Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list
The reason things are so insecure is because the US government likes it that way, desinged it that way and does everything it can to keep it that way. They are the beyond a doubt the biggest gang of organized criminals on earth : liars, murderers, spies ... you name it. Thanks for welcoming me to the list ... but I see you use google yourself ... second only to the US government as spies ... soon to surpass, I'm sure. I use yahoo trash mail for the list because I'd like to keep my 'real' email address to myself (when I find one). You deliver all your correspondents's mail to the googleplex along with your own. You have a choice ... but you foreclose your correspondents' ... if they want to correspond with you. Google has it all. -- This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or recipient. John Francis Lee 246/3 Thanon Kaew Wai T.Ropwiang A.Mueang J.Chiangrai 57000 Thailand On Wed, 8/6/14, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 9fans@9fans.net Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014, 10:16 AM And, today especially, that advice applies to everybody: http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26281956/record-breaking-data-breach-highlights-widespread-security-flaws On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 5:14 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: You must know your password to change your options (including changing the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: 3224522 please change your password for this mailing list. this one is out in public. i hope you aren't reusing passwords.
Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list
You should amend that This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or recipient. with something about shadowy Goggle like computers feltching information on your spending habits... The world changed on us Marty - and without our help, I might add... On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 5:29 PM, John Francis Lee jf...@yahoo.com wrote: The reason things are so insecure is because the US government likes it that way, desinged it that way and does everything it can to keep it that way. They are the beyond a doubt the biggest gang of organized criminals on earth : liars, murderers, spies ... you name it. Thanks for welcoming me to the list ... but I see you use google yourself ... second only to the US government as spies ... soon to surpass, I'm sure. I use yahoo trash mail for the list because I'd like to keep my 'real' email address to myself (when I find one). You deliver all your correspondents's mail to the googleplex along with your own. You have a choice ... but you foreclose your correspondents' ... if they want to correspond with you. Google has it all. -- This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or recipient. John Francis Lee 246/3 Thanon Kaew Wai T.Ropwiang A.Mueang J.Chiangrai 57000 Thailand On Wed, 8/6/14, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 9fans@9fans.net Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014, 10:16 AM And, today especially, that advice applies to everybody: http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26281956/record-breaking-data-breach-highlights-widespread-security-flaws On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 5:14 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: You must know your password to change your options (including changing the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: 3224522 please change your password for this mailing list. this one is out in public. i hope you aren't reusing passwords.
Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list
sorry ... I didn't realize I was replying to the list ... the email I got came from an individual -- This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or recipient. John Francis Lee 246/3 Thanon Kaew Wai T.Ropwiang A.Mueang J.Chiangrai 57000 Thailand On Wed, 8/13/14, Shane Morris edgecombe...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 9fans@9fans.net Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2014, 2:37 PM You should amend that This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or recipient. with something about shadowy Goggle like computers feltching information on your spending habits... The world changed on us Marty - and without our help, I might add... On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 5:29 PM, John Francis Lee jf...@yahoo.com wrote: The reason things are so insecure is because the US government likes it that way, desinged it that way and does everything it can to keep it that way. They are the beyond a doubt the biggest gang of organized criminals on earth : liars, murderers, spies ... you name it. Thanks for welcoming me to the list ... but I see you use google yourself ... second only to the US government as spies ... soon to surpass, I'm sure. I use yahoo trash mail for the list because I'd like to keep my 'real' email address to myself (when I find one). You deliver all your correspondents's mail to the googleplex along with your own. You have a choice ... but you foreclose your correspondents' ... if they want to correspond with you. Google has it all. -- This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or recipient. John Francis Lee 246/3 Thanon Kaew Wai T.Ropwiang A.Mueang J.Chiangrai 57000 Thailand On Wed, 8/6/14, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 9fans@9fans.net Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014, 10:16 AM And, today especially, that advice applies to everybody: http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26281956/record-breaking-data-breach-highlights-widespread-security-flaws On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 5:14 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: You must know your password to change your options (including changing the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: 3224522 please change your password for this mailing list. this one is out in public. i hope you aren't reusing passwords.
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
Hello, I'm somewhat disappointed about the troff software in Plan9. Yes, that's understandable... It seems to me nobody actually uses the software heavily here. I did few initial tests with eqn(1) and in addition to the TAB problem I saw that the root sign line and large brackets are not aligned. The attached file shows these problems. It can be processed to PostScript with These two problems I noticed, too. About the problem with misaligned brackets I wrote, I think, before, and I also mentioned where the problem may be. It is actually a few lines in a postscript file that is loaded before your document is read. I had to comment out some 'adjustments'. For the square-root thing I actually wrote an awk script that corrects it in the ps output. Not really the right solution, but works. I may share it and/or find some more details if you want it. Does nobody use troff on Plan9? eqn(1) is maybe from around 1990, why had these bugs not been fixed? Simply people don't use it. It's a pitty, but it's so. I tried and finally managed to write my PhD thesis with it, even full of mathematics... I set up means for back-references, creation of contents, etc. Note that there are also bugs in the p9 version wrt the p9p version. It's not 100% the same. But the topic is broader as well. E.g., if you just compare what you get from groff eqn, heirloom eqn, ..., you don't get the same. Further there is the unicode support issue, use of opentype fonts etc. The mathematics is not on par with TeX, it needs much more attention to get a good result. Using the macro language is a bad choice today, which was confirmed by the authors --- it's not lucid and is error prone. (Pehaps the way is to use the 'pm' macro and post-processor.) (Perhaps see also the work by Ali Gholami Rudi and his neatroff.) Ruda
Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become
http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html just when you think a given operating systems would not be bastardized any further, some genius fucks it to the next level. launchd/smf and a webserver as process 1... baffling, this is.
Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become
This is a valid observation, although as everything that has to do with architecture, hard to prove. (Don't use the P-word, that's reserved for Plato and Nietzsche.) I also have the impression that the trend set by the original Unix architecture (small, one-job components, generic interfaces) is nowadays replaced in many areas with integrated solutions (frameworks) that provide non-separable components and sometimes redundant interfaces. For systemd, according to Wikipedia, it provides: - socket *and* d-bus interfaces - a cron-like scheduler - a logging facility, but also access to syslogd - udev, which was pretty complex itself (frustrating for me: useless for my setup, had to learn it without having any curiosity/interest) - etc. WHY? The trend can also be seen in other areas. Take Spring for Java: gathers together components that were implemented separately long time ago. Or even the iOS aps: there is no meaningful IPC there. One reason why I try to take what I can from Plan9 is that I profoundly mistrust systems that I cannot understand due to their size/bloat. Arnold, thanks for the food for the mind :-). Cheers, Dante On 13.08.2014 06:53, Aharon Robbins wrote: http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html Someone should turn this guy on to Plan 9. :-) Arnold
Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list
The last two comments on this page might be of interest: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7640937 (I found that simply by searching using the 'site' operator on Google: site:news.ycombinator.com maidsafe news.ycombinator.com is a good place to read about a given startup.) On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 12:44 AM, John Francis Lee jf...@yahoo.com wrote: sorry ... I didn't realize I was replying to the list ... the email I got came from an individual -- This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or recipient. John Francis Lee 246/3 Thanon Kaew Wai T.Ropwiang A.Mueang J.Chiangrai 57000 Thailand On Wed, 8/13/14, Shane Morris edgecombe...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 9fans@9fans.net Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2014, 2:37 PM You should amend that This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or recipient. with something about shadowy Goggle like computers feltching information on your spending habits... The world changed on us Marty - and without our help, I might add... On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 5:29 PM, John Francis Lee jf...@yahoo.com wrote: The reason things are so insecure is because the US government likes it that way, desinged it that way and does everything it can to keep it that way. They are the beyond a doubt the biggest gang of organized criminals on earth : liars, murderers, spies ... you name it. Thanks for welcoming me to the list ... but I see you use google yourself ... second only to the US government as spies ... soon to surpass, I'm sure. I use yahoo trash mail for the list because I'd like to keep my 'real' email address to myself (when I find one). You deliver all your correspondents's mail to the googleplex along with your own. You have a choice ... but you foreclose your correspondents' ... if they want to correspond with you. Google has it all. -- This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or recipient. John Francis Lee 246/3 Thanon Kaew Wai T.Ropwiang A.Mueang J.Chiangrai 57000 Thailand On Wed, 8/6/14, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 9fans@9fans.net Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014, 10:16 AM And, today especially, that advice applies to everybody: http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26281956/record-breaking-data-breach-highlights-widespread-security-flaws On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 5:14 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: You must know your password to change your options (including changing the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: 3224522 please change your password for this mailing list. this one is out in public. i hope you aren't reusing passwords.
Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list
Please ignore my last message. It was intended for an entirely different email thread. How embarrassing. (At least the SnR was pretty low to begin with.) On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 1:20 AM, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com wrote: The last two comments on this page might be of interest: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7640937 (I found that simply by searching using the 'site' operator on Google: site:news.ycombinator.com maidsafe news.ycombinator.com is a good place to read about a given startup.) On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 12:44 AM, John Francis Lee jf...@yahoo.com wrote: sorry ... I didn't realize I was replying to the list ... the email I got came from an individual -- This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or recipient. John Francis Lee 246/3 Thanon Kaew Wai T.Ropwiang A.Mueang J.Chiangrai 57000 Thailand On Wed, 8/13/14, Shane Morris edgecombe...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 9fans@9fans.net Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2014, 2:37 PM You should amend that This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or recipient. with something about shadowy Goggle like computers feltching information on your spending habits... The world changed on us Marty - and without our help, I might add... On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 5:29 PM, John Francis Lee jf...@yahoo.com wrote: The reason things are so insecure is because the US government likes it that way, desinged it that way and does everything it can to keep it that way. They are the beyond a doubt the biggest gang of organized criminals on earth : liars, murderers, spies ... you name it. Thanks for welcoming me to the list ... but I see you use google yourself ... second only to the US government as spies ... soon to surpass, I'm sure. I use yahoo trash mail for the list because I'd like to keep my 'real' email address to myself (when I find one). You deliver all your correspondents's mail to the googleplex along with your own. You have a choice ... but you foreclose your correspondents' ... if they want to correspond with you. Google has it all. -- This message has been intercepted and read by U.S. government agencies including the FBI, CIA, and NSA without notice or warrant or knowledge of sender or recipient. John Francis Lee 246/3 Thanon Kaew Wai T.Ropwiang A.Mueang J.Chiangrai 57000 Thailand On Wed, 8/6/14, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: Re: [9fans] Welcome to the 9fans mailing list To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 9fans@9fans.net Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2014, 10:16 AM And, today especially, that advice applies to everybody: http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26281956/record-breaking-data-breach-highlights-widespread-security-flaws On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 5:14 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: You must know your password to change your options (including changing the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: 3224522 please change your password for this mailing list. this one is out in public. i hope you aren't reusing passwords.
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
Dear Carsten, first, I don't understand German (I am Czech), but I used google translate, hopefully getting the meaning. Second, it's generally better (unless it's really personal or highly technical) to keep the discussion within the mailing list, since then other people can also contribute; I am far from an expert. Thus I have brought the discussion back to the list. These two problems I noticed, too. About the problem with misaligned brackets I wrote, I think, before, And I therefore Mentioned where the problem-'may be. It is Actually A few lines in a postscript file did is loaded before your document Is read. I had to comment out some 'adjustments'. This is not a problem of eqn (1)? If you have more info on this, I'm interested. search the archive: http://9fans.net/archive/2011/11/106 some more ... http://9fans.net/archive/?q=sykora+eqngo=Grep For the square-root thing I actually wrote to awk script did Corrects it in the ps output. Not really the right solution, But works. I may share it and / or find some more details if you want it. The root problem I would like to get to the root. All the world has yet used DWB. And all the books with documentation eqn were set so. How is it possible that can be such a gross error in DWB 3.2? (So I've noticed that only at the cross-check with plan9port that it is included there as well.) Yes, it would be better to go to the root of the problems. But for some reason it looked easier and faster for me to just correct the output. I was then under time pressure. I tried and finally managed to write my PhD thesis with it, Even full of mathematics ... I set up Means for back-references, creation of contents, Etc. I had my documents always set with groff. When testing with other versions I see many mistakes. Of course I thought at first that contains the groff error. Gradually, I fear that the opposite is the case. With Plan9 as some documents are not even processed until the end. I would say that groff is *much, much* more tested software. P9 troff is basically dead. I do not understand the whole character set problem. How can it be that not even the standard R-Font is complete. Was really the license issue so serious? As far as I can tell the system is simply old and the various parts of it have not been really mantained. It has also never been put together so that the letter coverage would be good. Further there is a licencing issue on (I think) Lucida fonts (which can be only used on p9 but not on p9p), some of it, however, was replaced by another set. (I don't know much more, search the archive, or perhaps somebody else will tell more.) I believe that majority of font problems would now be solved differently; note that heirloom troff (contrary to groff) can read opentype. Note thatthere are so bugs in the p9 version wrt the p9p Version. It's not 100% the same. I'm doing me very hard with Plan9 and would rather P9P used. I have also seen the difference now. Looks like that changes to P9-troff would no longer flow to P9P? I'd rather say that p9p software is the source these days. Using the macro language is a bad choice today, Which Team? Confirmed by the authors What do you mean? Which macro language? troff is a macro language. Prone. (Pehaps the way is to use the 'pm' macro and Post-processor.) pm I've never used it, what is it? google search for Page makeup by postprocessing text formatter output by Kernighan Wyk Ruda
Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 10:02:46AM +0200, dante wrote: [...] I also have the impression that the trend set by the original Unix architecture (small, one-job components, generic interfaces) is nowadays replaced in many areas with integrated solutions (frameworks) that provide non-separable components and sometimes redundant interfaces. [...] One reason why I try to take what I can from Plan9 is that I profoundly mistrust systems that I cannot understand due to their size/bloat. And the more curious (perhaps not...) is that the trend is on security, while I fail to see how there can be any security when the software is not maintenable (from french : tenir en main i.e. be able to direct and keep in one's hand). There is a Borges short story about a library where one supposes that every text possible is kept, hence if the solution about the why is able to be expressed, the solution is for sure among the books. Problem : it is not sure that one reading it will for sure understand that this is the solution; and the time to read everything in order to find it exceeds largely one's life time. Consequence : this ideal solution is absolutely useless. Software nowadays seems like this : the time it takes to install and to start is time lost for working with (and this may amount to some time); the time to understand the thing or to debug it, is larger than an average life time, and is not possible for an average human. Security by threat (for example in free software): one can look at the code. Yes... Try to find a needle in a hay stack... And these beasts are Medusa: one look at the sources, and you're changed to stone by fear. There was also a comical story from a past artist about the improvements. The propaganda had made advertising for the perfect washing powder. Problem: when the next one came out, it begun difficult to explain that it was more than the previous perfection, unless the very same vendor admitted the swindle... So the advertising was explaining that by using the new improved washing powder, it was even able to wash as perfectly as the old one, even if one made knots with the clothes to hide the dirt inside (probably because the old washing powder was using its big blue eyes to see the dirt, while the new was using its nose). Conclusion: one had the same result as before with the improved version, except it took time to make the supplementary knots...and a week to try to undo them after they spent some hours in the water... Are there still human beings believing that progress is a function of chronology: the newer, the better? -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ http://www.renaissance-francaise.fr/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become
you know where to get it, etc...
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
sorry, i am unable to help with this specific problem. i only use the ms macros and use tex for anything more. however, just fyi: Further there is a licencing issue on (I think) Lucida fonts (which can be only used on p9 but not on p9p), the license for the lucida* fonts prohibits the creation of derivative fonts. redistribution is only allowed with plan9, which is as specific as the license gets. other forks of plan9 still include them. the license is at: /lib/font/bit/lucida/NOTICE some of it, however, was replaced by another set. the vera bitstream fonts. you can download the set that has been converted to plan9's font format here: http://www.bx.psu.edu/~schwartz/vera.tar.bz2 I believe that majority of font problems would now be solved differently; note that heirloom troff (contrary to groff) can read opentype. there is also ttf2subf which will convert true-type fonts to the plan9 format. /n/sources/contrib/quanstro/ttf2subf if you are using plan9port on a mac, the p9p font server will let you use your mac fonts as well.
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 03:30:37AM -0700, c...@9.squish.org wrote: sorry, i am unable to help with this specific problem. i only use the ms macros and use tex for anything more. Does anyone know if there has been any effort to use TeX and al. for the system typesetting i.e. the manpages and docs? (Translation of the troff macros to TeX ones etc.---not to mention that for TeX (kerTeX), it needs to be converted for utf-8 input; that's on my TODO list but I need to finish the rewrite of the T1 lib for dvips(1) first, and the display for METAFONT.) -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
first, I don't understand German (I am Czech), but I used google translate, hopefully getting the meaning. Sorry for that! Second, it's generally better (unless it's really personal or highly technical) to keep the discussion within the mailing list, since then other people can also contribute; I am far from an expert. Thus I have brought the discussion back to the list. Since nobody seems to use troff on P9 I regarded it as off-topic. http://9fans.net/archive/2011/11/106 Thank you! some more ... http://9fans.net/archive/?q=sykora+eqngo=Grep I can't believe that TeX should not produce better results, but thats really OT... I would say that groff is *much, much* more tested software. P9 troff is basically dead. Not dead ... lets call it freezed or so ... I'd rather say that p9p software is the source these days. Really? Ok, if I compare the sources it looks like this. Is this true for troff only or for p9p in general? So p9 troff posts may be better done on the p9p list? troff is a macro language. This I completely don't understand. If someone has much time and uses only low level requests than the word macro should be improper? What is not a macro language, i.e. what do you suggest to use instead? Page makeup by postprocessing text formatter output by Kernighan Wyk I also do not understand that. It is possible to write very good macro packages for troff. Also TeX can produce very good documents. Ok, this is OT again. Carsten
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
On 13 August 2014 12:57, Carsten Kunze carsten.ku...@arcor.de wrote: Since nobody seems to use troff on P9 I regarded it as off-topic. The traffic is low enough to discuss any matter related to p9(p) here, I believe. And it can be used as a back-reference in the future. http://9fans.net/archive/?q=sykora+eqngo=Grep I can't believe that TeX should not produce better results, but thats really OT... I don't understand what you mean. I'd rather say that p9p software is the source these days. Really? Ok, if I compare the sources it looks like this. Is this true for troff only or for p9p in general? So p9 troff posts may be better done on the p9p list? I think whoever uses p9p reads this list. I personally even don't know there is a special p9p list. troff is a macro language. This I completely don't understand. If someone has much time and uses only low level requests than the word macro should be improper? What is not a macro language, i.e. what do you suggest to use instead? Page makeup by postprocessing text formatter output by Kernighan Wyk I also do not understand that. It is possible to write very good macro packages for troff. Also TeX can produce very good documents. Ok, this is OT again. Just read the document. And it is not only about producing good documents meaning good-looking. It's about scalability and readability, too. Nobody would tell you LaTeX is readable. PlainTeX is, but by itself, it doesn't know much (like plain troff). Twisting a macro language around is often difficult, has many pitfalls, may be difficult to debug, and if it grows beyond a certain level, it collapses. That's at least what I think. Ruda
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
http://9fans.net/archive/?q=sykora+eqngo=Grep I can't believe that TeX should not produce better results, but thats really OT... I don't understand what you mean. I refer to http://9fans.net/archive/2011/12/113. I would expect TeX to produce the best math results. But this should not be discussed here. Just read the document. And it is not only about producing good documents meaning good-looking. It's about scalability and readability, too. Nobody would tell you LaTeX is readable. PlainTeX is, but by itself, it doesn't know much (like plain troff). I would completely disagree :) LaTeX is very good readable (IMO better than e.g. troff -ms), PlainTeX is totally unreadable to me (I'v used it for a longer time.) Ok, lets close this thread for now. I look at your posts regarding the brackets and for the root sign problem, that may take some time. Cheers, Carsten
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
Does anyone know if there has been any effort to use TeX and al. for the system typesetting i.e. the manpages and docs? (Translation of the troff macros to TeX ones etc.---not to mention that for TeX (kerTeX), it needs to be converted for utf-8 input; that's on my TODO list but I need to finish the rewrite of the T1 lib for dvips(1) first, and the display for METAFONT.) Is this really necessary for the system documentation? AFAIK P9 nroff/troff can handle utf-8. If there are problems with *roff they should be solved. *roff is a Bell Labs documentation system--it should be used for P9--IMO.
[9fans] The developers of Plan9 think there was no point in coding in binary code three years ago as they did or make the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia?
What are the programming languages that were used to develop the Plan9? Probably the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia continue teaching coding in binary code, ie, machine language. I say this because about three years ago the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia continued teaching coding in binary code, ie, machine language. The Riga Technical University and University of Latvia made based projects in Plan9 using coding in binary code? The developers of Plan9 think there was no point in coding in binary code three years ago as they did or make the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia?
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
On 13 August 2014 14:16, Carsten Kunze carsten.ku...@arcor.de wrote: http://9fans.net/archive/?q=sykora+eqngo=Grep I can't believe that TeX should not produce better results, but thats really OT... I don't understand what you mean. I refer to http://9fans.net/archive/2011/12/113. I would expect TeX to produce the best math results. But this should not be discussed here. Still I don't get what you mean. In that message we say 1) quality of TeX typesetting is better, 2) the way the equation is written (the syntax) in eqn feels better to me. And it is not only about producing good documents meaning good-looking. It's about scalability and readability, too. Nobody would tell you LaTeX is readable. PlainTeX is, but by itself, it doesn't know much (like plain troff). I would completely disagree :) LaTeX is very good readable (IMO better than e.g. troff -ms), PlainTeX is totally unreadable to me (I'v used it for a longer time.) Just to be sure. I don't mean readability of documents to be typeset. I mean the source code of the whole system. I.e., in the case of LaTeX, the readability/understanding/hackability of the macros' definitions. R
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
Still I don't get what you mean. In that message we say 1) quality of TeX typesetting is better, 2) the way the equation is written (the syntax) in eqn feels better to me. Ok, I got that wrong. Just to be sure. I don't mean readability of documents to be typeset. I mean the source code of the whole system. I.e., in the case of LaTeX, the readability/understanding/hackability of the macros' definitions. I got that wrong too... And thank you for the advice regarding gv(1) and printed output. I had not expected a difference there. With printed output I have no errors with DWB (except the TAB). (With P9P there is still the root sign shift.) Carsten
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 02:22:00PM +0200, Carsten Kunze wrote: Is this really necessary for the system documentation? AFAIK P9 nroff/troff can handle utf-8. If there are problems with *roff they should be solved. *roff is a Bell Labs documentation system--it should be used for P9--IMO. IMO, the advantages are multiple: 1) TeX is a complete system: not only the layout engine, but the means to draw the fonts. METAFONT is also a rasterizer engine. This means that the system can be self-sufficient allowing to render the result without resorting to huge external PS dependencies; 2) TeX programs (for the D.E.K. parts) are fully documented and fully debugged. Before, I thought that using Pascal as the programming language was a problem (I never managed to like Pascal). But having work for kerTeX with the WEB programs, I understand now that this is not really Pascal, but some Algol. The translation from _this_ Pascal to C is under control, so the programming language is not a problem after all and probably prevents lots of people from tempering with it: TeX is stable; 3) The typesetting system is not my aim. My aim is to use it as a mean for producing documentation about something else. Having several languages to learn for, in fact, doing the same thing while it has been recognized that for math, TeX is an improvement, is suboptimal; 4) TeX and al. and the original Web-to-C were not bundled under GPL. Now, with kerTeX, the bundle is not anymore with GPL (and for systems, whether Plan9 or the *BSD, since what I did use was under public licence, and what is added is mine, I could re-licence my contributions to the very licence of the systems). Other troff implementations are whether under GPL, or the improvements were made taking from TeX (Heirloom); 5) With kerTeX, we are back with the needle only and not the whole hay stack and the whole core thing is really, really small. Including fonts. -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ http://www.renaissance-francaise.fr/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 03:13:38PM +0200, Rudolf Sykora wrote: Just to be sure. I don't mean readability of documents to be typeset. I mean the source code of the whole system. I.e., in the case of LaTeX, the readability/understanding/hackability of the macros' definitions. And this links to another thread: the base plainTeX system, with fonts, is 8Mo; with the AMS this may reach 16Mo. With LaTeX and al. (I don't use, but others do and I need to test somewhat), the whole thing reach 250Mo. PlainTeX is not a litteracy exercice, sure, but is documented and small. And riding piggyback on plainTeX, I'm mainly covering my needs. And I decided to use plainTeX whan I saw that there were less pages, written by the author: D.E. Knuth to explain fully how to use and program TeX, than pages trying partly to explain how to use LaTeX without attempting to explain how TeX was working underneath. And if one doesn't understand TeX, one is unlikely to even have a clue about why the LaTeX macros do not do what one supposed them to do... -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ http://www.renaissance-francaise.fr/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] The developers of Plan9 think there was no point in coding in binary code three years ago as they did or make the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia?
Quoting françai s romaper...@gmail.com: What are the programming languages that were used to develop the Plan9? Probably the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia continue teaching coding in binary code, ie, machine language. I say this because about three years ago the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia continued teaching coding in binary code, ie, machine language. The Riga Technical University and University of Latvia made based projects in Plan9 using coding in binary code? The developers of Plan9 think there was no point in coding in binary code three years ago as they did or make the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia? Apparently. khm
Re: [9fans] The developers of Plan9 think there was no point in coding in binary code three years ago as they did or make the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia?
I say this because about three years ago the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia continued teaching coding in binary code, ie, machine language. that's great! very vew people understand how any machine really works. it might not be something one can readily apply to another system, but it will give you insights that can be reused in a lot of situation. The Riga Technical University and University of Latvia made based projects in Plan9 using coding in binary code? The developers of Plan9 think there was no point in coding in binary code three years ago as they did or make the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia? Apparently. i think this is a false choice. guessing here, i would imagine that there was no advantage to using machine language seen with respect to the labs' goals. this doesn't pass judgement on programming in machine language. personally, i find it tedious with the machines i've had access to, but more experienced programmers than i remember a day when it was straightforward to code in octal. seymore cray programmed this way. - erik
Re: [9fans] The developers of Plan9 think there was no point in coding in binary code three years ago as they did or make the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia?
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 11:06:23AM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote: I say this because about three years ago the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia continued teaching coding in binary code, ie, machine language. that's great! very vew people understand how any machine really works. it might not be something one can readily apply to another system, but it will give you insights that can be reused in a lot of situation. D.E. Knuth has kept a machine language (MIX, and MMIX for the new version) to explain the algorithm in TAOCP. And there are some interviews of him explaining why. Since even schools should teach the principles and not the particular means (why and what has to be done and not how to do it precisely with the software or language du jour), it is not bad per se. If a real language has to be used, I don't understand why C seemed to have never caught up. Because it is high level for control and expression, and low level, near the machine, so it seems the best compromise. I really started to program a minimum correctly once I understood at least roughly how the machine and the system were working. Before... -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ http://www.renaissance-francaise.fr/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become
Are there still human beings believing that progress is a function of chronology: the newer, the better? I think there are many who believe that everything they find stressful in the present will be taken care of in the next technological iteration. Lucio.
Re: [9fans] The developers of Plan9 think there was no point in coding in binary code three years ago as they did or make the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia?
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 09:47:03 -0300 françai s romaper...@gmail.com wrote: What are the programming languages that were used to develop the Plan9? A dialect of C. The source code is in /sys/src. Probably the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia continue teaching coding in binary code, ie, machine language. I say this because about three years ago the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia continued teaching coding in binary code, ie, machine language. The Riga Technical University and University of Latvia made based projects in Plan9 using coding in binary code? The developers of Plan9 think there was no point in coding in binary code three years ago as they did or make the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia? Is there a reason Riga Technical University and University of Latvia are mentioned in every sentence? What exactly is the purpose of this e-mail? Advertising? Fishing? Is this an automated shotgun e-mail designed to extract some information from the 'Net? An AI test? -- Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih. All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them. -- You don't need an AI for a robot uprising. Humans will do just fine. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
I'd rather say that p9p software is the source these days. I wouldn't agree, p9p is a fork, much stuff gets ported both ways, though some changes may have been missed. I still use troff and tbl on plan9, occasionally I use eqn, last week for the first time in ages. I know there are some bugs but I find it much easier to generate a simple document in troff than with MS Word, its a metter of what you are used to. I'am sure latex is capable of genatiing better documents, but i have never had the need to learn it so I don't use that. Troff is good enough for what I need. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
I still use troff and tbl on plan9, occasionally I use eqn, last week for the first time in ages. What are the bugs in tbl you found? (I think it had been you who mentioned it.) I know there are some bugs but I find it much easier to generate a simple document in troff than with MS Word, its a metter of what you are used to. You can be sure MS word has bugs too :-) I'am sure latex is capable of genatiing better documents, but i have never had the need to learn it so I don't use that. Troff is good enough for what I need. Good opinion!
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
What are the bugs in tbl you found? Mmm, I was worried you might ask that. I have an old document that used to layout incorrectly, however I just tried it and it is now fine - I wonder if the bug has been fixed ☺ The problem I had was a small - 1/23 inch, misalignment of vertical edges of table bounding boxes. This is quite obvious as the vertical like sproject beyond the bottom edge of the table and there is a gap between the top and the sides. This bug was content dependent but as I said it now seems fine. I will dig through my venti and see if I can find an old copy which exhibits the problem... -Steve
Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)
Mmm, I was worried you might ask that. :-) I will dig through my venti and see if I can find an old copy which exhibits the problem... Ok. If possible the lines between .TS/.TE to reproduce it (you may change the text if its confidential). --Carsten
Re: [9fans] chem preprocessor
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Jacob Todd jaketodd...@gmail.com wrote: BWK wrote a preprocessor for troff for drawing chemical structures long ago. I've ported it to plan 9 with just a small changes. If you would like to try it out just `9fs busybeingbrutal.org`, it's chem.tbz. I have only tested the examples. Tried a few examples and it works for me, very nice. Thank you. - cherry
