Re: [abcusers] AlphabetSoup output data structures
All this is pretty much irrelevant. Within a polyphonic voice, notes are not necessarily related to other simultaneous notes by any of start time, end time or duration, therefore trying to put more than one pitch on a note object is not a solution. At 02:08 AM 5/13/04, you wrote: Bernard Hill writes: | In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Neil | Jennings [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes | Or, perhaps, by having a note object contain a list of (zero or | more) pitch objects rather than just one pitch value. A noteobject | with a duration and no pitch objects would, of course, be a rest. | | The problem with this is that the duration would be the same for all | notes within the object | | That's a standard rule of music. You can't put black and white notes on | the same stem for instance. Actually, this isn't a rule at all. Music printers routinely put white and black note heads on the same stem. They also put dots after some of the note heads and not others. You see this all the time in keyboard and guitar music, where damping individual notes in a chord is fairly easy. You also see it in choral music, where one voice can continue after others stop. The problem is that standard staff notation has some serious limitations on what note lengths can be combined on a single stem. They all have to have the same number of flags, for instance. But this isn't really a rule; it's just a defect in the physical representation. It's also fairly common to have a (dotted) whole note aligned vertically with notes on a stem, though there are some obvious limitations on where you can do this. Also, it's fairly common to have some (but not necessarily all) of the notes on a stem have ties to a continuation note. ABC has a somewhat more general representation of a chord of notes, since each note can have an arbitrary length. But it has some other limitations that aren't present in staff notation. For example, in guitar (and some keyboard) music, you'll see notes with dangling ties that don't lead to another note. This means let it ring, which can be done on those instruments. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] AlphabetSoup output data structures
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Bernard Hill writes: | In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Neil | Jennings [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes | Or, perhaps, by having a note object contain a list of (zero or | more) pitch objects rather than just one pitch value. A noteobject | with a duration and no pitch objects would, of course, be a rest. | | The problem with this is that the duration would be the same for all | notes within the object | | That's a standard rule of music. You can't put black and white notes on | the same stem for instance. Actually, this isn't a rule at all. Music printers routinely put white and black note heads on the same stem. They also put dots after some of the note heads and not others. You see this all the time in keyboard and guitar music, where damping individual notes in a chord is fairly easy. You also see it in choral music, where one voice can continue after others stop. You are mistaken. I quote Gardner Read Music Notation page 69 Intervals (involving two note heads) or chords (three or more note heads) may use a single stem to join all the notes as a unit provided they are of equal value. There is much more on the placement of the stems in more complicated examples showing the fundamental avoidance of different notes length on the same stem. Just how would you indicate a crotchet (quarter) note starting at the same time as a quaver (8th) on the same stem? If you require different note lengths to be started simultaneously then you cannot use one stem, and normal practice is to have one with stems up and one with stems down. If there are 3 such then 3 stems are required, the 3rd being offset a small distance from the other two. This is the practice in choral music or any music where two parts share one stave. The problem is that standard staff notation has some serious limitations on what note lengths can be combined on a single stem. They all have to have the same number of flags, for instance. But this isn't really a rule; it's just a defect in the physical representation. I have a number of books which indicate that it's a rule. I merely chose the most popular to quote from. It's also fairly common to have a (dotted) whole note aligned vertically with notes on a stem, though there are some obvious limitations on where you can do this. Since it doesn't have a stem the question doesn't arise. But if it were in the middle of a chord of say quarter notes then it would be offset slightly to give a gap between the whole note and the others. Also, it's fairly common to have some (but not necessarily all) of the notes on a stem have ties to a continuation note. True. I have no problem with that. ABC has a somewhat more general representation of a chord of notes, since each note can have an arbitrary length. But it has some other limitations that aren't present in staff notation. For example, in guitar (and some keyboard) music, you'll see notes with dangling ties that don't lead to another note. This means let it ring, which can be done on those instruments. Again, I've no problems with that. -- Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] AlphabetSoup output data structures
Bernard Hill writes: | In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Chambers | [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes | Bernard Hill writes: | | That's a standard rule of music. You can't put black and white notes on | | the same stem for instance. | | Actually, this isn't a rule at all. Music printers routinely put | white and black note heads on the same stem. They also put dots after | some of the note heads and not others. You see this all the time in | keyboard and guitar music, where damping individual notes in a chord | is fairly easy. You also see it in choral music, where one voice can | continue after others stop. | | You are mistaken. I quote Gardner Read Music Notation page 69 | Intervals (involving two note heads) or chords (three or more note | heads) may use a single stem to join all the notes as a unit provided | they are of equal value. Actually, Gardner Read is the one who's mistaken here. ;-) Musicians can and do play chords on several instruments with notes terminating at different times. Publishers can and do print music with note heads of different lengths on the same stem. Mr. Read can't prevent either of these practices. It's not contrary to law in any country that I know of, and there's no way to prosecute a musician or publisher who commits such acts of musical disobedience. | Just how would you indicate a crotchet (quarter) note starting at the | same time as a quaver (8th) on the same stem? You can't. That's why I said that there were defect in the physical representation in traditional staff notation. But you can put a white and black note head on the same stem, and you can put dots after some but not all of the note heads. In keyboard and guitar music, this isn't at all unusual. I'd agree that there is usually a better way to write it, but this doesn't have much effect on the publisher of the page in front of me. | If you require different note lengths to be started simultaneously then | you cannot use one stem, and normal practice is to have one with stems | up and one with stems down. If there are 3 such then 3 stems are | required, the 3rd being offset a small distance from the other two. This is another solution to the notational problems. Sometimes it works well, though it's easy to construct cases where the result is quite unreadable. Many guitarists could demo such cases with a few seconds thought. I'd say that this is usually the better solution, but again that isn't going to convince a publisher who has never heard of me. | I have a number of books which indicate that it's a rule. I merely chose | the most popular to quote from. Yeah, well, you can print anything in a book. What that really says is what the author(s) though was acceptable musical practice. But I'd bet that few music publishers would enforce such rules. It makes little sense to tell authors or customers that you won't print representations of some music because you think that such music is illegal. They'll just give you a funny look. | It's also fairly common to have a (dotted) whole note aligned | vertically with notes on a stem, though there are some obvious | limitations on where you can do this. | | Since it doesn't have a stem the question doesn't arise. But if it were | in the middle of a chord of say quarter notes then it would be offset | slightly to give a gap between the whole note and the others. Indeed. Then you run into the problems of getting the printing done accurately enough that what was intended is clear. The guys who do the engraving have a way of correcting such obvious errors as not attaching a note head to the stem. Printing artifacts can also have interesting effects on what comes out on the page. | Also, it's fairly common to have some (but not necessarily all) of | the notes on a stem have ties to a continuation note. | | True. I have no problem with that. Indeed, that's often a better solution than attempting to put different note heads on the same stem. Successive chords, each missing one of the notes in the previous chords, and ties connecting the held notes. It looks more cluttered, but it's probably clearer and more readable. | ABC has a somewhat more general representation of a chord of notes, | since each note can have an arbitrary length. But it has some other | limitations that aren't present in staff notation. For example, in | guitar (and some keyboard) music, you'll see notes with dangling | ties that don't lead to another note. This means let it ring, which | can be done on those instruments. | | Again, I've no problems with that. But how do you represent it in ABC? I wonder if it might be useful to introduce a rule to the effect that if a note is followed by '-' but there's no matching note in the next chord, then the tie is dangling. Of course, this would clash with the not-unusual practice of using '-' rather than parens to get a
Re: [abcusers] AlphabetSoup output data structures
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Bernard Hill writes: | In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Chambers | [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes | Bernard Hill writes: | | That's a standard rule of music. You can't put black and white notes on | | the same stem for instance. | | Actually, this isn't a rule at all. Music printers routinely put | white and black note heads on the same stem. They also put dots after | some of the note heads and not others. You see this all the time in | keyboard and guitar music, where damping individual notes in a chord | is fairly easy. You also see it in choral music, where one voice can | continue after others stop. | | You are mistaken. I quote Gardner Read Music Notation page 69 | Intervals (involving two note heads) or chords (three or more note | heads) may use a single stem to join all the notes as a unit provided | they are of equal value. Actually, Gardner Read is the one who's mistaken here. ;-) Musicians can and do play chords on several instruments with notes terminating at different times. Of course! But they are not notated on the same stem! They have stems up and stems down when they are different lengths. Publishers can and do print music with note heads of different lengths on the same stem. Mr. Read can't prevent either of these practices. It's not contrary to law in any country that I know of, and there's no way to prosecute a musician or publisher who commits such acts of musical disobedience. We are talking rules, not laws. | Just how would you indicate a crotchet (quarter) note starting at the | same time as a quaver (8th) on the same stem? You can't. That's why I said that there were defect in the physical representation in traditional staff notation. But you can put a white and black note head on the same stem, and you can put dots after some but not all of the note heads. In keyboard and guitar music, this isn't at all unusual. I'd agree that there is usually a better way to write it, but this doesn't have much effect on the publisher of the page in front of me. All I can say is that I have only ever seen one example of that. (Beethoven 5th symphony, last movt, violins have a 4-note chord in which the top is a half note. It is notated that way because to make the black notes stem down would imply a divisi for that note) | If you require different note lengths to be started simultaneously then | you cannot use one stem, and normal practice is to have one with stems | up and one with stems down. If there are 3 such then 3 stems are | required, the 3rd being offset a small distance from the other two. This is another solution to the notational problems. Sometimes it works well, though it's easy to construct cases where the result is quite unreadable. Many guitarists could demo such cases with a few seconds thought. I'd say that this is usually the better solution, but again that isn't going to convince a publisher who has never heard of me. | I have a number of books which indicate that it's a rule. I merely chose | the most popular to quote from. Yeah, well, you can print anything in a book. What that really says is what the author(s) though was acceptable musical practice. But I'd bet that few music publishers would enforce such rules. It makes little sense to tell authors or customers that you won't print representations of some music because you think that such music is illegal. They'll just give you a funny look. The best book is Kurt Stone, Music Notation in the 20th century because (he claims) it's been compiled with the help of the main publishers and writers of music. | It's also fairly common to have a (dotted) whole note aligned | vertically with notes on a stem, though there are some obvious | limitations on where you can do this. | | Since it doesn't have a stem the question doesn't arise. But if it were | in the middle of a chord of say quarter notes then it would be offset | slightly to give a gap between the whole note and the others. Indeed. Then you run into the problems of getting the printing done accurately enough that what was intended is clear. The guys who do the engraving have a way of correcting such obvious errors as not attaching a note head to the stem. Printing artifacts can also have interesting effects on what comes out on the page. | Also, it's fairly common to have some (but not necessarily all) of | the notes on a stem have ties to a continuation note. | | True. I have no problem with that. Indeed, that's often a better solution than attempting to put different note heads on the same stem. Yes, that's a technique I would use if I had a piano chord which was to be released gradually a note at a time from the bottom end, say. Successive chords, each missing one of the notes in the previous chords, and ties connecting the held notes. It looks more cluttered, but it's probably
