Re: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

you can export related fields.

the component expects an object array as JSON.
you just use 4D commands to populate that array however way you like.

true, Selection to JSON does not activate automatic relations,
but it is by no means the only way to create an object array.

the component is quite flexible,
rows can have different number of columns, for example.

as you can see in the example,

https://github.com/miyako/4d-component-csv

export is done in 2 steps: create JSON, convert JSON to CSV.
likewise import is done in 2 steps: convert CSV to 2D text array, apply to 
selection based on the 2D array.

2018/11/29 15:19、Chip Scheide 
<4d_o...@pghrepository.org>のメール:
BTW - my impression on the CSV export is that it would work for a simple one 
table export, but that a complex export (like an invoice) would not really be 
possible using just you component.



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Re: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech]

I did get a copy, and opened it. - Thanks

I pulled some of the regex from it.
hence the questions earlier about why the results from the regex.

BTW - my impression on the CSV export is that it would work for a simple one 
table export, but that a complex export (like an invoice) would not really be 
possible using just you component.

Did I understand how the object(s) worked correctly? As I did not see a way to 
do relational data export.

Thanks

> that's fair, exporting XML spreadsheets only makes sense if the idea 
> is to open it with Excel.
> 
> for CSV or TSV with proper quotation of data that contains CR, LF, 
> quotes, commas, etc.
> the example https://github.com/miyako/4d-component-csv is for v15 and above
> but the core regex stuff might be portable to v13.
> 
> 2018/11/29 0:30、Chip Scheide 
> <4d_o...@pghrepository.org>のメール:
> And yes I realize the irony - intentional - in using xml/html style
> markers for the rant  :)
> 
> 
> 
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 Jean-Paul Sartre
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Re: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

that's fair, exporting XML spreadsheets only makes sense if the idea is to open 
it with Excel.

for CSV or TSV with proper quotation of data that contains CR, LF, quotes, 
commas, etc.
the example https://github.com/miyako/4d-component-csv is for v15 and above
but the core regex stuff might be portable to v13.

2018/11/29 0:30、Chip Scheide 
<4d_o...@pghrepository.org>のメール:
And yes I realize the irony - intentional - in using xml/html style
markers for the rant  :)



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Re: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[THOMAS BENEDICT via 4D_Tech]

Hi Chip,

The trick with Excel is that it uses a 'soft return' within a cell. To get that 
soft-return within Excel you type Alt-Return (on Windows) or 
Control-Option-Return (on MacOS).

I don't remember what the Character Code is for that character, but that's what 
you'll need to include in your extract script. I seem to recall that it is a 
newline. Google should be able to help you.

Hope this helps, and sorry it doesn't have more details.

Tom Benedict
Optum

> On November 27, 2018 at 2:07 PM Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I would like to be able to embed a return and/or line feed into column 
> in a tab delimited file (opening with Excel).
>
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Re: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[THOMAS BENEDICT via 4D_Tech]

I spent many hours sorting this out a few months ago. The file needed to be 
easily read by Excel (as in your case) plus it needed to be importable into SQL 
Server. I ended up creating a CSV with CRLF record delimiters. But I also 
processed the embedded soft returns in a way that escapes me right now. I'll 
try to look that code up tomorrow, if it still exists.

Once you have a .csv, it can be double-clicked to open in Excel avoiding the 
Import Wizard entirely. BTW, the difficulty here is all due to Excel's bizarre 
and unique way of handling things.

I'll see whether I can shed any light on this tomorrow.

Tom

> On November 27, 2018 at 3:50 PM Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Thomas & Chuck
> the intent is to create the export file in such a manner that NO user 
> intervention is required to open the file with the embedded returns.
> 
> changing the end of row marker will work, but then the user(s) need to know 
> that -- and they won't or they won't remember etc -- after all they are 
> users
> 
> typing Alt-return is not really an option s the data is already exported...
> The embedded character is listed as (10)& for line feed, and (13)& 
> for carriage return, however, replacing the return (4D) with either or both 
> of these strings does NOT result in return or line feed in Excel; just the 
> exact characters "(10)&"
> A bit of experimentation shows that to get the character code to work 
> requires a formal where for example you have
> =A1+(10)&+B3
> 
> any other ideas??
> 
> Thanks
> 
> > Hi Chip,
> > 
> > The trick with Excel is that it uses a 'soft return' within a cell. 
> > To get that soft-return within Excel you type Alt-Return (on Windows) 
> > or Control-Option-Return (on MacOS).
> > 
> > I don't remember what the Character Code is for that character, but 
> > that's what you'll need to include in your extract script. I seem to 
> > recall that it is a newline. Google should be able to help you.
> > 
> > Hope this helps, and sorry it doesn't have more details.
> > 
> > Tom Benedict
> > Optum
> > 
> >> On November 27, 2018 at 2:07 PM Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech 
> >> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> I would like to be able to embed a return and/or line feed into column 
> >> in a tab delimited file (opening with Excel).
> >> 
> > 
> 
> Hell is other people 
>  Jean-Paul Sartre
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Re: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech]

Keisuke,
a text file is being created (tab delimited, or CSV) as the exact use 
case for the export may vary by user. Some may/will want to open in 
excel, others may want to use the data in other programs. A text file 
is basic, can (in principle) be opened by anything.


(not) XML for 3 reasons
- one is the above
- while I can read, and can manually (by code) rip an xml file apart*, 
I am not comfortable(?) knowledgable in creating xml.  Sure I can setup 
"tags" ( data ) but F if I know if it is correct, or 
parsable by anything.
- for most (of my) uses xml is a waste of time and space.

* NOTE: I just had a situation where I had to import an "xml" file. The 
file format as provided (and required) does/did not follow xml 
standards (no line breaks, and other issues), so none of the xml 
commands work. Ended up tearing it apart as if it were a fancy 
formatted text file. So much work so much extra garbage in the file to 
skip over 
Converting 1 data block to tab delimited changes the size (characters) 
of the data block from 11 lines, and 400 characters to 1 line and 102 
characters. There is NO, ZERO, NONE advantage to using xml in this 
situation, as if there is any change in the format in the future, the 
code to manage the import will need to be revisited as the "xml" is 
invalid.


And yes I realize the irony - intentional - in using xml/html style 
markers for the rant  :)



On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 08:43:27 +, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech wrote:
> I suppose the right way to create a "cell" with multiple lines in TSV 
> is to use vertical tab char(11) instead of CRLF,
> but the last time I checked, Excel doesn't handle VT well. (Numbers does).
> 
> for CSV with quotes I published
> 
> https://github.com/miyako/4d-component-csv
> 
> which follows the various rules explained here
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values
> 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4180
> 
> in any case, it doesn't feel right to pretend that CSV or TSV is an 
> Excel spreadsheet.
> 
> why not at least use XML, if XLS or XLSX is a bit of an overkill?
> 
> the method has been around since v2004 (introduction of PROCESS 4D 
> TAGS and DOM/SAX XML commands)
> 
> 
> **
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RE: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech]

Thanks
- I'll try that too

On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 08:30:01 +, Epperlein, Lutz (agendo) via 
4D_Tech wrote:
> You have to escape the data cell containing the linefeed with double 
> quotes. The linefeed has to be encoded as a LF (0x0a) or as CRLF 
> (0x0d 0x0a).
> 
> E.g.
> Data  data   data 
> data  data   "line1 
> line2"
> datadatadata
> 
> This text file you can drag onto Excel to open it (Windows).
> Double click on Windows Explorer doesn't work since it is a .txt file.
> 
> Better is to save it as a .csv file and use a semicolon ";" instead 
> of a tab. So you can use double click to open it (again on Windows).
> 
> Regards
> Lutz
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: 4D_Tech [mailto:4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com] On Behalf Of 
>> Chip Scheide via
>> 4D_Tech
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 11:08 PM
>> To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
>> Cc: Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org>
>> Subject: v13 - Exporting tab delimited
>> 
>> I would like to be able to embed a return and/or line feed into column
>> in a tab delimited file (opening with Excel).
>> 
>> ex:
>> data  data  text data with return more data  data
>> 
>> 
>> Excel will give me:
>> Col1 Col2Col3
>> Data Datatext data with
>> more datadata
>> 
>> 
>> I can not see a way to do this.
>> Is it possible?
>> if so, how?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> Chip
>> ---
>> Gas is for washing parts
>> Alcohol is for drinkin'
>> Nitromethane is for racing
>> *
>> *
>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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Re: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech]

THANKS!

On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:06:39 -0800 (PST), THOMAS BENEDICT wrote:
> I spent many hours sorting this out a few months ago. The file needed 
> to be easily read by Excel (as in your case) plus it needed to be 
> importable into SQL Server. I ended up creating a CSV with CRLF 
> record delimiters. But I also processed the embedded soft returns in 
> a way that escapes me right now. I'll try to look that code up 
> tomorrow, if it still exists.
> 
> Once you have a .csv, it can be double-clicked to open in Excel 
> avoiding the Import Wizard entirely. BTW, the difficulty here is all 
> due to Excel's bizarre and unique way of handling things.
> 
> I'll see whether I can shed any light on this tomorrow.
> 
> Tom
> 
>> On November 27, 2018 at 3:50 PM Chip Scheide 
>> <4d_o...@pghrepository.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Thomas & Chuck
>> the intent is to create the export file in such a manner that NO 
>> user intervention is required to open the file with the embedded 
>> returns.
>> 
>> changing the end of row marker will work, but then the user(s) need 
>> to know that -- and they won't or they won't remember etc -- after 
>> all they are users
>> 
>> typing Alt-return is not really an option s the data is already exported...
>> The embedded character is listed as (10)& for line feed, and 
>> (13)& for carriage return, however, replacing the return (4D) 
>> with either or both of these strings does NOT result in return or 
>> line feed in Excel; just the exact characters "(10)&"
>> A bit of experimentation shows that to get the character code to 
>> work requires a formal where for example you have
>> =A1+(10)&+B3
>> 
>> any other ideas??
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>>> Hi Chip,
>>> 
>>> The trick with Excel is that it uses a 'soft return' within a cell. 
>>> To get that soft-return within Excel you type Alt-Return (on Windows) 
>>> or Control-Option-Return (on MacOS).
>>> 
>>> I don't remember what the Character Code is for that character, but 
>>> that's what you'll need to include in your extract script. I seem to 
>>> recall that it is a newline. Google should be able to help you.
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps, and sorry it doesn't have more details.
>>> 
>>> Tom Benedict
>>> Optum
>>> 
 On November 27, 2018 at 2:07 PM Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech 
 <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
 
 
 I would like to be able to embed a return and/or line feed into column 
 in a tab delimited file (opening with Excel).
 
>>> 
>> 
>> Hell is other people 
>>  Jean-Paul Sartre
> 
---
Gas is for washing parts
Alcohol is for drinkin'
Nitromethane is for racing 
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Re: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

I suppose the right way to create a "cell" with multiple lines in TSV is to use 
vertical tab char(11) instead of CRLF,
but the last time I checked, Excel doesn't handle VT well. (Numbers does).

for CSV with quotes I published

https://github.com/miyako/4d-component-csv

which follows the various rules explained here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4180

in any case, it doesn't feel right to pretend that CSV or TSV is an Excel 
spreadsheet.

why not at least use XML, if XLS or XLSX is a bit of an overkill?

the method has been around since v2004 (introduction of PROCESS 4D TAGS and 
DOM/SAX XML commands)


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RE: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[Epperlein, Lutz (agendo) via 4D_Tech]

You have to escape the data cell containing the linefeed with double quotes. 
The linefeed has to be encoded as a LF (0x0a) or as CRLF (0x0d 0x0a).

E.g.
Data  data   data 
data  data   "line1 
line2"
datadatadata

This text file you can drag onto Excel to open it (Windows).
Double click on Windows Explorer doesn't work since it is a .txt file.

Better is to save it as a .csv file and use a semicolon ";" instead of a tab. 
So you can use double click to open it (again on Windows).

Regards
Lutz

> -Original Message-
> From: 4D_Tech [mailto:4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com] On Behalf Of Chip Scheide 
> via
> 4D_Tech
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 11:08 PM
> To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> Cc: Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org>
> Subject: v13 - Exporting tab delimited
> 
> I would like to be able to embed a return and/or line feed into column
> in a tab delimited file (opening with Excel).
> 
> ex:
> data  data  text data with return more data  data
> 
> 
> Excel will give me:
> Col1  Col2Col3
> Data  Datatext data with
> more data data
> 
> 
> I can not see a way to do this.
> Is it possible?
> if so, how?
> 
> Thanks
> Chip
> ---
> Gas is for washing parts
> Alcohol is for drinkin'
> Nitromethane is for racing
> *
> *
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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Re: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[Douglas von Roeder via 4D_Tech]

Chip:

Unless you must use tabs, what about CSV? I think that was a big reason why
the CSV "standard" created.

--
Douglas von Roeder
949-336-2902


On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 4:10 PM Randy Engle via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Chip,
>
> Character code for a Soft Return is 11
>
> Randy Engle
>
> -Original Message-
> From: 4D_Tech <4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com> On Behalf Of Chip Scheide
> via 4D_Tech
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 3:51 PM
> To: benedic...@comcast.net
> Cc: Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org>; 4d_tech@lists.4d.com
> Subject: Re: v13 - Exporting tab delimited
>
> Thomas & Chuck
> the intent is to create the export file in such a manner that NO user
> intervention is required to open the file with the embedded returns.
>
> changing the end of row marker will work, but then the user(s) need to
> know that -- and they won't or they won't remember etc -- after all they
> are users
>
> typing Alt-return is not really an option s the data is already exported...
> The embedded character is listed as (10)& for line feed, and
> (13)& for carriage return, however, replacing the return (4D) with
> either or both of these strings does NOT result in return or line feed in
> Excel; just the exact characters "(10)&"
> A bit of experimentation shows that to get the character code to work
> requires a formal where for example you have
> =A1+(10)&+B3
>
> any other ideas??
>
> Thanks
>
> > Hi Chip,
> >
> > The trick with Excel is that it uses a 'soft return' within a cell.
> > To get that soft-return within Excel you type Alt-Return (on Windows)
> > or Control-Option-Return (on MacOS).
> >
> > I don't remember what the Character Code is for that character, but
> > that's what you'll need to include in your extract script. I seem to
> > recall that it is a newline. Google should be able to help you.
> >
> > Hope this helps, and sorry it doesn't have more details.
> >
> > Tom Benedict
> > Optum
> >
> >> On November 27, 2018 at 2:07 PM Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech
> >> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I would like to be able to embed a return and/or line feed into
> >> column in a tab delimited file (opening with Excel).
> >>
> >
> 
> Hell is other people
>  Jean-Paul Sartre
> **
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> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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RE: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[Randy Engle via 4D_Tech]

Chip,

Character code for a Soft Return is 11

Randy Engle

-Original Message-
From: 4D_Tech <4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com> On Behalf Of Chip Scheide via 
4D_Tech
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 3:51 PM
To: benedic...@comcast.net
Cc: Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org>; 4d_tech@lists.4d.com
Subject: Re: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

Thomas & Chuck
the intent is to create the export file in such a manner that NO user 
intervention is required to open the file with the embedded returns.

changing the end of row marker will work, but then the user(s) need to know 
that -- and they won't or they won't remember etc -- after all they are 
users

typing Alt-return is not really an option s the data is already exported...
The embedded character is listed as (10)& for line feed, and (13)& 
for carriage return, however, replacing the return (4D) with either or both of 
these strings does NOT result in return or line feed in Excel; just the exact 
characters "(10)&"
A bit of experimentation shows that to get the character code to work requires 
a formal where for example you have
=A1+(10)&+B3

any other ideas??

Thanks

> Hi Chip,
> 
> The trick with Excel is that it uses a 'soft return' within a cell. 
> To get that soft-return within Excel you type Alt-Return (on Windows) 
> or Control-Option-Return (on MacOS).
> 
> I don't remember what the Character Code is for that character, but 
> that's what you'll need to include in your extract script. I seem to 
> recall that it is a newline. Google should be able to help you.
> 
> Hope this helps, and sorry it doesn't have more details.
> 
> Tom Benedict
> Optum
> 
>> On November 27, 2018 at 2:07 PM Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech 
>> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I would like to be able to embed a return and/or line feed into 
>> column in a tab delimited file (opening with Excel).
>> 
> 

Hell is other people 
 Jean-Paul Sartre
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Re: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech]

Thomas & Chuck
the intent is to create the export file in such a manner that NO user 
intervention is required to open the file with the embedded returns.

changing the end of row marker will work, but then the user(s) need to know 
that -- and they won't or they won't remember etc -- after all they are 
users

typing Alt-return is not really an option s the data is already exported...
The embedded character is listed as (10)& for line feed, and (13)& 
for carriage return, however, replacing the return (4D) with either or both of 
these strings does NOT result in return or line feed in Excel; just the exact 
characters "(10)&"
A bit of experimentation shows that to get the character code to work requires 
a formal where for example you have
=A1+(10)&+B3

any other ideas??

Thanks

> Hi Chip,
> 
> The trick with Excel is that it uses a 'soft return' within a cell. 
> To get that soft-return within Excel you type Alt-Return (on Windows) 
> or Control-Option-Return (on MacOS).
> 
> I don't remember what the Character Code is for that character, but 
> that's what you'll need to include in your extract script. I seem to 
> recall that it is a newline. Google should be able to help you.
> 
> Hope this helps, and sorry it doesn't have more details.
> 
> Tom Benedict
> Optum
> 
>> On November 27, 2018 at 2:07 PM Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech 
>> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I would like to be able to embed a return and/or line feed into column 
>> in a tab delimited file (opening with Excel).
>> 
> 

Hell is other people 
 Jean-Paul Sartre
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Re: v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[Charles Miller via 4D_Tech]

You will need to change end of row delimiter to asomething other than a
carriage return. Perhaps a tilde. You will need to set up excel as well to
use the new character. Just make sure that if you have such a character in
any text field you escape it.

Regards

Chuck

On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 5:09 PM Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> I would like to be able to embed a return and/or line feed into column
> in a tab delimited file (opening with Excel).
>
> ex:
> data  data  text data with return more data  data
> 
>
> Excel will give me:
> Col1Col2Col3
> DataDatatext data with
> more data   data
>
>
> I can not see a way to do this.
> Is it possible?
> if so, how?
>
> Thanks
> Chip
> ---
> Gas is for washing parts
> Alcohol is for drinkin'
> Nitromethane is for racing
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v13 - Exporting tab delimited

[Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech]

I would like to be able to embed a return and/or line feed into column 
in a tab delimited file (opening with Excel).

ex:
data  data  text data with return more data  data 


Excel will give me:
Col1Col2Col3
DataDatatext data with
more data   data


I can not see a way to do this.
Is it possible?
if so, how?

Thanks
Chip
---
Gas is for washing parts
Alcohol is for drinkin'
Nitromethane is for racing 
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