[abcusers] re re : slurs and ties
> It is just simply
>incorrect to not make the normal distinction between ties and
slurs in any
>form of musical notation (which does include ABC), and, worst of
all,
>ultimately confusing to users if improper usage is allowed. Ties
and slurs
>are not the same thing, nor are they intended to be, nor were
they ever
>intended to be so far as I know. To not make the correct
distinction is
>just simply unnecessary, in my opinion, and will continue to
promote
>sloppy, or lazy, or ignorant, or individualistic, or
non-standard, or what
>ever you want to call it, practices in writing ABC.
we can draw a parallel with the > : in fact we don't need this
symbol, instead of A > A there is the A3/2 A/ notation but it's
simplier to use.
I don't think people, like me or John Chamber, who want in this
case a more tolerant standard wish to confuse pple with the
notions of slurs and ties. For example B and G *can't*
(physically, in acoustic) be tied, can they ? So we could say this
is just a convention to notate slur *both* with - and (). That
doesn't mean slurs becomes ties.
And a last remark : in french we only use one word for the two :
it is called "liaison", we would not confuse the two. But I've
just read in a musical theory that there was a difference of
interpretation for slurs according as the slur concerns only two
notes, or several notes : it is said for two slured notes which
are at a different length, the 1st one should be emphasized, i.e.
: (c2B) z/ d/ (d2c) z/e/ | (e2d) /.../
so it's not so illogical to use - to write a slur/tie ("liaison")
between 2 notes (whatever they are and whatever that particular
slur/tie means) and brackets for slur between several notes (more
than 2 at least). For ties between more than 2 notes like
A3-A2-|A2 I don't find it really logical to allow (A3 A2 |A2), but
why not ?
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Re: [abcusers] Defining the non-note letters
John Chambers wrote: >As I (sorta) understand the suggestions, they amount to defining a >list of standard musical terms, possibly in the !...! form. This >would give us a list of things like !fermata!, !mf!, !sfz!, !trill!, >!roll!, and so on. These could be used, but the result would be >cluttered and not very readable. So then we define the macros as >something like: > >m: T !trill! >m: ~ !roll! >m: H !fermata! Here we go again. Once more I will try to explain the difference between redefinable symbols and macros. They are not the same. Macros substitute one piece of text for another, while redefinable symbols change the binding between the finite set of characters 'H'..'Z' and a (potentially) infinite set of musical symbols. Macros can be implemented in a preprocessor (or a separate program), redefinable symbols can't be, because you have to write the code to draw the new symbol. If your program doesn't know how to draw an inverted fermata, no amount of text substitution in the abc input is going to persuade it to do that. So forget macros for the moment - they are not what you need here. Suppose I want to add a new symbol to the list which my program supports. I'm doing guitar transcriptions and I need an arpeggio symbol. First I have to write the necessary code to draw a vertical jagged line to the left of a chord. Then I have to give it a name: "arpeggio". To invoke it from the abc I then have to define one of the 19 letters which the standard provides for this purpose to mean "arpeggio" like this: U: R = arpeggio and in the abc I can write R[CEG], and have the chord drawn in the staff display with an arpeggio symbol before it. The default meaning for R is a medium length phrase mark, so a user who wanted to use both of these symbols in the same music would have to use a different letter for the purpose, or define another letter to mean medium phrase mark. Of course you could go on to define a macro which would substitute the symbol R for the word arpeggio, or if you insist !arpeggio!, and then write !arpeggio![CEG] in the abc, but then you've lost all compatibility with the existing standard and cluttered up the abc by adding nine extra characters to invoke a single musical symbol. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Fingering for instruments... (was : To tell the dancer from the dance)
> abcm2ps allows > !0!C!1!D !2!E!3!F !4!G!5!A !+!B c > to display nice numbers above staff and > the w: field to display them below... The above looks pretty hideous and if you put the fingerings in w:, where do you put the words? Laurie To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Fingering for instruments... (was : To tell the dancer from the dance)
> I've just been transcribing some tunes from >Ryan's/Coles for John Chambers' project. These include fingering for the >fiddle on some notes. I had to use guitar chords to stick this in, and, to >be charitable, it looks awful. The numbers are too far from the notes, >and often conflict with other markings on the same notes. abcm2ps allows !0!C!1!D !2!E!3!F !4!G!5!A !+!B c to display nice numbers above staff and the w: field to display them below... simple, easy, efficient... ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] re : slurs and ties
>> | brackets for slurs when it's possible. If not (if it may confuse) >> | I'll use - instead. >> >> In any case, most musicians don't consider them to be different. > >This one does. :-) Some folk musicians may not consider them to be >different, but I'd argue that most classical musicians do. Oh, didn't I say that I do only the difference when it comes to copy written partitions to abc format ? I don't want to "betray" the original partition, or at least to loose the fewer informations so I write them. But when I play I don't bother longer with slurs or ties... :) For example in some partitions there is no slurs noted but the notes are obviously legato (especially on fiddle), but most of the time I don't read if there is slurs, one can feel is they are needed or not. And last but not least, it's faster to slur more than 2 notes than to tie them : I'd never think to write for example : c2-B-B-| G-B-F-B | instead of (c2B B | G B F B) | ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Defining the non-note letters
John Walsh writes: | Bryan Creer writes: | | >Well, it didn't take much figuring since that is what I stated explicitly but | >it is the public aspect of abc that I was referring to. I'm not sure why you | >consider this mislistthropic. That's a great word. | This brings up a problem I've noticed in some of the abc2ps | clones, tho it's probably more general: some of the characters H--Z are | permanently bound to notation---J to a slide, H to a fermata, S to a | segno, P to a pralltriller... (The first three don't bother me, since I | use the same characters for the same things, but the fourth does, since I | don't.) According to the standard, these characters are supposed to be | free, but they are rapidly being taken up. I have no real quarrel with | this---I use most of the characters the same way myself, and I'm glad for | the extra notation---*as long as there is a way to turn it off*. (!) Or | even better, to redefine the binding. It could be an entry in the fmt | file, for instance. In other applications, it could be in preferences. | Or...it could even be a formal part of abc... Well, as one of the culprits who cloned abc2ps, I've been thinking about this problem, too. We've had a few discussions around the topic in the past. Maybe it's time for another one. I'm seriously considering implementing at least the simplest "macro" case, i.e., the string substituion. A bit of digging around in the list's archives turned up a number of different proposals for the syntax. It'd be useful if we could get some sort of agreement on what the simple case looks like. As I (sorta) understand the suggestions, they amount to defining a list of standard musical terms, possibly in the !...! form. This would give us a list of things like !fermata!, !mf!, !sfz!, !trill!, !roll!, and so on. These could be used, but the result would be cluttered and not very readable. So then we define the macros as something like: m: T !trill! m: ~ !roll! m: H !fermata! and then the letter T stands for a trill. With abc2ps, this would be one of the default definitions, since these symbols are currently what is hard-coded for these ornaments. Implementing this as a pass before parsing a line would be simple. I could have just sat down and done it. But I thought maybe it would be useful to get the usual flame war started, to see whether there's any consensus on exactly what the syntax should be. I have noticed that some people object to the !...! notation, while others seem to think it's a clever idea. I mostly view it as not ideal but usable. It is in minimal conflict with abc2win's use of !, but I've found experimentally that it's not hard to separate the two. The jcabc2ps behind my tune finder does this, and it seems fairly successful. It also accepts the !...! notation, but treats it as a variant of "...", though the positioning isn't all that great yet. There's also the more general topic of parameterized macros, but that seems to be a discussion killer. I'd have to admit that the previous discussions of the topic have rapidly lost me. There isn't the slightest chance that I could implement them from the descriptions that I've read. So I intend to "file" any replies that wander off in this direction, and read only the ones that deal with the simple case. If we could get that working, a lot of users would applaud ... To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: To tell the dancer from the dance
Bryan Creer writes: >Well, it didn't take much figuring since that is what I stated explicitly but >it is the public aspect of abc that I was referring to. I'm not sure why you >consider this mislistthropic. > I don't at all---I was just referring to your statement that: > There was no intention of sarcasm >but perhaps my dealings with this list have left me a little bitter and >twisted. > > ...What I don't want is to be told "You can't use >character such-and-such in your new abc extension, even though it would be of >enormous benefit to all users, because I'm already using it to indicate >forked F on the oboe." (It's a slightly different pitch so it is musically >relevant.) > This brings up a problem I've noticed in some of the abc2ps clones, tho it's probably more general: some of the characters H--Z are permanently bound to notation---J to a slide, H to a fermata, S to a segno, P to a pralltriller... (The first three don't bother me, since I use the same characters for the same things, but the fourth does, since I don't.) According to the standard, these characters are supposed to be free, but they are rapidly being taken up. I have no real quarrel with this---I use most of the characters the same way myself, and I'm glad for the extra notation---*as long as there is a way to turn it off*. (!) Or even better, to redefine the binding. It could be an entry in the fmt file, for instance. In other applications, it could be in preferences. Or...it could even be a formal part of abc... Cheers, John Walsh To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
James Allwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What ">" and "<" gives you in abc2midi is a notation for tunes in > 6/8 masquerading as tunes in 4/4. This covers hornpipes and probably > strathspays (though I can't tell since I don't get to hear very many > of those). This is not a mistake. Yes it is, as far as strathspeys are concerned. Many people play »>« stuff in strathspeys tending towards 7:1 rather than 3:1 (that is, »A>A« sounds like »A>>A« rather than »(3A2A«) but very few people if any consider strathspeys pseudo-12/8. The »>« notation is so useful for strathspeys, many of which consist of nothing but »X>Y« and »X« (and »<«) is just what the doctor ordered. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caveat: untested, so there may be typos, or even thoughtos. -- Donald Arseneau To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re: The new BarFly
Phil Sauve wrote: >2. When I replay a tune in the split screen mode, the music play >always goes back to the first tune entered and then I have to >manualy go to the tune I want repeated. Phil Taylor wrote: >When you play a tune in BarFly, the tune which plays is the one >where the text insertion point is located. If you move the >insertion point yourself you may find a different tune plays >than the one whose music is on display. Is that what's happening >here? Phil Sauve wrote: >As far as the second problem, your advice did solve it. If I am not mistaken, this is slightly different behavior from previous versions of BarFly. When a tune is selected for display/play in split screen mode, the insertion point doesn't move to that tune, so after playing it once, a second attempt to play it will jump back to the (different) tune where the insertion point is. This is usually the first tune in the file because when you first open a file, that is where the insertion point is. It is very disconcerting, and I never noticed it happening in previous versions (which I no longer have for experimenting). __ /\/\/\/\ <__> | | | | | David Barnert <__> | | | | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <__> | | | | | Albany, N.Y. <__> \/\/\/\/ Ventilator Concertina Bellows Bellows (Vocation) (Avocation) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re: To tell the dancer from the dance
John Walsh - >One basis of misunderstanding here may be an assumption that >instrument-specific notation must be carved in stone in the language--as >u and v for upbow and downbow are now, for instance. It doesn't. (It >can't, really, for abc doesn't have the resources. In my own case, I have >to invent notation which would be quite useless to almost anyone else, and >I certainly don't want to saddle others with it.) I agree wholeheartedly. What I don't want is to be told "You can't use character such-and-such in your new abc extension, even though it would be of enormous benefit to all users, because I'm already using it to indicate forked F on the oboe." (It's a slightly different pitch so it is musically relevant.) I think a distinction has to be made between private and public abc. If you are just using abc as an input format for your own typesetting software, then obviously you can do what you like. It doesn't affect anybody else. If you are exchanging tunes with a group of people with the same specialist interest, again, no problem. as long as you've all got access to software that will handle it. The problem comes when you go public and try to distribute tunes to a wider audience. Then I think restrictions should apply. >I figured you'd shown that that line of reasoning led to >the outlawing of instrument-specific notation in abc. Well, it didn't take much figuring since that is what I stated explicitly but it is the public aspect of abc that I was referring to. I'm not sure why you consider this mislistthropic. I want to be able to exchange tunes with everybody, regardless of what instrument they play or what software they are using. I love you all! Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
I've been trying to find a piece of music where F>F2 actually would make sense. In the end I had to write one myself. Except for the V: header fields - which are idiomatic for BarFly - this should be pretty straight forward ABC. There are a few nasty little details here, though, so maybe it'd be suitable as a test tune for an abc parser. ;-) Enjoy Frank http://www.musicaviva.com --- X:1 T:none C:Frank Nordberg V:1 program 1 64 V:2 program 1 25 transpose -12 M:10/16 L:1/8 Q:5/16=100 K:Flyd _G V:1 z>z2 z>z2|:z>z2 z>z2|F>F2 F2FE/ F3/-F/B/-| V:2 .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|:.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)| % V:1 B>AG < FE/F/|G>G2 G2BG/ F>AD/|[1((3C/D/Cz2:| V:2 .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|[1.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/):| % V:1 [2((3C/D/C(F/G//A//B//||c3/-c- c3/-c)|(cdcAB)|c3/-c- c3/-c| V:2 [2.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)||.G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|\ .G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|.G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)| % V:1 (cdcAB)|d(c/(3d/c/B/ A->A2-|[M:5/16]A> (3FD/C/|[M:10/16]B,>DC/ B,3/-B,-|B,)>z2 z>z2|| V:2 .G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|.G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|\ [M:5/16].G,G/(C/B,/)|[M:10/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)| --- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
