Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
BTW, for Plan 9 noob enlightenment, HN ran this article today: http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/1st_edition/designing_plan_9 — Duke Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 18, 2022, at 3:19 PM, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2022, at 03:54, Antonio Barrones wrote: > [snip] >>> I understand that Plan 9 is not being developed anymore, >> It is not developed anymore in Bell Labs, but many of the original >> developers are part of the Plan9 Foundation and they are promoting it >> in different ways: https://plan9foundation.org/activities.html So I >> would not say that it "is not being developed anymore". > > The Plan 9 Foundation activities page > (https://plan9foundation.org/activities.html) states, "Preparing for a new > release, including patches". > > Regards, > Vester "Vic" Thacker -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M5b2f51c294934286219264ef Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
On Wed, Jan 19, 2022, at 03:54, Antonio Barrones wrote: [snip] >> I understand that Plan 9 is not being developed anymore, > It is not developed anymore in Bell Labs, but many of the original > developers are part of the Plan9 Foundation and they are promoting it > in different ways: https://plan9foundation.org/activities.html So I > would not say that it "is not being developed anymore". The Plan 9 Foundation activities page (https://plan9foundation.org/activities.html) states, "Preparing for a new release, including patches". Regards, Vester "Vic" Thacker -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M9e18f6ea28916a51bdd9a731 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 01:54:02PM -0500, Antonio Barrones wrote: > Linux distros are not only "Linux", they are GNU/Linux. Linux is only the > kernel of a GNU/Linux system (a distro). Android is not a distro because they > don't have GNU, but Android is "Linux" because it has Linux as kernel. Please keep FSF FUD off this list. Alpine is a Linux distro and doesn't rely on GNU. There are, and always have been, several such. Copyright cultists riding on coattails notwithstanding, there isn't much point in belaboring such terminology, since Plan 9 is not typically distributed in modular packages, but as an integrated system, and GNU cruft doesn't readily build on it anyway. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M7ec276e4c284c40496449d0e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
Quoth Antonio Barrones: Linux distros are not only "Linux", they are GNU/Linux. Linux is only the kernel of a GNU/Linux system (a distro). Android is not a distro because they don't have GNU, but Android is "Linux" because it has Linux as kernel. Linux distros are not only Linux, they are whatever other software they consist of and Linux. Some of that might be developed under the umbrella of the GNU project, much of it likely isn’t. The term “GNU/Linux” is garbage. Android is yet another operating system using Linux. It seldom getting called “Linux distro” stems from it being used very differently (Java hell) and perhaps from how hard it is to see its Unix-like-ness. That has nothing to do with how much of it is part of the GNU project. It is not developed anymore in Bell Labs, but many of the original developers are part of the Plan9 Foundation and they are promoting it in different ways: https://plan9foundation.org/activities.html So I would not say that it "is not being developed anymore". Patches for Plan 9 exist. Forks exist. Yet, Plan 9 stays the exact same. Plan 9 with patches is Plan 9 with patches. 9front is 9front. Plan 9 has a modification timestamp of 2015. From the little I see, the Plan 9 Foundation changes little there. Plan 9, with a timestamp of 2015, now is licensed under an Expat license. And retains its timestamp. So no, Plan 9 is not being developed anymore. -- Humm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M9431455edbac7b86ac06556e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
> I understand that Android isn't a fork of Linux, I meant to imply that > although Android is argued to be a Linux distro Linux distros are not only "Linux", they are GNU/Linux. Linux is only the kernel of a GNU/Linux system (a distro). Android is not a distro because they don't have GNU, but Android is "Linux" because it has Linux as kernel. > I understand that Plan 9 is not being developed anymore, It is not developed anymore in Bell Labs, but many of the original developers are part of the Plan9 Foundation and they are promoting it in different ways: https://plan9foundation.org/activities.html So I would not say that it "is not being developed anymore". Antonio B. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M8e702dd58e09409d7007f769 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
Quoth Matt: I see. Now that I look at it, 9fans its more similar to 9front than Plan 9 indeed. My confusion arose from the description being "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs". Besides that, the subreddit is r/plan9, and people seem to talk more often about Plan 9 itself than 9front. Thanks for clearing it up. The subreddit, except there is no “the subreddit”. Just another place where people who don’t know Plan 9 ask people who don’t know Plan 9 about whatever they currently think Plan 9 is. In the wild, I see more people talking about plan9port than about Plan 9. -- Humm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-Mdc822d833e78a2dd9c75d2df Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
On 17/01/2022 23:36, Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir wrote: On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 12:31 AM Matt wrote: But that's why 9front was forked, right? They say it on their FAQ. Even though Plan 9 isn't being developed anymore, doesn't the fork cause worry that one day they become too different, especially since the community is rather centered around Plan 9 rather than 9front? Or is the community actively trying to make 9front be accepted as the official continuation of Plan 9? I'm afraid you got it wrong. Community is mostly centered around 9front. One of the reasons is that it actually works and is still being developed and used by many. Plan 9 is dead, 9front lives on. The Raspberry Pi port of Plan 9 would appear to be alive and well and likewise I hear of porting to more recent architectures, which is similarly work being done outside of 9front. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M2d433fa6c4359ececaad1aa3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 12:36:19AM +0100, Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir wrote: > > I'm afraid you got it wrong. Community is mostly centered around > 9front. One of the reasons is that it actually works and is still > being developed and used by many. Plan 9 is dead, 9front lives on. > There is also software developed outside of 9front git repo, by people > who use 9front: http://only9fans.com > Whether some "secret community" decides to "accept" (or not) 9front as > "official" doesn't matter. > And part of the reason it doesn't matter is that there ARE active users of non-9front Plan 9, and they all have reasons (some unique, some shared) to do things that way, and when good code shows up, everyone benefits, no matter which flavor of Plan 9 they wrote it for. Regardless of other interplay, that shared interest is what makes up a community, and there doesn't need to be complete uniformity of thought for that to be both real and valuable. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-Md6f05f1330ae5b2deb4cde75 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
if there's any branch of plan9 missing in 9front please just send the patch or a reminder. On 1/18/22, Matt wrote: > > On Monday, January 17, 2022, at 8:36 PM, Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir > wrote: >> I'm afraid you got it wrong. Community is mostly centered around > 9front. One of the reasons is that it actually works and is still > being developed and used by many. Plan 9 is dead, 9front lives on. > There is also software developed outside of 9front git repo, by people > who use 9front: http://only9fans.com Whether some "secret community" decides > to "accept" (or not) 9front as > "official" doesn't matter. > I see. Now that I look at it, 9fans its more similar to 9front than Plan 9 > indeed. My confusion arose from the description being "Fans of the OS Plan 9 > from Bell Labs". Besides that, the subreddit is r/plan9, and people seem to > talk more often about Plan 9 itself than 9front. Thanks for clearing it up. > > On Monday, January 17, 2022, at 9:21 PM, Thaddeus Woskowiak wrote: >> All wrong. From my perspective 9front is plan 9 from the future >> compared to today's plan 9. 9front development moves at a much faster >> pace thanks to adopting tools like mercurial in the past and now git. >> That enables devs who are passionate about moving plan 9 forward >> commit access using tools they, and most of today's developers are >> already intimate with. It has virtualization, modern encryption, >> cleaned up pci code, rc fixes, boot clean up, and so much more. >> >> The mailing list is very active and crawling with devs eager to review >> and apply fixes. It has a lot of enthusiastic energy behind it and >> keeps the core philosophy of plan 9 alive. This has attracted many >> wonderful and talented devs who would have otherwise stumbled with the >> old defaults of legacy. >> >> Personally, I struggled with plan 9 until finding 9front. I run a CPU >> server at home 24/7 and it's been running reliably for years. I then >> netboot or tcp boot everything else. I love working with this >> operating system. > That's really great. I'm also interested and quite enthusiastic about > working with 9front. Although, I'd have more chances of winning a > competition for the worst developer... Thanks for your help. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-Ma28c3e32d3b18dd271e6d989 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
On Monday, January 17, 2022, at 8:36 PM, Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir wrote: > I'm afraid you got it wrong. Community is mostly centered around 9front. One of the reasons is that it actually works and is still being developed and used by many. Plan 9 is dead, 9front lives on. There is also software developed outside of 9front git repo, by people who use 9front: http://only9fans.com Whether some "secret community" decides to "accept" (or not) 9front as "official" doesn't matter. I see. Now that I look at it, 9fans its more similar to 9front than Plan 9 indeed. My confusion arose from the description being "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs". Besides that, the subreddit is r/plan9, and people seem to talk more often about Plan 9 itself than 9front. Thanks for clearing it up. On Monday, January 17, 2022, at 9:21 PM, Thaddeus Woskowiak wrote: > All wrong. From my perspective 9front is plan 9 from the future > compared to today's plan 9. 9front development moves at a much faster > pace thanks to adopting tools like mercurial in the past and now git. > That enables devs who are passionate about moving plan 9 forward > commit access using tools they, and most of today's developers are > already intimate with. It has virtualization, modern encryption, > cleaned up pci code, rc fixes, boot clean up, and so much more. > > The mailing list is very active and crawling with devs eager to review > and apply fixes. It has a lot of enthusiastic energy behind it and > keeps the core philosophy of plan 9 alive. This has attracted many > wonderful and talented devs who would have otherwise stumbled with the > old defaults of legacy. > > Personally, I struggled with plan 9 until finding 9front. I run a CPU > server at home 24/7 and it's been running reliably for years. I then > netboot or tcp boot everything else. I love working with this > operating system. That's really great. I'm also interested and quite enthusiastic about working with 9front. Although, I'd have more chances of winning a competition for the worst developer... Thanks for your help. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-Mcbcabe564e19fafe76ecbd35 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 6:32 PM Matt wrote: > > But that's why 9front was forked, right? They say it on their FAQ. Even > though Plan 9 isn't being developed anymore, doesn't the fork cause worry > that one day they become too different, especially since the community is > rather centered around Plan 9 rather than 9front? Or is the community > actively trying to make 9front be accepted as the official continuation of > Plan 9? > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink All wrong. From my perspective 9front is plan 9 from the future compared to today's plan 9. 9front development moves at a much faster pace thanks to adopting tools like mercurial in the past and now git. That enables devs who are passionate about moving plan 9 forward commit access using tools they, and most of today's developers are already intimate with. It has virtualization, modern encryption, cleaned up pci code, rc fixes, boot clean up, and so much more. The mailing list is very active and crawling with devs eager to review and apply fixes. It has a lot of enthusiastic energy behind it and keeps the core philosophy of plan 9 alive. This has attracted many wonderful and talented devs who would have otherwise stumbled with the old defaults of legacy. Personally, I struggled with plan 9 until finding 9front. I run a CPU server at home 24/7 and it's been running reliably for years. I then netboot or tcp boot everything else. I love working with this operating system. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M25c8857f931ef72ce276287f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 12:31 AM Matt wrote: > > But that's why 9front was forked, right? They say it on their FAQ. Even > though Plan 9 isn't being developed anymore, doesn't the fork cause worry > that one day they become too different, especially since the community is > rather centered around Plan 9 rather than 9front? Or is the community > actively trying to make 9front be accepted as the official continuation of > Plan 9? I'm afraid you got it wrong. Community is mostly centered around 9front. One of the reasons is that it actually works and is still being developed and used by many. Plan 9 is dead, 9front lives on. There is also software developed outside of 9front git repo, by people who use 9front: http://only9fans.com Whether some "secret community" decides to "accept" (or not) 9front as "official" doesn't matter. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M12fc411b3cd1a0d462aa340f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
But that's why 9front was forked, right? They say it on their FAQ. Even though Plan 9 isn't being developed anymore, doesn't the fork cause worry that one day they become too different, especially since the community is rather centered around Plan 9 rather than 9front? Or is the community actively trying to make 9front be accepted as the official continuation of Plan 9? -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M416d1bd55b012e3817746334 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
Quoth Matt : > @ori: Those are examples of forked software that happened because of the > discontinuation of the original software, right? No. Most of the originals were around after the fork, at least for a while. Many of them are still around. In some cases, it's the fork that didn't make it. Most forks are over disagreements in process, people, or corporate ownership. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-Mdc034025d2f3485d7990e7e4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
@Humm: I understand that Android isn't a fork of Linux, I meant to imply that although Android is argued to be a Linux distro, they have very different environments that can't easily interact with each other. I also know that the meaning of forking is objective, I meant that forking invokes the mentioned feelings in me, subjectively. I understand that Plan 9 is not being developed anymore, but the community seems to be centered around it rather than 9front. Therefore, I wondered if that's because 9front, despite being forked, intends to stay true to Plan 9, like Linux distros stay true to the Linux kernel despite small configurations, as you said, so that if other operational systems are forked from Plan 9, they are able to interoperate easily with 9front. @ori: Those are examples of forked software that happened because of the discontinuation of the original software, right? At least most of them are. That's what 9front is to Plan 9, right? If so, thanks for the clarification. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M87789286d714c98cde7fe91b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
Quoth matthpmore...@gmail.com: > I know it's subjective, but a fork implies to me that the goals and > methods of the forking developers are different from the original > software, maybe eventually leading to a completely contrasted > software, with different environment, tools and inner workings, like > Android is to Linux. That's why I wanted to clarify this question. More commonly, forks remain similar. Xorg vs xfree86. Libreoffice vs Openoffice Mariadb vs MySQL OpenBSD vs NetBSD Blink vs Webkit libav vs ffmpeg etc, etc. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M23e31f49e85f7588f6b4c52e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
Quoth matthpmore...@gmail.com: Hello. I just found out about Plan 9 and I'm trying to understand more. I see that 9front is often called a fork of Plan 9. However, reading the FAQ and the 9front wiki, the authors seem to often "conflate" both. I mean, I don't really understand what's written, but it's like the instructions for some stuff isn't really meant specifically for 9front, but rather Plan 9. Much stuff works the same in both. Besides that, reading what's different in 9front from Plan 9, it mentions drivers and programs. That makes me think that while 9front is called a fork, it doesn't really differ from Plan 9 in how it works and is structured, Both have sources in /sys/src. On top of that, much of the 9front source descents from Plan 9. And indeed, 9front is close to Plan 9 in how it can be used. much like a Linux distro may change some things about the Linux kernel, but in essence they're the same and easily interoperable. Is that right? A Linux distro seldom changes “some things” about the kernel. A custom configuration maybe, but little major and nothing that stops you from using a custom kernel or a kernel compiled on and for a different operating system (distro, if you will). That’s the one piece of software they all share: Linux. An operating system using Linux just uses upstream Linux or at least keeps up with upstream, if it has its own /fork/. 9front doesn’t have an upstream with which it could keep up. Plan 9 is dead and 9front is alive. I know it's subjective, but a fork implies to me that the goals and methods of the forking developers are different from the original software, maybe eventually leading to a completely contrasted software, with different environment, tools and inner workings, like Android is to Linux. That's why I wanted to clarify this question. You keep mixing things up. Android is not a fork of Linux. A fork of Linux by the Android project might be. And that fork, albeit heavily patched, still /has/ an upstream. 9front is a fork of Plan 9. Plan 9 is an operating system; 9front is an operating system. 9front will feel quite similar to Plan 9 in a lot of ways. Many tools and inner workings are the same (with bugfixes and working on more hardware and also otherwise better). You could argue that the goals and methods of 9front are different from Plan 9, but that has little to do with what constitutes a fork. 9front was forked off Plan 9, so it’s a fork. Little about that is subjective. -- Humm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M2aa075a02ab6a59d323072e5 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
Hello. I just found out about Plan 9 and I'm trying to understand more. I see that 9front is often called a fork of Plan 9. However, reading the FAQ and the 9front wiki, the authors seem to often "conflate" both. I mean, I don't really understand what's written, but it's like the instructions for some stuff isn't really meant specifically for 9front, but rather Plan 9. Besides that, reading what's different in 9front from Plan 9, it mentions drivers and programs. That makes me think that while 9front is called a fork, it doesn't really differ from Plan 9 in how it works and is structured, much like a Linux distro may change some things about the Linux kernel, but in essence they're the same and easily interoperable. Is that right? I know it's subjective, but a fork implies to me that the goals and methods of the forking developers are different from the original software, maybe eventually leading to a completely contrasted software, with different environment, tools and inner workings, like Android is to Linux. That's why I wanted to clarify this question. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-Ma8a28f35f9d907ccf2f413ff Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
