Re: [abcusers] modes (again)
Here's a slightly improved version of the Key-Signature-Scoring mode graph or table now on my website. The numerical assignments (convenient but not unique) of key, signature, and mode) are for algebraic use in a computer, so you can ignore them when scoring or analyzing (descoring?) a tune by hand (eyeball that is). http://www.erols.com/olsonw/SFMODE.GIF";> Click A little counting (automated via the search and display program) of the 6601 tunes coded in the file COMBCODE.TXT on my website, heavily slanted towards 18th and 19th century Irish tunes, shows that a little over half of them (52%) are tune mode NOT EQUAL to scoring mode. Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or just http://www.erols.com/olsonw";> Click Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] modes (again)
Laurie (ukonline) wrote: > > Laurie>Sure, but I've seen quite a few tunes with K:D and then every > single C in the piece naturalised. In those cases invariably the > description > is half right - the tonic D is right, but the mode is wrong. > > Eric> so does it means the right notation was to write K:Dm ? > > Probably K:Ddor > > Dm tends to acquire ^C as a leading note. > > Laurie > > To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: >http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html The scoring mode is ionian/major. The tune mode is mixolydian. Scoring and tune modes are often the same, but not by any means always the same. In some works scoring modes are either ionian/major or aeolian/minor, and 'accidentals' are used in the tune to correct to proper tune mode (as in the case here where the naturals on all of the Cs corrects ionian to mixolydian). If there were only the one sharp on the key signature (no sharp on C), then the mode would be straightforward mixolydian to start with. There's a graph of the key - signature - scoring mode relationship on my website which you can download or print out from your browser. >From it slowpokes can find the proper key - signature- scoring mode combination on it in about 5 seconds. Bruce Olson Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or just http://www.erols.com/olsonw";> Click Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] modes (again)
Laurie>Sure, but I've seen quite a few tunes with K:D and then every single C in the piece naturalised. In those cases invariably the description is half right - the tonic D is right, but the mode is wrong. Eric> so does it means the right notation was to write K:Dm ? Probably K:Ddor Dm tends to acquire ^C as a leading note. Laurie To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] modes (again)
On Thu, 2002-06-27 at 17:59, Forgeot Eric wrote:
> >| ... It was already too late to change when I first mentioned
> it.
>
> Since it's not possible to add a new field dedicated to mode, I
> thought it was possible to write 2 K: fields in a tune, if
> necessary : the first one for the signature, and the second one to
> *precise* the mode used, so clever applications or users could
> find out what is mode and what is the signature (and the others
> will have at least something to find the right key from and play
> the right accidentals). So that way I guess no application would
> be fooled by a "new standard".
Is it possible to duplicate the K: field this way to accommodate two
values? I think I've seen it done with the T: field, when a tune has
more than one title, but don't recall seeing any of the other header
fields used that way (and for obvious reasons you wouldn't do it with
X:.)
> 1)
> >Sure, but I've seen quite a few tunes with K:D and then every
> single C in
> >the piece naturalised. In those cases invariably the description
> is half
> >right - the tonic D is right, but the mode is wrong. If the key
> signature
>
> so does it means the right notation was to write K:Dm ?
>
I'd use K:Dmix for that.
>
> 2)
> >It could be worse. There are a number of tunes that are played
> in
> >both major and minor. I've seen several cases where one of them
> was
> >written with a major key signature and then accidentals
> written
> >throughout to put it into minor. One can get a certain
> perverse
> >thrill from seeing something so idiotic actually make it into
> print.
>
> for 1) and 2) : is it this kind of thing you're thinking about ?
>
> X:11
> T:Yester House
> R:Reel
> C:Niel Gow
> O:Scotland
> A:Inver (Perth)
> B:(n°233) Gow Collection of Scottish Dance Music - Oak
> Publications
> Z:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> M:C
> L:1/8
> Q:1/4=130
> K:A
> a | ec d=GB=g | ec ef=g(b|\
> a)>f=g>e d=GBd | ~e>d=g>B {B}A2 A :|
> B | Aaa>f =gGBd | Aaa>g aAab |\
> =gd=g>B {B}A2 AB |
>Aaa>f =gGBd | Aa~a>g aAab |\
> =gd=g>B {B}A2 A |]
>
> I've transcribed it as it was written in the book I own. All the G
> are written with a natural in front of them, and the signature is
> A. I've made a second version of it, which seems more logical to
> me (and unlike the above it sounds good in AbcMus).
>
> X:12
> T:Yester House (2)
> R:Reel
> C:Niel Gow
> O:Scotland
> A:Inver (Perth)
> B:(n°233) Gow Collection of Scottish Dance Music - Oak
> Publications
> Z:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> M:C
> L:1/8
> Q:1/4=130
> K:D %% or AMix ?
> a | ec dGBg | ec efg(b|\
> a)>fg>e dGBd | ~e>dg>B {B}A2 A :|
> B | Aaa>f gGBd | Aaa>g aAab |\
> gdg>B {B}A2 AB |
>Aaa>f gGBd | Aa~a>g aAab |\
> gdg>B {B}A2 A |]
>
>
> Was the A key written in the original version to make understand
> it's in a A mode ? Can we write then it's in AMixolydian ?
Yes, I'd do it the way you rewrote it, as A Mixolydian, both because
it's easier to read and because I'd then have the the mode information
in the header where I could use it to more accurately search my
collection, when I specifically want an A Mixolydian tune for a set.
> Was it a bad choice in the original book ?
I don't know if I'd say "bad", just fairly typical of many of the old
Scottish collections. For example King George IV and The King's Reel are
both A Mixolydian, because the f's and c's are sharp (or rather, the c's
are *somewhat* sharped, but that's another discussion entirely), but in
the Athole Collection they're both given Am key signatures and then the
notation has #'s sprinkled throughout the tunes. There are examples of
the same sort of compromise throughout both the Athole and Skye
collections.
Some newer publications do address this more cleanly. Cranford
Publications in particular does a good job; the key signatures not only
correctly reflect the notes to be played, but the tunes are arranged by
tonic, with Major keys in their own sections, and minor, dorian and
mixolydian for each tonic grouped together. The setup of those books is
really tailored to Cape Breton-style sets, because it makes it very
easy, for example to build an "A" set without having to search through
100's of tunes that don't even remotely fit the criteria, to find those
that do.. back to some playing now. :-)
Wendy
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[abcusers] modes (again)
>| ... It was already too late to change when I first mentioned
it.
Since it's not possible to add a new field dedicated to mode, I
thought it was possible to write 2 K: fields in a tune, if
necessary : the first one for the signature, and the second one to
*precise* the mode used, so clever applications or users could
find out what is mode and what is the signature (and the others
will have at least something to find the right key from and play
the right accidentals). So that way I guess no application would
be fooled by a "new standard".
>chance of getting the tonic or the mode right. The people running
the
>project will make the reasonable rule that if the key isn't
obvious,
>just type the major key that gives the same signature. In such
cases,
>it would be better if the transcriber could type only the
signature.
that's just what I do so I'm always sure to give the right key,
the way it should be displayed and not how it should be understant
- though the experts whould find themselves the right mode.
1)
>Sure, but I've seen quite a few tunes with K:D and then every
single C in
>the piece naturalised. In those cases invariably the description
is half
>right - the tonic D is right, but the mode is wrong. If the key
signature
so does it means the right notation was to write K:Dm ?
2)
>It could be worse. There are a number of tunes that are played
in
>both major and minor. I've seen several cases where one of them
was
>written with a major key signature and then accidentals
written
>throughout to put it into minor. One can get a certain
perverse
>thrill from seeing something so idiotic actually make it into
print.
for 1) and 2) : is it this kind of thing you're thinking about ?
X:11
T:Yester House
R:Reel
C:Niel Gow
O:Scotland
A:Inver (Perth)
B:(n°233) Gow Collection of Scottish Dance Music - Oak
Publications
Z:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
M:C
L:1/8
Q:1/4=130
K:A
a | ec d=GB=g | ec ef=g(b|\
a)>f=g>e d=GBd | ~e>d=g>B {B}A2 A :|
B | Aaa>f =gGBd | Aaa>g aAab |\
=gd=g>B {B}A2 AB |
Aaa>f =gGBd | Aa~a>g aAab |\
=gd=g>B {B}A2 A |]
I've transcribed it as it was written in the book I own. All the G
are written with a natural in front of them, and the signature is
A. I've made a second version of it, which seems more logical to
me (and unlike the above it sounds good in AbcMus).
X:12
T:Yester House (2)
R:Reel
C:Niel Gow
O:Scotland
A:Inver (Perth)
B:(n°233) Gow Collection of Scottish Dance Music - Oak
Publications
Z:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
M:C
L:1/8
Q:1/4=130
K:D %% or AMix ?
a | ec dGBg | ec efg(b|\
a)>fg>e dGBd | ~e>dg>B {B}A2 A :|
B | Aaa>f gGBd | Aaa>g aAab |\
gdg>B {B}A2 AB |
Aaa>f gGBd | Aa~a>g aAab |\
gdg>B {B}A2 A |]
Was the A key written in the original version to make understand
it's in a A mode ? Can we write then it's in AMixolydian ?
Was it a bad choice in the original book ?
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