that users using web
> > applications will be familiar with. A lot of "old style" 4D applications
> > are cluttered with lots of fields packed together. Obviously with size 13
> > fonts the screen real estate has to be redesigned to accomodate all the
> > fields. Perhaps by means of tabs (multiple pages or scroll bars). I am
> > waiting for the true elastic bootstrap 4D UI or perhaps I should not wait
> > and just use web areas for all forms..
> >
> > :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <
> > 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >
> > > no,
> > >
> > > it simply means that the form is specifically designed.
> > >
> > > https://developer.apple.com/macos/human-interface-
> > > guidelines/visual-design/typography/
> > >
> > > > 2017/10/10 10:57、Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> のメール：
> > > >
> > > > "Automatic style sheets manage the font as well as its size and
> color"
> > > >
> > > > However, when I apply the "Automatic" style sheet I get a System Font
> > 13
> > > > for fields and variables which is way too large for the form design I
> > > have.
> > > > Does this mean I have to redesign all the forms?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > **
> > > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> > > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> > > Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
> > > **
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > xxx
> > "There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
> > strength. "
> > **
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> > Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
> > **
> >
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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strength. "
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Wayne Stewart via 4D_Tech]

Hi,

What I do is open a form on startup in a window outside etc screen boundary.

On that form I have one variable set to Automatic.

In the On load method I call:

<>WGD_o.Font:=New object
<>WGD_o.Font.Name:=OBJECT Get font(*;"auto")

In this particular example <>WGD_o is an application wide IP object that I
use to stuff things in.

I then have the name to be used for the system font available for
calling thought the system.

Cheers,

Wayne




Regards,

Wayne


[image: --]
Wayne Stewart
[image: http://]about.me/waynestewart



On 10 October 2017 at 14:32, Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
wrote:

> Thanks for your input. The standard Automatic font for data input is rather
> nice - I must say. Gives the interface a nice uncluttered look and I am
> sure an enhanced data entry experience.  Something that users using web
> applications will be familiar with. A lot of "old style" 4D applications
> are cluttered with lots of fields packed together. Obviously with size 13
> fonts the screen real estate has to be redesigned to accomodate all the
> fields. Perhaps by means of tabs (multiple pages or scroll bars). I am
> waiting for the true elastic bootstrap 4D UI or perhaps I should not wait
> and just use web areas for all forms..
>
> :-)
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>
> > no,
> >
> > it simply means that the form is specifically designed.
> >
> > https://developer.apple.com/macos/human-interface-
> > guidelines/visual-design/typography/
> >
> > > 2017/10/10 10:57、Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> のメール：
> > >
> > > "Automatic style sheets manage the font as well as its size and color"
> > >
> > > However, when I apply the "Automatic" style sheet I get a System Font
> 13
> > > for fields and variables which is way too large for the form design I
> > have.
> > > Does this mean I have to redesign all the forms?
> >
> >
> >
> > **
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
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> > **
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> xxx
> "There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
> strength. "
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech]

Nice tips here..

https://mono.company/journal/design-practice/the-10-commandments-of-good-form-design-on-the-web/


On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Sujit Shah  wrote:

> Thanks for your input. The standard Automatic font for data input is
> rather nice - I must say. Gives the interface a nice uncluttered look and I
> am sure an enhanced data entry experience.  Something that users using web
> applications will be familiar with. A lot of "old style" 4D applications
> are cluttered with lots of fields packed together. Obviously with size 13
> fonts the screen real estate has to be redesigned to accomodate all the
> fields. Perhaps by means of tabs (multiple pages or scroll bars). I am
> waiting for the true elastic bootstrap 4D UI or perhaps I should not wait
> and just use web areas for all forms..
>
> :-)
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>
>> no,
>>
>> it simply means that the form is specifically designed.
>>
>> https://developer.apple.com/macos/human-interface-guidelines
>> /visual-design/typography/
>>
>> > 2017/10/10 10:57、Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> のメール：
>> >
>> > "Automatic style sheets manage the font as well as its size and color"
>> >
>> > However, when I apply the "Automatic" style sheet I get a System Font 13
>> > for fields and variables which is way too large for the form design I
>> have.
>> > Does this mean I have to redesign all the forms?
>>
>>
>>
>> **
>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>> Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
>> **
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> xxx
> "There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
> strength. "
>
>



-- 

xxx
"There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
strength. "
**
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech]

Thanks for your input. The standard Automatic font for data input is rather
nice - I must say. Gives the interface a nice uncluttered look and I am
sure an enhanced data entry experience.  Something that users using web
applications will be familiar with. A lot of "old style" 4D applications
are cluttered with lots of fields packed together. Obviously with size 13
fonts the screen real estate has to be redesigned to accomodate all the
fields. Perhaps by means of tabs (multiple pages or scroll bars). I am
waiting for the true elastic bootstrap 4D UI or perhaps I should not wait
and just use web areas for all forms..

:-)




On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> no,
>
> it simply means that the form is specifically designed.
>
> https://developer.apple.com/macos/human-interface-
> guidelines/visual-design/typography/
>
> > 2017/10/10 10:57、Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> のメール：
> >
> > "Automatic style sheets manage the font as well as its size and color"
> >
> > However, when I apply the "Automatic" style sheet I get a System Font 13
> > for fields and variables which is way too large for the form design I
> have.
> > Does this mean I have to redesign all the forms?
>
>
>
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
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> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
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>



-- 

xxx
"There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
strength. "
**
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

no,

it simply means that the form is specifically designed.

https://developer.apple.com/macos/human-interface-guidelines/visual-design/typography/

> 2017/10/10 10:57、Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> のメール：
>
> "Automatic style sheets manage the font as well as its size and color"
>
> However, when I apply the "Automatic" style sheet I get a System Font 13
> for fields and variables which is way too large for the form design I have.
> Does this mean I have to redesign all the forms?



**
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech]

Does this also explain the problem I have with retina displays?

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 12:57 PM, Sujit Shah  wrote:

> I see from http://doc.4d.com/4Dv16/4D/16.1/Automatic-style-
> sheets.300-3373396.en.html
>
> "Automatic style sheets manage the font as well as its size and color"
>
> However, when I apply the "Automatic" style sheet I get a System Font 13
> for fields and variables which is way too large for the form design I have.
> Does this mean I have to redesign all the forms?
>
> :-(
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:46 AM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>
>> on the use of system font:
>>
>> the only correct (that is, intended) way to use the system font in 4D is
>> to use it indirectly with the automatic stylesheet feature.
>>
>> it is NOT recommended to use "system font" via the default stylesheet, or
>> any stylesheet, except the automatic stylesheet, or change an object's font
>> to "system font" using OBJECT SET FONT. all these features simply reference
>> the font by its name, but the system font is not just another font name, it
>> is more than that.
>>
>> from a technical point of view, it is resolved via the Theme API on
>> Windows
>> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb7
>> 73210(v=vs.85).aspx
>> and CoreText API on macOS.
>> https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coretext/ctfont?language=objc
>>
>> the system font is rendered according to context, that is, the control
>> (form object) type, its size (notably its height) the screen DPI on Windows
>> and even the language or languages that appear in the text. if you simply
>> apply the SF font like any other font, you won't get the full benefit of
>> the system font feature.
>>
>> it is a hidden font name, with a dot prefix. one way to use it (defying
>> the designer's intent) is to create an HTML with the CSS style (you can
>> find ways to do that on the internet), open it in a web browser, copy and
>> paste the text (with style) to an editor (iWorks, TextEdit, anything), and
>> then register that font in the system font panel as a favourite. once you
>> know its hidden name, you can use it in 4D as well. but it won't behave the
>> same way as the system font let alone the automatic stylesheet, you are
>> intentionally using a static subset of those dynamic features against the
>> designer's intent.
>>
>>
>>
>> **
>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
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>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> xxx
> "There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
> strength. "
>
>



-- 

xxx
"There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
strength. "
**
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech]

I see from
http://doc.4d.com/4Dv16/4D/16.1/Automatic-style-sheets.300-3373396.en.html

"Automatic style sheets manage the font as well as its size and color"

However, when I apply the "Automatic" style sheet I get a System Font 13
for fields and variables which is way too large for the form design I have.
Does this mean I have to redesign all the forms?

:-(



On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:46 AM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> on the use of system font:
>
> the only correct (that is, intended) way to use the system font in 4D is
> to use it indirectly with the automatic stylesheet feature.
>
> it is NOT recommended to use "system font" via the default stylesheet, or
> any stylesheet, except the automatic stylesheet, or change an object's font
> to "system font" using OBJECT SET FONT. all these features simply reference
> the font by its name, but the system font is not just another font name, it
> is more than that.
>
> from a technical point of view, it is resolved via the Theme API on Windows
> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/
> bb773210(v=vs.85).aspx
> and CoreText API on macOS.
> https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coretext/ctfont?language=objc
>
> the system font is rendered according to context, that is, the control
> (form object) type, its size (notably its height) the screen DPI on Windows
> and even the language or languages that appear in the text. if you simply
> apply the SF font like any other font, you won't get the full benefit of
> the system font feature.
>
> it is a hidden font name, with a dot prefix. one way to use it (defying
> the designer's intent) is to create an HTML with the CSS style (you can
> find ways to do that on the internet), open it in a web browser, copy and
> paste the text (with style) to an editor (iWorks, TextEdit, anything), and
> then register that font in the system font panel as a favourite. once you
> know its hidden name, you can use it in 4D as well. but it won't behave the
> same way as the system font let alone the automatic stylesheet, you are
> intentionally using a static subset of those dynamic features against the
> designer's intent.
>
>
>
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
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> **
>



-- 

xxx
"There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
strength. "
**
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

on the use of system font:

the only correct (that is, intended) way to use the system font in 4D is to use 
it indirectly with the automatic stylesheet feature.

it is NOT recommended to use "system font" via the default stylesheet, or any 
stylesheet, except the automatic stylesheet, or change an object's font to 
"system font" using OBJECT SET FONT. all these features simply reference the 
font by its name, but the system font is not just another font name, it is more 
than that.

from a technical point of view, it is resolved via the Theme API on Windows
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb773210(v=vs.85).aspx
and CoreText API on macOS.
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coretext/ctfont?language=objc

the system font is rendered according to context, that is, the control (form 
object) type, its size (notably its height) the screen DPI on Windows and even 
the language or languages that appear in the text. if you simply apply the SF 
font like any other font, you won't get the full benefit of the system font 
feature.

it is a hidden font name, with a dot prefix. one way to use it (defying the 
designer's intent) is to create an HTML with the CSS style (you can find ways 
to do that on the internet), open it in a web browser, copy and paste the text 
(with style) to an editor (iWorks, TextEdit, anything), and then register that 
font in the system font panel as a favourite. once you know its hidden name, 
you can use it in 4D as well. but it won't behave the same way as the system 
font let alone the automatic stylesheet, you are intentionally using a static 
subset of those dynamic features against the designer's intent.



**
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech]

As always thanks for the confirmation


On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 at 9:32 am, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> You can use any size.
>
> --
> Jeffrey Kain
> jeffrey.k...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:30 PM, Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the insight. The system font on Mac Appears small (says size
> > 10). Can the size be increased to 11? Will each user need to add a size
> to
> > the font library? It seems to be working for me without adding one. But
> > that does not mean it will work on all Macs.
>
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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-- 

xxx
"There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
strength. "
**
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

You can use any size.

--
Jeffrey Kain
jeffrey.k...@gmail.com




> On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:30 PM, Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the insight. The system font on Mac Appears small (says size
> 10). Can the size be increased to 11? Will each user need to add a size to
> the font library? It seems to be working for me without adding one. But
> that does not mean it will work on all Macs.

**
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech]

Thanks for the insight. The system font on Mac Appears small (says size
10). Can the size be increased to 11? Will each user need to add a size to
the font library? It seems to be working for me without adding one. But
that does not mean it will work on all Macs.

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 8:23 AM, Spencer Hinsdale via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Here's how to get font and something about style sheet "automatic":
>
> http://kb.4d.com/resources/inug?msgid=GmailId15d3951d31795686 <
> http://kb.4d.com/resources/inug?msgid=GmailId15d3951d31795686>
>
> I don't know from "Default" but I do vaguely recall having boxes for 95,
> 2000, and XP.  :)
>
> > On Oct 9, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >
> > In my experience, the Default style sheet doesn't work correctly. On El
> Capitan and Sierra, it uses the Yosemite system font no matter what. But if
> you make a new style sheet that refers to "System Font" you'll end up the
> correct font on each OS. Not sure why "Default" doesn't work properly... I
> never really dug into it.
> >
> > Keep in mind that the Yosemite system font is significantly wider than
> its successors.
> >
> > --
> > Jeffrey Kain
> > jeffrey.k...@gmail.com
> >
> >> On Oct 9, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> My thinking has been to use the “Default “ style sheet and explicitly
> set
> >> it to the prevailing system font on both platforms. However, the
> stylesheet
> >> editor has only one setting for macOS and some obsolete windows OS.
> >
> > **
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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> > **
>
> **
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-- 

xxx
"There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
strength. "
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Spencer Hinsdale via 4D_Tech]

Here's how to get font and something about style sheet "automatic":

http://kb.4d.com/resources/inug?msgid=GmailId15d3951d31795686 


I don't know from "Default" but I do vaguely recall having boxes for 95, 2000, 
and XP.  :)

> On Oct 9, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> In my experience, the Default style sheet doesn't work correctly. On El 
> Capitan and Sierra, it uses the Yosemite system font no matter what. But if 
> you make a new style sheet that refers to "System Font" you'll end up the 
> correct font on each OS. Not sure why "Default" doesn't work properly... I 
> never really dug into it.
> 
> Keep in mind that the Yosemite system font is significantly wider than its 
> successors.
> 
> --
> Jeffrey Kain
> jeffrey.k...@gmail.com
> 
>> On Oct 9, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> My thinking has been to use the “Default “ style sheet and explicitly set
>> it to the prevailing system font on both platforms. However, the stylesheet
>> editor has only one setting for macOS and some obsolete windows OS.
> 
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

In my experience, the Default style sheet doesn't work correctly. On El Capitan 
and Sierra, it uses the Yosemite system font no matter what. But if you make a 
new style sheet that refers to "System Font" you'll end up the correct font on 
each OS. Not sure why "Default" doesn't work properly... I never really dug 
into it.

Keep in mind that the Yosemite system font is significantly wider than its 
successors.

--
Jeffrey Kain
jeffrey.k...@gmail.com

> On Oct 9, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> My thinking has been to use the “Default “ style sheet and explicitly set
> it to the prevailing system font on both platforms. However, the stylesheet
> editor has only one setting for macOS and some obsolete windows OS.

**
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech]

So you are implying that I should set all style sheets to the system font

My thinking has been to use the “Default “ style sheet and explicitly set
it to the prevailing system font on both platforms. However, the stylesheet
editor has only one setting for macOS and some obsolete windows OS.

I guess I have to figure out how to change all objects to system globally.











On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 at 2:51 am, Ortwin Zillgen via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> > Still does not explain why I cannot see the SF font in the fonts library.
>
> you'll find them starting here
> 
> and end of list
> 
>
>
> > All tge objects are set to the “default “ style sheet set to Segoi UI for
> > Windows and Lucida Grande for MacOs
> >
> > I will avoid System Font as the user can manipulate this.
>
> you know, this is 1990-ies style of UI.
> Stick with system font, 4D supports that. The customer dependent fonts
> should be those for printing, only.
>
>
> Regards
> O r t w i n  Z i l l g e n
> -
>    
>  
> member of developer-network 
>
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"There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
strength. "
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Ortwin Zillgen via 4D_Tech]

> Still does not explain why I cannot see the SF font in the fonts library.

you'll find them starting here

and end of list



> All tge objects are set to the “default “ style sheet set to Segoi UI for
> Windows and Lucida Grande for MacOs
> 
> I will avoid System Font as the user can manipulate this.

you know, this is 1990-ies style of UI.
Stick with system font, 4D supports that. The customer dependent fonts should 
be those for printing, only.


Regards
O r t w i n  Z i l l g e n
-
   
 
member of developer-network 

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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

> Still does not explain why I cannot see the SF font in the fonts library.

Apple locks it down. You can’t see it in Word either.

> I will avoid System Font as the user can manipulate this.

How? I suppose you could manipulate any font really...
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech]

Hmm

Still does not explain why I cannot see the SF font in the fonts library.

All tge objects are set to the “default “ style sheet set to Segoi UI for
Windows and Lucida Grande for MacOs

I will avoid System Font as the user can manipulate this.


On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 at 8:46 pm, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Sujit-
>
> You need to refer to it in your style sheets as “System Font.”
>
> > On Oct 9, 2017, at 1:09 AM, Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Does the SF font replace Lucida Grand on macOS Sierra? If so I don't seem
> > to find it on my Mac?
> >
> > Has SF become the standard default font for macOS Sierra?
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"There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
strength. "
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Re: San Fransisco Font

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

Sujit-

You need to refer to it in your style sheets as “System Font.” 

> On Oct 9, 2017, at 1:09 AM, Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Does the SF font replace Lucida Grand on macOS Sierra? If so I don't seem
> to find it on my Mac?
> 
> Has SF become the standard default font for macOS Sierra?
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San Fransisco Font

[Sujit Shah via 4D_Tech]

Does the SF font replace Lucida Grand on macOS Sierra? If so I don't seem
to find it on my Mac?

Has SF become the standard default font for macOS Sierra?



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xxx
"There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
strength. "
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