Re: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

2016-07-21 Thread Elvis Daniel Velea 

Hi Sander,

On 7/22/16 1:41 AM, Sander Steffann wrote:

Hi Elvis,


I've had easier discussion to judge, and less repetitive-nonsensical ones.

it says awaiting decision from proposer and not from WG Chairs. That is why I 
was asking the proposer.

Just for clarity, this is what the PDP says:


[RIPE-642 section 2.2]
At the end of the Discussion Phase, the proposer, with the agreement of the WG 
chair, decides whether the proposal will move to the next phase (Review Phase) 
or if it should be withdrawn from the RIPE PDP, depending on the feedback 
received. This should be done no more than four weeks after the end of the 
Discussion Phase.
than maybe it should be made clearer on the webpage. While I do 
appreciate the 'upgrade' of the page - it used to be worse - it can be 
improved :)


So the chairs need to make up their minds about if they can agree with the proposer. This involves 
a lot of manual work (as Gert said: analysing the mailing list archives etc) so this takes time. 
The discussion phase ended on 15 July. And the four week period that is common for that type of 
decision hasn't expired yet. And even if it had, it says "should be done" not "must 
be done", so if we stick to the definitions of RFC2119 that timeline may be changed if 
circumstances require.

In short: if you're going to be pedantic please read the relevant documents 
first. The discussion phase has ended. The microphones are closed. And give 
your chairs some breathing room to do their (volunteer) jobs properly.
I have, many times, I used to refer to the same documentation when I was 
a part-time trainer at the NCC :)


Again, the website says the phase is complete and is "Awaiting Decision 
from the Proposer". Maybe it should still be 'green' and not 'blue' and 
maybe it should say something else and not 'awaiting a decision from 
someone until one week ago'. For example, maybe it should say - 
Discussion Period ended on July 15th - 1-4 weeks until next 
phase/decision. Or maybe it should have more columns, one for each phase 
in this process (+ one for each of the periods in between the phases).

Cheers,
Sander

PS: because I got involved in the discussion and questioned some people's 
statements to keep the discussion honest I am abstaining on any decisions 
regarding this proposal to avoid any semblance of conflict of interest. This 
means Gert is doing all the hard work all by himself...

while I appreciate your position, I was under the impression that Gert - 
with his replies on June 20th - did take sides more than you did.


I will leave it to the WG Chairs Collective to decide if he did take 
sides or not and whether any of you can still decide consensus on this 
policy proposal (ripe-642 3.1 &4).
I do not intend to submit an appeal unless this policy proposal moves 
forward to Review Phase.. so I am waiting for the decision of the 
proposer - as the website says :)


regards,
Elvis

Re: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

2016-07-21 Thread Sander Steffann 
Hi Elvis,

>> I've had easier discussion to judge, and less repetitive-nonsensical ones.
> 
> it says awaiting decision from proposer and not from WG Chairs. That is why I 
> was asking the proposer.

Just for clarity, this is what the PDP says:

> [RIPE-642 section 2.2]
> At the end of the Discussion Phase, the proposer, with the agreement of the 
> WG chair, decides whether the proposal will move to the next phase (Review 
> Phase) or if it should be withdrawn from the RIPE PDP, depending on the 
> feedback received. This should be done no more than four weeks after the end 
> of the Discussion Phase.


So the chairs need to make up their minds about if they can agree with the 
proposer. This involves a lot of manual work (as Gert said: analysing the 
mailing list archives etc) so this takes time. The discussion phase ended on 15 
July. And the four week period that is common for that type of decision hasn't 
expired yet. And even if it had, it says "should be done" not "must be done", 
so if we stick to the definitions of RFC2119 that timeline may be changed if 
circumstances require.

In short: if you're going to be pedantic please read the relevant documents 
first. The discussion phase has ended. The microphones are closed. And give 
your chairs some breathing room to do their (volunteer) jobs properly.

Cheers,
Sander

PS: because I got involved in the discussion and questioned some people's 
statements to keep the discussion honest I am abstaining on any decisions 
regarding this proposal to avoid any semblance of conflict of interest. This 
means Gert is doing all the hard work all by himself...



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Re: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

2016-07-21 Thread Elvis Daniel Velea 

Hi again,

fatty fingers, wanted to still edit the last line and hit the wrong key...


On 7/21/16 11:14 PM, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote:


Hi,

just wondering why the page still says Awaiting Decision from Proposer 
- *15 July 2016*


Since you are around to respond, any idea when you you take a decision?

this was meant to say:
Since you are around to respond, any idea when you will make that 
decision? It's almost a week overdue.


cheers,
elvis


regards,
elvis

On 7/21/16 10:35 PM, remco.vanm...@gmail.com wrote:
He thought it needed to be withdrawn because he concluded that there 
was no consensus - and that conclusion is not his to make. So that's 
what Gert responded to.


Remco

Sent from my HTC

- Reply message -
From: "Riccardo Gori" 
To: 
Subject: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 
15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

Date: Thu, Jul 21, 2016 20:29

I see he said "I think".
I think list exists because everyone should be left free to express 
his own opinion, that's not taking decision.

regards
Riccardo

Il 21/07/2016 20:07, Gert Doering ha scritto:

Hi,

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 08:40:38PM +0300, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:

I think, it is time to withdraw this proposal due to we haven't reached the
consensus.

This is not your call to make.

Gert Doering
 -- APWG chair


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Re: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

2016-07-21 Thread Gert Doering 
Hi,

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 11:14:24PM +0300, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote:
> just wondering why the page still says Awaiting Decision from Proposer - 
> *15 July 2016*
> 
> Since you are around to respond, any idea when you you take a decision?

The discussion was... complicated.  This needs some quiet time to wade
through all the mails again, try to make sense of some of the more 
confused ones, see if they actually contain points that could have been 
addressed or not, and whether they *have* been addressed, and so on.

I've had easier discussion to judge, and less repetitive-nonsensical ones.

Gert Doering
-- APWG chair
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AGVorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14  Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
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Re: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

2016-07-21 Thread Elvis Daniel Velea 

Hi,

just wondering why the page still says Awaiting Decision from Proposer - 
*15 July 2016*


Since you are around to respond, any idea when you you take a decision?

regards,
elvis

On 7/21/16 10:35 PM, remco.vanm...@gmail.com wrote:
He thought it needed to be withdrawn because he concluded that there 
was no consensus - and that conclusion is not his to make. So that's 
what Gert responded to.


Remco

Sent from my HTC

- Reply message -
From: "Riccardo Gori" 
To: 
Subject: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 
15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

Date: Thu, Jul 21, 2016 20:29

I see he said "I think".
I think list exists because everyone should be left free to express 
his own opinion, that's not taking decision.

regards
Riccardo

Il 21/07/2016 20:07, Gert Doering ha scritto:

Hi,

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 08:40:38PM +0300, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:

I think, it is time to withdraw this proposal due to we haven't reached the
consensus.

This is not your call to make.

Gert Doering
 -- APWG chair


--
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e-mail:rg...@wirem.net
Mobile:  +39 339 8925947
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Re: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

2016-07-21 Thread Riccardo Gori 

Hi Remco,

In some way I agree with you and Gert but I think everyone should be 
left free to express his own opinion regarding numbers policies as well 
as consensus.
In my point of view starting a sentence with "I think" or "let's 
withdraw" doesn't change the meaning of expressing your own opinion.
That's not taking decision on it and looks pretty clear that declaring 
consensus or not it's chairs job.


regards
Riccardo

Il 21/07/2016 21:35, remco.vanm...@gmail.com ha scritto:
He thought it needed to be withdrawn because he concluded that there 
was no consensus - and that conclusion is not his to make. So that's 
what Gert responded to.


Remco

Sent from my HTC

- Reply message -
From: "Riccardo Gori" 
To: 
Subject: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 
15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

Date: Thu, Jul 21, 2016 20:29

I see he said "I think".
I think list exists because everyone should be left free to express 
his own opinion, that's not taking decision.

regards
Riccardo

Il 21/07/2016 20:07, Gert Doering ha scritto:

Hi,

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 08:40:38PM +0300, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:

I think, it is time to withdraw this proposal due to we haven't reached the
consensus.

This is not your call to make.

Gert Doering
 -- APWG chair


--
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e-mail:rg...@wirem.net
Mobile:  +39 339 8925947
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Re: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

2016-07-21 Thread remco.vanm...@gmail.com 
He thought it needed to be withdrawn because he concluded that there was no 
consensus - and that conclusion is not his to make. So that's what Gert 
responded to.

Remco

Sent from my HTC

- Reply message -
From: "Riccardo Gori" 
To: 
Subject: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 
2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)
Date: Thu, Jul 21, 2016 20:29

I see he said "I think".

I think list exists because everyone should be left free to express
his own opinion, that's not taking decision.

regards

Riccardo



Il 21/07/2016 20:07, Gert Doering ha
scritto:




Hi,

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 08:40:38PM +0300, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:


I think, it is time to withdraw this proposal due to we haven't reached the
consensus.



This is not your call to make.

Gert Doering
-- APWG chair




-- 

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e-mail: rg...@wirem.net
Mobile:  +39 339 8925947
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Re: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

2016-07-21 Thread Riccardo Gori 

I see he said "I think".
I think list exists because everyone should be left free to express his 
own opinion, that's not taking decision.

regards
Riccardo

Il 21/07/2016 20:07, Gert Doering ha scritto:

Hi,

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 08:40:38PM +0300, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:

I think, it is time to withdraw this proposal due to we haven't reached the
consensus.

This is not your call to make.

Gert Doering
 -- APWG chair


--

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e-mail: rg...@wirem.net
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Re: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

2016-07-21 Thread Aleksey Bulgakov 
I just tell the fact, no more :)

2016-07-21 21:13 GMT+03:00 Gert Doering :
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 09:10:15PM +0300, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
>> I just looked at
>> https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/current-proposals/current-policy-proposals
>> no more.
>
> It is time to make a *decision*, this is true.
>
> Whether or not the decision is to withdraw or not, or whether we have
> reached (rough) consensus is the WG chairs job, not yours.
>
> Gert Doering
> -- APWG chair
> --
> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
>
> SpaceNet AGVorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard
> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14  Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
> D-80807 Muenchen   HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
> Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444   USt-IdNr.: DE813185279



-- 
--
Best regards,
Aleksey Bulgakov
Tel.: +7 (926)690-87-29

Re: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

2016-07-21 Thread Gert Doering 
Hi,

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 09:10:15PM +0300, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
> I just looked at
> https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/current-proposals/current-policy-proposals
> no more.

It is time to make a *decision*, this is true.

Whether or not the decision is to withdraw or not, or whether we have
reached (rough) consensus is the WG chairs job, not yours.

Gert Doering
-- APWG chair
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AGVorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14  Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen   HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444   USt-IdNr.: DE813185279


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Re: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

2016-07-21 Thread Aleksey Bulgakov 
I just looked at
https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/current-proposals/current-policy-proposals
no more.

2016-07-21 21:07 GMT+03:00 Gert Doering :
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 08:40:38PM +0300, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
>> I think, it is time to withdraw this proposal due to we haven't reached the
>> consensus.
>
> This is not your call to make.
>
> Gert Doering
> -- APWG chair
> --
> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
>
> SpaceNet AGVorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard
> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14  Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
> D-80807 Muenchen   HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
> Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444   USt-IdNr.: DE813185279



-- 
--
Best regards,
Aleksey Bulgakov
Tel.: +7 (926)690-87-29

Re: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)

2016-07-21 Thread Aleksey Bulgakov 
Hi.

I think, it is time to withdraw this proposal due to we haven't reached the
consensus.


2016-06-23 8:43 GMT+03:00 Riccardo Gori :

> Hi Tore, Hi Elvis,
> I opened the ticket and I can confirm Tore clarification on that.
>
> Il 17/06/2016 08:09, Riccardo Gori ha scritto:
>
> Hi,
>
> Il 17/06/2016 07:41, Tore Anderson ha scritto:
>
> * Elvis Daniel Velea  
>
> Additionally, it would still apply retroactively and people which since
> 2012 until 'yesterday' were allocated PA/transferable IPs (2 years after
> the moment of the allocation) will end up with an allocation that is no
> longer transferable.
>
> Elvis, while there are valid arguments against this proposal, this is
> not one of them.
>
> If it was, then we could essentially just disband the AP-GW as pretty
> much every single policy proposal ever made would "apply
> retroactively". Including the ones that made various forms of transfers
> possible in the first place; suddenly, many old non-transferable blocks
> were "retroactively" changed to become transferable.
>
> Note that the RIPE NCC SSA says:
>
>
> Article 6 – Compliance
>
> 6.1 The Member acknowledges applicability of, and adheres to, the RIPE
> Policies and RIPE NCC procedural documents. The RIPE Policies and the
> RIPE NCC procedural documents are publicly available from the RIPE NCC
> Document Store. These documents, which may be revised and updated from
> time to time, form an integral part of and apply fully to the RIPE NCC
> Standard Service Agreement.
>
> A member who believes that transferability is an immutable and
> everlasting property of address space has not read what they've signed.
>
> If this proposal truly "applied retroactively" with regards to
> transfers, it would have had to annul all the transfers *made prior to
> its adoption* and stated the previously transferred address space was
> to be forcibly returned to its original holder or the NCC.
>
> Alrticle 6:
> This is the part of the agreement I like most 'cause confirms that
> community policies can change everything even on already allocated space.
> Only as fantasy examples: forbid transfer, return space or annual fees per
> held IP .
> I think the community alway choosed to go the esiest and fairier path.
> Elvis policy extended the current 24 months restriction to all PA space
> held by members and fixed the loophole of newly allocated that avoided the
> restriction.
> I consider it fair.
>
>  I do not like policy proposals that apply retroactively
>
> Uhm, so what about your 2015-01 proposal then? That one "applied
> retroactively" no less than this one.
>
> I don't think 2015-01 apply retroactively.
> I think allocation made before implementation of 2015-01 are free from
> limitations.
> I'll open a ticket about it and check and let you know.
>
> Confirmed Tore point.
>
> Anyway. I withdraw my earlier objection to 2016-03. I'm not at all
> convinced it's a good idea or worth the trouble, but if the community
> really wants to go down this road I won't try to block the path.
> Consider me neutral/abstaining.
>
> Tore
>
>
> regards
> Riccardo
> --
>
> Ing. Riccardo Gori
> e-mail: rg...@wirem.net
> Mobile:  +39 339 8925947
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>
> regards
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>


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