Re: [9fans] nix at lsub
OpenGL (within its scope) covers several platforms at once, and anyway has to be handled somehow. Early in Inferno's history, I looked at the then version OpenGL but since at the time it kept drawing state hidden (similar to PostScript), and largely global, and the designers hadn't discovered data structures yet, it wasn't clear whether one could do a pleasant interface to it. To judge from (say) the current Python interface, probably not. Still putrid, but there's apparently not a lot you can do. (OpenVG by contrast seemed much better done, but that's 2D.) On 19 April 2012 05:15, Jeff Sickel j...@corpus-callosum.com wrote: better to go native drawing libraries with Cocoa or OpenGL.
Re: [9fans] nix at lsub
I've intended to see if I can glean any wisdom from the Android interface to OpenGL but have had neither the time nor motivation. Anyone here know if it's a model to learn from? -joe On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Charles Forsyth charles.fors...@gmail.comwrote: OpenGL (within its scope) covers several platforms at once, and anyway has to be handled somehow. Early in Inferno's history, I looked at the then version OpenGL but since at the time it kept drawing state hidden (similar to PostScript), and largely global, and the designers hadn't discovered data structures yet, it wasn't clear whether one could do a pleasant interface to it. To judge from (say) the current Python interface, probably not. Still putrid, but there's apparently not a lot you can do. (OpenVG by contrast seemed much better done, but that's 2D.) On 19 April 2012 05:15, Jeff Sickel j...@corpus-callosum.com wrote: better to go native drawing libraries with Cocoa or OpenGL.
Re: [9fans] nix at lsub
On 19 April 2012 09:16, Joseph Stewart joseph.stew...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone here know if it's a model to learn from? Another glance, and I'd say it's similar to the others (except for the onXYZ style of programming). Because GL is fairly big and complicated, everyone copies the original interface conventions precisely. That way you can look it up in the manual. Unfortunately, it means you get FORTRAN in every language. (The original target might have been C, but it looks like FORTRAN in any language. There are older graphics interfaces in C that have data structures, so it's not impossible.) Thus, you get // Enabled the vertices buffer for writing and to be used during // rendering. gl.glFrontFace(GL10.GL_CCW); // OpenGL docs // Enable face culling. gl.glEnable(GL10.GL_CULL_FACE); // OpenGL docs // What faces to remove with the face culling. gl.glCullFace(GL10.GL_BACK); // OpenGL docs // Enabled the vertices buffer for writing and to be used during // rendering. gl.glEnableClientState(GL10.GL_VERTEX_ARRAY);// OpenGL docs. // Specifies the location and data format of an array of vertex // coordinates to use when rendering. gl.glVertexPointer(3, GL10.GL_FLOAT, 0, // OpenGL docs vertexBuffer); gl.glDrawElements(GL10.GL_TRIANGLES, indices.length,// OpenGL docs GL10.GL_UNSIGNED_SHORT, indexBuffer); // Disable the vertices buffer. gl.glDisableClientState(GL10.GL_VERTEX_ARRAY); // OpenGL docs // Disable face culling. gl.glDisable(GL10.GL_CULL_FACE); // OpenGL docs Note the state, and the stylish gl.gl Stutter and suffer! But wait!, I hear you cry. State, callbacks, no data structures to speak of, ... why don't we look at how they handle this stuff in ... Haskell! (Monads, and a learning curve, though you can then build up something that's not entirely graphics machine code.)
Re: [9fans] nix at lsub
On Apr 19, 2012, at 1:46 AM, Charles Forsyth charles.fors...@gmail.com wrote: But wait!, I hear you cry. State, callbacks, no data structures to speak of, ... why don't we look at how they handle this stuff in ... Haskell! (Monads, and a learning curve, though you can then build up something that's not entirely graphics machine code.) It is a big state machine because you have to give it a lot of state the 3D h/w does do a lot of complicated things! SGI had open inventor, a scene graph level C++ API but it didn't really go anywhere it seems. But I think openGL 3.0+ and openGL ES 2.0 with their programmable pipeline can map well to a fileserver, where you write your data to the openGL server and the GPU does all the heavy lifting. This can also work reasonably well where the 3D h/w is a few tens of microseconds away from your cpu. I have a partial paper design but long way to go. A prototype is needed to see how well this will perform. An openInventor/coin3D/ivy (in scheme) kind of GUI library can be build on top of that.
Re: [9fans] nix at lsub
I wasn't too worried about getting a file system interface to it. I'd supposed that would be tedious (from the size of the language) but straightforward, similar in principle to draw(2). Draw's programming interface can, however, present Images, Screens, Points, Rectangles, Screens, Fonts, and so on as values that can be created and manipulated like any other. Obviously there's still an underlying state in the image currently drawn in an Image, or on a Display. By contrast, OpenGL has things like this: None of the matrix manipulation commands have an explicit parameter to control which matrix they affect. Instead, OpenGL maintains a current matrix mode that determines which matrix type the previously mentioned matrix manipulation commands actually affects and each matrix type has its own a stack of matrices. (That's followed in a document I'm looking at by all the ways you can get into trouble with this, but how much faster it all is!) And, that state is program global. Still, that's what there is!
[9fans] git and (p9p) acme
Hello, Is anyone using git with p9p acme set as the editor? Most things here work fine (as long as the pager is set to cat or something like that), but I've been having problems with 'git commit --amend'. If I use B as the $EDITOR, git considers the log file edited as soon as it is opened in acme (and does not wait for a Put), and if I use E instead (which I thought was meant for that), git does not notice when I Put the file, so it just hangs there. Am I missing something? is there a simple solution to that? Cheers, Mathieu
Re: [9fans] git and (p9p) acme
hi list, On Thursday 19 of April 2012 13:51:40 Mathieu Lonjaret wrote: Is anyone using git with p9p acme set as the editor? i have the following in ~dexen/.profile export VISUAL=E if [ $DISPLAY ]; then nohup plumber /dev/null /dev/null 2/dev/null fi plus a few custom rules in ~dexen/lib/plumbing to deal with PHP's `FILE on line LINE' convention in error messages etc. Most things here work fine (as long as the pager is set to cat or something like that), but I've been having problems with 'git commit --amend'. If I use B as the $EDITOR, git considers the log file edited as soon as it is opened in acme (and does not wait for a Put), and if I use E instead (which I thought was meant for that), git does not notice when I Put the file, so it just hangs there. Am I missing something? is there a simple solution to that? i use `git gui' for commits, but had similar problem with `git rebase -i'. git did not notice change in file when i merely re-ordered commits, cause the total length stays the same, and mtime somehow doesn't get listed by `ls -l'. git notices change of file when the editor exit()s. E has a simple loop around `ls -l $1' to detect file change; exit()s when it notices change in ls' output. if you have strange output of `ls', E may not notice change. a possible workaround is to change length of the file -- add something in the comment (hashed-out) section of commit message. in case of `git rebase -i', change `edit' to `e'. or re-implement E, really. caveat: using VISUAL=E with git, be wary of saving the file several times; the first Put will cause git to go ahead and subsequent changes to file will most likely be ignored. cheers, -- dexen deVries Weightless and alone you speed through the eerie nothingness of space you circle 'round the Moon and journey back to face the punishing torment of re-entry -- LUNA-C, ``Supaset8 (full release)'', #24m52s
Re: [9fans] git and (p9p) acme
Is anyone using git with p9p acme set as the editor? Most things here work fine (as long as the pager is set to cat or something like that), but I've been having problems with 'git commit --amend'. If I use B as the $EDITOR, git considers the log file edited as soon as it is opened in acme (and does not wait for a Put), and if I use E instead (which I thought was meant for that), git does not notice when I Put the file, so it just hangs there. Am I missing something? is there a simple solution to that? I do. Rather than remembering what I did, I'll link to my environment: http://code.google.com/p/aram-dotfiles/source/browse/ Check the big Plan 9 branch in profile: http://code.google.com/p/aram-dotfiles/source/browse/profile -- Aram Hăvărneanu
Re: [9fans] git and (p9p) acme
dexen deVries wrote: caveat: using VISUAL=E with git, be wary of saving the file several times; the first Put will cause git to go ahead and subsequent changes to file will most likely be ignored. Great caveat, it bit me once. -- Aram Hăvărneanu
Re: [9fans] nix at lsub
On Apr 18, 2012, at 2:05 PM, arn...@skeeve.com wrote: having to write the same set of GUI interfaces three times (X11, windows, Mac OS). I'd like to put in a good word for Plan 9, in case it gets forgotten. And, yes, Qt does not support Plan 9, I guess we'll need to find some compromise, if at all possible. ++L Good point. Unfortunately, until Plan 9 grows a C++ compiler, Qt isn't an option for it. If/when that does happen, it would be a worthwhile thing to have there (In My Humble Opinion, of course :-). We would be glad to work further on such a C++ port with anybody who can handle the Qt end of things so anybody interested in exploring such an endeavor should discuss with us. - Greg
Re: [9fans] nix at lsub
We would be glad to work further on such a C++ port with anybody who can handle the Qt end of things so anybody interested in exploring such an endeavor should discuss with us. I have a friend who is totally sold on LLVM, but I note that it is itself written in C++, so bootstrapping would be difficult (I think I still have a running version of GCC 3.0, . As for me, I guess I was waiting for the opportunity to point out that the Go Nuts are discussing options for a visual interface for Go which is where I would place my bets. Still, the point that the infrastructure could be based on an existing code base is not to be frowned upon. I suspect that in this particular instance we're either going to get very strong leadership producing a robust, but easily criticised outcome, or a weak community that produces a wishy-washy compromise that pleases no one, but is just good enough and will become the next bloated standard. I'm happy to take part in the former project. ++L
Re: [9fans] nix at lsub
On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 11:32:03 BST Charles Forsyth charles.fors...@gmail.com wrote: I wasn't too worried about getting a file system interface to it. I'd supposed that would be tedious (from the size of the language) but straightforward, similar in principle to draw(2). A filesystem interface seems to simplify things quite a bit. Draw's programming interface can, however, present Images, Screens, Points, Rectangles, Screens, Fonts, and so on as values that can be created and manipulated like any other. This can be built on top of the above. A /dev/draw shim wouldn't be too hard either. In a sense openGL is at the machine assembly language level while screens, rectangles, fonts etc are at a higher language level. Obviously there's still an underlying state in the image currently drawn in an Image, or on a Display. By contrast, OpenGL has things like this: None of the matrix manipulation commands have an explicit parameter to control which matrix they affect. Instead, OpenGL maintains a current matrix mode that determines which matrix type the previously mentioned matrix manipulation commands actually affects and each matrix type has its own a stack of matrices. (That's followed in a document I'm looking at by all the ways you can get into trouble with this, but how much faster it all is!) And, that state is program global. Still, that's what there is! Indeed but GL ES 2 is simpler by virtue of leaving out fixed pipeline functions etc. We may as well make the best use of it when a $35 computer can provide a high performance openGL implementation!
Re: [9fans] nix at lsub
On Apr 19, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Lucio De Re lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: We would be glad to work further on such a C++ port with anybody who can handle the Qt end of things so anybody interested in exploring such an endeavor should discuss with us. I have a friend who is totally sold on LLVM, but I note that it is itself written in C++, so bootstrapping would be difficult (I think I still have a running version of GCC 3.0, Speaking with their developers a few years ago they did not think it was a good idea/reasonably feasible. I may be biased, but still sure some general flavor of Comeau for Plan 9 could be a near term and not expensive endeavor (though it depends upon ones definition of inexpensive too I guess). And Qt definitely has its place in the world. - Greg
Re: [9fans] nix at lsub
I may be biased, but still sure some general flavor of Comeau for Plan 9 could be a near term and not expensive endeavor (though it depends upon ones definition of inexpensive too I guess). And Qt definitely has its place in the world. I've bought the Go faith lock, stock and barrel, to mix a couple of metaphors. And I like Go specifically because its core belief is that it is high time conventions were tossed out the window. I am actually quite frustrated because I feel that evolution in the IT field is taking a path of least resistance (I have occasionally pressed Russ Cox to relent on the policy of minimal change in the Go toolchain, I seldom, if ever, won on principle) and wish I had words like a hammer to promote a much more aggressive approach to do what is right rather than what is expedient. I'd like to mention, for example, the idea expressed here that a $35 device will give you 3D capabilities. Sure, but the same $35 could give you considerably more and accepting what's on offer is, in my opinion, wimping out. Maybe I can immodestly (and probably untruthfully) say that _I_ could do better than that and that so could many others in this forum and we are all compelled to sacrifice our possible contributions to a better world by those in the industry that know how to manipulate our gratification sensors. I could list many examples (and so no doubt could each one of us here) of benefits whose real cost is much higher than the amount of dollars being spent on them. In some respects I am fortunate: I live in an old Apartheid-built small town in South Africa and the digital divide is so obvious here, yet there is no real cause for it. But I don't have the skill to express how infuriating it all is... What I'm looking for is to replace obsolescence with efficiency: 3000 pupils in my immediate vicinity could enjoy much better access to the Internet (_any_ access to the Internet) if I could deploy KA9Q over MSDOS as the primary software on 8088 based computers. I know this because back in 1992 I had precisely that hardware serving single dial-up connections from a small community of BBSers. These children don't need pr0n or video clips, Facebook or twitter, they need text access, e-mail, the much maligned and damaged e-news, just as I found them useful back in the very early 1990s. But we are stealing that from them by moving the entry bar ever higher so that our obsolete computers and our mobile phones with dead batteries and incompatible SIM cards, VGA monitors, memory simms and all manners of perfectly useful IT equipment cannot conceivably be deployed to improve their standard of living and their ability to catch up. What I'm looking for is the community that is savvy enough to embrace new technology and caring enough to propagate their gains to those who do not have the same access to that technology instead of making sure of the opposite. I don't believe that there is a conflict, in fact, I think that's the only option open to us, I'm just waving its flag a little ahead of the tsunami. And that tsunami includes Go, Plan 9, possibly Android, vx32 and Raspberry Pie. I pray that I'm not just a crazy visionary. Anyway, sorry to rant like this, I don't even know if it made me feel any better to do it, I do hope that some of you will see things from my perspective and perhaps my feelings will resonate with your own. Lucio.
Re: [9fans] nix at lsub
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 1:56 PM, Lucio De Re lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: I may be biased, but still sure some general flavor of Comeau for Plan 9 could be a near term and not expensive endeavor (though it depends upon ones definition of inexpensive too I guess). And Qt definitely has its place in the world. I've bought the Go faith lock, stock and barrel, to mix a couple of metaphors. And I like Go specifically because its core belief is that it is high time conventions were tossed out the window. I am actually quite frustrated because I feel that evolution in the IT field is taking a path of least resistance (I have occasionally pressed Russ Cox to relent on the policy of minimal change in the Go toolchain, I seldom, if ever, won on principle) and wish I had words like a hammer to promote a much more aggressive approach to do what is right rather than what is expedient. IMO, there is nothing generally wrong with taking the path of least resistence, so long as open is open minded and also so long as it is not the only path being considered. I'd like to mention, for example, the idea expressed here that a $35 device will give you 3D capabilities. Sure, but the same $35 could give you considerably more and accepting what's on offer is, in my opinion, wimping out. Maybe I can immodestly (and probably untruthfully) say that _I_ could do better than that and that so could many others in this forum and we are all compelled to sacrifice our possible contributions to a better world by those in the industry that know how to manipulate our gratification sensors. I could list many examples (and so no doubt could each one of us here) of benefits whose real cost is much higher than the amount of dollars being spent on them. In some respects I am fortunate: I live in an old Apartheid-built small town in South Africa and the digital divide is so obvious here, yet there is no real cause for it. But I don't have the skill to express how infuriating it all is... What I'm looking for is to replace obsolescence with efficiency: 3000 pupils in my immediate vicinity could enjoy much better access to the Internet (_any_ access to the Internet) if I could deploy KA9Q over MSDOS as the primary software on 8088 based computers. I know this because back in 1992 I had precisely that hardware serving single dial-up connections from a small community of BBSers. These children don't need pr0n or video clips, Facebook or twitter, they need text access, e-mail, the much maligned and damaged e-news, just as I found them useful back in the very early 1990s. But we are stealing that from them by moving the entry bar ever higher so that our obsolete computers and our mobile phones with dead batteries and incompatible SIM cards, VGA monitors, memory simms and all manners of perfectly useful IT equipment cannot conceivably be deployed to improve their standard of living and their ability to catch up. Understood. What I'm looking for is the community that is savvy enough to embrace new technology and caring enough to propagate their gains to those who do not have the same access to that technology instead of making sure of the opposite. I don't believe that there is a conflict, in fact, I think that's the only option open to us, I'm just waving its flag a little ahead of the tsunami. And that tsunami includes Go, Plan 9, possibly Android, vx32 and Raspberry Pie. I pray that I'm not just a crazy visionary. Why not pray that you *are* a crazy visionary? :) Anyway, sorry to rant like this, I don't even know if it made me feel any better to do it, I do hope that some of you will see things from my perspective and perhaps my feelings will resonate with your own. Lucio. -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] nix at lsub
IMO, there is nothing generally wrong with taking the path of least resistence, so long as open is open minded and also so long as it is not the only path being considered. Except that by definition the path of least resistance is the only one of its type. You buy the reason, you paint yourself in the corner. I do grant that one may choose the path of least resistance for reasons other than the ostensible one, but I doubt that would be anything more than an accident. Can you see where my reasonaing takes me? ++L
Re: [9fans] nix at lsub
Why not pray that you *are* a crazy visionary? :) Too many years of logic, I'm a very rational materialist. But thank you for the suggestion, it gave me reason to smile. I do get plenty, in their lack of technical sophistication , my previously disadvantaged neighbours have a great deal of warmth and friendship to share. All the more reason for me to wish to help them. ++L
