Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 17:38, sirjofri wrote: > Hey vic, ... > Write your mails. Write them, don't send them. Read them again > carefully and think about the people reading it. They most likely > understand as much as you, and they have all the track record of > earlier discussions, so they very likely understand more than you. > Things are as they are for a reason. Not always for a good reason, but > for a reason. After thinking about your mail and the recipient, you may > revise/rewrite your mail or just throw it away. > > Last, we're not a company. People who do the work are the ones > organizing. Those people don't like to see strangers organizing their > stuff without any contribution. If you can write software, try to > organize yourself and give something back to the community. Hunt for > bugs and fix them, or write tools that helps people, or improve the > documentation. This should help the community much more than top-level > organization when there is no top-level. Thanks, Sirjofri, I really appreciate your message. I'll keep things more casual in this message. I didn't use Strunk & White, which would have really annoyed people, but I agree that my posts have been rushed and barely revised. I wanted to classify the topics to see if anyone was already working on them as it wasn't apparent. Some developers can be very territorial, and I didn't want to step into a mess. My plan was to ask around next. I see that the current team is very happy with the status quo. If the hacker culture rules are necessary, I'm definitely not a good fit. I should step aside to avoid being disruptive. I've been programming for a long time, and I work in a very different manner. I'd rather avoid the drama I've experienced the past few days. I can only imagine the hell it must be to contribute. I don't mean that in an offensive way, but I'm just looking back on the hazing that has been happening. **heavy sigh** I was told this is a flat model, yet I see there is a meritocracy and outdated rules as well as too much hazing occurring. Hazing alone is enough to off put someone. I surmise there is too much entitlement occurring which results in both hazing and a cancel culture. I am not trying to persuade you or anyone on 9fans, but rather I just want to show you what I see. I've worked on 160 million USD projects and have needed to fix personnel issues. I know this is not a company, but anyone that cannot see there are issues here has their head in the sand. I hope you take my comments as constructive. The intention of my comments to make things better. You've helped me see that I'm not a good cultural fit, which is good to know early. Again, thank you very much for your advice. Let me share a letter with you that I wrote to Bakul and then I'll leave 9fans. Thank you and goodbye. Hi Bakul, Thanks for reaching out. I trust you are well. I have my own personal Plan 9 distribution that I have been using for years, circa 2006. 9legacy and 9front are great, but I find it challenging to contribute. However, the 9legacy community has been much more friendly and helpful as you can imagine. I am grateful for past help. Whenever I witness the challenges faced between 9legacy and 9front communities, I can't help but feel responsible. Looking back, I see that my youthful inexperience played a role in deepening the rift between Plan 9 and what would become 9front. At the time, I failed to bridge the gap between influential opposition members, such as Uriel and 20h, and the foundational members of the community, like Russ Cox and others. Now, as I contemplate my legacy, my goal was to somehow mend the division and foster unity among the communities before my time ends. I think I could have prevented the need for 9front years ago and the community would had been in a better state today. That is my biggest regret that I have. That is one reason why I isolate myself. I am just not a good mediator nor communicator. Sadly, I don't have what it takes to bridge the gap. I think that my idea of mending the communities is too grand. Also, I'm saddened to see the more I try to help the worse the situation becomes. Kind regards, Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-Mcc7849731d5a3a69a3c464c6 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 19:35, hiro wrote: > it's not much of a degree if they don't require you to read Strunk & White Sure, I'll show you an example. It was one of the best scholarships available. You should have seen my writing before. ;-) Uriel admired Strunk & White. Today, many colleges follow the Purdue Writing Lab's guidance. Students learn the seven styles described by Strunk & White. Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M9dda42445a036304e91bed81 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 14:48, John the Scott wrote: > finding nothing on google for Nantahala. any links? > > -john Yes, that is by design. Working with a small number of clients is preferred. https://nantahala.systems is the site that mentions Plan 9. It deals with the hardware and software aspect. https://nantahalaoperations.com is a courtesy site for clients. Being a very small company, face to face pre-sale interactions are preferred for type of clients I deal with. Nantahala Holdings LLC does not have a website as it is not required. Since taking it down, there has been a reduction in the amount of bothersome solicitations by Citi and others. Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-Ma0109e3d1b985bcfc30d0023 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 16:39, pl...@room3420.net wrote: > It doesn't. I don't know if you're a troll or just not clever enough to > understand that you make everybody uncomfortable. > Hope this helps. Well, I am disappointed that you feel that way. I am definitely not a troll nor am I that clever. However, I can respond in kind if provoked. I'm human after all. I'll be frank and set boundaries if things get too far out of hand. Overall, I much prefer fostering friendly interactions in 9fans. I do not see the need for conflict and ill-will. I'm not attempting to create problems nor make anyone feel uncomfortable. However, I'll gladly respond in kind. If you want to call me a troll for responding in kind that is fine. However, please be fair minded and consider my perspective as well. Not everyone here is uncomfortable, but like you, I'm disappointed in how interactions have turned out, so we have that in common. I respond to empirical evidence, so I mentioned the concern about submitting feature and bug requests because it seemed that it would benefit Lucio and others. There is nothing wrong with helping others and setting expectations. I don't understand why that would be a problem. Clarity is better than misunderstanding. Regarding my writing style, it is shaped by years of government service and an M.A. degree. I understand that my style may be unusual. Before posting, I make an effort to revise my responses for clarity, which can result in longer messages. We can blame grammarly.com for some word choices as well. Kind regards, Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-Me8e9f5029e323348324f05fc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 15:11, Jacob Moody wrote: > At this point I can't really tell if you're using some LLM to be ironic > or if you actually think this junk > is of any substance. I am not sure how you don't see this copy pasta > garbage as anything else than a waste > of everyone else's inbox and time. No, I am not being ironic at all. I understand that you do not know me. I am a seriously minded 20-year public servant, and I once held Q access authorization, where everything is taken extremely seriously. Since retiring, I am still adapting to civilian life. Perhaps this explains why my son has me listed as Rambo on his mobile phone. I also have a very dry sense of humor. A better solution might be to inform others on how to interface with each community. For example, providing clear instructions on how to submit feature and bug requests. This is something I haven’t seen mentioned recently. It would be beneficial for each community to explain what is acceptable in these interactions. In lieu of that, I’ll simply post for clarity in the hope that it piques interest and fosters further conversations. Hope this helps. Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M45ffcc1c3b04e27033ef6ed3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
Firstly, congratulations to Lucio on the progress with getting Fossil running under 9front. A heartfelt thank you to everyone who offered their support and assistance to make this possible! I only say this as a person who wants to celebrate successes. FWIW, I’d like to help clarify the additional requests that Lucio has made to address each point effectively on a separate thread. Here are Lucio’s requests, organized by topic: Canonical Version of Fossil Unified Version: There is a need for a single, "canonical" version of Fossil to avoid confusion and fragmentation. Multiple versions can complicate usage and development. Inclusion of Sources in Distributions Key Source Inclusion: Including important sources like Fossil in the 9front distribution is crucial. Excluding these sources can lead to decisions made by a few contributors affecting all users, especially those unaware of the exclusions. 9legacy Boot and Installation USB Boot and Installation: For 9legacy, it’s essential to enable it to boot, install, and run from a USB stick on any PC hardware, with support for both IDE and SATA. This would enhance accessibility and user-friendliness. SSH2 Implementation Plan 9 Legacy: Lucio is encountering challenges in getting SSH2 to work in his Plan 9 legacy setup. Finding the right combination of patches has been difficult. Guidance or collaboration to achieve a stable implementation would be greatly appreciated. Cryptography and Security Secure Communication Tools: Discussions about cryptography have been enlightening, but implementing and maintaining secure communication tools like SSH and ssh-agent remains challenging. Support in this area would be beneficial. Version Control with Fossil and PostgreSQL Integration: Lucio is considering integrating "the other Fossil" with PostgreSQL running under NetBSD instead of embedded SQLite. This is complex, and any advice or assistance from experienced members would be invaluable. Porting and Updating Tools OpenLDAP Tools: Lucio has ported OpenLDAP tools to Plan 9 and uses them regularly, but they are based on an older version. Investigating the latest build options and updating these tools would be beneficial. Graphviz Update: Updating Graphviz past its early version to ensure better functionality and compatibility would help those relying on it. Licensing and Legal Support Legal Advice: Given the local culture of "sanction busting" and the rarity of IP prosecutions where Lucio lives, he hasn’t paid much attention to licensing. P9F could play a crucial role in providing legal advice and support to ensure adherence to licensing requirements. I hope you find this useful. Vic On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 13:46, Lucio De Re wrote: > If this comes across as a troll, keep in mind that it is your > interpretation that makes it so, a lesson we South Africans are still busy > learning, at our country's expense. > > I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those who prodded me > (and others). I would be happier knowing that there is a "canonical" > version rather than at least two varieties as appears to be the case from > the above discussion, but I'd rather not spoil the moment. > > My point all along was that if the source (Fossil or other) is not included > in the (9front) distribution, a (bad) decision is being made by arbitrary > (non)contributors for all the silent participants who may not even know > about it. Why would anyone want to play God? Isn't Google bad enough? > > I concede that I didn't know myself what I was looking for (I think what > "I" need is for 9legacy to boot, install and possibly run, from a USB stick > on any PC hardware, and support both IDE and SATA where present) and my > rather vague question was intended to make the details less sketchy. > Instead, I got a tirade about what I was or was not ready, willing or able > to contribute. Fortunately, that tends to have the desired effect with me, > so right now I haven't yet recovered my decades of pretty pointless effort, > but I know I can do it, with sufficient application, it is no longer lost > or teetering on edge of the abyss. > > As for the cryptography angle, that was an eye opener for sure and for > many, apparently. On my part, I still don't have SSH2 working from my own > Plan 9 "legacy", I haven't been able to shoehorn the right combination of > 9legacy patches into it. It is surprising that I haven't broken it entirely > and I know I came close to doing that on occasion. I had a working version > of ssh-agent working smoothly on my system, both for Plan 9 and P9P (both > Linux and NetBSD), but a hardware failure exposed my lack of discipline and > I haven't had the need or fortitude to recover the working "branch" from > Git, that version control is too complicated for me to feel comfortable > with it, I use it only under duress. Now, after suggestions on this forum > that support my impressions, I
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 02:54, Steve Simon wrote: > coraid has an interesting history. > > Brantley-Coile.jpg > How Silicon Valley can kill your business, by a man scolded by the > machine > <https://www.information-age.com/silicon-valley-can-kill-business-man-scolded-machine-6832/> > information-age.com > <https://www.information-age.com/silicon-valley-can-kill-business-man-scolded-machine-6832/> > > <https://www.information-age.com/silicon-valley-can-kill-business-man-scolded-machine-6832/> > > Brantley now has the Coraid name back too and is using plan9 to this day. > > -Steve Thank you, Steve, for sharing that. There are some valuable lessons in the article. The best lessons are often learned from experiences of others. It’s wonderful to learn that Coraid is still thriving, and that is something worth celebrating. If Brantley Coile still reads 9fans, thank you sir for being an inspiration to me and many others. Vester "Vic" Thacker -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M54084920d15fb3c4fee0b268 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 01:30, B. Atticus Grobe wrote: > Oh, I think it's great that people are using it. I simply find the > obfuscatory nature of your presentation to be suspicious. It is generally > considered to be good etiquette to disclose affiliations to a company > during discussions. Failure to do so is not necessarily damning, but is > certainly a 'red flag', at least for me. Sure, I see your point. It's similar to when people post without using their real names. While it's not necessarily incriminating, it does raise a 'red flag' and can be a cause for suspicion. Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-Mb12270d425e07866d8a14466 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
On Tue, May 14, 2024, at 23:12, B. Atticus Grobe wrote: > Taking the time to go through that, it's literally just you; your LLC. > Interesting the you didn't feel the need for transparency and simply say > 'this is my company.' The intention of this thread was to highlight which companies are using Plan 9. I mentioned two companies as examples. The use of Plan 9 should be celebrated. It's surprising to encounter complaints about its utilization. Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M94773fc85fb7590452d682a9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 21:56, hiro wrote: > citation needed https://sosenterprise.sd.gov/BusinessServices/Business/FictitiousDetail.aspx?CN=078243101203005056228191044241171252181195229085 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M5340b592e5058450c0beef4f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
Yes, that is curious. On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 22:59, G B wrote: > Curiously, I searched for Nantalala Systems and found an https link to > NANTAHALA SYSTEMS. *BEWARE: SEEMS TO BE BOGUS* > Under "store" they list two workstations they sell, both listed as > "sold out" that are > >- OS: FreeBSD with ᴁBSD customizations > > Under ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9) installation media for x86™ computers and ᴁOS (aka > ᴁ9) installation media for Raspberry PI™ computers there are "Learn > more" links that lead to "page not found." > At the bottom of the page: >- ᴁBSD (AMD64) is ᴁBSD customizations on FreeBSD 14.0-STABLE. >- GhostBSD is based on FreeBSD 14.0-STABLE. >- ᴁBSD (AARCH64) is ᴁBSD customizations on FreeBSD 15-CURRENT. >- ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9) is based on Plan 9. > > On the Support page, if you happened to somehow purchase one of those > workstations and need assistance, you need to contact them the only way > possible: Email: hello@nantahala.systems > > Netcraft shows the hosting country as Australia. The domain registrar > is unknown. The SSL/TLS certificate issued by Let's Encrypt is for > "From Mar 14 2024 to Jun 12 2024 (2 months, 4 weeks)" . > > > > On Monday, May 13, 2024 at 07:58:20 AM CDT, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > citation needed > > On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 1:58 PM wrote: >> >> On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 18:38, hiro wrote: >> > how did you find out about this company, i never saw it mentioned >> > anywhere before? >> >> I don't spend my time trolling 9fans. ;-) >> >> Vic > -- > 9fans: 9fans > Permalink: > https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-Mf58cc718484d6a1fce4d858b > Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M0837cfbe72e42ecd86478a75 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 18:38, hiro wrote: > how did you find out about this company, i never saw it mentioned > anywhere before? I don't spend my time trolling 9fans. ;-) Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M59ea1a26d206f6c427eaef2b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 18:22, ibrahim wrote: ... > plan9 is simply the final release made by bell labs and now owned by > p9f. Thats not my interpretation this is a fact. Everything beyond that > point is a fork based on plan9. > > Everyone is allowed to derive his/her work from this provided version of > plan9. > > 9front is a fork, 9legacy is a fork and there were other forks. I have > my own fork. If tomorrow another one decides to fork plan9 than thats > okay. I think that is a constructive way to view it. ... > The only thing we can agree on as fork developers is what is officially > called plan9 as a basement for exchange of code ideas aso. Code that > can be compiled and executed on the official release is one that can be > exchanged. That is a good point. However, the question becomes how can we contribute to the original source repository? It would be nice to have the baseline updated so that more forks can be created with fewer updates needed to be relevant. Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M0bef10695cfd8b7a823b2ce4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
Thank you, Sirjofri, nice idea. There are two private U.S. companies that are investing, developing, and using a closed source Plan 9 distribution called ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9). The companies have been in existence since 2020. Nantahala Holdings, LLC Nantahala Operations, LLC (dba Nantahala Systems) Vic On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 17:10, sirjofri wrote: > Hey all, > > Just about one topic mentioned by ibrahim: > > You mentioned that 9front can't be plan 9 in your perspective because > of this licensing and the "origin" of the licensing. > >> 9front isn't plan9 from my perspective. Plan 9 is the final release with >> patches for the files from sources I can be sure that those aren't taken >> from open source projects by copy and paste. > [1] > > I would make a big difference between what plan 9 is and what the > licenses are. Software doesn't care about licenses. People do (and they > should!). > > So what is plan 9 even? Can we compare it to UNIX™ or unix or posix? > Who knows... > > I guess I could say a lot more about that topic, but I guess that's > enough and you can puzzle everything else yourself. > > [1] (I would be very careful with such bold words. I feel like 9front > people have heard this phrase a lot and it's probably very thin ice for > a few people.) > > --- > > About another topic: you mentioned that plan 9 is in use for commercial > products, and you explicitly mention german medical sensors. I've never > heard about that and I'd like to learn more, as well as about other > companies who actually use plan 9. > > Everything I always hear in the industry is that plan 9 is outdated and > nobody uses it and nobody wants to hear about it. I only know of a > single company that uses it (coraid), plus a few little projects by taw > that could evolve into commercial products. > > I sometimes thought about building a list of companies that use plan 9 > technology, just so people can get involved with them, and now that I'm > searching for a new job that's even more interesting for me personally. > (Not sure if I want to do plan 9 as $dayjob, but I could see it as an > option.) That topic should end up in a new thread however (or even a > DM). > > sirjofri -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M3cce19283b50acc036e39c94 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
Thank you, Ibrahim, for your comments. I can see where my suggestions do not make sense. It is too difficult a challenge for the communities to envisage. If no one can envisage it, then no one can do it. Vic On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 12:52, ibrahim wrote: > On Monday, 13 May 2024, at 5:09 AM, Jacob Moody wrote: >> When people suggest tossing that all out for a minimally patched 4e, I think >> some people > rightfully feel a bit annoyed. That's a lot of baby that goes out with > that bathwater. > > It's Davids decission what he includes as patches for the 4th edition > but I would toss everything out of 9legacy which isn't part of the 4th > edition or contributed by the team members at Bell Labs from their > archives as enhancements. > > The reasoning is simple : p9f owns the rights for the final release and > Nokia has made this release available under a MIT license. Every one > who uses plan9 not only to toy around or his/her personal use but also > as a system which he/she distributes like I do can't afford risks with > code integrated from sources like 9front. There are some libraries > taken from 9front derived from other open source projects like freetype > (truetype) where copyright notices are absent and this isn't the only > library where in code comments the sources are named but the original > copyright notices are absent. > > plan9 as represented by p9f has a clear license all parts which are not > MIT licensed are marked as such but code back ported from other forks > like 9front contain code where I have doubts if those are really under > an MIT license as you state in your documentation cause deriving from a > different license or taking large amounts of code doesn't remove viral > licenses like LGPL or GPL. > > It would be in the interest of plan9 and all who professionally use it > in embedded systems or as a distributed operating system to keep > suspicious code out of the 9legacy CD. If really necessary to provide > such contributions or back ports I wouldn't place them in the system > folders but as it was in the past in contrib folders for additional > download. The risks to infect a clearly licensed system gifted by Nokia > to all of us to make best use of it for free commercial private > embedded ... solutions are to high and I would really prefer it when > nothing from forks like 9front would take its way into the 9legacy CD > ROM which is defined as : > > Plan 9 archives, reference releases of Plan 9. > > 9legacy, Plan 9 with many useful patches applied. Download > page has an > installation CD image including 386, amd64, and arm kernels > and binaries; > a bootable USB image for 386; a bootable SD card image for > Raspberry Pi; > and virtual disk images for QEMU and GCE. > > The 4th Edition distribution from Bell Labs: > live CD/install CD/USB image, installation notes, > browse the source, additional software > > I respect your fork 9front but I won't and can't use it. 9front isn't > plan9 from my perspective. Plan 9 is the final release with patches for > the files from sources I can be sure that those aren't taken from open > source projects by copy and paste. The moment I and others who use > plan9 for distribution or embed it on systems we have to be absolutely > sure about the sources of the code. I can trust Bell Labs, Nokia, p9f > but I won't trust some guys who toy around with their fork of plan9. > The moment FSF or another organisation starts to suit me because they > recognized that some guy at any forked system has copy pasted code from > a viral licensed project I am the one who has to take the consequences. > > The first thing I am doing after downloading an iso from 9 legacy is to > remove all files which were not part of the final plan9 release. The > second thing I have always to do is removing all patches from the iso > which came from sources I can't be sure if they really followed > licensing rules. The third thing I have to do before distributing my > fork of plan9 is to remove fonts ghostscript diff page and other parts > of the system which would infect the distribution media to make sure > the created system is not depending on viral licensed code. > > My fork isn't the only one which gets distributed. I'm sure there exist > millions of devices with plan9 integrated without anyone noticing > except for those who look into the documentation where the MIT licensed > copyright is placed. > > If people from forks like 9front are talking about numbers of their > users I always have to laugh. My fork is right now used by about 500 > people per semester more users. And be assured this is an unimportant > number. > > Not a single developer who uses plan9 for distributed systems, > commercial products will dare to use a system like 9front as the > sources. The reason is quite simple : > > You ignore copyrights as you please and distributed 9front under an MIT > license long
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
The approach is effective in open source projects when there are leaders who excel in communication, provide a clear vision, and prioritize objectives. Its effectiveness diminishes in the absence of strong communication and planning. Clear expectations generally facilitate easier collaboration and sustained engagement. However, I am not referring to the 2% of individuals who engage only if it aligns with their own ideas. Prima donnas will act independently regardless, but for the majority who seek a constructive environment, like myself, establishing a structured system or model is beneficial. Competence levels vary within the community, and any system necessitates knowledge transfer. This can be achieved through mentorship or onboarding sponsorship programs. The onboarding process involves several stages: 1. Not knowing what you don't know, where clear direction is essential. 2. Knowing that you don't know, where coaching is necessary. 3. Knowing and performing tasks with conscious effort, where occasional correction may be required. 4. Performing tasks instinctively, where little to no correction is needed. There seems to be an implicit expectation that contributors should be at stage four, but many in the 9fans community may not yet be at this level. While I'm not an expert, my initial experiences with Plan 9 were enriched by several mentors who were willing to guide me and others; but in today's environment that might be a big ask, so you might be right. Vic On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 10:32, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: > I don't think this approach has ever worked in > the open source world -- it always starts with > someone building something useful. The vision > and goal is defined by the work being done. > > After something useful is built, people start > to join in and contribute. > > After enough people join in, it makes sense to > have more organization. > > Quoth vester.thac...@fastmail.fm: >> The complexity of communication in this medium often necessitates detailed >> discussions. You highlighted the need for additional personnel to manage >> the workload (e.g. do the work). From my perspective, this requires a >> well-defined vision, clear objectives, and a prioritized list of >> deliverables to align efforts effectively. Currently, it seems the role of >> product managers is collectively held, though it's unclear who exactly is >> responsible. Typically, a team of two or more individuals would focus on >> these deliverables. In past projects, I've seen the use of a project board >> to keep everyone updated on tasks—an approach known as "information >> radiator" in project management. I'm open to other methods if you had >> something different in mind that I may have overlooked. If you are >> considering a meritocracy, I would recommend caution. Experience has shown >> that what we truly need is increased collaboration and unity, rather than a >> system that could potentially encourage competition and division. I >> apologize if my message is obtuse, I am trying to keep this message concise, >> I can expound more for clarity. I hope my explanation helps. >> >> Vic >> >> >> On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 03:36, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: >> > that's not what I said. >> > >> > Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: >> >> I agree that having a clear vision and charter is essential before >> >> forming a team. Regarding building an inclusive Plan 9 community that >> >> encompasses multiple groups, it's important to establish common goals and >> >> values that resonate with all members. What are your thoughts on creating >> >> open channels for dialogue and collaboration? How can we ensure that >> >> everyone feels valued and heard? This approach could foster a more >> >> cooperative and inclusive environment. >> >> >> >> Vic >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 16:19, pl...@room3420.net wrote: >> >> > "tl;dr: you need people doing the work before you can try >> >> > to organize them; the way to get people doing the work is >> >> > to bootstrap it by doing work and showing value." [from Ori]. >> >> > or >> >> > "Don't be the kid who can't play [whatever]ball but wants to teach >> >> > everybody and be the team coach, just because he read a book." -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-Mee6775a4b239f8cd0dc57264 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
My understanding is that the initial request came from a 9legacy member to the 9front community, and the responses were quite intriguing. It has led me to ponder how we might bridge the gap between these communities. There seems to be conflict on both sides, and for some reason, I hold 9front to higher standards—perhaps because of our more idealistic roots. The core mission of 9front was always to advance the Plan 9 tradition, but not at the cost of alienating others. >From what I observe, there seem to be only a handful of active developers >remaining in each group. Initially, I believed we had around 30 active >developers in 9front and about 7 in 9legacy, but I now think I may have >overestimated these numbers. It appears that many are staying on the >sidelines, possibly due to past grievances, which could explain the responses >I've seen. The developers who are active might be overextended, while those >who are less active might feel marginalized. Vic On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 22:23, q...@nopenopenope.net wrote: > On Sun May 12 14:43:17 +0200 2024, vester.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote: >> I don't mind the ad hominem attacks. I just hope things improve. I do find >> it ironic that I'm addressing the 9front community about collaboration and >> inclusiveness when I recall those as being two reasons for the inception of >> 9front. >> >> Vic > > You hit the nail on the head there. Why *are* you addressing just the > 9front community or assuming there is no willingness to collaborate on > its part? 9legacy users so far have expressed interest in someone > else porting dp9ik (David for instance) or demanded explanations about > DES cracking (Richard) or asked for others to port or fix fossil on > 9front (Lucio), but who explicitely said that they would like to put > in some work themselves and collaborate with 9front people? Maybe I'm > beginning to misremember the rest of the thread, am I missing > anything? Could you point to *specific examples*? > > 9front users demand code because they've already put in a lot of work > and it has been often ignored or dismissed, and because it would be up > to them to backport it to 9legacy -- why would they do double duty for > a system they don't use and a community which is generally not > receptive to their work? Also, do you realize that 9front right now > has upwards of 10500 changes in the repository, after 13 years? > Bringing 9legacy up to date as you've proposed would require a > colossal amount of work, all just to obtain... 9front. Do you > believe it has diverged to the point where backporting hardware > support, fixing bugs and broken or incomplete implementations and so > on will result in anything other than what 9front already is? > > You yourself demand everyone, especially the 9front community, to make > suggestions, start projects, etc. What about you? What do you > suggest to do and which projects would you take part in? That's what > "just send the code" implies. Promises don't fix bugs or help > implement programs, nor help fix this one-sided conversation. > > I'm asking these questions yet I fear that they will meet radio > silence or more empty walls of text, as it happens too often here > when asking "why" or how it came to this. I hope I'm wrong. > > Thanks, > qwx > > PS: I was about to hit send when I received Richard's mail. > Richard, thank you for the constructive and detailed response. > I hope this marks a turn of the tide. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M1a00fb7eb0c7bb27d1f4d4d9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
I'm stepping back to listen. Perhaps you're not a software engineer. It is good to discuss before starting. Vic On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 22:11, hiro wrote: > why step back. step forward and put your money where your mouth is. > > On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 2:42 PM wrote: >> >> Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I want to clarify that my intention is >> not to exert control or disrupt, but to foster better collaboration between >> communities. I understand that there may be concerns about redundancy and >> approaches, which is why I believe a dialogue about our common goals and how >> best to achieve them is crucial. I do not see much collaboration between >> 9legacy and 9front. From what I gather from this thread, it seems that one >> community wants to lord over another and not be helpful. At least this is >> how it appears to a hobbyist like me. It would be nice if things were more >> cordial and helpful. >> >> I am assuming everyone here is a hobbyist, so I speak as a hobbyist. It’s >> important to recognize that our shared interest in advancing the Plan 9 >> community is at the heart of these discussions. I am here not for personal >> gain but to contribute positively. I think we all bring valuable >> perspectives that, when combined, can lead to innovative solutions that >> benefit everyone involved. >> >> Let’s focus on how we can work together more effectively. I am open to >> suggestions and willing to step back where needed to allow for a more >> collective approach. I believe that through constructive dialogue and a >> shared commitment to our community’s goals, we can overcome >> misunderstandings and move forward together. >> >> I don't mind the ad hominem attacks. I just hope things improve. I do find >> it ironic that I'm addressing the 9front community about collaboration and >> inclusiveness when I recall those as being two reasons for the inception of >> 9front. >> >> Vic >> >> >> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 21:18, pl...@room3420.net wrote: >> > The collaboration is already here. You try to create tools that already >> > exist. I'd like to pinpoint why you have this unbelievable need for >> > control and wonder if you're not just working for Microsoft, Google or >> > the guy who stole Freenode and just try to disrupt the plan9 community. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M3bd18cdbea206712408fc2e4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
I agree that having a clear vision and charter is essential before forming a team. Regarding building an inclusive Plan 9 community that encompasses multiple groups, it's important to establish common goals and values that resonate with all members. What are your thoughts on creating open channels for dialogue and collaboration? How can we ensure that everyone feels valued and heard? This approach could foster a more cooperative and inclusive environment. Vic On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 16:19, pl...@room3420.net wrote: > "tl;dr: you need people doing the work before you can try > to organize them; the way to get people doing the work is > to bootstrap it by doing work and showing value." [from Ori]. > or > "Don't be the kid who can't play [whatever]ball but wants to teach > everybody and be the team coach, just because he read a book." -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M9e2163e0d5b11f835cf9b2b2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
Thanks Jacob for catching the mistake. Vic On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 16:12, Jacob Moody wrote: > You just sent to this to just me, not the list. Shame not everyone > could see this LLM drivel :( > > On 5/12/24 00:46, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote: >> I've noticed the growing divide within our community, and I believe it's >> crucial for us to strive for an inclusive environment that transcends any >> "us versus them" mentality. A shared vision and values are essential for >> guiding our direction and efforts within the Plan 9 community. Let's focus >> on bridging this gap and fostering a space where collaboration and unity not >> only exist but thrive. >> >> It is important to acknowledge that adopting a "my way or the highway" >> attitude serves no positive purpose for the Plan 9 community. Moving >> towards less polarization will enhance our capacity to welcome and encourage >> diverse contributions, making our community stronger and more innovative. >> >> I want to express my gratitude to everyone who has shown a commitment to >> improving collaboration. True collaboration requires effort from all sides, >> and I am hopeful that both 9front and 9legacy can reap equal benefits from >> our collective endeavors. Let’s work together to build a community we are >> all proud to be part of. >> >> Vic >> >> >> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 11:55, Jacob Moody wrote: >>> I've gone ahead and made a repository[0] for an up to >>> date fossil* for 9front. I didn't have to do more then >>> clone the 4e repository, apply the 9legacy patches and >>> type mk. Took all of 10 minutes. Testing is left as >>> an exercise for the reader. >>> >>> * No warranty given or implied. >>> [0] http://only9fans.com/moody/fossil/HEAD/info.html >>> >>> On 5/11/24 19:43, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: As far as I can tell, 9front doesn't have a problem on this side; we just imported the Power64 compilers, have working versions of risc64, etc, all pulled in from the 9legacy world. The work to port usually ranges between negligible and trivial. As far as I can tell, the only thing preventing 9front changes from making their way back to 9legacy is a lack of hands to do the work. And while I'm happy to lend a hand, help debug, and even make trivial changes to enhance portability, I personally don't care to spend time porting software to a system I don't intend to use. tl;dr: you need people doing the work before you can try to organize them; the way to get people doing the work is to bootstrap it by doing work and showing value. Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > Perhaps adopting this mindset could be beneficial. When developing a > feature, it's worth considering its potential for portability and > usefulness to other communities. > > Vic > > On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 07:27, hiro wrote: >> just send the code then >> >> On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 12:22 AM wrote: >>> >>> Let me explain my intent and elaborate on my point of view. I started >>> a new thread to enhance the signal-to-noise ratio. It's easy for a >>> thread to become cluttered with multiple issues, so I believe creating >>> separate threads for distinct concerns helps streamline communication >>> and keeps discussions focused. >>> >>> As a hobbyist, I see we all share a passion for Plan 9 and its >>> development. Enhancing collaboration between communities would benefit >>> everyone involved, and potentially enhance decorum on 9fans. I am >>> curious to gauge whether there is any interest in activities that could >>> facilitate positive teamwork, foster stronger connections, and break >>> down barriers between communities. >>> >>> Fostering discord among communities seems to only perpetuate more >>> discord. In my mind, seeking to improve collaboration between >>> communities seemed, and still seems, worthwhile. >>> >>> As a hobbyist, I find myself pondering: What motivates individuals to >>> participate in 9fans if not for a genuine interest in supporting the >>> Plan 9 community? >>> >>> Vic >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 01:26, hiro wrote: congrats for teaching the bot to create more email threads with new subjects. just what we need as a community. On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 4:55 PM Lucio De Re wrote: > > I guess we're on the same page, right up and including the fist > fight(s). But I think we are all entitled to be treated more > courteously in a public forum such as this, including not ascribing > malice unless it is explicit. Being touchy has plagued this forum > just about forever, it would be nicer if instead of calling out bad > behaviour, it got the benefit of the doubt. I
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
Perhaps adopting this mindset could be beneficial. When developing a feature, it's worth considering its potential for portability and usefulness to other communities. Vic On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 07:27, hiro wrote: > just send the code then > > On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 12:22 AM wrote: >> >> Let me explain my intent and elaborate on my point of view. I started a new >> thread to enhance the signal-to-noise ratio. It's easy for a thread to >> become cluttered with multiple issues, so I believe creating separate >> threads for distinct concerns helps streamline communication and keeps >> discussions focused. >> >> As a hobbyist, I see we all share a passion for Plan 9 and its development. >> Enhancing collaboration between communities would benefit everyone involved, >> and potentially enhance decorum on 9fans. I am curious to gauge whether >> there is any interest in activities that could facilitate positive teamwork, >> foster stronger connections, and break down barriers between communities. >> >> Fostering discord among communities seems to only perpetuate more discord. >> In my mind, seeking to improve collaboration between communities seemed, and >> still seems, worthwhile. >> >> As a hobbyist, I find myself pondering: What motivates individuals to >> participate in 9fans if not for a genuine interest in supporting the Plan 9 >> community? >> >> Vic >> >> >> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 01:26, hiro wrote: >> > congrats for teaching the bot to create more email threads with new >> > subjects. just what we need as a community. >> > >> > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 4:55 PM Lucio De Re wrote: >> >> >> >> I guess we're on the same page, right up and including the fist fight(s). >> >> But I think we are all entitled to be treated more courteously in a >> >> public forum such as this, including not ascribing malice unless it is >> >> explicit. Being touchy has plagued this forum just about forever, it >> >> would be nicer if instead of calling out bad behaviour, it got the >> >> benefit of the doubt. I accept that I was as guilty of that presumption >> >> as much as anyone who posted after me. >> >> >> >> Lucio. >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 3:39 PM wrote: >> >>> > >> >>> > What I notice - correct me if I am mistaken - is that any comparison >> >>> > between 9front and 9legacy seems to needle a few members (very few, >> >>> > there are many names from that community that have not participated, >> >>> > specifically the ones I know hand have long respectes, ask them) of >> >>> > the 9front community that seem to take offence unless 9front is >> >>> > painted in a better light. I guess that's permissible, but please mind >> >>> > your manners if you choose to go that route, this is 9fans and 9front >> >>> > I believe has its own discussion groups. >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> I offer you the perspective that this happens by rule when obviously >> >>> wrong >> >>> or ridicolous claims or demands about / of 9front are made. >> >>> This is seen to further degrade the already quite degraded perspective >> >>> it has within parts of the 9fans community. >> >>> >> >>> I don't think it is unreasonable for people who have invested a lot of >> >>> effort >> >>> into 9front and believe it to be something worthwhile to feel the >> >>> urgency to >> >>> defend it, or at the very least talk about it. >> >>> >> >>> I do think a bit more courtesy or less bad faith assumptions could >> >>> be prescribed to certain individuals, and not only on the 9front side. >> >>> >> >>> Anyway, I propose such issues are best solved by a fist fight, therefore >> >>> acknowledging the legacy of dispute resolution methods of our ancestors >> >>> and >> >>> fostering a more resilient and vibrant community that thrives on both >> >>> change >> >>> and tradition. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Lucio De Re >> >> 2 Piet Retief St >> >> Kestell (Eastern Free State) >> >> 9860 South Africa >> >> >> >> Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 >> >> Cell: +27 83 251 5824 >> >> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options >> >> Permalink -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M85b60529f8d0c8789138465a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
Let me explain my intent and elaborate on my point of view. I started a new thread to enhance the signal-to-noise ratio. It's easy for a thread to become cluttered with multiple issues, so I believe creating separate threads for distinct concerns helps streamline communication and keeps discussions focused. As a hobbyist, I see we all share a passion for Plan 9 and its development. Enhancing collaboration between communities would benefit everyone involved, and potentially enhance decorum on 9fans. I am curious to gauge whether there is any interest in activities that could facilitate positive teamwork, foster stronger connections, and break down barriers between communities. Fostering discord among communities seems to only perpetuate more discord. In my mind, seeking to improve collaboration between communities seemed, and still seems, worthwhile. As a hobbyist, I find myself pondering: What motivates individuals to participate in 9fans if not for a genuine interest in supporting the Plan 9 community? Vic On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 01:26, hiro wrote: > congrats for teaching the bot to create more email threads with new > subjects. just what we need as a community. > > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 4:55 PM Lucio De Re wrote: >> >> I guess we're on the same page, right up and including the fist fight(s). >> But I think we are all entitled to be treated more courteously in a public >> forum such as this, including not ascribing malice unless it is explicit. >> Being touchy has plagued this forum just about forever, it would be nicer if >> instead of calling out bad behaviour, it got the benefit of the doubt. I >> accept that I was as guilty of that presumption as much as anyone who posted >> after me. >> >> Lucio. >> >> On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 3:39 PM wrote: >>> > >>> > What I notice - correct me if I am mistaken - is that any comparison >>> > between 9front and 9legacy seems to needle a few members (very few, there >>> > are many names from that community that have not participated, >>> > specifically the ones I know hand have long respectes, ask them) of the >>> > 9front community that seem to take offence unless 9front is painted in a >>> > better light. I guess that's permissible, but please mind your manners if >>> > you choose to go that route, this is 9fans and 9front I believe has its >>> > own discussion groups. >>> > >>> >>> I offer you the perspective that this happens by rule when obviously wrong >>> or ridicolous claims or demands about / of 9front are made. >>> This is seen to further degrade the already quite degraded perspective >>> it has within parts of the 9fans community. >>> >>> I don't think it is unreasonable for people who have invested a lot of >>> effort >>> into 9front and believe it to be something worthwhile to feel the urgency to >>> defend it, or at the very least talk about it. >>> >>> I do think a bit more courtesy or less bad faith assumptions could >>> be prescribed to certain individuals, and not only on the 9front side. >>> >>> Anyway, I propose such issues are best solved by a fist fight, therefore >>> acknowledging the legacy of dispute resolution methods of our ancestors and >>> fostering a more resilient and vibrant community that thrives on both change >>> and tradition. >> >> >> >> -- >> Lucio De Re >> 2 Piet Retief St >> Kestell (Eastern Free State) >> 9860 South Africa >> >> Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 >> Cell: +27 83 251 5824 >> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M526c8c293297541ee0ff6c0d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
Thanks! I’ve been practicing my impersonation. Want to hear my human impression next? The goal of writing is to articulate ideas in a clear and comprehensive manner. If I were unclear, I apologize. I realize that reading a lengthy post can be a bit demanding on your time. Thank you for your patience. I'll make an effort to keep my posts shorter and to the point. I could have written it in the following way, but it seemed less expressive. "Plan 9 4th Edition serves as a stable snapshot in time, while 9legacy is an active distribution, and 9front has evolved significantly, bringing modern advancements. Living in Japan, where older computers are affordable, I appreciate maintaining support for these versions. Accessible older systems allow hobbyists like me to enjoy tinkering without the need for the latest technology. Updating and maintaining compatibility among Plan 9 4th Edition, 9legacy, and 9front offers several benefits. It broadens hardware support, allowing users with older setups to benefit from new improvements. Incremental upgrades help those preferring gradual changes to seamlessly integrate new features. Such updates enhance community engagement, preserve the educational value, ensure system security and stability, and accommodate customization for unique setups. By updating all versions, we honor Plan 9's legacy while keeping it relevant and accessible, fostering a community that values both innovation and tradition. This approach supports diverse user needs and promotes a vibrant, inclusive community." I'm exploring whether there's interest in more collaboration. It would be beneficial to focus on critiquing ideas rather than individuals. Kind regards, Vester "Vic" Thacker On Fri, May 10, 2024, at 16:33, Lallero wrote: > Is it just me noticing this is chatgpt? > > Il 10 maggio 2024 06:44:48 CEST, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm ha scritto: >>Hi Hiro et al, >> >>I view Plan 9 4th Edition as a version that remains largely unchanged, >>serving as a snapshot in time, while 9legacy represents an active, distinct >>distribution. Conversely, 9front is a fork that has evolved significantly >>from Plan 9 4th Edition, making considerable advancements in recent years. >> >>I appreciate the push for modernization with 9front, but I also see value in >>maintaining support for older versions like Plan 9 4th Edition and 9legacy. >>Living in Japan, I have access to inexpensive hardware—local computer >>resellers often offer older computers for as little as 2,000 yen each (e.g. >>$12.85 USD). For about 8,000 yen, it is possible to set up a functional Plan >>9 system. This isn’t about leading the charge with the latest and greatest >>OS; it's about the joy of tinkering and making the most of accessible >>resources. For hobbyists like myself, the ability to use and experiment with >>older systems is invaluable. Maintaining some level of support or >>compatibility in the community can enhance the inclusiveness and experimental >>spirit that is fundamental to Plan 9’s ethos. >> >>Maintaining updates and compatibility between Plan 9 4th Edition, 9legacy, >>and 9front can provide several benefits, especially in a diverse community >>like that of Plan 9. Here are some of the key advantages: >> >>(1) Broader Hardware Support: By keeping Plan 9 4th Edition and 9legacy >>updated, users who rely on older or less common hardware configurations that >>may not be fully supported by 9front can still benefit from updates and >>improvements. This is particularly useful in academic or hobbyist settings >>where newer hardware may not be readily available or economically feasible. >> >>(2) Incremental Upgrades: Some users may prefer an incremental approach to >>system upgrades rather than a complete switch to a newer version. Integrating >>changes from 9front into 9legacy and Plan 9 4th Edition allows these users to >>benefit from specific enhancements without the need to overhaul their entire >>system setup. >> >>(3) Community Engagement: Keeping these versions updated helps engage >>different segments of the Plan 9 community. It acknowledges the needs and >>preferences of those who might prefer the familiarity of 9legacy or Plan 9 >>4th Edition, fostering a more inclusive and vibrant community. >> >>(4) Preservation of Educational and Historical Value: Plan 9 has significant >>educational and historical importance in the field of operating systems. >>Maintaining and updating older versions ensures that this legacy is >>preserved, allowing new generations of students and enthusiasts to learn from >>and experiment with these systems. >> >>
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
Hi Hiro et al, I view Plan 9 4th Edition as a version that remains largely unchanged, serving as a snapshot in time, while 9legacy represents an active, distinct distribution. Conversely, 9front is a fork that has evolved significantly from Plan 9 4th Edition, making considerable advancements in recent years. I appreciate the push for modernization with 9front, but I also see value in maintaining support for older versions like Plan 9 4th Edition and 9legacy. Living in Japan, I have access to inexpensive hardware—local computer resellers often offer older computers for as little as 2,000 yen each (e.g. $12.85 USD). For about 8,000 yen, it is possible to set up a functional Plan 9 system. This isn’t about leading the charge with the latest and greatest OS; it's about the joy of tinkering and making the most of accessible resources. For hobbyists like myself, the ability to use and experiment with older systems is invaluable. Maintaining some level of support or compatibility in the community can enhance the inclusiveness and experimental spirit that is fundamental to Plan 9’s ethos. Maintaining updates and compatibility between Plan 9 4th Edition, 9legacy, and 9front can provide several benefits, especially in a diverse community like that of Plan 9. Here are some of the key advantages: (1) Broader Hardware Support: By keeping Plan 9 4th Edition and 9legacy updated, users who rely on older or less common hardware configurations that may not be fully supported by 9front can still benefit from updates and improvements. This is particularly useful in academic or hobbyist settings where newer hardware may not be readily available or economically feasible. (2) Incremental Upgrades: Some users may prefer an incremental approach to system upgrades rather than a complete switch to a newer version. Integrating changes from 9front into 9legacy and Plan 9 4th Edition allows these users to benefit from specific enhancements without the need to overhaul their entire system setup. (3) Community Engagement: Keeping these versions updated helps engage different segments of the Plan 9 community. It acknowledges the needs and preferences of those who might prefer the familiarity of 9legacy or Plan 9 4th Edition, fostering a more inclusive and vibrant community. (4) Preservation of Educational and Historical Value: Plan 9 has significant educational and historical importance in the field of operating systems. Maintaining and updating older versions ensures that this legacy is preserved, allowing new generations of students and enthusiasts to learn from and experiment with these systems. (5) Security and Stability: Regular updates can address security vulnerabilities and fix bugs across all versions, ensuring that even older deployments remain secure and stable. This is crucial for maintaining the integrity and usability of the systems over time. (6) Customization: Some users or organizations might have customized their systems based on older versions of Plan 9. Keeping these systems updated with changes from 9front can provide a path for these custom setups to receive new features and improvements while maintaining their unique configurations. Overall, the integration of updates across different versions of Plan 9 can help keep the system modern, secure, and accessible to a wide range of users, enhancing both its utility and appeal. In embracing both the new and preserving the old, we not only honor the rich legacy of Plan 9 but also ensure its relevance and accessibility for all users, regardless of their hardware or specific needs. By updating 9legacy and Plan 9 4th Edition alongside 9front, we foster a community that values progress and innovation while respecting and supporting the diverse ways in which people interact with our beloved operating system. Together, let's continue to build a welcoming and vibrant Plan 9 community that thrives on both change and tradition. Kind regards, Vester "Vic" Thacker On Fri, May 10, 2024, at 04:50, hiro wrote: > no clue which conflict you're seeing, vic. > > there's been some trolling back and forth since forever, there's been > complaints and contributions, and more complaints about the > contributions and the lack of contributions. as it should be. we can > have one united community if you like but then i hope we still have > those complaints. if no issues come up it just means that nobody used > the system. > > personally i think non-dp9ik protocols should be removed completely or > at the very least only allowed with very big fat warning messages. if > 9legacy still doesn't have dp9ik, then why don't you just let 9legacy > die? is there a single 9legacy-only improvement that's worth having in > the first place? why does this discussion here even exist? if you want > interoperability between things just upgrade everything to 9front. > there's no mor
Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
Hi Hiro et al, This mailing list is focused on Plan 9 discussions. Noticing conflicts between the 9legacy and 9front communities indicates that adopting collaborative strategies could be advantageous. In my detailed post, I aimed to provide a comprehensive overview to fully encapsulate the topic. Having observed conflicts evolve over more than two decades, I am motivated to suggest improvements rather than seeing history repeat itself. I contributed my comments in hopes of fostering meaningful positive change. I value both 9front and 9legacy but choose to remain neutral and refrain from taking sides. In my view, there's no advantage in picking sides, particularly among us 9fans. The need for collaboration seems great, I'm astonished that more collaboration hasn't happened over the years. Kind regards, Vester On Thu, May 9, 2024, at 05:10, hiro wrote: > vester, why do you recommend all these things so overly > methodologically that are all already a reality in the 9front > community? are you a bot? > > On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 9:18 PM wrote: >> >> Dear Members of the 9legacy and 9front Communities, >> >> This message is intended to share thoughts on potential improvements to >> collaborative processes between systems. The aim is to foster an environment >> that encourages ongoing enhancement and mutual support. >> >> Community Efforts >> Appreciation is extended to all community members for their dedication in >> updating and maintaining these systems. Their efforts are vital to >> collective progress. >> >> Community Dialogue >> An open forum for all members to share insights, discuss challenges, and >> propose solutions related to system updates and integration efforts could >> prove beneficial. Such dialogue can help better understand different >> perspectives and formulate effective strategies collaboratively. >> >> Collaborative Working Group >> The creation of a working group to address specific technical challenges, >> such as integrating the dp9ik security protocol, could facilitate smoother >> and more efficient integration. Interested members might consider >> participating in such a group. >> >> Transparency in Decision-Making >> Improving the transparency of decision-making processes is a goal. Sharing >> regular informational updates could keep everyone informed about the >> progress and decisions that affect both communities. >> >> Inclusive Decision-Making Processes >> Exploring ways to ensure that decision-making processes reflect the >> community's needs and inputs is under consideration. Contributions on how to >> achieve this are highly valued. >> >> Recognition Program >> Recognizing the hard work and achievements of community members is >> important. Plans to introduce a recognition program that highlights >> significant contributions and successes are being explored. >> >> Addressing Historical Concerns >> Dedicating time to openly discuss historical concerns is crucial for moving >> forward. This could help reconcile and strengthen community ties. >> >> Feedback on these suggestions and potential interest in participating in >> these initiatives is invited. Contributions from community members are >> invaluable and will help shape the direction of collaborative efforts. >> >> Thank you for your engagement and commitment to the community. >> >> Best regards, >> Vester >> >> >> On Thu, May 9, 2024, at 01:29, Jacob Moody wrote: >> > On 5/8/24 11:06, Lucio De Re wrote: >> >> There is much I would like to explain, but the problem I am attempting to >> >> solve ought to have an obvious answer that I am clearly missing. >> >> >> >> I can't seem to get a 9front workstation to mount a networked 9legacy >> >> fossil service. The FS is a fairly pristine 9legacy installation, on a >> >> somewhat old 386 platform. I did need to tweak various parameters on both >> >> side, but eventually I got to the point where both hosts declare that the >> >> connection has been established; now on the 9front workstation I get the >> >> message >> >> "srv net!192.96.33.148!9fs: mount failed: fossil authCheck: auth >> >> protocol not finished" >> >> I suspect the culprit is the lack of the newer "dp9ik" security on >> >> 9legacy, in which case it would be helpful to know how to work around >> >> that. >> > >> > Probably. Why not just temporarily disable auth checks for the fossil >> > 9legacy machine? >> > Or perhaps just take a disk/mkfs backup and tar that. You really have >> > chosen the most painful way of accomplishing this (which you seem to >> > acknowledge). >> > Or just exportfs the root? There are so many ways of just getting the >> > files. >> > >> >> >> >> Why am I mixing my platforms like this? Because the hardware on which I >> >> am attempting to recover a rather large historical file system is split >> >> between IDE and SATA and I have no hardware that can handle both disk >> >> modes and I need to move information between the two media
Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team
I would like to extend my gratitude to everyone who took the time to provide their valuable feedback. I fully acknowledge that there appears to be limited interest in the proposal. Your time and assistance are greatly appreciated. --vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5bdb5197344e4e7f-M23fb6f7631033b0dc6dbacc0 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
I would like to extend my gratitude to everyone who took the time to provide their valuable feedback. I fully acknowledge that there appears to be limited interest in the proposal. Your time and assistance are greatly appreciated. --vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M000ba1713dafef74c807debc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team
When looking at the FreeBSD project, the introduction of a Plan 9 Core Team can offer several benefits: 1. *Centralized Technical Leadership*: A Core Team can provide clear technical leadership and direction for the project. This ensures that development efforts are coordinated, focused, and aligned with the project's goals. 2. *Consistency and Stability*: With a dedicated Core Team, there is a better chance of maintaining consistency and stability in the development process. This can lead to more reliable and predictable updates. 3. *Efficient Decision-Making*: The Core Team can streamline decision-making processes, especially for critical technical decisions. This can help avoid delays and conflicts that might arise in a more decentralized development model. 4. *Attracting Contributors*: Having a well-defined leadership structure can make the project more attractive to potential contributors, as they can see a clear path for their contributions and how they can impact the project's direction. 5. *Community Cohesion*: A Core Team can act as a unifying force within the community, bringing together contributors from various Plan 9 distributions and projects. It fosters collaboration and cooperation. 6. *Long-Term Sustainability*: By focusing on technical governance, a Core Team can help ensure the long-term sustainability of the project, making it less reliant on the efforts of a single individual or a small group. 7. *Representation*: The Core Team can include representatives from different Plan 9 distributions, ensuring that various voices and perspectives are considered in the decision-making process. 8. *Resource Allocation*: The Core Team can allocate resources more efficiently, directing efforts towards areas that are most critical to the project's success. 9. *Enhanced Documentation*: With a centralized team, there's often a better opportunity to maintain and improve project documentation, making it easier for newcomers to understand and contribute to the project. 10. *Fostering Innovation*: A Core Team can actively promote innovation and new features, driving the evolution of the Plan 9 operating system in a direction that aligns with the community's needs and goals. --vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T8d272411830cebfc-M6305b7aa57484a81be44e369 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team
Is there interest in establishing a dedicated Plan 9 Core Team to spearhead its technical development? When we look at other communities like FreeBSD, they have both a foundation and a core team, with the latter overseeing the technical aspects of the project. If this idea resonates with you, then the idea of selecting members for the Plan 9 Core Team is worth considering. It's important to note that the Plan 9 ecosystem consists of multiple distributions. It's possible that the technical leaders of these projects might be willing to step up and contribute their expertise to the Plan 9 Core Team, offering valuable guidance and facilitating the development of a new mainline. The Core Team's responsibilities would include making the tough decisions required to chart the future course of Plan 9. What are your thoughts on this proposal? --vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T8d272411830cebfc-M1cd4fdf08865e0eeb765c470 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
Since the Plan 9 Foundation doesn't focus on technical aspects, Would the formation of a Plan 9 Core Team be the next logical step? My understanding is the core team would decide technical direction and implementation. What are your thoughts? --vic On Fri, Jan 26, 2024, at 11:31, Don A. Bailey wrote: > I don’t think you realize that you have your entire emotional > perception of this situation flipped. > > This was a simple comment on why I strongly disagreed with VT’s request > for a 5th Release. I explained myself. I did not get emotional, nor am > I emotional now. What I did receive is a lot of strange emotional > responses for which I have neither time nor interest. And frankly, > neither should anyone here. > > Who cares if I like 9front? I’m not against it, nor the developers. I’m > simply against *joining* 9front with 9legacy/etc as a formal release. I > personally believe that’s a bad move. > > Don’t agree? Ok, so what? I’m one dude. And yet the gaggle of you > people have tried to drag me down some psychoanalytical rabbit hole, > and waste my entire day. And because I won’t let you drag me into it, > and because I respond with short unemotional statements, you somehow > think *I’m* the bad guy because I won’t devolve into your world. > > Geez guys seriously… go touch grass and have a life. Know what I did > today instead of engaging with your bullshit? I did my job. I played > with my son. I cooked us an amazing dinner. We built a fort. We looked > at deer outside. We listened to music. > > All that because I didn’t waste my time with long bullshit responses > that wouldn’t satisfy you, anyway, because I disagree with 9front being > merged. Who cares? > > Live your life, man. > > > >> On Jan 25, 2024, at 9:18 PM, Michael Misch >> wrote: >> >> How you react to being told that you are behaving poorly, and it’s neither >> appreciated or respected, speaks volumes. It’s telling, as you say, that >> your take is to get defensive and, honestly, shitty. Emotional maturity may >> be lacking in general on the list but please do not posture from some >> imagined moral high ground. It’s so tiring, just do better. >> >>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 15:38, Don A. Bailey wrote: >>> >>> It’s telling that you see a difference of opinion as a temper tantrum. A >>> major problem with people’s perspective of 9front and the current plan 9 >>> community, honestly. >>> >>> >>> > On Jan 25, 2024, at 6:35 PM, Jacob Moody wrote: On 1/25/24 16:03, Don A. Bailey wrote: > I’m aware you’re a member of the foundation. > > What I want I think I’ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal > release of Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do > not want 9front merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term “mainline” > (9legacy / 9pio updated patch sets). I’d rather 9front stay its own > thing. I’m certain there are a lot of relevant contributions within > 9front but I think its place is as its own niche system. > Who is going to do the work? Do you want to do the work? Do you think this temper tantrum you've been throwing on this list all day is somehow going to convince anyone else to work with/for you? It's rich that you feel like you can dictate rules (no 9front code) but have no interest in making any effort yourself to make that a reality. I await your "better" plan 9. - moody -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M1ea21d1695abbd3dbe10392a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
Thank you for your valuable insight. I appreciate being corrected when wrong. The purpose of my query regarding the development of a vision for Plan 9 is to deeply understand the collective aspirations and goals of our community. I firmly believe that aligning our collective efforts with a mutually recognized and understood vision is significantly more effective than proceeding without clear objectives. However, I must admit to feeling somewhat adrift, as I have yet to encounter specific discussions or documents that clearly outline such a vision. My intention is not to challenge or criticize but to seek clarity and insight. I am in the process of exploring and seeking to comprehend the community's vision to guide my contributions. However, it is challenging for me to engage effectively in a community when there's no unified vision to align with. Efforts expended in vain are seldom appreciated by anyone. Thank you. -vic On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 13:26, Noam Preil wrote: > I wasn't talking to you :P > > That was a response to the post that looked AI-generated. I sincerely > apologize if I accidentally responded to your post instead, but I don't > think I did -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mffbaee09149de3cc81f53e0d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
To clarify, my message represented a genuine exploration of the idea of envisioning a new release. --vic On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 10:01, Don Bailey wrote: > Breh. No. > > > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 7:45 PM wrote: > >> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly >> aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of >> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is >> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 >> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance >> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 >> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for >> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared >> passions and expertise. >> >> The Need for Modernization >> >> Technological Evolution: >> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last >> iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's >> essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest >> advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This >> evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in >> our modern tech toolkit. >> >> Security Enhancements: >> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a >> reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include >> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique >> work we do from emerging cyber risks. >> >> Hardware Compatibility: >> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. >> Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving >> its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, >> something we, as 9fans, have always embraced. >> >> Fostering Innovation >> >> Research and Education: >> Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has >> always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release >> would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for >> continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can >> achieve with Plan 9. >> >> Community Engagement: >> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an >> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a >> richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 >> Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new >> collaborations and innovations. >> >> Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential: >> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's >> capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, >> and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability >> and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. >> >> Practical Considerations >> >> Resource Allocation: >> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing >> Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective >> knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new >> partnerships or funding avenues. >> >> Backward Compatibility: >> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and >> ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while >> charting a course for its future. >> >> Documentation and Support: >> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new >> release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will >> aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we >> can all be proud of. >> >> Conclusion >> >> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s >> a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the >> vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards >> ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the >> modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of >> research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the >> knowledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of >> Plan 9 while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, >> shaping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story. >> >> >> Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. >> --vic >> >> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: >> > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: >> >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think >> that it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But >> it is more work than a recompile. >> >> >> >> Michael >> > >> > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and >> > linker working on >> > 9legacy is already not what I
Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared passions and expertise. The Need for Modernization Technological Evolution: We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern tech toolkit. Security Enhancements: In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work we do from emerging cyber risks. Hardware Compatibility: The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, something we, as 9fans, have always embraced. Fostering Innovation Research and Education: Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can achieve with Plan 9. Community Engagement: A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations and innovations. Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential: Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. Practical Considerations Resource Allocation: We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new partnerships or funding avenues. Backward Compatibility: Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while charting a course for its future. Documentation and Support: Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we can all be proud of. Conclusion The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story. Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. --vic On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think that it >> would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But it is >> more work than a recompile. >> >> Michael > > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and > linker working on > 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in > /sys/src/cmd/cc. > So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug > the compiler, the linker, and > the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll believe it when > I see it. > -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Md302c7e36ed5f10a57504bcd Delivery options:
Re: [9fans] PXE tftpload: file does not exist
Just a hunch, but perhaps you haven't added the cpu server kernel to /lib/tftpd to be loaded. -vic On Sat, Jul 22, 2023, at 15:21, Marco Feichtinger wrote: > The error was caused by a misconfigured ndb. > Thanks to Frank D. Engel Jr., which gave me the hint in a separat email. > > So I played around with my ndb files, and concluded,… that I don’t quit > understand how the ndb works. > Given following basic ndb configuration: > ; cat /lib/ndb/local > > # > # files comprising the database, use as many as you like, see ndb(6) > # > database= > file=/lib/ndb/local > file=/lib/ndb/common > > # > # because the public demands the name localsource > # > ip=127.0.0.1 sys=localhost dom=localhost > > # > # main network for home.csr.germteig.com > # > ipnet=main ip=10.0.0.0 ipmask=255.0.0.0 > ipsubmask=255.255.0.0 > > # > # server subnetwork > # > ipnet=srv ip=10.0.0.0 ipmask=255.255.0.0 > fs=fs.main.com > auth=auth.main.com > authdom=servers.main.com > > sys=auth > ip=10.0.0.3 ether= > dom=auth.main.com > > sys=cpu > ip=10.0.0.4 ether= > ip=10.0.0.5 ether= > dom=cpu.main.com > bootf=/386/9boot > > sys=fs > ip=10.0.0.10 ether= > ip=10.0.0.11 ether= > dom=fs.main.com > ; > > With that, the cpu server boots just fine. > It reads its config file under /cfg/pxe/ and loads the kernel. > > Now if I change the ip address of that cpu server to following: > sys=cpu > ip=10.0.1.4 ether= > ip=10.0.1.5 ether= > dom=cpu.main.com > bootf=/386/9boot > > Then I get the error "tftpload: file does not exist”. > But why? > > -marco > >> On 17.07.2023, at 22:25, Marco Feichtinger wrote: >> >> yes, ip/dhcpd and ip/tftpd are running on the file server >> >> -marco >> >>> On 17.07.2023, at 20:47, Steve Simon wrote: >>> >>> are you running the tftp server? >>> >>> On 17 Jul 2023, at 4:38 pm, Marco Feichtinger wrote: I have a standalone file server, and a separate standalone auth server. I tried to pxe boot a cpu server. It gets the /386/9boot to load fine, but then it seems, that it can’t retrieve the file /cfg/pxe/ from my file server. here is the screen output during bootup: 9boot gz…starting protected-mode loader at 0x900020 Plan 9 from Bell Labs PXE boot loader cpu0: 1800MHz GenuineIntel Atom (cpuid: AX 0x106CA DX 0xBFEBFBFF) ELCR: CC80 #l0: i82598: 10Gbps port 0XFE98 irq 11: #l0: i82598: 10Gbps port 0XFE98 irq 10: 498M memory: 498M kernel data, 0M user, 18M swap pxe on ether0 . (10.0.10.1!69): /cfg/pxe/ .T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.Ttftpread1st: failed to connect to server (10.0.10.1!69) failed. tftpload: file does not exist Which is strange, because I did create the file on my file server. It looks like following: bootfile=ether0!/386/9pccpuf nobootprompt=tcp readparts=1 mouseport=2 monitor=vesa vgasize=1024x768x8 user=bootes sysname= Does anyone know what might be the problem? Thanks. -marco -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T8484142ec51acbb7-Md540f99a0c436e51a04217a8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] discord invite link (was: sirjofri's Annual Christmas (and New-Year) Post)
Dr. Strangedev or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love GitHub --Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te12d98382a4fe46a-M18a9de63a8ad3379203148d8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] discord invite link (was: sirjofri's Annual Christmas (and New-Year) Post)
The community might consider using GitHub Discussions as a forum provider instead. https://docs.github.com/en/discussions/quickstart GitHub Discussions might help keep discussions focused on contributions. -- Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te12d98382a4fe46a-Mb738bcb9288071f52fc76d24 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] suggestion : new service targets for plan9
On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, at 11:03, ibrahim via 9fans wrote: > I developed a kiosk version of plan9 (based on 9front and legacy9) and > am about to develop a single user desktop system. Those can coexist > with the existing plan9 system. > > I named the new service targets kiosk and desktop. Both work without rio. [snip] Hmm. Have you considered using Inferno? - Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T2518f9e4fc10ed03-M540668e32b072efd37d6f13e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Who is in the Plan 9 foundation? Where can I follow them?
On Thu, Jan 20, 2022, at 23:23, hiro wrote: > maybe check the individual patches (as they have mentioned) The page reads, "Last update: 2022-01-18", and there are a large number of patches depicted. It seems 9legacy has been very active, http://9legacy.org/download/9legacychecksums.txt, and had a recent release. Tue Jan 18 11:08:03 GMT 2022 md5 fce568ed4a0d9829fc2d3a4dd8d1f068 sha1 66822382b92079d08400183bdd85a38d21ea7a73 9legacy-new.iso.bz2 I surmise that Plan 9 Foundation is supporting 9Legacy. However, I could be wrong and often am. -- Vester "Vic" Thacker -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T8169d36fb55bb5c5-M3fd0b29842f8f687cccb144d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
On Wed, Jan 19, 2022, at 03:54, Antonio Barrones wrote: [snip] >> I understand that Plan 9 is not being developed anymore, > It is not developed anymore in Bell Labs, but many of the original > developers are part of the Plan9 Foundation and they are promoting it > in different ways: https://plan9foundation.org/activities.html So I > would not say that it "is not being developed anymore". The Plan 9 Foundation activities page (https://plan9foundation.org/activities.html) states, "Preparing for a new release, including patches". Regards, Vester "Vic" Thacker -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M9e18f6ea28916a51bdd9a731 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Sorry, I'm late (Christmas, New Year)
On Tue, Jan 4, 2022, at 02:58, sirjofri wrote: [snip] > > As mentioned before I encourage you to share your personal highlights, > especially Plan 9 related ones. [Looking back] Some notable items in 2021 include, but are not limited to: - Significant progress of Zig (ziglang) development on Plan 9 - Advances in Harvey-OS development - Resurrection of the 'Tokyo Inferno / Plan 9 Users Group' on Plan 9 (Fourth Edition) - Plan 9 (Fourth Edition) documentation project in-flight [Looking forward] There is an upcoming Plan 9 related presentation on ZIG SHOWTIME (https://zig.show). Subject: Zig On Plan9 Presenter: G_W1 Date: Sunday, 9th of January, 2022 Time: 16:30 Z/UTC, 10:30am CST, 17:30pm CET, 22:00pm IST, 01:30am JST (Monday) -- Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T8425cdee7071f9dc-M836c7cfc4af2219ae3cdc98f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Boot CD chokes
On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, at 21:42, Lucio De Re wrote: [snip] > > Just my perspective. I'd like to hear how Vic sees this kind of cyber > archeology. Or anyone else's views, for that matter. I don't have much to say about cyber archeology. I am simply grateful to see Plan 9 (4th edition), 9front, 9legacy, and other distributions have an open-source license. There is comfort knowing we can modify and create. Best wishes for a prosperous and happy new year. Vester "Vic" Thacker -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5888591114a7cf34-M2f725dba508f6b7568a2d04e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Boot CD chokes
On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, at 20:55, hiro wrote: > what makes it enjoyable hardware? when is it classic? anything that's > older than 10y or what? I suppose classic could be any x86 based computer system that came out about the same time as Plan 9 fourth edition. Someone once referred to Plan 9 fourth edition as being classic, so I borrowed the notion. > it's surely fun to install plan9 on a hundred random computers and get > lucky and have everything work. but that's just not been my > experience. > > so instead i learned to be a little bit picky about the hardware > avoiding having to write drivers for everything that doesn't work. Having a used computer hardware store five minutes away which sells and buys old hardware makes the pain of trial and error less painful. If something does not work, just sell it back to the store. Intel desktop motherboards circa 2003 work very well. I recently purchased an Intel motherboard with CPU & CPU fan (1,000 yen), video card (1000 yen), a 400 Watt PSU (300 yen), a CD-ROM (300 yen), and 1.5 GB of RAM (300 yen). A 1,000 yen is approximately $8.69 USD for those reading this. Also, I purchased a complete, working Dell workstation (2003) for 1,000 yen that works well as a terminal. With hardware this inexpensive, my primary concern has been to ensure that I can back up and restore data. > just curious what kind of "classic" you're going for, i wasn't trying > to chastise you. IDE isn't *that* old either. we have other people > playing with pdp emulators. Yes, Dennis was kind enough to give me and another fellow working on the Simh emulator a copy of 8th Edition UNIX labeled TAPE. Good times. > in my experience with those expensive energy prices where i live the > only thing expensive would be if you keep a lot of PCs running at the > same time 24/7. In Kanagawa prefecture (Japan) where I live, energy prices are expensive during the day and slightly less expensive during the late evening hours. With three machines, firewall, and switch, running 24/7, the cost of electricity has been about 5,000 yen extra a month to run a Plan 9 system. There are many reasons why I find Plan 9 enjoyable. Every time someone asks, I seem to give yet another reason as to why. The cost of getting started, the return on investment, the challenge, the sense of accomplishment of writing a book with acme, helping others get their Plan 9 system up and running to name a few reasons. Also, I enjoy writing other Plan 9 users and asking for advice and coming away with the feeling of camaraderie between long-time Plan 9 users. I've met a lot of great people along the way. Many of my friends (Plan 9 users) have since passed away, but the memories of them remain. I suppose using Plan 9 reminds me of happier times when I use it. 明けましておめでとうございます。 Happy New Year, Vester "Vic" Thacker -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5888591114a7cf34-M74996ee2514e451da2ad37fb Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Boot CD chokes
On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, at 03:01, hiro wrote: > let's not pretend there's something great that you would miss out on > without the combination of IDE hardware and the half-assed support for > it in 4th edition. > > i don't know what aspect exactly of "classic" computing motivates you > to recommend this struggle, vick. With 9front cancel culture/tribalism aside, I find making "classic" Plan 9 work on hardware to be enjoyable. It is an inexpensive hobby and the sense of discovery is still there. I never thought that I'd have to justify my use of Plan 9 on 9fans. Happy New Year! Vester "Vic" Thacker -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5888591114a7cf34-M07b92d4db72f39aa7b52f195 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Boot CD chokes
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021, at 08:29, Stanley Lieber wrote: > On December 28, 2021 10:42:27 PM UTC, Humm wrote: >>Quoth Duke Normandin: >>> I'm new to Plan9. I don't know fuck all! So I gotta start at the >>> beginning - NOT at sysadmin level. Off to Google ... >> >>The beginning is the name. The thing you use is “9front”. The abandoned >>thing is “Plan 9”. Note the blank. >> > > the plan fell off. If anyone is interested in running classic Plan 9 on classic commodity hardware, I'd be glad to help with issues. Nowadays older computer systems (circa 2000) can often be bought for less than $20 USD per system and components updated for less than a $100 USD per system if needed. Getting classic Plan 9 system working well is an enjoyable past time. As 9fans has become more of a 9front forum, just email me if you need support for classic Plan 9. Sincerely, Vester "Vic" Thacker v...@tip9ug.jp -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5888591114a7cf34-M540ec56bfa9c0f7750053213 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Boot CD chokes
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021, at 03:03, Duke Normandin wrote: > On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 12:56:19 -0500 > "Frank D. Engel, Jr." wrote: > >> Partially to answer an earlier question and partially to >> emphasize just how different Plan 9 is: you "log out" by >> rebooting. > > You're kidding right? So it's a single-user/multi-tasking OS? > > -- > Duke > ** Text only please. Bottom post is best for me ** 9front and Plan 9 are multi-user/multi-tasking distributed operating environments. How 9front and Plan 9 are used today differs greatly than how it was originally meant to be deployed. An end user was meant to login via a Plan 9 terminal to access a distrubuted operating environment. Nowadays, folks typically install Plan 9 or 9front on a single laptop and use it as a terminal and server. Since there is no distributed environment, it appears to be single-user/multi-tasking. You were meant to shutdown the terminal session, not the server. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5888591114a7cf34-M2987089fb585827375cf09ea Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] New to plan9
Also, I recently began work to revise Plan 9 documentation. If you'd like to help, feel free to join me on the TIP9UG mailing list at https://groups.google.com/g/tokyo-inferno--plan-9-users-group or contact me directly at vic.thac...@fastmail.fm. Sincerely, Vester "Vic" Thacker On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, at 23:07, sirjofri wrote: > 15.10.2021 15:05:25 Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir : > >> A few useful links to get started: > > To add more infos for community stuff and more: > > (Of course, read as much as possible, the man pages, wiki, fqa, articles, > papers, My notes here are just for you to get a small overview of > the community.) > > In general, you'll notice that the bubble is quite small. You'll see the > same people hanging around and actually meet with people rather than > writing as an anonymous person to other anonymous persons. I was active > for less than a month and people started recognizing me. > > Here are places people hang out and discuss stuff: > > Mailing lists. There are few of them. The 9fans mailing list (here), I > won't say anything about it (you are already here). > > There's also the 9front mailing list for 9front-specific topics (9front > is a fork); as well as the inferno mailing list. > > For chatting there are multiple channels: > > The 9fans discord server [1] if you prefer modern apps. We have a voice > chat and some channels, as well as a bot. Some of the channels are > bridged to a matrix channel and (through that) to the ##9fans irc on > oftc. > > The ##9fans oftc (actually multiple channels) channels. > > The #cat-v channel on oftc is often used for 9front discussion (and cat-v > discussion). > > 9p.zone (which is also the web page) has its own chat system known as > gridchat (short: grid). It's a 9p filesystem you can import into your > system and read-write the files there. There are some very special people > there who don't usually hang out in the other community channels. > > In general you'll meet many people in multiple channels depending on > their preference. You can ask your questions everywhere and hopefully > they'll be answered. > > Welcome to the community! > > sirjofri > > --- > [1] https://discord.gg/AMDKS4wdVR -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T4e8989ee42951fa0-Ma148d318669bada3581e7291 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] dp9ik port
As it is a 9front specific question, you might consider posting to the 9front mailing list. To know more about 9front mailing lists, see http://lists.9front.org/. Sincerely, Vic On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, at 07:08, Eli Cohen wrote: > hello all, > > I wanted to check back in about the continuing saga to port a dp9ik > patch upstream. > > where I believe we left off in that discussion, there was advice to > make a roadmap, involving some kinds of software development > techniques I don't understand at all, to be completely honest... I > have tried to keep after that a bit and try to figure out a roadmap > based on what I have done before and what it would take to do this. > > before I ever started on this project at all, I had looked into dp9ik > before to re-implement it in javascript for another project, so I do > know a little about the login process and how dp9ik works as a > pre-shared key authenticator for an encrypted connection. (not the > math behind that though! just ported what was necessary to javascript) > > I started doing the same thing kinda, just back-porting stuff to send > a patch upstream. it rapidly started becoming as much of a mess as my > efforts to port to javascript, what was only C to C! I'm not a > professional here at all... > > I did note it seemed helpful to have both types of plan 9 systems and > both types of drawterm because of slight differences in the keyboard > input > > thanks everyone! -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T21443e91804188d5-Me62cbc087d029bc83969e6bf Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Software philosophy
Starting from a false premise does not help. 9front is not a development branch of Plan 9. Plan 9 is Plan 9. 9front is 9front. 9front is an open-source fork or derivation of Plan 9. Trying to make 9front the new and official Plan 9 does seem absurd. I'm not sure why there is a strong need for validation. 9front does not need official recognition. Let 9front be what it is. It can exist independent of the Plan 9 name. Sincerely, Vester On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, at 16:02, Skip Tavakkolian wrote: > I changed the Subject line to better reflect the discussion. Please do go on. > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 8:57 PM Lucio De Re wrote: > > > > On 8/17/21, Keith Gibbs wrote: > > > One Plan Nine? > > > > > > Sure, we have the historical version of the Bell Labs/Lucient codebase, > > > preserved as 9legacy, but yeah we have one currently developed branch of > > > Plan 9 called 9front. Are you proposing that to be called “Plan 9 from > > > Bell > > > Labs 5th edition”? > > > > > I bet you think I don't; you wouldn't ask, otherwise. > > > > > To be serious though, when has monolithic code bases ever benefited things > > > in an Open Source community? > > > > You bought the "exceptionalism" Kool-Aid, lock, stock and barrel, > > haven't you? It's a question of size: a small code base should remain > > small, then it is not weaponisable or monetisable. So we raise the bar > > higher and higher and shake off whatever can't stick hard enough. A > > human natural instinct (more!, gimme more! features! bugs! anything so > > I can have bigger, faster!) bent to the interest of elites (here in > > Africa we know it as the Big Man Syndrome). > > > > > I mean the only reason would be to control who > > > can/cannot make decisions on what goes in the stone soup. > > Do you have incontrovertible evidence? In my caffeine-deprived state, > > I feel you're just following the sheep gospel, no offence intended. In > > my opinion, the trap is always there, ready to be deployed. And the > > masses are always ready to fall into it. Occasionally a Christ figure > > comes along to warn us, but only the elite can understand the message > > and of course they then distort it in the direction that suits them > > best. And the masses are none the wiser, not this time, not the next > > time, not any other time, because the elite can be swapped out > > entirely and the new elite becomes them, ad nauseam. > > > > > There are multiple > > > BSDs. There are multiple Linuxes. Using 9legacy as more than historical > > > baseline means that we will be stuck with decisions put in place 20-30 > > > years > > > ago rather than iterating and moving things forward. The purpose of P9F is > > > to “promote and support” not to regulate. > > > > > Sure, and an infinite variety of vehicles with wheels at the four > > corners and seats that just occupy space and consume carbon-based > > fuels. Even EVs where each wheel could be both motor and power > > generator have retained that ridiculous formula. But they look > > different (sort of, there's greater difference in time than there in > > style). Oh, let's not ignore that autos also sit idle (my estimate) > > 95% of their life: is that what they are designed for? And the AI in > > my phone, is that also sitting idle? I had a couple of instances > > recently where in the middle of the night my password locked Samsung > > J5 decided to continue reading me the SF short story collection I > > turned off before going to sleep. > > > > But Android is Open Source, isn't it? I can look under the bonned, can't I? > > > > Well, the P9F is what it is. It will also become what it is naturally > > attracted to unless some boundaries - Trump's fence? - are put in > > place. > > > > > I would love to imagine a time when we have a resurgence of multiple Plan > > > 9s. I would love to see Akaros and 9atom have a shot in the arm [although > > > much of what the latter had seems to be swallowed up by 9front and 9legacy > > > and the project dead]. I would love to see NIX get a little more traction, > > > as it seems it is just a standalone experiment [albeit a cool one in terms > > > of goals]. I think it would be really healthy for Jeanne and Harvey to be > > > more closer to “family” in the community rather than third cousins. Once > > > we > > > have a plurality of opinions, of perspectives, of visions, then we can > > > better broker standards and overall trajectories. > > > > > I'm going to leave this here, with a comment to the effect that I > > totally disagree with the sentiments. There is room, need is not a > > strong enough word for what I'm thinking, for creativity, but software > > is not a primordial soup out of which complex organisms will rise to > > take over the Universe and consume it out of existence, its and > > theirs. > > > > More likely, we'll teach - by example, not intentionally, no - our AI > > products to weaponise the tools we are no longer sufficiently > > naturally intelligent to
Re: [9fans] Foundation new releases question
Hello all, My question is, "Where can we find the official Plan 9 Foundation's main branch so folks can get start sending pull requests?" It would be nice to see the community members collaborate toward a 5th edition. Thanks, Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc472e4a0c0b6f084-M2cde896c9ab7e2c8c3fd5469 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Transfer of Plan 9 to the Plan 9 Foundation
Congratulations to all involved. You have my utmost gratitude. Thank you. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf20bce89ef96d4b6-M53720b70dfe6c437bab2d320 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
