Re: [9fans] Thinkpad 345cs
On 17 July 2012 10:30, hiro neu 23h...@gmail.com wrote: now just get that x series in the corner of the picture up and running :P Calvin -sent from my X220
Re: [9fans] Thinkpad 345cs
those others are already working nicely ;) also see http://h1ro.dyndns.org/nein/x20.jpg and http://h1ro.dyndns.org/nein/ac100.jpg
Re: [9fans] Thinkpad 345cs
On 17 July 2012 11:03, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: those others are already working nicely ;) also see http://h1ro.dyndns.org/nein/x20.jpg and http://h1ro.dyndns.org/nein/ac100.jpg wow awesome! Calvin
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 09:49:20 -0400 Wes Kussmaul w...@authentrus.com wrote: On Mon, 2012-07-16 at 08:44 +, opryy...@gmail.com wrote: Another neat comparison of 44 tiny devices: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4035896/a320_downloads/SBC_comparison44.pdf No mention of the $16 Teensy? http://www.pjrc.com/ It's an 8-bit, what are you going to put on it, CP-M? ;) Granted, some of the old 8-bit OSs can be quite nice. I really like the one in the Atari 800, it has a really unified device interface, but it's no Plan 9. Actually I've toyed with the idea of a Plan 9 from 8-bit space. It would be a fun challenge, I think, and I'd be interested to find exactly what compromises would be needed. It may even be less of a challenge than writing drivers for the crap peripherals ARM SOCs always seem to be burdened with, but what could you do with it when it was done? ...or the Arduino? An overpriced and underpowered member of a class of devices that are far short of running Plan 9 in the first place. And why on Earth is it programmed in C++? -- This is obviously some strange usage of the word simple that I was previously unaware of.
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
Actually I've toyed with the idea of a Plan 9 from 8-bit space. It would be a fun challenge, I think, and I'd be interested to find exactly what compromises would be needed. It may even be less of a challenge than writing drivers for the crap peripherals ARM SOCs always seem to be burdened with, but what could you do with it when it was done? you don't want plan 9 on an 8 bit machine. - erik
Re: [9fans] 8c and elf shared libraries
On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 01:42:55 -0400 erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: Thinking it over, I'd rather use the regular Linux toolchain for the task. You can still write sensible C for gcc to compile, and I think we don't know what the task is. Fair point. I had stared at the email until I thought I knew what it was about. Bad habit of mine. you'll have a lot less work to do. Besides, it's the approach taken by p9p, inferno, and drawterm, it works well for them. invoking the transitive property of the unknown. - erik -- This is obviously some strange usage of the word simple that I was previously unaware of.
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
More to the point, you don't want any OS on an 8 bit machine. A small driver library, maybe. But really, 8 bit machines today are just for fun little micro-control projects and you really don't want an OS in the way. The first thing I did to make an arduino useful was reclaim the timer thread that the arduino OS steals from you... Paul On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 9:53 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: Actually I've toyed with the idea of a Plan 9 from 8-bit space. It would be a fun challenge, I think, and I'd be interested to find exactly what compromises would be needed. It may even be less of a challenge than writing drivers for the crap peripherals ARM SOCs always seem to be burdened with, but what could you do with it when it was done? you don't want plan 9 on an 8 bit machine. - erik
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 12:53:05PM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote: you don't want plan 9 on an 8 bit machine. - erik Thanks for letting him know, erik. Please also explain his other hardware opinions, I think he's looking for a keyboard
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
it's an Atmel AVR. we did z[acl] for the ATmega128 in the Berkeley mote, which is an 8-bit AVR, and I wrote a little 16/32 bit kernel for it. On 17 July 2012 17:51, Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote: It's an 8-bit, what are you going to put on it,
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
You do on the wireless motes, because you have several networks and a file system. There isn't a user mode of course, but there are applications. ours was a noise monitoring system to some international noise-monitoring standard. On 17 July 2012 18:33, Paul Lalonde paul.a.lalo...@gmail.com wrote: A small driver library, maybe. But really, 8 bit machines today are just for fun little micro-control projects and you really don't want an OS in the way.
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
On Tue Jul 17 13:35:18 EDT 2012, kh...@intma.in wrote: On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 12:53:05PM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote: you don't want plan 9 on an 8 bit machine. - erik Thanks for letting him know, erik. Please also explain his other hardware opinions, I think he's looking for a keyboard it's an opinion that 8 bits don't have mmus? that's taking relativism to a whole new level. - erik
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 02:16:00PM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote: it's an opinion that 8 bits don't have mmus? that's taking relativism to a whole new level. your original message didn't contain anything approaching useful content
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
you don't want plan 9 on an 8 bit machine. Which, of course, doesn't say anything about wanting styx/9p on such a machine. Every time we get to this point in this (recurring) conversation, I'm compelled to make sure everyone has seen the excellent Styx on a Brick paper, describing work to export the sensors and motors connected to a Lego Mindstorm controller over styx. http://inferno-os.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/lego.pdf signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
On Tue Jul 17 14:44:28 EDT 2012, a...@9srv.net wrote: you don't want plan 9 on an 8 bit machine. Which, of course, doesn't say anything about wanting styx/9p on such a machine. Every time we get to this point in this (recurring) conversation, I'm compelled to make sure everyone has seen the excellent Styx on a Brick paper, describing work to export the sensors and motors connected to a Lego Mindstorm controller over styx. http://inferno-os.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/lego.pdf don't forget jeff's pic controllers. - erik
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
https://github.com/echoline/NinePea too (it needs work) On Jul 17, 2012 11:52 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: On Tue Jul 17 14:44:28 EDT 2012, a...@9srv.net wrote: you don't want plan 9 on an 8 bit machine. Which, of course, doesn't say anything about wanting styx/9p on such a machine. Every time we get to this point in this (recurring) conversation, I'm compelled to make sure everyone has seen the excellent Styx on a Brick paper, describing work to export the sensors and motors connected to a Lego Mindstorm controller over styx. http://inferno-os.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/lego.pdf don't forget jeff's pic controllers. - erik
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 17:51:13 BST Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote: Actually I've toyed with the idea of a Plan 9 from 8-bit space. It would be a fun challenge, I think, and I'd be interested to find exactly what compromises would be needed. It may even be less of a challenge than writing drivers for the crap peripherals ARM SOCs always seem to be burdened with, but what could you do with it when it was done? What would be possible is to build a general purpose building block. Something like this: - provide a tiny thread library - provide 9p over USB|serial|UDP - implement a simple 9p server framework export a server side interface where one can plug in sensor/actuator specific routines and specify the FS layout via a string. - implement a namespace convention for discovering capabilities (for example a help/ dir) - it should be implementable as a verilog block some day! may be not but imagining that keeps the design simple. Actually it doesn't have to be 9p. It can be something simpler.
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
why does this have a .cpp file? On 7/17/12, Eli Cohen echol...@gmail.com wrote: https://github.com/echoline/NinePea too (it needs work) On Jul 17, 2012 11:52 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: On Tue Jul 17 14:44:28 EDT 2012, a...@9srv.net wrote: you don't want plan 9 on an 8 bit machine. Which, of course, doesn't say anything about wanting styx/9p on such a machine. Every time we get to this point in this (recurring) conversation, I'm compelled to make sure everyone has seen the excellent Styx on a Brick paper, describing work to export the sensors and motors connected to a Lego Mindstorm controller over styx. http://inferno-os.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/lego.pdf don't forget jeff's pic controllers. - erik
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
Actually it doesn't have to be 9p. It can be something simpler. you should read the iwp9 papers! - erik
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
On 7/17/12, Bakul Shah ba...@bitblocks.com wrote: On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 17:51:13 BST Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote: Actually I've toyed with the idea of a Plan 9 from 8-bit space. It would be a fun challenge, I think, and I'd be interested to find exactly what compromises would be needed. It may even be less of a challenge than writing drivers for the crap peripherals ARM SOCs always seem to be burdened with, but what could you do with it when it was done? What would be possible is to build a general purpose building block. Something like this: - provide a tiny thread library - provide 9p over USB|serial|UDP - implement a simple 9p server framework export a server side interface where one can plug in sensor/actuator specific routines and specify the FS layout via a string. - implement a namespace convention for discovering capabilities (for example a help/ dir) - it should be implementable as a verilog block some day! may be not but imagining that keeps the design simple. Actually it doesn't have to be 9p. It can be something simpler. well, then do it if you think so.
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
What would be possible is to build a general purpose building block. Something like this: - provide a tiny thread library - provide 9p over USB|serial|UDP - implement a simple 9p server framework export a server side interface where one can plug in sensor/actuator specific routines and specify the FS layout via a string. - implement a namespace convention for discovering capabilities (for example a help/ dir) - it should be implementable as a verilog block some day! may be not but imagining that keeps the design simple. Actually it doesn't have to be 9p. It can be something simpler. well, then do it if you think so. what i was trying to say before, is that there is already some research in the area. it doesn't have to be proven possible. see: 9p for embedded devices http://iwp9.inf.uth.gr/. and levitating across the river styx http://4e.iwp9.org/papers/levitation.pdf - erik
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
On 2012-07-17 21:16 , erik quanstrom wrote: Actually it doesn't have to be 9p. It can be something simpler. you should read the iwp9 papers! - erik by the way, are there papers/slides from 6th(2011)? haven't seen them signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:33:59 EDT erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: What would be possible is to build a general purpose building block. Something like this: - provide a tiny thread library - provide 9p over USB|serial|UDP - implement a simple 9p server framework export a server side interface where one can plug in sensor/actuator specific routines and specify the FS layout via a string. - implement a namespace convention for discovering capabilities (for example a help/ dir) - it should be implementable as a verilog block some day! may be not but imagining that keeps the design simple. Actually it doesn't have to be 9p. It can be something simpler. well, then do it if you think so. what i was trying to say before, is that there is already some research in the area. it doesn't have to be proven possible. see: 9p for embedded devices http://iwp9.inf.uth.gr/. and levitating across the river styx http://4e.iwp9.org/papers/levitation.pdf I have read the styx papers. The concept is of course not new. What I am talking about is packaging up as a reusable component. Specifically - server side api - ability to discover capabilities. no new client side drivers for each new device. As for simpler than 9p I had a different thing in mind from what is in various iwp9 papers. Not worth talking about in the abstract.
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
Arduino uses C++. I guess it could be a .c file, though. On Jul 17, 2012 12:14 PM, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: why does this have a .cpp file? On 7/17/12, Eli Cohen echol...@gmail.com wrote: https://github.com/echoline/NinePea too (it needs work) On Jul 17, 2012 11:52 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: On Tue Jul 17 14:44:28 EDT 2012, a...@9srv.net wrote: you don't want plan 9 on an 8 bit machine. Which, of course, doesn't say anything about wanting styx/9p on such a machine. Every time we get to this point in this (recurring) conversation, I'm compelled to make sure everyone has seen the excellent Styx on a Brick paper, describing work to export the sensors and motors connected to a Lego Mindstorm controller over styx. http://inferno-os.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/lego.pdf don't forget jeff's pic controllers. - erik
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
by the way, are there papers/slides from 6th(2011)? haven't seen them ; hget http://iwp9.org/iwp96e.pdf|page - erik
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
don't forget jeff's pic controllers. perhaps I have forgotten, perhaps I missed them link please ? -Steve
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
On Tue Jul 17 16:34:44 EDT 2012, st...@quintile.net wrote: don't forget jeff's pic controllers. perhaps I have forgotten, perhaps I missed them link please ? see http://9fans.net/archive/2012/07/49 http://4e.iwp9.org/papers/levitation.pdf - erik
Re: [9fans] 8c and elf shared libraries
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote: On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:15:26 +0100 Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote: Various projects have worked on 8c to make it generate code for other OSs, have any of these resulted in code that could generate a very _very_ simple ELF shared library sutiable for linux? -Steve The 8l in Go can produce ELF binaries -- it's the linker rather than the compiler you want to look at for this. Last I heard, Go's 8l wasn't compatible with Plan 9's 8c, but there's an 8c in Go so that doesn't matter too much. I'm sure some Go fans want to use system C libraries by dynamic linking, but I'm not so sure about producing a linkable library. Though I cannot find the message now, I recall Russ commenting to someone that the Go linker is not tooled for C ELF binaries; it is very Go specific. Having worked on the NetBSD port and had to spelunk the linker, I believe that to be true. Russ would be the better authority, though. The ?c compilers included with Go are derivatives of Inferno's ?c compilers. -- Christopher Nielsen They who can give up essential liberty for temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. --Benjamin Franklin The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots tyrants. --Thomas Jefferson
Re: [9fans] 8c and elf shared libraries
Thanks to all who have replied. I have spoken to russ; 8l may be able to generate object files soon, but there is no plan for support for shared libraries. Its OK, I still have some options: use gcc/gas/gld on linux generate the shared library as a blind data file on plan9 modify (hack) an existing linux shared library as a data file on plan9 the first seems the obvious choice but I would rather not have to rely on an existing linux system, and extracting the correct build options from linux's build structure is... complex. its not as vile as it sounds the shared library in question is the linux vdso systemcall interface and its tiny (three entry points from memory), its just a shame that I have been unable to come up with an clean way of generating the file on plan9. -Steve
Re: [9fans] 8c and elf shared libraries
I don't think any of them generate the right addressing to implement a dynamic library (in the Linux style). Data is addressed directly, assuming one data per text. Dynamic libraries need to create a data segment for each application sharing the library text, so the references to the data somehow need to be indirect. There is usually some form of indirect linkage to do that, although I don't know the details for the Linux/ELF variant.
Re: [9fans] 8c and elf shared libraries
i wonder if you could use the gs global register trick and a bit of runtime setup to implement this. (ducks) - erik
Re: [9fans] apparently nice summary of small linux pcs
thanks for all the links - this thread is getting useful :)
Re: [9fans] 8c and elf shared libraries
Normally with these schemes you need to save and restore the module (data) pointer appropriately for calls in and out of the library. Each library has its own data. For the library to be used by Linux applications you'd need to mimic the conventions expected by the Linux programs closely. The code also needs to be position-independent (in most of the methods I've seen). The machines aren't well-suited for the software we now run. We spend quite a bit of time emulating protected procedures and dynamic linkage. On 17 July 2012 22:59, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: i wonder if you could use the gs global register trick and a bit of runtime setup to implement this. (ducks) - erik
Re: [9fans] 8c and elf shared libraries
just use cygwin
