Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Robert]

That was true for me in the 80's-90's and then I decided to fix that by 
taking a job I stayed at for 4 years. That ruined all my applications in 
Silicon Valley for the next 5 years.   Everyone then decided that I 
wasn't hot material because I stayed at a regular company instead of a 
rocketship. They understood companies failing and going for another job 
but not staying at a "normal" tech company.   But interestingly 5 years 
later many of the people I knew at that normal company were at startups 
and reached out for me to recruiters.   It was the 5 year gap that 
killed my paylevels.   Sometimes you just can't win.  Luckily one of 
those recommended me to Netscape.


On 9/16/24 9:52 AM, Zach Underwood wrote:
For the first 12 years of my working experience I found that if I 
worked some place for more than 2 years I was being underpaid. If I 
stayed at the role I would be 1-3% pay raise, if I changed jobs I 
would get 20-50%. That has slowed down some as I have moved up the pay 
scale.


On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 12:41 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

We've had a bunch of that too. For some reason, a lot of people in
teach think that you're doing it wrong if you don't hop every 2 -
3 years. Silicon Valley kind of sets some of this with their stock
vetting and lack of meaningful raises later.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>


<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

*From: *"Chris Fabien" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Monday, September 16, 2024 11:34:06 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

Ken, we have an open position currently and I'd say 90% of the
resumes that come thru have what I would consider a garbage work
history. Random assortment of unrelated job roles, most for less
than a year. Clearly no attempt or success at anything resembling
a "career".  I guess this is just normal now?


On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand
is that a PIP (performance improvement plan) or CAP
(corrective action plan) basically means you’re getting fired
and should start your job search now.  They don’t take it as a
wake up call to improve.

Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between
employers and employees seems to have mutually gone to zero. 
The idea of a “career” or working at the same place for years
is gone, and both sides blame the other.  Big corporations
that regularly overhire and then lay off to appease
shareholders don’t help.  Yet billionaire owners like Musk
expect “extreme hardcore” effort from employees who sleep on
the floor.  Seems like local small businesses and family owned
businesses are collateral damage in all this.  Younger workers
learn from their reddits and tiktoks that they are expendable
and so they owe no loyalty or hard work to their job.

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of
        *ch...@go-mtc.com
*Sent:* Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems
to yield much better results much quicker than gentle feed
back, mentoring, multiple reviews etc.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com>
www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro>
www.terabitnetworks.com <http://www.terabitnetworks.com>

*From:*dmmoff...@gmail.com

*Sent:*Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM

*To:*'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance
team.  Bottom line was similar to the seminar you mention, but
slightly different.

The short version is set expectations c

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Robert]

Musks demands for effort were sustainable when the stock was doubling 
every year _and_ products were being gobbled up like PEZ.   I think 
Tesla is going to be struggling with employee problems if the stock 
stays stuck like it is now for a year.   It happens to every startup 
that doesn't have unicorn DNA.   After the IPO the washout of everyone 
that burned both ends and has their vest complete is epic.   The number 
of employees at Tesla that are ready to go postal must be massive.   
What happened with the supercharger division is just a sneak peak.


On 9/16/24 8:56 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand is that 
a PIP (performance improvement plan) or CAP (corrective action plan) 
basically means you’re getting fired and should start your job search 
now.  They don’t take it as a wake up call to improve.


Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between employers and 
employees seems to have mutually gone to zero.  The idea of a “career” 
or working at the same place for years is gone, and both sides blame 
the other.  Big corporations that regularly overhire and then lay off 
to appease shareholders don’t help.  Yet billionaire owners like Musk 
expect “extreme hardcore” effort from employees who sleep on the 
floor.  Seems like local small businesses and family owned businesses 
are collateral damage in all this.  Younger workers learn from their 
reddits and tiktoks that they are expendable and so they owe no 
loyalty or hard work to their job.


*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
*Sent:* Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield 
much better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, 
multiple reviews etc.


Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com>
www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro>
www.terabitnetworks.com <http://www.terabitnetworks.com>

*From:*dmmoff...@gmail.com

*Sent:*Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM

*To:*'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team. 
Bottom line was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly 
different.


The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, 
and make it clear when expectations are not being met. After a few bad 
reviews the most likely outcomes are that they improve or they find 
another job and go away on their own.  If they don’t do either one 
then you have documentation of these reviews and you can drop them 
without fear of any unfounded accusations.


-Adam

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
*Sent:* Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with 
problem employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you 
probably will not change them, learn to live with them or fire them.


So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform. There 
was some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better 
for the position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing 
anyone and almost always realized that I should have done it long 
ago.  And I have remarked that part of our success is that we did fire 
people. I still believe that is true and is good advice.


But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little 
bit.  I got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing 
etc.  I just started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created 
permanent psychic damage, but certainly some temporary psychic 
damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next day that he was OK, had a cry 
in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, good performer.


I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that 
if they could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up 
overall in a better situation and they did too. So far I haven’t fired 
anyone since starting this I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but 
he only got his ass chewing on Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.


Sick of coddling Gen Z.



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[chuck]

You just need “git er done” employees.  Like this one: 

https://youtu.be/b04gOECGUX8?si=z3412I4DWn5UCR-s

RIP



From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 11:17 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

It’s been a long time since I was a middle manager in corporate America, but 
the way big companies worked then was based on salary brackets supposedly 
reflecting market rate (there was a company Hays that published these) and 
something called compa ratio which was percent of midpoint.  Raises were based 
on performance review and compa ratio.  Manager had some wiggle room, but was 
constrained by the formulas.

 

If someone got a good performance review and was at 80% of midpoint, he could 
get a big raise to accelerate him to midpoint.  If he was at 110% of midpoint, 
raises would be small, and if he was at 120% of midpoint, he’d be capped out.  
The system basically dictated that employees above midpoint of their bracket 
needed to get a promotion or see their pay stagnate.

 

Keep in mind though we had grade level promotions, so you didn’t have to go 
into management, you could go from associate engineer to engineer to senior 
engineer to staff engineer, similar in other tracks like customer service or 
technician.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 11:53 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

For the first 12 years of my working experience I found that if I worked some 
place for more than 2 years I was being underpaid. If I stayed at the role I 
would be 1-3% pay raise, if I changed jobs I would get 20-50%. That has slowed 
down some as I have moved up the pay scale. 

 

On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 12:41 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

  We've had a bunch of that too. For some reason, a lot of people in teach 
think that you're doing it wrong if you don't hop every 2 - 3 years. Silicon 
Valley kind of sets some of this with their stock vetting and lack of 
meaningful raises later.



  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Chris Fabien" 
  To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
  Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 11:34:06 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

  Ken, we have an open position currently and I'd say 90% of the resumes that 
come thru have what I would consider a garbage work history. Random assortment 
of unrelated job roles, most for less than a year. Clearly no attempt or 
success at anything resembling a "career".  I guess this is just normal now?

   

   

  On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand is that a 
PIP (performance improvement plan) or CAP (corrective action plan) basically 
means you’re getting fired and should start your job search now.  They don’t 
take it as a wake up call to improve.

 

Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between employers and 
employees seems to have mutually gone to zero.  The idea of a “career” or 
working at the same place for years is gone, and both sides blame the other.  
Big corporations that regularly overhire and then lay off to appease 
shareholders don’t help.  Yet billionaire owners like Musk expect “extreme 
hardcore” effort from employees who sleep on the floor.  Seems like local small 
businesses and family owned businesses are collateral damage in all this.  
Younger workers learn from their reddits and tiktoks that they are expendable 
and so they owe no loyalty or hard work to their job.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield much 
better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, multiple reviews 
etc.  

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM

    To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team.  Bottom 
line was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different.

 

The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and 
make it clear when expectations are not being met.  After a few bad reviews the 
most likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and go away 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Ken Hohhof]

It’s been a long time since I was a middle manager in corporate America, but 
the way big companies worked then was based on salary brackets supposedly 
reflecting market rate (there was a company Hays that published these) and 
something called compa ratio which was percent of midpoint.  Raises were based 
on performance review and compa ratio.  Manager had some wiggle room, but was 
constrained by the formulas.

 

If someone got a good performance review and was at 80% of midpoint, he could 
get a big raise to accelerate him to midpoint.  If he was at 110% of midpoint, 
raises would be small, and if he was at 120% of midpoint, he’d be capped out.  
The system basically dictated that employees above midpoint of their bracket 
needed to get a promotion or see their pay stagnate.

 

Keep in mind though we had grade level promotions, so you didn’t have to go 
into management, you could go from associate engineer to engineer to senior 
engineer to staff engineer, similar in other tracks like customer service or 
technician.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 11:53 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

For the first 12 years of my working experience I found that if I worked some 
place for more than 2 years I was being underpaid. If I stayed at the role I 
would be 1-3% pay raise, if I changed jobs I would get 20-50%. That has slowed 
down some as I have moved up the pay scale. 

 

On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 12:41 PM Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net> > wrote:

We've had a bunch of that too. For some reason, a lot of people in teach think 
that you're doing it wrong if you don't hop every 2 - 3 years. Silicon Valley 
kind of sets some of this with their stock vetting and lack of meaningful 
raises later.



-
Mike Hammett
 <http://www.ics-il.com/> Intelligent Computing Solutions
 <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>  
<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>  
<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> 
 <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> Midwest Internet Exchange
 <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>  
<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> 
 <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> The Brothers WISP
 <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>  
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> 





  _  


From: "Chris Fabien" mailto:ch...@lakenetmi.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 11:34:06 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

Ken, we have an open position currently and I'd say 90% of the resumes that 
come thru have what I would consider a garbage work history. Random assortment 
of unrelated job roles, most for less than a year. Clearly no attempt or 
success at anything resembling a "career".  I guess this is just normal now?

 

 

On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ken Hohhof mailto:khoh...@kwom.com> > wrote:

Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand is that a PIP 
(performance improvement plan) or CAP (corrective action plan) basically means 
you’re getting fired and should start your job search now.  They don’t take it 
as a wake up call to improve.

 

Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between employers and employees 
seems to have mutually gone to zero.  The idea of a “career” or working at the 
same place for years is gone, and both sides blame the other.  Big corporations 
that regularly overhire and then lay off to appease shareholders don’t help.  
Yet billionaire owners like Musk expect “extreme hardcore” effort from 
employees who sleep on the floor.  Seems like local small businesses and family 
owned businesses are collateral damage in all this.  Younger workers learn from 
their reddits and tiktoks that they are expendable and so they owe no loyalty 
or hard work to their job.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of ch...@go-mtc.com <mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield much 
better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, multiple reviews 
etc.  

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com> 
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com <http://www.terabitnetworks.com> 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>  

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Mi

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Mike Hammett]

I can't even trust head hunters because so many just seem like SPAM. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Ken Hohhof"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 11:57:40 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees 



Unfortunately, maybe yes? 

Trying to put a positive spin on it, maybe there are people you’d actually want 
to hire, but they aren’t the ones sending you resumes. Because they’re busy 
working and they’re happy where they’re at. That’s where head hunters used to 
make their commissions, finding the candidates who aren’t actively looking. 


From: AF  On Behalf Of Chris Fabien 
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 11:34 AM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees 


Ken, we have an open position currently and I'd say 90% of the resumes that 
come thru have what I would consider a garbage work history. Random assortment 
of unrelated job roles, most for less than a year. Clearly no attempt or 
success at anything resembling a "career". I guess this is just normal now? 





On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ken Hohhof < khoh...@kwom.com > wrote: 





Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand is that a PIP 
(performance improvement plan) or CAP (corrective action plan) basically means 
you’re getting fired and should start your job search now. They don’t take it 
as a wake up call to improve. 

Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between employers and employees 
seems to have mutually gone to zero. The idea of a “career” or working at the 
same place for years is gone, and both sides blame the other. Big corporations 
that regularly overhire and then lay off to appease shareholders don’t help. 
Yet billionaire owners like Musk expect “extreme hardcore” effort from 
employees who sleep on the floor. Seems like local small businesses and family 
owned businesses are collateral damage in all this. Younger workers learn from 
their reddits and tiktoks that they are expendable and so they owe no loyalty 
or hard work to their job. 




From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com 
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees 




We do write them up. But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield much 
better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, multiple reviews 
etc. 



Best Regards, 
Chuck McCown 

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr 
Lake Point, Utah 84074 
801-250-9503 Office 
435-830-4306 Cell 
www.mccowntech.com 
www.microtrench.pro 
www.terabitnetworks.com 






From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM 

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees 



I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team. Bottom line 
was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different. 

The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and make 
it clear when expectations are not being met. After a few bad reviews the most 
likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and go away on 
their own. If they don’t do either one then you have documentation of these 
reviews and you can drop them without fear of any unfounded accusations. 

-Adam 




From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees 




I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees. After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not change 
them, learn to live with them or fire them. 



So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform. There was some 
positive outcomes. We frequently could find someone better for the position. I 
used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost always 
realized that I should have done it long ago. And I have remarked that part of 
our success is that we did fire people. I still believe that is true and is 
good advice. 



But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit. I got 
tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling, firing etc. I just started 
chewing ass. Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, but 
certainly some temporary psychic damage. One gen Z kid told me the next day 
that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK. And he is now OK, good 
performer. 



I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested. And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situa

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Ken Hohhof]

Unfortunately, maybe yes?

 

Trying to put a positive spin on it, maybe there are people you’d actually want 
to hire, but they aren’t the ones sending you resumes.  Because they’re busy 
working and they’re happy where they’re at.  That’s where head hunters used to 
make their commissions, finding the candidates who aren’t actively looking.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chris Fabien
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 11:34 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

Ken, we have an open position currently and I'd say 90% of the resumes that 
come thru have what I would consider a garbage work history. Random assortment 
of unrelated job roles, most for less than a year. Clearly no attempt or 
success at anything resembling a "career".  I guess this is just normal now?

 

 

On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ken Hohhof mailto:khoh...@kwom.com> > wrote:

Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand is that a PIP 
(performance improvement plan) or CAP (corrective action plan) basically means 
you’re getting fired and should start your job search now.  They don’t take it 
as a wake up call to improve.

 

Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between employers and employees 
seems to have mutually gone to zero.  The idea of a “career” or working at the 
same place for years is gone, and both sides blame the other.  Big corporations 
that regularly overhire and then lay off to appease shareholders don’t help.  
Yet billionaire owners like Musk expect “extreme hardcore” effort from 
employees who sleep on the floor.  Seems like local small businesses and family 
owned businesses are collateral damage in all this.  Younger workers learn from 
their reddits and tiktoks that they are expendable and so they owe no loyalty 
or hard work to their job.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of ch...@go-mtc.com <mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield much 
better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, multiple reviews 
etc.  

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com> 
www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro> 
www.terabitnetworks.com <http://www.terabitnetworks.com> 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>  

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team.  Bottom line 
was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different.

 

The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and make 
it clear when expectations are not being met.  After a few bad reviews the most 
likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and go away on 
their own.  If they don’t do either one then you have documentation of these 
reviews and you can drop them without fear of any unfounded accusations.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of ch...@go-mtc.com <mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.  

 

So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform.  There was 
some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better for the 
position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost 
always realized that I should have done it long ago.  And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.  I still believe that is true 
and is good advice.  

 

But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.  I 
got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing etc.  I just 
started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, 
but certainly some temporary psychic damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next 
day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, 
good performer.  

 

I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.  So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this 
I don’t think.  One guy i

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Zach Underwood]

For the first 12 years of my working experience I found that if I worked
some place for more than 2 years I was being underpaid. If I stayed at the
role I would be 1-3% pay raise, if I changed jobs I would get 20-50%. That
has slowed down some as I have moved up the pay scale.

On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 12:41 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> We've had a bunch of that too. For some reason, a lot of people in teach
> think that you're doing it wrong if you don't hop every 2 - 3 years.
> Silicon Valley kind of sets some of this with their stock vetting and lack
> of meaningful raises later.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> ------
> *From: *"Chris Fabien" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Monday, September 16, 2024 11:34:06 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees
>
> Ken, we have an open position currently and I'd say 90% of the resumes
> that come thru have what I would consider a garbage work history. Random
> assortment of unrelated job roles, most for less than a year. Clearly no
> attempt or success at anything resembling a "career".  I guess this is just
> normal now?
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
>> Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand is that a
>> PIP (performance improvement plan) or CAP (corrective action plan)
>> basically means you’re getting fired and should start your job search now.
>> They don’t take it as a wake up call to improve.
>>
>>
>>
>> Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between employers and
>> employees seems to have mutually gone to zero.  The idea of a “career” or
>> working at the same place for years is gone, and both sides blame the
>> other.  Big corporations that regularly overhire and then lay off to
>> appease shareholders don’t help.  Yet billionaire owners like Musk expect
>> “extreme hardcore” effort from employees who sleep on the floor.  Seems
>> like local small businesses and family owned businesses are collateral
>> damage in all this.  Younger workers learn from their reddits and tiktoks
>> that they are expendable and so they owe no loyalty or hard work to their
>> job.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
>> *Sent:* Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees
>>
>>
>>
>> We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield
>> much better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, multiple
>> reviews etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Chuck McCown
>>
>> McCown Technology Corporation
>> 8401 N Commerce Dr
>> Lake Point, Utah 84074
>> 801-250-9503 Office
>> 435-830-4306 Cell
>> www.mccowntech.com
>> www.microtrench.pro
>> www.terabitnetworks.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM
>>
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees
>>
>>
>>
>> I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team.  Bottom
>> line was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different.
>>
>>
>>
>> The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and
>> make it clear when expectations are not being met.  After a few bad reviews
>> the most likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and
>> go away on their own.  If they don’t do either one then you have
>> documentation of these reviews and you can drop them without fear of any
>> unfounded accusations.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
>> *Sent:* Saturday, September 14, 20

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[chuck]

I recently saw one of the worst resumes I have ever seen.  This guy had 25-30 
jobs listed over a 9 year period.  I gave him some feedback and said to toss 
most of them and lie about the dates on the others otherwise he will be 
chronically unemployed for the rest of his life.  



From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 10:34 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

Ken, we have an open position currently and I'd say 90% of the resumes that 
come thru have what I would consider a garbage work history. Random assortment 
of unrelated job roles, most for less than a year. Clearly no attempt or 
success at anything resembling a "career".  I guess this is just normal now? 


On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

  Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand is that a PIP 
(performance improvement plan) or CAP (corrective action plan) basically means 
you’re getting fired and should start your job search now.  They don’t take it 
as a wake up call to improve.



  Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between employers and 
employees seems to have mutually gone to zero.  The idea of a “career” or 
working at the same place for years is gone, and both sides blame the other.  
Big corporations that regularly overhire and then lay off to appease 
shareholders don’t help.  Yet billionaire owners like Musk expect “extreme 
hardcore” effort from employees who sleep on the floor.  Seems like local small 
businesses and family owned businesses are collateral damage in all this.  
Younger workers learn from their reddits and tiktoks that they are expendable 
and so they owe no loyalty or hard work to their job.





  From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
  Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees



  We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield much 
better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, multiple reviews 
etc.  



  Best Regards,
  Chuck McCown

  McCown Technology Corporation 
  8401 N Commerce Dr
  Lake Point, Utah 84074
  801-250-9503 Office
  435-830-4306 Cell
  www.mccowntech.com
  www.microtrench.pro
  www.terabitnetworks.com



  From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 

  Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM

  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees



  I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team.  Bottom 
line was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different.



  The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and make 
it clear when expectations are not being met.  After a few bad reviews the most 
likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and go away on 
their own.  If they don’t do either one then you have documentation of these 
reviews and you can drop them without fear of any unfounded accusations.



  -Adam





  From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
  Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM
  To: af@af.afmug.com
  Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees



  I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.  



  So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform.  There was 
some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better for the 
position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost 
always realized that I should have done it long ago.  And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.  I still believe that is true 
and is good advice.  



  But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.  I 
got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing etc.  I just 
started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, 
but certainly some temporary psychic damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next 
day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, 
good performer.  



  I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.  So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this 
I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing on 
Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.



  Sick of coddling Gen Z.  






--

  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Mike Hammett]

We've had a bunch of that too. For some reason, a lot of people in teach think 
that you're doing it wrong if you don't hop every 2 - 3 years. Silicon Valley 
kind of sets some of this with their stock vetting and lack of meaningful 
raises later. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chris Fabien"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 11:34:06 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees 


Ken, we have an open position currently and I'd say 90% of the resumes that 
come thru have what I would consider a garbage work history. Random assortment 
of unrelated job roles, most for less than a year. Clearly no attempt or 
success at anything resembling a "career". I guess this is just normal now? 




On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ken Hohhof < khoh...@kwom.com > wrote: 






Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand is that a PIP 
(performance improvement plan) or CAP (corrective action plan) basically means 
you’re getting fired and should start your job search now. They don’t take it 
as a wake up call to improve. 

Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between employers and employees 
seems to have mutually gone to zero. The idea of a “career” or working at the 
same place for years is gone, and both sides blame the other. Big corporations 
that regularly overhire and then lay off to appease shareholders don’t help. 
Yet billionaire owners like Musk expect “extreme hardcore” effort from 
employees who sleep on the floor. Seems like local small businesses and family 
owned businesses are collateral damage in all this. Younger workers learn from 
their reddits and tiktoks that they are expendable and so they owe no loyalty 
or hard work to their job. 




From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com 
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees 




We do write them up. But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield much 
better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, multiple reviews 
etc. 



Best Regards, 
Chuck McCown 

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr 
Lake Point, Utah 84074 
801-250-9503 Office 
435-830-4306 Cell 
www.mccowntech.com 
www.microtrench.pro 
www.terabitnetworks.com 






From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM 

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees 



I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team. Bottom line 
was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different. 

The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and make 
it clear when expectations are not being met. After a few bad reviews the most 
likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and go away on 
their own. If they don’t do either one then you have documentation of these 
reviews and you can drop them without fear of any unfounded accusations. 

-Adam 




From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees 




I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees. After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not change 
them, learn to live with them or fire them. 



So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform. There was some 
positive outcomes. We frequently could find someone better for the position. I 
used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost always 
realized that I should have done it long ago. And I have remarked that part of 
our success is that we did fire people. I still believe that is true and is 
good advice. 



But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit. I got 
tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling, firing etc. I just started 
chewing ass. Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, but 
certainly some temporary psychic damage. One gen Z kid told me the next day 
that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK. And he is now OK, good 
performer. 



I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested. And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too. So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this I 
don’t think. One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing on 
Thursday. We will see if can pull it out. 



Sick of coddling Gen Z. 






-- 
AF mailing list 
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- 
AF

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Chris Fabien]

Ken, we have an open position currently and I'd say 90% of the resumes that
come thru have what I would consider a garbage work history. Random
assortment of unrelated job roles, most for less than a year. Clearly no
attempt or success at anything resembling a "career".  I guess this is just
normal now?


On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand is that a
> PIP (performance improvement plan) or CAP (corrective action plan)
> basically means you’re getting fired and should start your job search now.
> They don’t take it as a wake up call to improve.
>
>
>
> Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between employers and
> employees seems to have mutually gone to zero.  The idea of a “career” or
> working at the same place for years is gone, and both sides blame the
> other.  Big corporations that regularly overhire and then lay off to
> appease shareholders don’t help.  Yet billionaire owners like Musk expect
> “extreme hardcore” effort from employees who sleep on the floor.  Seems
> like local small businesses and family owned businesses are collateral
> damage in all this.  Younger workers learn from their reddits and tiktoks
> that they are expendable and so they owe no loyalty or hard work to their
> job.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
> *Sent:* Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees
>
>
>
> We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield much
> better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, multiple
> reviews etc.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Chuck McCown
>
> McCown Technology Corporation
> 8401 N Commerce Dr
> Lake Point, Utah 84074
> 801-250-9503 Office
> 435-830-4306 Cell
> www.mccowntech.com
> www.microtrench.pro
> www.terabitnetworks.com
>
>
>
> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM
>
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees
>
>
>
> I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team.  Bottom
> line was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different.
>
>
>
> The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and
> make it clear when expectations are not being met.  After a few bad reviews
> the most likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and
> go away on their own.  If they don’t do either one then you have
> documentation of these reviews and you can drop them without fear of any
> unfounded accusations.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] OT Problem employees
>
>
>
> I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem
> employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not
> change them, learn to live with them or fire them.
>
>
>
> So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some
> respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform.  There was
> some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better for the
> position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and
> almost always realized that I should have done it long ago.  And I have
> remarked that part of our success is that we did fire people.  I still
> believe that is true and is good advice.
>
>
>
> But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.
> I got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing etc.  I
> just started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created permanent
> psychic damage, but certainly some temporary psychic damage.  One gen Z kid
> told me the next day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now
> OK.  And he is now OK, good performer.
>
>
>
> I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that if
> they could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in
> a better situation and they did too.  So far I haven’t fired anyone since
> starting this I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but he only got his
> ass chewing on Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.
>
>
>
> Sick of coddling Gen Z.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Ken Hohhof]

I find it interesting that his most consistently successful business is 
literally rocket science.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 11:12 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I was always extreme hardcore sleep on the floor when I worked for others.  I 
would expect Musk rewards such effort very well.  

 

From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 9:56 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand is that a PIP 
(performance improvement plan) or CAP (corrective action plan) basically means 
you’re getting fired and should start your job search now.  They don’t take it 
as a wake up call to improve.

 

Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between employers and employees 
seems to have mutually gone to zero.  The idea of a “career” or working at the 
same place for years is gone, and both sides blame the other.  Big corporations 
that regularly overhire and then lay off to appease shareholders don’t help.  
Yet billionaire owners like Musk expect “extreme hardcore” effort from 
employees who sleep on the floor.  Seems like local small businesses and family 
owned businesses are collateral damage in all this.  Younger workers learn from 
their reddits and tiktoks that they are expendable and so they owe no loyalty 
or hard work to their job.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of ch...@go-mtc.com <mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield much 
better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, multiple reviews 
etc.  

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com> 
www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro> 
www.terabitnetworks.com <http://www.terabitnetworks.com> 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>  

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team.  Bottom line 
was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different.

 

The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and make 
it clear when expectations are not being met.  After a few bad reviews the most 
likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and go away on 
their own.  If they don’t do either one then you have documentation of these 
reviews and you can drop them without fear of any unfounded accusations.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of ch...@go-mtc.com <mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.  

 

So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform.  There was 
some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better for the 
position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost 
always realized that I should have done it long ago.  And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.  I still believe that is true 
and is good advice.  

 

But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.  I 
got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing etc.  I just 
started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, 
but certainly some temporary psychic damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next 
day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, 
good performer.  

 

I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.  So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this 
I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing on 
Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.

 

Sick of coddling Gen Z.  

 

 

  _  

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

  _  

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> 
http://af.afmug.c

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[chuck]

I was always extreme hardcore sleep on the floor when I worked for others.  I 
would expect Musk rewards such effort very well.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 9:56 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand is that a PIP 
(performance improvement plan) or CAP (corrective action plan) basically means 
you’re getting fired and should start your job search now.  They don’t take it 
as a wake up call to improve.

 

Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between employers and employees 
seems to have mutually gone to zero.  The idea of a “career” or working at the 
same place for years is gone, and both sides blame the other.  Big corporations 
that regularly overhire and then lay off to appease shareholders don’t help.  
Yet billionaire owners like Musk expect “extreme hardcore” effort from 
employees who sleep on the floor.  Seems like local small businesses and family 
owned businesses are collateral damage in all this.  Younger workers learn from 
their reddits and tiktoks that they are expendable and so they owe no loyalty 
or hard work to their job.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield much 
better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, multiple reviews 
etc.  

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team.  Bottom line 
was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different.

 

The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and make 
it clear when expectations are not being met.  After a few bad reviews the most 
likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and go away on 
their own.  If they don’t do either one then you have documentation of these 
reviews and you can drop them without fear of any unfounded accusations.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.  

 

So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform.  There was 
some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better for the 
position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost 
always realized that I should have done it long ago.  And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.  I still believe that is true 
and is good advice.  

 

But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.  I 
got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing etc.  I just 
started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, 
but certainly some temporary psychic damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next 
day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, 
good performer.  

 

I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.  So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this 
I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing on 
Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.

 

Sick of coddling Gen Z.  

 

 




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Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Ken Hohhof]

Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand is that a PIP 
(performance improvement plan) or CAP (corrective action plan) basically means 
you’re getting fired and should start your job search now.  They don’t take it 
as a wake up call to improve.

 

Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between employers and employees 
seems to have mutually gone to zero.  The idea of a “career” or working at the 
same place for years is gone, and both sides blame the other.  Big corporations 
that regularly overhire and then lay off to appease shareholders don’t help.  
Yet billionaire owners like Musk expect “extreme hardcore” effort from 
employees who sleep on the floor.  Seems like local small businesses and family 
owned businesses are collateral damage in all this.  Younger workers learn from 
their reddits and tiktoks that they are expendable and so they owe no loyalty 
or hard work to their job.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield much 
better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, multiple reviews 
etc.  

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com> 
www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro> 
www.terabitnetworks.com <http://www.terabitnetworks.com> 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>  

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team.  Bottom line 
was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different.

 

The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and make 
it clear when expectations are not being met.  After a few bad reviews the most 
likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and go away on 
their own.  If they don’t do either one then you have documentation of these 
reviews and you can drop them without fear of any unfounded accusations.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of ch...@go-mtc.com <mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.  

 

So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform.  There was 
some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better for the 
position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost 
always realized that I should have done it long ago.  And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.  I still believe that is true 
and is good advice.  

 

But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.  I 
got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing etc.  I just 
started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, 
but certainly some temporary psychic damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next 
day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, 
good performer.  

 

I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.  So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this 
I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing on 
Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.

 

Sick of coddling Gen Z.  

 

 

  _  

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Mike Hammett]

Unfounded accusations are a bitch. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 10:04:00 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees 



I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team. Bottom line 
was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different. 

The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and make 
it clear when expectations are not being met. After a few bad reviews the most 
likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and go away on 
their own. If they don’t do either one then you have documentation of these 
reviews and you can drop them without fear of any unfounded accusations. 

-Adam 




From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees 




I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees. After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not change 
them, learn to live with them or fire them. 



So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform. There was some 
positive outcomes. We frequently could find someone better for the position. I 
used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost always 
realized that I should have done it long ago. And I have remarked that part of 
our success is that we did fire people. I still believe that is true and is 
good advice. 



But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit. I got 
tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling, firing etc. I just started 
chewing ass. Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, but 
certainly some temporary psychic damage. One gen Z kid told me the next day 
that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK. And he is now OK, good 
performer. 



I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested. And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too. So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this I 
don’t think. One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing on 
Thursday. We will see if can pull it out. 



Sick of coddling Gen Z. 




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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[dmmoffett]

Maybe that’s simply making the feedback “clear”.  Like the tone in your voice 
conveys that these things actually matter, and you’re not speaking empty words. 
 

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 11:29 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield much 
better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, multiple reviews 
etc.  

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com> 
www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro> 
www.terabitnetworks.com <http://www.terabitnetworks.com> 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>  

Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team.  Bottom line 
was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different.

 

The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and make 
it clear when expectations are not being met.  After a few bad reviews the most 
likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and go away on 
their own.  If they don’t do either one then you have documentation of these 
reviews and you can drop them without fear of any unfounded accusations.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of ch...@go-mtc.com <mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.  

 

So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform.  There was 
some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better for the 
position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost 
always realized that I should have done it long ago.  And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.  I still believe that is true 
and is good advice.  

 

But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.  I 
got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing etc.  I just 
started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, 
but certainly some temporary psychic damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next 
day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, 
good performer.  

 

I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.  So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this 
I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing on 
Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.

 

Sick of coddling Gen Z.  

 

 

  _  

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AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[chuck]

We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield much 
better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, multiple reviews 
etc.  

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team.  Bottom line 
was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different.

 

The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and make 
it clear when expectations are not being met.  After a few bad reviews the most 
likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and go away on 
their own.  If they don’t do either one then you have documentation of these 
reviews and you can drop them without fear of any unfounded accusations.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.  

 

So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform.  There was 
some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better for the 
position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost 
always realized that I should have done it long ago.  And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.  I still believe that is true 
and is good advice.  

 

But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.  I 
got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing etc.  I just 
started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, 
but certainly some temporary psychic damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next 
day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, 
good performer.  

 

I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.  So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this 
I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing on 
Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.

 

Sick of coddling Gen Z.  

 

 




-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Ken Hohhof]

Gen B kids:

https://www.gocomics.com/brewsterrockit/2024/09/13

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2024 10:04 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team.  Bottom line 
was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different.

 

The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and make 
it clear when expectations are not being met.  After a few bad reviews the most 
likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and go away on 
their own.  If they don’t do either one then you have documentation of these 
reviews and you can drop them without fear of any unfounded accusations.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of ch...@go-mtc.com <mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.  

 

So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform.  There was 
some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better for the 
position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost 
always realized that I should have done it long ago.  And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.  I still believe that is true 
and is good advice.  

 

But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.  I 
got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing etc.  I just 
started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, 
but certainly some temporary psychic damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next 
day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, 
good performer.  

 

I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.  So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this 
I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing on 
Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.

 

Sick of coddling Gen Z.  

 

 

-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[dmmoffett]

I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team.  Bottom line 
was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly different.

 

The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, and make 
it clear when expectations are not being met.  After a few bad reviews the most 
likely outcomes are that they improve or they find another job and go away on 
their own.  If they don’t do either one then you have documentation of these 
reviews and you can drop them without fear of any unfounded accusations.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.  

 

So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform.  There was 
some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better for the 
position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost 
always realized that I should have done it long ago.  And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.  I still believe that is true 
and is good advice.  

 

But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.  I 
got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing etc.  I just 
started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, 
but certainly some temporary psychic damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next 
day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, 
good performer.  

 

I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.  So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this 
I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing on 
Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.

 

Sick of coddling Gen Z.  

 

 

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Ken Hohhof]

On the topic of part timers:https://www.gocomics.com/fminus/2024/09/05 
Original Message From: "Ken Hohhof" Sent: 9/14/2024 5:09:07 PMTo: 
af@af.afmug.comSubject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employeesMaybe you're their 
second job.Like the girlfriend who suddenly realizes SHE'S  the side chick. 
Original Message From: chuck@go-mtc.comSent: 9/14/2024 4:06:37 PMTo: 
"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees







I guess I just got old enough and cranky enough to just get it off my chest 
and move on.? 
Never a good thing to try to be friends with employees.? Some distance 
is useful.? 
?
Yeah, having an HR person is very nice.? I had a good one back when I 
had 100 employees. 
My latest incarnation is a bit small for that.? I figure if I hit 50 
employees or more again I will do that.? 
?
I think you are actually harming the employee by not chewing their 
ass.? 
As long as you don?t totally lose your cool and do it out of 
anger.??? 
A little bit of old testament ?he that hateth his child spares the rod? 
seems to be apropos in moderation.?? 
?
A man cannot improve if he is not told what is wrong with him (that is a 
line from the dad in ?Rocket Boys? or the ?October Sky?).
?
With respect to, if they fall under a certain number of hours per week, 
they go part time, lose their paid holidays, all benefits etc.? Some of 
them seem to be OK with that.? I was just tired to fighting those that seem 
to be chronically sick, or have family emergencies/drama.? OK, fine, part 
time and you may get replaced with a full time hire if things pick up 
more.? We offer as much OT as you want to work.? Only a few take 
advantage of it.? Older guys mostly.? We have guys that don?t have the 
money to fix their ride to work but don?t even average 20 hours per week.? 
I don?t understand it.? 
?




From: Dan P via 
AF 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 2:45 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Cc: Dan P 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees
?


I finally got an HR person that 
does all the write ups / firings and it has been the best thing 
ever.?? We starting an attendance point system recently as man its 
getting old keeping reliable people here.?? There isn?t a firing I 
have regretted, usually the opposite pops up,? we realize it should have 
been done long ago but I always hated the drama.? 
?
?


From: AF 
 On Behalf Of 
chuck@go-mtc.comSent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 2:22 
PMTo: af@af.afmug.comSubject: [AFMUG] OT Problem 
employees
?



I many 
years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.? After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.? 


?

So for a 
number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some respectful 
feedback 
and then fired the ones the did not perform.? There was some positive 
outcomes.? We frequently could find someone better for the position.? 
I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost always 
realized that I should have done it long ago.? And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.? I still believe that is 
true and is good advice.? 

?

But in 
the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.? I got 
tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,? firing etc.? I just 
started chewing ass.? Not to the point that I created permanent psychic 
damage, but certainly some temporary psychic damage.? One gen Z kid told me 
the next day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.? And he 
is now OK, good performer.? 

?

I decided 
I did not want to waste the training I invested.? And that if they could 
survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.? So far I haven?t fired anyone since starting 
this I don?t think.? One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing 
on Thursday.? We will see if can pull it out.??? 


?

Sick of 
coddling Gen Z.? 

?

?


-- AF mailing 
listAF@af.afmug.comhttp://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Ken Hohhof]

Maybe you're their second job.Like the girlfriend who suddenly realizes SHE'S  
the side chick. Original Message From: chuck@go-mtc.comSent: 9/14/2024 
4:06:37 PMTo: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT 
Problem employees







I guess I just got old enough and cranky enough to just get it off my chest 
and move on.? 
Never a good thing to try to be friends with employees.? Some distance 
is useful.? 
?
Yeah, having an HR person is very nice.? I had a good one back when I 
had 100 employees. 
My latest incarnation is a bit small for that.? I figure if I hit 50 
employees or more again I will do that.? 
?
I think you are actually harming the employee by not chewing their 
ass.? 
As long as you don?t totally lose your cool and do it out of 
anger.??? 
A little bit of old testament ?he that hateth his child spares the rod? 
seems to be apropos in moderation.?? 
?
A man cannot improve if he is not told what is wrong with him (that is a 
line from the dad in ?Rocket Boys? or the ?October Sky?).
?
With respect to, if they fall under a certain number of hours per week, 
they go part time, lose their paid holidays, all benefits etc.? Some of 
them seem to be OK with that.? I was just tired to fighting those that seem 
to be chronically sick, or have family emergencies/drama.? OK, fine, part 
time and you may get replaced with a full time hire if things pick up 
more.? We offer as much OT as you want to work.? Only a few take 
advantage of it.? Older guys mostly.? We have guys that don?t have the 
money to fix their ride to work but don?t even average 20 hours per week.? 
I don?t understand it.? 
?




From: Dan P via 
AF 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 2:45 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Cc: Dan P 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees
?


I finally got an HR person that 
does all the write ups / firings and it has been the best thing 
ever.?? We starting an attendance point system recently as man its 
getting old keeping reliable people here.?? There isn?t a firing I 
have regretted, usually the opposite pops up,? we realize it should have 
been done long ago but I always hated the drama.? 
?
?


From: AF 
 On Behalf Of 
chuck@go-mtc.comSent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 2:22 
PMTo: af@af.afmug.comSubject: [AFMUG] OT Problem 
employees
?



I many 
years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.? After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.? 


?

So for a 
number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some respectful 
feedback 
and then fired the ones the did not perform.? There was some positive 
outcomes.? We frequently could find someone better for the position.? 
I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost always 
realized that I should have done it long ago.? And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.? I still believe that is 
true and is good advice.? 

?

But in 
the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.? I got 
tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,? firing etc.? I just 
started chewing ass.? Not to the point that I created permanent psychic 
damage, but certainly some temporary psychic damage.? One gen Z kid told me 
the next day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.? And he 
is now OK, good performer.? 

?

I decided 
I did not want to waste the training I invested.? And that if they could 
survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.? So far I haven?t fired anyone since starting 
this I don?t think.? One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing 
on Thursday.? We will see if can pull it out.??? 


?

Sick of 
coddling Gen Z.? 

?

?


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[chuck]

I guess I just got old enough and cranky enough to just get it off my chest and 
move on.  
Never a good thing to try to be friends with employees.  Some distance is 
useful.  

Yeah, having an HR person is very nice.  I had a good one back when I had 100 
employees. 
My latest incarnation is a bit small for that.  I figure if I hit 50 employees 
or more again I will do that.  

I think you are actually harming the employee by not chewing their ass.  
As long as you don’t totally lose your cool and do it out of anger.
A little bit of old testament “he that hateth his child spares the rod” seems 
to be apropos in moderation.   

A man cannot improve if he is not told what is wrong with him (that is a line 
from the dad in “Rocket Boys” or the “October Sky”).

With respect to, if they fall under a certain number of hours per week, they go 
part time, lose their paid holidays, all benefits etc.  Some of them seem to be 
OK with that.  I was just tired to fighting those that seem to be chronically 
sick, or have family emergencies/drama.  OK, fine, part time and you may get 
replaced with a full time hire if things pick up more.  We offer as much OT as 
you want to work.  Only a few take advantage of it.  Older guys mostly.  We 
have guys that don’t have the money to fix their ride to work but don’t even 
average 20 hours per week.  I don’t understand it.  

From: Dan P via AF 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 2:45 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Dan P 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

I finally got an HR person that does all the write ups / firings and it has 
been the best thing ever.   We starting an attendance point system recently as 
man its getting old keeping reliable people here.   There isn’t a firing I have 
regretted, usually the opposite pops up,  we realize it should have been done 
long ago but I always hated the drama.  

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 2:22 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

 

I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.  

 

So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform.  There was 
some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better for the 
position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost 
always realized that I should have done it long ago.  And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.  I still believe that is true 
and is good advice.  

 

But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.  I 
got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing etc.  I just 
started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, 
but certainly some temporary psychic damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next 
day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, 
good performer.  

 

I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.  So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this 
I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing on 
Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.

 

Sick of coddling Gen Z.  

 

 




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Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Dan P via AF]

I finally got an HR person that does all the write ups / firings and it has 
been the best thing ever.   We starting an attendance point system recently as 
man its getting old keeping reliable people here.   There isn’t a firing I have 
regretted, usually the opposite pops up,  we realize it should have been done 
long ago but I always hated the drama.


From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2024 2:22 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.

So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform.  There was 
some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better for the 
position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost 
always realized that I should have done it long ago.  And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.  I still believe that is true 
and is good advice.

But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.  I 
got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing etc.  I just 
started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, 
but certainly some temporary psychic damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next 
day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, 
good performer.

I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.  So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this 
I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing on 
Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.

Sick of coddling Gen Z.


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[AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[chuck]

I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with problem 
employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you probably will not 
change them, learn to live with them or fire them.  

So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform.  There was 
some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better for the 
position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing anyone and almost 
always realized that I should have done it long ago.  And I have remarked that 
part of our success is that we did fire people.  I still believe that is true 
and is good advice.  

But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little bit.  I 
got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing etc.  I just 
started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created permanent psychic damage, 
but certainly some temporary psychic damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next 
day that he was OK, had a cry in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, 
good performer.  

I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that if they 
could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up overall in a better 
situation and they did too.  So far I haven’t fired anyone since starting this 
I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but he only got his ass chewing on 
Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.

Sick of coddling Gen Z.  

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Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg

[dmmoffett]

I’ve heard that vehicle computers get buried in something.  It was in an
anecdote about an EE at our local Lockheed Martin facility repairing his
car’s computer because he was mad about how expensive the replacement was.

Allegedly he had to cut away ¾” of something resembling silicone to access
the board, and when he was done he reburied it with silicone caulk.  I don’t
know jack.  Just a story I heard.  But it makes sense given road spray, car
washes, storms, floods, etc that a vehicle might have to go through.  

 

My second thought was maybe there’s nothing wrong with the coating, but
there’s an issue with the process.  Is the coating sprayed on?  I could
picture a through hole component making a shadow where a spray hits the
component itself but doesn’t get to the pins under it.  Maybe it has to be
dipped, or sprayed from several angles.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2024 8:11 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg

 

Maybe like the Internet tells me performers like Taylor Swift get such shiny
legs is they wear 3 or 4 pair of stockings on top of each other.

One advantage of conformal coating is you can theoretically do repairs like
replacing parts. Kind of like weld through primer.

I have depotted things by submersing them in a special solvent for a couple
days but only to do a failure analysis.


 Original Message 
From: ch...@go-mtc.com <mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
Sent: 9/9/2024 5:59:03 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg

We still use humiseal.  I put the board in the upper steering column of a
machine that should be safe from spray but pressure washing ruined that
illusion.  Yes, next rev will have it in a nice sealed box, but I need to
ship out some PCBs to current users to prevent any accidents.  So we are
trying different coatings.  I think we may use some UV cure stuff.  It
doesn’t heat, one of the reasons I went with MOSFETs.  So airflow is
probably not a consideration.  

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com> 
www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro> 
www.terabitnetworks.com <http://www.terabitnetworks.com> 

 

From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Monday, September 9, 2024 4:53 PM

To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>  

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg

 

Wow, I haven't dealt with conformal coating for almost 50 years. I remember
using a product called HumiSeal. There's spray, dip, air cure, other curing
methods. Thin, thick. Hard to makw a universal statement. My impression
though it was intended for humidity or condensation, not spray or
submersion.

My personal preference would be to put the circuit board in a NEMA4
enclosure and use conformal coating for belt and suspenders. Is there a
reason like airflow you can't put it in a waterproof box?

 Original Message 
From: ch...@go-mtc.com <mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
Sent: 9/9/2024 5:22:44 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg

I have a motion control PCB that runs some hydraulic valves via pwm in one
of my products.  We discovered that a drop of water on the right place on
the PCB will turn on a MOSFET causing uncommanded movement of the system.  

 

The argument around here is potting vs conformal coating.  

 

The boards that were exposed to water via pressure washing operations DID
have conformal coating on them but some how the water still turned on the
transistors.  

 

I had the P channel depletion MOSFETS pulled up with a 10K resistor.  We
changed that to a 680 ohm and it made it much less likely to get turned on
with water droplets.  But it is not perfect.  Needs physical protection too.


 

I am of the opinion that a good thick layer of conformal coating is just as
good as potting and much less work.  Opinions?

 

 

  _  

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Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg

[chuck]

Never had luck using solvents for depotting.  Soldering iron will cause it to 
disintegrate allowing you to mechanically remove it.  

With respect to stockings, remember Broadway Joe Namath’s  scandalous 
pantyhose.  



From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Monday, September 9, 2024 6:11 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg

Maybe like the Internet tells me performers like Taylor Swift get such shiny 
legs is they wear 3 or 4 pair of stockings on top of each other.

One advantage of conformal coating is you can theoretically do repairs like 
replacing parts. Kind of like weld through primer.

I have depotted things by submersing them in a special solvent for a couple 
days but only to do a failure analysis.


 Original Message 
From: ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: 9/9/2024 5:59:03 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg


We still use humiseal.  I put the board in the upper steering column of a 
machine that should be safe from spray but pressure washing ruined that 
illusion.  Yes, next rev will have it in a nice sealed box, but I need to ship 
out some PCBs to current users to prevent any accidents.  So we are trying 
different coatings.  I think we may use some UV cure stuff.  It doesn’t heat, 
one of the reasons I went with MOSFETs.  So airflow is probably not a 
consideration.  

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Monday, September 9, 2024 4:53 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg

Wow, I haven't dealt with conformal coating for almost 50 years. I remember 
using a product called HumiSeal. There's spray, dip, air cure, other curing 
methods. Thin, thick. Hard to makw a universal statement. My impression though 
it was intended for humidity or condensation, not spray or submersion.

My personal preference would be to put the circuit board in a NEMA4 enclosure 
and use conformal coating for belt and suspenders. Is there a reason like 
airflow you can't put it in a waterproof box?

 Original Message 
From: ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: 9/9/2024 5:22:44 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg


I have a motion control PCB that runs some hydraulic valves via pwm in one of 
my products.  We discovered that a drop of water on the right place on the PCB 
will turn on a MOSFET causing uncommanded movement of the system.  

The argument around here is potting vs conformal coating.  

The boards that were exposed to water via pressure washing operations DID have 
conformal coating on them but some how the water still turned on the 
transistors.  

I had the P channel depletion MOSFETS pulled up with a 10K resistor.  We 
changed that to a 680 ohm and it made it much less likely to get turned on with 
water droplets.  But it is not perfect.  Needs physical protection too.  

I am of the opinion that a good thick layer of conformal coating is just as 
good as potting and much less work.  Opinions?





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Re: [AFMUG] OT Apollo 13

[Josh Luthman]

I saw this pop up, I didn't give it a glance thinking it was another drama
BS thing.  Thanks for the mention!

On Sun, Sep 8, 2024 at 4:43 PM  wrote:

> New movie on Netflix made up entirely of original footage.  Enjoyed every
> bit of it.  They didn’t mention this artifact.  One of my favorite things.
> https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/afj/ap13fj/pics/towingbill.jpg
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg

[Ken Hohhof]

Maybe like the Internet tells me performers like Taylor Swift get such shiny 
legs is they wear 3 or 4 pair of stockings on top of each other.One advantage 
of conformal coating is you can theoretically do repairs like replacing parts. 
Kind of like weld through primer.I have depotted things by submersing them in a 
special solvent for a couple days but only to do a failure analysis. 
Original Message From: chuck@go-mtc.comSent: 9/9/2024 5:59:03 PMTo: 
af@af.afmug.comSubject: Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg



We still use humiseal.? I put the board in the upper steering column 
of a machine that should be safe from spray but pressure washing ruined that 
illusion.? Yes, next rev will have it in a nice sealed box, but I need to 
ship out some PCBs to current users to prevent any accidents.? So we are 
trying different coatings.? I think we may use some UV cure stuff.? It 
doesn?t heat, one of the reasons I went with MOSFETs.? So airflow is 
probably not a consideration.? 
?
Best 
Regards,Chuck McCownMcCown Technology Corporation 8401 N 
Commerce DrLake Point, Utah 84074801-250-9503 Office435-830-4306 
Cellwww.mccowntech.comwww.microtrench.prowww.terabitnetworks.com


?

From: Ken 
Hohhof 
Sent: Monday, September 9, 2024 4:53 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg
?
Wow, 
I haven't dealt with conformal coating for almost 50 years. I remember using a 
product called HumiSeal. There's spray, dip, air cure, other curing methods. 
Thin, thick. Hard to makw a universal statement. My impression though it was 
intended for humidity or condensation, not spray or submersion.My 
personal preference would be to put the circuit board in a NEMA4 enclosure and 
use conformal coating for belt and suspenders. Is there a reason like airflow 
you can't put it in a waterproof box? Original Message From: 
chuck@go-mtc.comSent: 9/9/2024 5:22:44 PMTo: af@af.afmug.comSubject: 
[AFMUG] OT question for the borg


I have a motion control PCB that runs some hydraulic valves via pwm in one 
of my products.? We discovered that a drop of water on the right place on 
the PCB will turn on a MOSFET causing uncommanded movement of the system.? 

?
The argument around here is potting vs conformal coating.? 
?
The boards that were exposed to water via pressure washing operations DID 
have conformal coating on them but some how the water still turned on the 
transistors.? 
?
I had the P channel depletion MOSFETS pulled up with a 10K resistor.? 
We changed that to a 680 ohm and it made it much less likely to get turned on 
with water droplets.? But it is not perfect.? Needs physical 
protection too.? 
?
I am of the opinion that a good thick layer of conformal coating is just as 
good as potting and much less work.? Opinions?
?
?


-- AF mailing 
listAF@af.afmug.comhttp://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg

[chuck]

We still use humiseal.  I put the board in the upper steering column of a 
machine that should be safe from spray but pressure washing ruined that 
illusion.  Yes, next rev will have it in a nice sealed box, but I need to ship 
out some PCBs to current users to prevent any accidents.  So we are trying 
different coatings.  I think we may use some UV cure stuff.  It doesn’t heat, 
one of the reasons I went with MOSFETs.  So airflow is probably not a 
consideration.  

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Monday, September 9, 2024 4:53 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg

Wow, I haven't dealt with conformal coating for almost 50 years. I remember 
using a product called HumiSeal. There's spray, dip, air cure, other curing 
methods. Thin, thick. Hard to makw a universal statement. My impression though 
it was intended for humidity or condensation, not spray or submersion.

My personal preference would be to put the circuit board in a NEMA4 enclosure 
and use conformal coating for belt and suspenders. Is there a reason like 
airflow you can't put it in a waterproof box?

 Original Message 
From: ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: 9/9/2024 5:22:44 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg


I have a motion control PCB that runs some hydraulic valves via pwm in one of 
my products.  We discovered that a drop of water on the right place on the PCB 
will turn on a MOSFET causing uncommanded movement of the system.  

The argument around here is potting vs conformal coating.  

The boards that were exposed to water via pressure washing operations DID have 
conformal coating on them but some how the water still turned on the 
transistors.  

I had the P channel depletion MOSFETS pulled up with a 10K resistor.  We 
changed that to a 680 ohm and it made it much less likely to get turned on with 
water droplets.  But it is not perfect.  Needs physical protection too.  

I am of the opinion that a good thick layer of conformal coating is just as 
good as potting and much less work.  Opinions?





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Re: [AFMUG] OT question for the borg

[Ken Hohhof]

Wow, I haven't dealt with conformal coating for almost 50 years. I remember 
using a product called HumiSeal. There's spray, dip, air cure, other curing 
methods. Thin, thick. Hard to makw a universal statement. My impression though 
it was intended for humidity or condensation, not spray or submersion.My 
personal preference would be to put the circuit board in a NEMA4 enclosure and 
use conformal coating for belt and suspenders. Is there a reason like airflow 
you can't put it in a waterproof box? Original Message From: 
chuck@go-mtc.comSent: 9/9/2024 5:22:44 PMTo: af@af.afmug.comSubject: [AFMUG] OT 
question for the borg



I have a motion control PCB that runs some hydraulic valves via pwm in one 
of my products.? We discovered that a drop of water on the right place on 
the PCB will turn on a MOSFET causing uncommanded movement of the system.? 

?
The argument around here is potting vs conformal coating.? 
?
The boards that were exposed to water via pressure washing operations DID 
have conformal coating on them but some how the water still turned on the 
transistors.? 
?
I had the P channel depletion MOSFETS pulled up with a 10K resistor.? 
We changed that to a 680 ohm and it made it much less likely to get turned on 
with water droplets.? But it is not perfect.? Needs physical 
protection too.? 
?
I am of the opinion that a good thick layer of conformal coating is just as 
good as potting and much less work.? Opinions?
?
?

-- 
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[AFMUG] OT question for the borg

[chuck]

I have a motion control PCB that runs some hydraulic valves via pwm in one of 
my products.  We discovered that a drop of water on the right place on the PCB 
will turn on a MOSFET causing uncommanded movement of the system.  

The argument around here is potting vs conformal coating.  

The boards that were exposed to water via pressure washing operations DID have 
conformal coating on them but some how the water still turned on the 
transistors.  

I had the P channel depletion MOSFETS pulled up with a 10K resistor.  We 
changed that to a 680 ohm and it made it much less likely to get turned on with 
water droplets.  But it is not perfect.  Needs physical protection too.  

I am of the opinion that a good thick layer of conformal coating is just as 
good as potting and much less work.  Opinions?

-- 
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[AFMUG] OT Apollo 13

[chuck]

New movie on Netflix made up entirely of original footage.  Enjoyed every bit 
of it.  They didn’t mention this artifact.  One of my favorite things.  
https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/afj/ap13fj/pics/towingbill.jpg
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Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

[chuck]

Pretty cool.  Using one in our C.O.  



From: TJ Trout 
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 5:54 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

Chuck, have you seen the solar mini splits? 

https://signaturesolar.com/all-products/high-efficiency-appliances/?_bc_fsnf=1&brand=66


On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 12:18 PM  wrote:

  Well if the compressor was connected to a series wound motor, either would 
work.  

  From: Ken Hohhof 
  Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 12:43 PM
  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

  And should it be A/C?



  From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
  Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 1:23 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts



  I say turn up the AC and almost everyone thinks I am cold.  



  From: Bill Prince 

  Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 11:59 AM

  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts



  I tell my staff to make it cooler. 



  --

  bp

  part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com





  On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 9:26 AM  wrote:

If the room is to warm do you turn the AC up or down?



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Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

[TJ Trout]

Chuck, have you seen the solar mini splits?

https://signaturesolar.com/all-products/high-efficiency-appliances/?_bc_fsnf=1&brand=66

On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 12:18 PM  wrote:

> Well if the compressor was connected to a series wound motor, either would
> work.
>
> *From:* Ken Hohhof
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2024 12:43 PM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts
>
>
> And should it be A/C?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2024 1:23 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts
>
>
>
> I say turn up the AC and almost everyone thinks I am cold.
>
>
>
> *From:* Bill Prince
>
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 25, 2024 11:59 AM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts
>
>
>
> I tell my staff to make it cooler.
>
>
>
> --
>
> bp
>
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 9:26 AM  wrote:
>
> If the room is to warm do you turn the AC up or down?
>
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

[chuck]

Well if the compressor was connected to a series wound motor, either would 
work.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 12:43 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

And should it be A/C?

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 1:23 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

 

I say turn up the AC and almost everyone thinks I am cold.  

 

From: Bill Prince 

Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 11:59 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

 

I tell my staff to make it cooler. 

 

--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com

 

 

On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 9:26 AM  wrote:

  If the room is to warm do you turn the AC up or down?

   

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Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

[Ken Hohhof]

And should it be A/C?

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 1:23 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

 

I say turn up the AC and almost everyone thinks I am cold.  

 

From: Bill Prince 

Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 11:59 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

 

I tell my staff to make it cooler. 

 

--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com

 

 

On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 9:26 AM mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> > 
wrote:

If the room is to warm do you turn the AC up or down?

 

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  _  

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Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

[chuck]

I say turn up the AC and almost everyone thinks I am cold.  

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 11:59 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

I tell my staff to make it cooler. 

--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 9:26 AM  wrote:

  If the room is to warm do you turn the AC up or down?

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Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

[Ken Hohhof]

Can your staff part the sea?

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 12:59 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

 

I tell my staff to make it cooler.




--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com

 

 

On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 9:26 AM mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> > 
wrote:

If the room is to warm do you turn the AC up or down?

 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

[Bill Prince]

I tell my staff to make it cooler.

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On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 9:26 AM  wrote:

> If the room is to warm do you turn the AC up or down?
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

[Ken Hohhof]

Pour another bucket of water in the swamp cooler.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick - Lists
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 12:29 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

 

AC up, thermostat down

 

Regards,

 

Jeff 

 

Jeff Broadwick

CTIconnect

312-205-2519 Office

574-220-7826 Cell

jbroadw...@cticonnect.com <mailto:jbroadw...@cticonnect.com> 





On Aug 25, 2024, at 12:26 PM, ch...@go-mtc.com <mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>  wrote:

 

If the room is to warm do you turn the AC up or down?

 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

[Jeff Broadwick - Lists]

AC up, thermostat down

Regards,

Jeff 

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com

> On Aug 25, 2024, at 12:26 PM, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:
> 
> 
> If the room is to warm do you turn the AC up or down?
>  
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[AFMUG] OT deep thoughts

[chuck]

If the room is to warm do you turn the AC up or down?
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Movie Review

[Josh Luthman]

Not worth it.  The movie 'Lucy' had her and Freeman.  It was absolutely
abysmal.

On Sun, Jul 14, 2024 at 8:31 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

> At least you get to watch Scarlett Johansson
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 2:30 AM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> Yes
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 12, 2024, at 8:57 PM, Josh Luthman 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> This???  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW7enw6mFxs
>>
>> It looks absolutely awful.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 9:44 PM  wrote:
>>
>>> Scarlett Johansson Apollo 11 movie.
>>>
>>> If you remember Apollo 11 or are a buff of the Apollo program, you may
>>> not like it.  They did not try to have realistic props or to portray the
>>> crew of mission control in a realistic manner.  Even the consoles were
>>> cheap low effort imitations.  The plot was OK and a bit fun.  And over all
>>> the movie was a tiny bit of fun, but the lazy effort bugged the crap out of
>>> me.
>>>
>>> --
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Movie Review

[Bill Prince]

At least you get to watch Scarlett Johansson
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On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 2:30 AM Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Yes
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 12, 2024, at 8:57 PM, Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
> 
> This???  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW7enw6mFxs
>
> It looks absolutely awful.
>
> On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 9:44 PM  wrote:
>
>> Scarlett Johansson Apollo 11 movie.
>>
>> If you remember Apollo 11 or are a buff of the Apollo program, you may
>> not like it.  They did not try to have realistic props or to portray the
>> crew of mission control in a realistic manner.  Even the consoles were
>> cheap low effort imitations.  The plot was OK and a bit fun.  And over all
>> the movie was a tiny bit of fun, but the lazy effort bugged the crap out of
>> me.
>>
>> --
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>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Movie Review

[Chuck McCown]

YesSent from my iPhoneOn Jul 12, 2024, at 8:57 PM, Josh Luthman  wrote:This???  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW7enw6mFxsIt looks absolutely awful.On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 9:44 PM  wrote:



Scarlett Johansson Apollo 11 movie.
 
If you remember Apollo 11 or are a buff of the Apollo program, you may not 
like it.  They did not try to have realistic props or to portray the crew 
of mission control in a realistic manner.  Even the consoles were cheap low 
effort imitations.  The plot was OK and a bit fun.  And over all the 
movie was a tiny bit of fun, but the lazy effort bugged the crap out of 
me.   
 
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Movie Review

[Josh Luthman]

This???  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW7enw6mFxs

It looks absolutely awful.

On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 9:44 PM  wrote:

> Scarlett Johansson Apollo 11 movie.
>
> If you remember Apollo 11 or are a buff of the Apollo program, you may not
> like it.  They did not try to have realistic props or to portray the crew
> of mission control in a realistic manner.  Even the consoles were cheap low
> effort imitations.  The plot was OK and a bit fun.  And over all the movie
> was a tiny bit of fun, but the lazy effort bugged the crap out of me.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
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>
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[AFMUG] OT Movie Review

[chuck]

Scarlett Johansson Apollo 11 movie.

If you remember Apollo 11 or are a buff of the Apollo program, you may not like 
it.  They did not try to have realistic props or to portray the crew of mission 
control in a realistic manner.  Even the consoles were cheap low effort 
imitations.  The plot was OK and a bit fun.  And over all the movie was a tiny 
bit of fun, but the lazy effort bugged the crap out of me.   
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Bill Prince]

I hope you dew point out what that means.

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On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 12:36 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> We know what it means when someone calls you a dim bulb, but what about
> wet bulb?
>
>  Original Message 
> From: ch...@go-mtc.com
> Sent: 7/12/2024 2:14:31 PM
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling
>
> https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/wet-bulb
>
>
>
> *From:* ch...@go-mtc.com
> *Sent:* Friday, July 12, 2024 9:34 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling
>
> You do need to do annual maintenance prior to start up each year.
>
>
>
> *From:* Robert
> *Sent:* Friday, July 12, 2024 7:15 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling
>
> And they last a long time, with just a little work...
>
>
> https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/07/07/nearly-90-years-old-wyomings-first-air-conditioner-still-works/
>
>
> On 7/11/24 4:47 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
>
> Yeah. Those swamp coolers are the hot ticket (pun intended) in the central
> valley here in California.
>
> In my early days here I dated a woman who taught school out by Fresno. She
> and all her neighbors had swamp coolers. They seemed to work just great.
>
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:22?PM  wrote:
>
>> It is 100 outside and 75 inside.
>>
>> 22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.
>> 16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.
>>
>> All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.
>> --
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[chuck]

Means you are cool.  



From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2024 1:31 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

We know what it means when someone calls you a dim bulb, but what about wet 
bulb?

 Original Message 
From: ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: 7/12/2024 2:14:31 PM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling


https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/wet-bulb



From: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2024 9:34 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

You do need to do annual maintenance prior to start up each year.



From: Robert 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2024 7:15 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

And they last a long time, with just a little work...

https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/07/07/nearly-90-years-old-wyomings-first-air-conditioner-still-works/



On 7/11/24 4:47 PM, Bill Prince wrote:

  Yeah. Those swamp coolers are the hot ticket (pun intended) in the central 
valley here in California. 

  In my early days here I dated a woman who taught school out by Fresno. She 
and all her neighbors had swamp coolers. They seemed to work just great.

  --

  bp

  part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



  On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:22?PM  wrote:

It is 100 outside and 75 inside.  

22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.  
16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.  

All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.  
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Ken Hohhof]

We know what it means when someone calls you a dim bulb, but what about wet 
bulb? Original Message From: chuck@go-mtc.comSent: 7/12/2024 2:14:31 
PMTo: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling




https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/wet-bulb
?
?


?

From: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2024 9:34 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling
?



You do need to do annual maintenance prior to start up each year.
?
?


?

From: Robert 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2024 7:15 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling
?
And they last a long time, with just a little 
work...https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/07/07/nearly-90-years-old-wyomings-first-air-conditioner-still-works/
On 7/11/24 4:47 PM, Bill Prince wrote:

  Yeah. Those swamp coolers are the hot ticket (pun intended) in 
  the central valley here in California. 
  ?
  In my early days here I dated a woman who taught school out by Fresno. 
  She and all her neighbors had swamp coolers. They seemed to work just 
  great.
  
  ?
  
  
  
  
  --bppart15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
  ?
  ?
  
  On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:22?PM  
  wrote:
  



It is 100 outside and 75 inside.? 
?
22,400 square feet of metal shop building.? All due to swamp 
cooling.? 
16% 
humidity outdoors 75% indoors.? 
?
All for 
the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.? 
-- AF mailing 
listAF@af.afmug.comhttp://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
   


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[chuck]

https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/wet-bulb



From: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2024 9:34 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

You do need to do annual maintenance prior to start up each year.



From: Robert 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2024 7:15 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

And they last a long time, with just a little work...

https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/07/07/nearly-90-years-old-wyomings-first-air-conditioner-still-works/



On 7/11/24 4:47 PM, Bill Prince wrote:

  Yeah. Those swamp coolers are the hot ticket (pun intended) in the central 
valley here in California. 

  In my early days here I dated a woman who taught school out by Fresno. She 
and all her neighbors had swamp coolers. They seemed to work just great.

  --

  bp

  part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



  On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:22 PM  wrote:

It is 100 outside and 75 inside.  

22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.  
16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.  

All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.  
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[chuck]

You do need to do annual maintenance prior to start up each year.



From: Robert 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2024 7:15 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

And they last a long time, with just a little work...

https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/07/07/nearly-90-years-old-wyomings-first-air-conditioner-still-works/



On 7/11/24 4:47 PM, Bill Prince wrote:

  Yeah. Those swamp coolers are the hot ticket (pun intended) in the central 
valley here in California. 

  In my early days here I dated a woman who taught school out by Fresno. She 
and all her neighbors had swamp coolers. They seemed to work just great.

  --

  bp

  part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



  On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:22 PM  wrote:

It is 100 outside and 75 inside.  

22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.  
16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.  

All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.  
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


   





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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Bill Prince]

Contrary to the name, you do NOT want to live near a swamp to use one.
--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 7:27 AM Trey Scarborough  wrote:

> Yeah tell me about it my swamp cooler for my shop only works when its
> loaded with 60lbs of Ice...
> On 7/11/24 5:15 PM, Cameron Crum wrote:
>
> Must be nice to have a dry climate. They don't work so well in TX.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:22 PM  wrote:
>
>> It is 100 outside and 75 inside.
>>
>> 22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.
>> 16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.
>>
>> All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
> --
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Trey Scarborough]

Yeah tell me about it my swamp cooler for my shop only works when its 
loaded with 60lbs of Ice...


On 7/11/24 5:15 PM, Cameron Crum wrote:

Must be nice to have a dry climate. They don't work so well in TX.


On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:22 PM > wrote:


It is 100 outside and 75 inside.
22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.
16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.
All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of
water.
-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Robert]

And they last a long time, with just a little work...

https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/07/07/nearly-90-years-old-wyomings-first-air-conditioner-still-works/


On 7/11/24 4:47 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
Yeah. Those swamp coolers are the hot ticket (pun intended) in the 
central valley here in California.


In my early days here I dated a woman who taught school out by Fresno. 
She and all her neighbors had swamp coolers. They seemed to work just 
great.


--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:22 PM  wrote:

It is 100 outside and 75 inside.
22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.
16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.
All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of
water.
-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[chuck]

Yeah, you sure cannot pump this air into a closed box.  

We open up our big roll up doors a few feet each morning when they turn on all 
the swampers.  At night we leave one on to pre chill the building.  It vents 
back through the two units that are off as well as the paint booth.  


From: Dan P via AF 
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 6:54 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Dan P 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

103 outside this after the wetwall, 20ish thousand cfm on this guy.   Only 
gotcha is must have good exhaust or it gets too humid inside 




From: AF  on behalf of ch...@go-mtc.com 

Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 3:16:55 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling 

It is 100 outside and 75 inside.  

22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.  
16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.  

All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.  



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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Bill Prince]

One of the things I found odd when I first moved here was that clouds
almost never happen in the summer (keyword "almost")


--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:57 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Unless it clouds up and gets muggy.
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 11, 2024, at 5:47 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:
>
> 
> Yeah. Those swamp coolers are the hot ticket (pun intended) in the central
> valley here in California.
>
> In my early days here I dated a woman who taught school out by Fresno. She
> and all her neighbors had swamp coolers. They seemed to work just great.
>
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:22 PM  wrote:
>
>> It is 100 outside and 75 inside.
>>
>> 22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.
>> 16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.
>>
>> All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Dan P via AF]

Yeah  those few monsoon times = really bad for evap,  also I have to assume 
this could be a evap problem as cooling towers end up with it from time to time 
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/legionnaires-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20351747

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 5:56 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

Unless it clouds up and gets muggy.
Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 11, 2024, at 5:47 PM, Bill Prince 
mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Yeah. Those swamp coolers are the hot ticket (pun intended) in the central 
valley here in California.

In my early days here I dated a woman who taught school out by Fresno. She and 
all her neighbors had swamp coolers. They seemed to work just great.

--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:22 PM mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>> 
wrote:
It is 100 outside and 75 inside.

22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.
16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.

All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.
--
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AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Dan P via AF]

A  but you see they do -  
https://www.seeleyinternational.com/us/commercial/products/cooling/indirect-evaporative-air-conditioning-americas/

We bought some of these awhile back,  they are interesting units,   but you 
need good water or else the gum up quick.

There is also cooling towers which kind of do the same

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 6:08 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

They make them for cars too, or at least they used to.

Seems like you could combine an evaporative cooler with a heat exchanger so 
that the humidity would stay outside.

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Bill Prince
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 6:47 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

Yeah. Those swamp coolers are the hot ticket (pun intended) in the central 
valley here in California.

In my early days here I dated a woman who taught school out by Fresno. She and 
all her neighbors had swamp coolers. They seemed to work just great.

--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:22 PM mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>> 
wrote:
It is 100 outside and 75 inside.

22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.
16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.

All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.
--
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AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Ken Hohhof]

They make them for cars too, or at least they used to.

 

Seems like you could combine an evaporative cooler with a heat exchanger so 
that the humidity would stay outside.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 6:47 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

 

Yeah. Those swamp coolers are the hot ticket (pun intended) in the central 
valley here in California.

 

In my early days here I dated a woman who taught school out by Fresno. She and 
all her neighbors had swamp coolers. They seemed to work just great.




--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com

 

 

On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:22 PM mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> > 
wrote:

It is 100 outside and 75 inside.  

 

22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.  

16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.  

 

All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.  

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AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Chuck McCown]

Unless it clouds up and gets muggy.Sent from my iPhoneOn Jul 11, 2024, at 5:47 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:Yeah. Those swamp coolers are the hot ticket (pun intended) in the central valley here in California.In my early days here I dated a woman who taught school out by Fresno. She and all her neighbors had swamp coolers. They seemed to work just great.--bppart15sbs{at}gmail{dot}comOn Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:22 PM  wrote:



It is 100 outside and 75 inside.  
 
22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp 
cooling.  
16% humidity 
outdoors 75% indoors.  
 
All for the 
cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.  

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Bill Prince]

Yeah. Those swamp coolers are the hot ticket (pun intended) in the central
valley here in California.

In my early days here I dated a woman who taught school out by Fresno. She
and all her neighbors had swamp coolers. They seemed to work just great.

--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:22 PM  wrote:

> It is 100 outside and 75 inside.
>
> 22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.
> 16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.
>
> All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[chuck]

I used to think that a swamp cooler could get you down to the dew point.  But I 
learned it can only hit the wet bulb temperature.  
According to the interwebs:

The wet bulb temperature is higher than the dew point temperature. The wet bulb 
temperature represents the lowest possible temperature that can be reached 
through evaporative cooling, while the dew point temperature signifies the 
temperature at which air becomes saturated with water vapor.

Where I am at right now, the gov says the dew point is 70, wet bub is 87.  RH 
is 39.  But my shop is cooler than wet bulb.  So still not sure about these 
things.  



From: Tyson Burris 
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 5:12 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

There is a clear difference in dry heat environments and humid heat 
environments.

The corn and soybeans around here just make the humidity spike. The body can 
cool much easier in a desert environment as a result when compared to a high 
humidity environment. 

 

We have countless Harley riding trips in the Arizona and Nevada heat that 
exceed 100-degree days and it still felt more comfortable comparted to an 
85-degree day here with dew points in the 60s or higher. Hands down no 
comparison.

Both need hydration but here in Indiana you just can’t keep cool in those 
conditions.

 

I think our red rock hiking has exceed 115 at times.

 

 

  Tyson Burris 
  President & CEO 
  
 
  Internet Communications Inc (ICI)

  739 Commerce Dr. Franklin, IN 46131 

   

  317-412-1540 (emergency/after-hours) 
  317-738-0320 (office)
t...@franklinisp.net 
    www.surfici.net 

   


 

 

Fixed Wireless Broadband - PtP/PtMP Solutions – Indoor/Oudoor Wifi - IP Cameras 
- Fiber – MDUs  

 

Active Member To The Following:

 

WISPA

NBBC

 

Confidentiality Notice: 

 

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended 
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If 
you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly 
prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender 
immediately and delete this email from your system.

 

No Binding Agreement:

 

This email is not a binding agreement or contract of any kind, unless it 
specifically states otherwise and expressly refers to a duly authorized 
agreement signed by both parties. Any views or opinions presented in this email 
are solely those of mine alone and do not necessarily represent those of the 
company. If you have any doubts about the validity or enforceability of any 
agreement or arrangement discussed in this email, please consult with an 
attorney.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 6:42 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

 

In Phoenix, during a 120 degree day, in the shade, with a breeze, it isn’t too 
bad.  You gotta have the shade and breeze though so you get some evaporative 
cooling from your sweat.  But yeah, hotter than hell.  I still think Florida 
sunshine is hotter than AZ.  

 

From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 4:35 PM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

 

What happened to the old saying “it’s not the heat, it’s the humidity”?

 

Actually, I hate both heat and humidity.  I would die if I had to live 
somewhere like Houston.  But the people in Phoenix who claim 120 degrees isn’t 
hot because “it’s a dry heat”, that’s a lot of crap.  If you go there, you find 
that nobody goes outside until the sun starts going down.  An underground house 
that also serves as a bomb shelter starts to make sense.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Cameron Crum
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 5:16 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

 

Must be nice to have a dry climate. They don't work so well in TX. 

 

 

On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:22 PM  wrote:

  It is 100 outside and 75 inside.  

   

  22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.  

  16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.  

   

  All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.  

  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Tyson Burris]

There is a clear difference in dry heat environments and humid heat 
environments.
The corn and soybeans around here just make the humidity spike. The body can 
cool much easier in a desert environment as a result when compared to a high 
humidity environment.

We have countless Harley riding trips in the Arizona and Nevada heat that 
exceed 100-degree days and it still felt more comfortable comparted to an 
85-degree day here with dew points in the 60s or higher. Hands down no 
comparison.
Both need hydration but here in Indiana you just can’t keep cool in those 
conditions.

I think our red rock hiking has exceed 115 at times.


Tyson Burris
President & CEO

Internet Communications Inc (ICI)
739 Commerce Dr. Franklin, IN 46131

[Mobile mobile-icon]317-412-1540 (emergency/after-hours)
[phone phone-icon]317-738-0320 (office)
[Email email-icon]  t...@franklinisp.net
[website website-icon]  www.surfici.net

[cid:image005.jpg@01DAD3C5.1588B5F0]

Fixed Wireless Broadband - PtP/PtMP Solutions – Indoor/Oudoor Wifi - IP Cameras 
- Fiber – MDUs

Active Member To The Following:

WISPA<http://www.wispa.org/>
NBBC<http://www.nbbc.coop/>

Confidentiality Notice:

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended 
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If 
you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly 
prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender 
immediately and delete this email from your system.

No Binding Agreement:

This email is not a binding agreement or contract of any kind, unless it 
specifically states otherwise and expressly refers to a duly authorized 
agreement signed by both parties. Any views or opinions presented in this email 
are solely those of mine alone and do not necessarily represent those of the 
company. If you have any doubts about the validity or enforceability of any 
agreement or arrangement discussed in this email, please consult with an 
attorney.

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 6:42 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

In Phoenix, during a 120 degree day, in the shade, with a breeze, it isn’t too 
bad.  You gotta have the shade and breeze though so you get some evaporative 
cooling from your sweat.  But yeah, hotter than hell.  I still think Florida 
sunshine is hotter than AZ.

From: Ken Hohhof
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 4:35 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

What happened to the old saying “it’s not the heat, it’s the humidity”?

Actually, I hate both heat and humidity.  I would die if I had to live 
somewhere like Houston.  But the people in Phoenix who claim 120 degrees isn’t 
hot because “it’s a dry heat”, that’s a lot of crap.  If you go there, you find 
that nobody goes outside until the sun starts going down.  An underground house 
that also serves as a bomb shelter starts to make sense.

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Cameron Crum
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 5:16 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

Must be nice to have a dry climate. They don't work so well in TX.


On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:22 PM mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>> 
wrote:
It is 100 outside and 75 inside.

22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.
16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.

All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.
--
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AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[chuck]

In Phoenix, during a 120 degree day, in the shade, with a breeze, it isn’t too 
bad.  You gotta have the shade and breeze though so you get some evaporative 
cooling from your sweat.  But yeah, hotter than hell.  I still think Florida 
sunshine is hotter than AZ.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 4:35 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

What happened to the old saying “it’s not the heat, it’s the humidity”?

 

Actually, I hate both heat and humidity.  I would die if I had to live 
somewhere like Houston.  But the people in Phoenix who claim 120 degrees isn’t 
hot because “it’s a dry heat”, that’s a lot of crap.  If you go there, you find 
that nobody goes outside until the sun starts going down.  An underground house 
that also serves as a bomb shelter starts to make sense.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Cameron Crum
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 5:16 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

 

Must be nice to have a dry climate. They don't work so well in TX. 

 

 

On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:22 PM  wrote:

  It is 100 outside and 75 inside.  

   

  22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.  

  16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.  

   

  All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.  

  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




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Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Ken Hohhof]

What happened to the old saying “it’s not the heat, it’s the humidity”?

 

Actually, I hate both heat and humidity.  I would die if I had to live 
somewhere like Houston.  But the people in Phoenix who claim 120 degrees isn’t 
hot because “it’s a dry heat”, that’s a lot of crap.  If you go there, you find 
that nobody goes outside until the sun starts going down.  An underground house 
that also serves as a bomb shelter starts to make sense.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Cameron Crum
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 5:16 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

 

Must be nice to have a dry climate. They don't work so well in TX. 

 

 

On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:22 PM mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> > 
wrote:

It is 100 outside and 75 inside.  

 

22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.  

16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.  

 

All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.  

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Cameron Crum]

Must be nice to have a dry climate. They don't work so well in TX.


On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 4:22 PM  wrote:

> It is 100 outside and 75 inside.
>
> 22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.
> 16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.
>
> All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[chuck]

It is 100 outside and 75 inside.  

22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.  
16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.  

All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of water.  -- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[chuck]

I am guessing there are some CPA type of ethics rules for companies managing 
blind trusts.  But I really don’t know much about them.  

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 8:28 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

Is it blind if it's your kids managing it?



bp
On 7/8/2024 10:03 AM, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:

  I doubt they would ever go for that but I do think their investments need to 
be managed by a blind trust.  



  From: Steve Jones 
  Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 10:33 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

  Id support it to a degree for basic care and privatized insurance for 
everything else. but there would have to be fat cut from the national budget 
and I dont see that ever happening, Would have the caveat that no politician 
can hold any private investments in any company, they have to liquidate and 
place their money in a 1% federally insured account for the duration of their 
office. 

  It would never work here, too much grift. 




  On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 11:15 AM  wrote:

I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that it is 
right around the corner for me.  
My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer.  Spent a week in a 
hospital there until I arranged a jail break.  Paid absolutely nothing.  


From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be if 
they saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in communications & IT 
for 24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical linesman instead then I’d be 
only a few years from retirement.  They are doing hard--and sometimes 
dangerous—work, but they are getting paid big bucks to do it.  People in master 
mechanics programs are also cleaning house right now.  



I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you about 
things, but not how to do things.  Sometimes you do need that background about 
the topic to be good at doing it, and other times it really didn’t matter.  
It’s also clear to me that what you get out of college is proportional to what 
you put into it (and I suppose that’s true of life in general), so if someone 
is going to college because it’s expected of them and not because of a real 
interest in the subject then their outcome will be less optimal than if they 
did something they actually liked or at least found engaging.  



To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with that, 
and it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me that funding 
only STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling people what jobs they 
can have.  Au contraire, the economy is telling people what jobs they can have, 
and this would just be allocating funding according to economic reality.  You 
can get a degree in chemical engineering and still become an English teacher if 
you happen to be good at that subject, and that’s what you really want to do, 
but you’d also have another marketable set of knowledge you can use in other 
contexts. 



I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative (a 
moderate one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with universal 
healthcare.  Let’s do it.  Forget the bleeding heart arguments about it, just 
look at the economic realities.  

1) The systems in other countries result in less health care spending per 
capita.  

2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses and 
startups are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’ health 
insurance.  Here they have to offer insurance to be competitive in the labor 
market, and it’s a major hurdle for having success with a business.  

3) We already put about as much public money per capita into covering 
people’s medical bills as other countries do, and we’re only covering a portion 
of people with specific circumstances.  Either get all meddling fingers out of 
it and let the market figure out what to do, or go all in and rebuild the 
system so it works.  We’re one foot in and one foot out right now and it’s 
brutally expensive and by many metrics it’s not all that effective.  I know 
some would argue more in favor of letting the market handle it, but recall that 
we’ve done that before and we had quacks calling themselves doctors and selling 
all kinds of bullshit to people.  I’m thinking back when Coca-Cola contained 
cocaine and was sold as a medicine.  If you let the market run the show 
completely then you have to accept bad outcomes along with the good ones.  
Civil court didn’t fix it all then, and I don’t see why it would now either.



-Adam





From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2024 7:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holiday

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Bill Prince]

Is it blind if it's your kids managing it?


bp


On 7/8/2024 10:03 AM, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:
I doubt they would ever go for that but I do think their investments 
need to be managed by a blind trust.

*From:* Steve Jones
*Sent:* Monday, July 8, 2024 10:33 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays
Id support it to a degree for basic care and privatized insurance for 
everything else. but there would have to be fat cut from the national 
budget and I dont see that ever happening, Would have the caveat that 
no politician can hold any private investments in any company, they 
have to liquidate and place their money in a 1% federally insured 
account for the duration of their office.

It would never work here, too much grift.
On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 11:15 AM  wrote:

I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that
it is right around the corner for me.
My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer.  Spent a week
in a hospital there until I arranged a jail break.  Paid
absolutely nothing.
*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not
be if they saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in
communications & IT for 24 years, but if I’d started as an
electrical linesman instead then I’d be only a few years from
retirement.  They are doing hard--and sometimes dangerous—work,
but they are getting paid big bucks to do it.  People in master
mechanics programs are also cleaning house right now.

I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you
/about/ things, but not how to /do/ things.  Sometimes you do need
that background about the topic to be good at doing it, and other
times it really didn’t matter.  It’s also clear to me that what
you get out of college is proportional to what you put into it
(and I suppose that’s true of life in general), so if someone is
going to college because it’s expected of them and not because of
a real interest in the subject then their outcome will be less
optimal than if they did something they actually liked or at least
found engaging.

To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly
with that, and it’s something I’ve said in other forums. Someone
told me that funding only STEM degrees is equivalent to the
government telling people what jobs they can have. Au contraire,
the /economy/ is telling people what jobs they can have, and this
would just be allocating funding according to economic reality.
You can get a degree in chemical engineering and still become an
English teacher if you happen to be good at that subject, and
that’s what you really want to do, but you’d also have another
marketable set of knowledge you can use in other contexts.

I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative
(a moderate one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with
universal healthcare.  Let’s do it. Forget the bleeding heart
arguments about it, just look at the economic realities.

1) The systems in other countries result in less health care
spending per capita.

2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses
and startups are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’
health insurance.  Here they have to offer insurance to be
competitive in the labor market, and it’s a major hurdle for
having success with a business.

3) We /already/ put about as much public money per capita into
covering people’s medical bills as other countries do, and we’re
only covering a portion of people with specific circumstances. 
Either get all meddling fingers out of it and let the market
figure out what to do, or go all in and rebuild the system so it
works. We’re one foot in and one foot out right now and it’s
brutally expensive and by many metrics it’s not all that
effective.  I know some would argue more in favor of letting the
market handle it, but recall that we’ve done that before and we
had quacks calling themselves doctors and selling all kinds of
bullshit to people.  I’m thinking back when Coca-Cola contained
cocaine and was sold as a medicine.  If you let the market run the
show completely then you have to accept bad outcomes along with
the good ones.  Civil court didn’t fix it all then, and I don’t
see why it would now either.

-Adam

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Friday, July 05, 2024 7:24 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher
education. More as an investment than as an expe

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Steve Jones]

they can choose to love their country or their investments.


On Mon, Jul 8, 2024, 12:09 PM  wrote:

> I doubt they would ever go for that but I do think their investments need
> to be managed by a blind trust.
>
>
>
> *From:* Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Monday, July 8, 2024 10:33 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays
>
> Id support it to a degree for basic care and privatized insurance for
> everything else. but there would have to be fat cut from the national
> budget and I dont see that ever happening, Would have the caveat that no
> politician can hold any private investments in any company, they have to
> liquidate and place their money in a 1% federally insured account for the
> duration of their office.
>
> It would never work here, too much grift.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 11:15 AM  wrote:
>
>> I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that it is
>> right around the corner for me.
>> My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer.  Spent a week in a
>> hospital there until I arranged a jail break.  Paid absolutely nothing.
>>
>>
>> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays
>>
>>
>> To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be if
>> they saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in communications &
>> IT for 24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical linesman instead then
>> I’d be only a few years from retirement.  They are doing hard--and
>> sometimes dangerous—work, but they are getting paid big bucks to do it.
>> People in master mechanics programs are also cleaning house right now.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you *about*
>> things, but not how to *do* things.  Sometimes you do need that
>> background about the topic to be good at doing it, and other times it
>> really didn’t matter.  It’s also clear to me that what you get out of
>> college is proportional to what you put into it (and I suppose that’s true
>> of life in general), so if someone is going to college because it’s
>> expected of them and not because of a real interest in the subject then
>> their outcome will be less optimal than if they did something they actually
>> liked or at least found engaging.
>>
>>
>>
>> To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with
>> that, and it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me that
>> funding only STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling people
>> what jobs they can have.  Au contraire, the *economy* is telling people
>> what jobs they can have, and this would just be allocating funding
>> according to economic reality.  You can get a degree in chemical
>> engineering and still become an English teacher if you happen to be good at
>> that subject, and that’s what you really want to do, but you’d also have
>> another marketable set of knowledge you can use in other contexts.
>>
>>
>>
>> I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative (a
>> moderate one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with universal
>> healthcare.  Let’s do it.  Forget the bleeding heart arguments about it,
>> just look at the economic realities.
>>
>> 1) The systems in other countries result in less health care spending per
>> capita.
>>
>> 2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses and
>> startups are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’ health
>> insurance.  Here they have to offer insurance to be competitive in the
>> labor market, and it’s a major hurdle for having success with a business.
>>
>> 3) We *already* put about as much public money per capita into covering
>> people’s medical bills as other countries do, and we’re only covering a
>> portion of people with specific circumstances.  Either get all meddling
>> fingers out of it and let the market figure out what to do, or go all in
>> and rebuild the system so it works.  We’re one foot in and one foot out
>> right now and it’s brutally expensive and by many metrics it’s not all that
>> effective.  I know some would argue more in favor of letting the market
>> handle it, but recall that we’ve done that before and we had quacks calling
>> themselves doctors and selling all kinds of bullshit to people.  I’m
>> thinking back when Coca-Cola contained cocaine and was sold as a medicine.
>> If you let the market 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Bill Prince]

Well, I'm 74 (got you by 1 Ken), and am also on Medicare (Advantage), 
and I would say my experience has been quite different from Ken's.


I don't know if it's a regional thing, or the organization, or the type 
of care we selected. We are signed on to a health care organization, and 
utilize their HMO (Health Maintenance Organization). They are very 
automated, and send us reminders regularly for immunizations, checkups, 
and so on. If my primary thinks I need labs for something, he puts in an 
order, and I can stop anywhere nearby to get the labs done. When I go in 
for labs or an appointment, my wait time is typically 5 minutes and 
sometimes less. I have gone in for a lab test, had it done, and out of 
the building in less than 5 minutes. The staff and physicians with only 
one or two exceptions have all been kind and helpful.


Coincidentally,  I also had a hernia operation done about 18 months ago. 
I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but this operation kind of blew 
my mind from an efficiency and speed point of view. I went in at roughly 
7AM, they had me prepped in about an hour, the procedure took less than 
an hour, another 30 minutes for recovery, and I was "outa there".  The 
surgeon told me beforehand that he would not use general anesthesia, but 
instead a "local" and a mild sedative. I guess they used enough sedative 
to put me (sort of) to sleep, but it was light enough that I was awake 
and alert before I left the OR. Because they used no stiches (they glued 
me together), I had virtually no pain, and was able to walk right away. 
Even though they'd given me some serious pain meds, I didn't require any 
of them. Quite remarkable overall.



bp


On 7/8/2024 11:15 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


Are you talking about Medicare, or something else?

I’m 73 and have been on Medicare (Advantage) for several years.  My 
opinion of it isn’t great.  I’m not blaming government or private 
healthcare or insurance companies, and I’m not ready to join Bernie 
and call for single payer, but the system is broken.


I think the problem is the combination of government paying but 
private companies getting the money and dictating the care.  My 
experience is at least half the time patient care is not the 
objective, it’s maximizing the money from Medicare. (Private health 
insurance also has a similar problem.)  You as the patient are not the 
customer, you are a means to an end.


If Medicare will pay for something, you are getting it whether you 
want or need it or not.  And if Medicare doesn’t pay for it, you’re 
not getting it.  If the doctor or hospital has a new machine or 
treatment and Medicare (or insurance) can be billed for it, they will 
figure out a way for you to get that procedure or treatment.  If there 
are multiple treatments for something you’ve got (like surgery, chemo, 
radiation), expect the various specialists to fight over who gets the 
money, and you can be left feeling nobody cares what’s best for you.  
When you are discharged, they will try to order things like 
wheelchairs to your house from medical supply places that charge the 
maximum Medicare will pay, even if you can get them yourself for half 
the price, even if you don’t need one, the only question is whether 
the govt will pay for it (and don’t tell me they aren’t getting 
kickbacks from the medical supply place).  And god forbid the best 
treatment is a lifestyle change because they don’t get paid for that.  
Nope, order a procedure or write a prescription.  You’ll also find 
that anything like surgery is an opportunity to run a bunch of blood 
tests and other tests so they can refer you to other specialists in 
their practice so they can bill for more things.


I have a more positive opinion of doctors that fix specific things, 
like orthopedic surgeons.  You have a problem, they fix it. I had 
hernia surgery about 10 years ago, no complaints, other than the pre 
surgery tests were an opportunity to find other things that Medicare 
might pay for.  Can’t blame the surgeon for that, he just doesn’t want 
you croaking on the operating table because you have a heart 
condition.  And the surgery was at a surgery center instead of a 
hospital. Given a choice I’ll always pick an urgent care facility or a 
surgery center, rather than a hospital or even worse an emergency 
room.  If you need stitches, go to urgent care not the emergency 
room.  You’ll get stitched up quicker and the emergency room will just 
have a med tech do it anyway while the doctor on call sits at the 
nurses station filling out paperwork on the computer.  (Am I being 
naïve assuming the doctor is doing paperwork not playing games?)


*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
*Sent:* Monday, July 8, 2024 11:10 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that it is 
right around the corne

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Ken Hohhof]

I remember quite a few years ago being sick while on vacation somewhere like 
Colorado and going to a local doctor.  He said you just have a bad flu, which 
is a virus so I can write you a prescription for an antibiotic but it won’t 
help.  He seemed surprised when I declined the prescription.  Apparently most 
people want a prescription even after being told it won’t do anything.

 

My family had a similar experience when my wife took the kids to visit some 
friends who had moved to Australia.  My son got an infection and had to go to 
the doctor.  Same day appointment, here use this ointment, very modest charge 
compared to what we’d expect here.  Very different system.  I guess it was like 
an old episode of Marcus Welby MD.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Nate Burke
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 1:33 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

Your comments about 'New machines or treatments'  This is all can think of 
https://youtu.be/tKodtNFpzBA

"The Machine that goes 'Ping'"

On 7/8/2024 1:15 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

Are you talking about Medicare, or something else?

 

I’m 73 and have been on Medicare (Advantage) for several years.  My opinion of 
it isn’t great.  I’m not blaming government or private healthcare or insurance 
companies, and I’m not ready to join Bernie and call for single payer, but the 
system is broken.

 

I think the problem is the combination of government paying but private 
companies getting the money and dictating the care.  My experience is at least 
half the time patient care is not the objective, it’s maximizing the money from 
Medicare.  (Private health insurance also has a similar problem.)  You as the 
patient are not the customer, you are a means to an end.

 

If Medicare will pay for something, you are getting it whether you want or need 
it or not.  And if Medicare doesn’t pay for it, you’re not getting it.  If the 
doctor or hospital has a new machine or treatment and Medicare (or insurance) 
can be billed for it, they will figure out a way for you to get that procedure 
or treatment.  If there are multiple treatments for something you’ve got (like 
surgery, chemo, radiation), expect the various specialists to fight over who 
gets the money, and you can be left feeling nobody cares what’s best for you.  
When you are discharged, they will try to order things like wheelchairs to your 
house from medical supply places that charge the maximum Medicare will pay, 
even if you can get them yourself for half the price, even if you don’t need 
one, the only question is whether the govt will pay for it (and don’t tell me 
they aren’t getting kickbacks from the medical supply place).  And god forbid 
the best treatment is a lifestyle change because they don’t get paid for that.  
Nope, order a procedure or write a prescription.  You’ll also find that 
anything like surgery is an opportunity to run a bunch of blood tests and other 
tests so they can refer you to other specialists in their practice so they can 
bill for more things.

 

I have a more positive opinion of doctors that fix specific things, like 
orthopedic surgeons.  You have a problem, they fix it.  I had hernia surgery 
about 10 years ago, no complaints, other than the pre surgery tests were an 
opportunity to find other things that Medicare might pay for.  Can’t blame the 
surgeon for that, he just doesn’t want you croaking on the operating table 
because you have a heart condition.  And the surgery was at a surgery center 
instead of a hospital.  Given a choice I’ll always pick an urgent care facility 
or a surgery center, rather than a hospital or even worse an emergency room.  
If you need stitches, go to urgent care not the emergency room.  You’ll get 
stitched up quicker and the emergency room will just have a med tech do it 
anyway while the doctor on call sits at the nurses station filling out 
paperwork on the computer.  (Am I being naïve assuming the doctor is doing 
paperwork not playing games?)

 

 

From: AF  <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>  On Behalf 
Of ch...@go-mtc.com <mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 11:10 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'  <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that it is right 
around the corner for me.  

My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer.  Spent a week in a 
hospital there until I arranged a jail break.  Paid absolutely nothing.  

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>  

Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be if they 
saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in communications & IT for 
24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical linesman instead then I’d be onl

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Nate Burke]

Your comments about 'New machines or treatments'  This is all can think 
of https://youtu.be/tKodtNFpzBA


"The Machine that goes 'Ping'"

On 7/8/2024 1:15 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


Are you talking about Medicare, or something else?

I’m 73 and have been on Medicare (Advantage) for several years.  My 
opinion of it isn’t great.  I’m not blaming government or private 
healthcare or insurance companies, and I’m not ready to join Bernie 
and call for single payer, but the system is broken.


I think the problem is the combination of government paying but 
private companies getting the money and dictating the care.  My 
experience is at least half the time patient care is not the 
objective, it’s maximizing the money from Medicare. (Private health 
insurance also has a similar problem.)  You as the patient are not the 
customer, you are a means to an end.


If Medicare will pay for something, you are getting it whether you 
want or need it or not.  And if Medicare doesn’t pay for it, you’re 
not getting it.  If the doctor or hospital has a new machine or 
treatment and Medicare (or insurance) can be billed for it, they will 
figure out a way for you to get that procedure or treatment.  If there 
are multiple treatments for something you’ve got (like surgery, chemo, 
radiation), expect the various specialists to fight over who gets the 
money, and you can be left feeling nobody cares what’s best for you.  
When you are discharged, they will try to order things like 
wheelchairs to your house from medical supply places that charge the 
maximum Medicare will pay, even if you can get them yourself for half 
the price, even if you don’t need one, the only question is whether 
the govt will pay for it (and don’t tell me they aren’t getting 
kickbacks from the medical supply place).  And god forbid the best 
treatment is a lifestyle change because they don’t get paid for that.  
Nope, order a procedure or write a prescription.  You’ll also find 
that anything like surgery is an opportunity to run a bunch of blood 
tests and other tests so they can refer you to other specialists in 
their practice so they can bill for more things.


I have a more positive opinion of doctors that fix specific things, 
like orthopedic surgeons.  You have a problem, they fix it. I had 
hernia surgery about 10 years ago, no complaints, other than the pre 
surgery tests were an opportunity to find other things that Medicare 
might pay for.  Can’t blame the surgeon for that, he just doesn’t want 
you croaking on the operating table because you have a heart 
condition.  And the surgery was at a surgery center instead of a 
hospital. Given a choice I’ll always pick an urgent care facility or a 
surgery center, rather than a hospital or even worse an emergency 
room.  If you need stitches, go to urgent care not the emergency 
room.  You’ll get stitched up quicker and the emergency room will just 
have a med tech do it anyway while the doctor on call sits at the 
nurses station filling out paperwork on the computer.  (Am I being 
naïve assuming the doctor is doing paperwork not playing games?)


*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
*Sent:* Monday, July 8, 2024 11:10 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that it is 
right around the corner for me.


My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer. Spent a week in a 
hospital there until I arranged a jail break.  Paid absolutely nothing.


*From:*dmmoff...@gmail.com

*Sent:*Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM

*To:*'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be 
if they saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in 
communications & IT for 24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical 
linesman instead then I’d be only a few years from retirement.  They 
are doing hard--and sometimes dangerous—work, but they are getting 
paid big bucks to do it.  People in master mechanics programs are also 
cleaning house right now.


I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you 
/about/ things, but not how to /do/ things.  Sometimes you do need 
that background about the topic to be good at doing it, and other 
times it really didn’t matter. It’s also clear to me that what you get 
out of college is proportional to what you put into it (and I suppose 
that’s true of life in general), so if someone is going to college 
because it’s expected of them and not because of a real interest in 
the subject then their outcome will be less optimal than if they did 
something they actually liked or at least found engaging.


To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with 
that, and it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me 
that funding only STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telli

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Ken Hohhof]

Are you talking about Medicare, or something else?

 

I’m 73 and have been on Medicare (Advantage) for several years.  My opinion of 
it isn’t great.  I’m not blaming government or private healthcare or insurance 
companies, and I’m not ready to join Bernie and call for single payer, but the 
system is broken.

 

I think the problem is the combination of government paying but private 
companies getting the money and dictating the care.  My experience is at least 
half the time patient care is not the objective, it’s maximizing the money from 
Medicare.  (Private health insurance also has a similar problem.)  You as the 
patient are not the customer, you are a means to an end.

 

If Medicare will pay for something, you are getting it whether you want or need 
it or not.  And if Medicare doesn’t pay for it, you’re not getting it.  If the 
doctor or hospital has a new machine or treatment and Medicare (or insurance) 
can be billed for it, they will figure out a way for you to get that procedure 
or treatment.  If there are multiple treatments for something you’ve got (like 
surgery, chemo, radiation), expect the various specialists to fight over who 
gets the money, and you can be left feeling nobody cares what’s best for you.  
When you are discharged, they will try to order things like wheelchairs to your 
house from medical supply places that charge the maximum Medicare will pay, 
even if you can get them yourself for half the price, even if you don’t need 
one, the only question is whether the govt will pay for it (and don’t tell me 
they aren’t getting kickbacks from the medical supply place).  And god forbid 
the best treatment is a lifestyle change because they don’t get paid for that.  
Nope, order a procedure or write a prescription.  You’ll also find that 
anything like surgery is an opportunity to run a bunch of blood tests and other 
tests so they can refer you to other specialists in their practice so they can 
bill for more things.

 

I have a more positive opinion of doctors that fix specific things, like 
orthopedic surgeons.  You have a problem, they fix it.  I had hernia surgery 
about 10 years ago, no complaints, other than the pre surgery tests were an 
opportunity to find other things that Medicare might pay for.  Can’t blame the 
surgeon for that, he just doesn’t want you croaking on the operating table 
because you have a heart condition.  And the surgery was at a surgery center 
instead of a hospital.  Given a choice I’ll always pick an urgent care facility 
or a surgery center, rather than a hospital or even worse an emergency room.  
If you need stitches, go to urgent care not the emergency room.  You’ll get 
stitched up quicker and the emergency room will just have a med tech do it 
anyway while the doctor on call sits at the nurses station filling out 
paperwork on the computer.  (Am I being naïve assuming the doctor is doing 
paperwork not playing games?)

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 11:10 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that it is right 
around the corner for me.  

My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer.  Spent a week in a 
hospital there until I arranged a jail break.  Paid absolutely nothing.  

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>  

Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be if they 
saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in communications & IT for 
24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical linesman instead then I’d be only 
a few years from retirement.  They are doing hard--and sometimes 
dangerous—work, but they are getting paid big bucks to do it.  People in master 
mechanics programs are also cleaning house right now.  

 

I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you about things, 
but not how to do things.  Sometimes you do need that background about the 
topic to be good at doing it, and other times it really didn’t matter.  It’s 
also clear to me that what you get out of college is proportional to what you 
put into it (and I suppose that’s true of life in general), so if someone is 
going to college because it’s expected of them and not because of a real 
interest in the subject then their outcome will be less optimal than if they 
did something they actually liked or at least found engaging.  

 

To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with that, and 
it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me that funding only 
STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling people what jobs they can 
have.  Au contraire, the economy is telling people what jobs they can have, and 
this would just be allocating funding according

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Mike Hammett]

I heard (unverified) that COngress is immune from those laws that regulate our 
insider trading. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 12:41:08 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays 



Right. I recently heard that the US Congress persons on average out performs 
hedge funds by about 13%. Presumably it’s not populated with stock trading 
experts. 
I wonder what prevents the SEC from vigorously investigating them. Maybe they 
do and it’s just not provable. 




From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com 
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2024 1:04 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays 




I doubt they would ever go for that but I do think their investments need to be 
managed by a blind trust. 










From: Steve Jones 

Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 10:33 AM 

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays 




Id support it to a degree for basic care and privatized insurance for 
everything else. but there would have to be fat cut from the national budget 
and I dont see that ever happening, Would have the caveat that no politician 
can hold any private investments in any company, they have to liquidate and 
place their money in a 1% federally insured account for the duration of their 
office. 



It would never work here, too much grift. 








On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 11:15 AM < ch...@go-mtc.com > wrote: 







I am all for nationalized health care. But I am old enough that it is right 
around the corner for me. 

My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer. Spent a week in a hospital 
there until I arranged a jail break. Paid absolutely nothing. 








From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 

Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM 

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays 




To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be if they 
saw what some of the trades are making. I’ve been in communications & IT for 24 
years, but if I’d started as an electrical linesman instead then I’d be only a 
few years from retirement. They are doing hard--and sometimes dangerous—work, 
but they are getting paid big bucks to do it. People in master mechanics 
programs are also cleaning house right now. 

I have a CIS degree. My experience is that college teaches you about things, 
but not how to do things. Sometimes you do need that background about the topic 
to be good at doing it, and other times it really didn’t matter. It’s also 
clear to me that what you get out of college is proportional to what you put 
into it (and I suppose that’s true of life in general), so if someone is going 
to college because it’s expected of them and not because of a real interest in 
the subject then their outcome will be less optimal than if they did something 
they actually liked or at least found engaging. 

To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with that, and 
it’s something I’ve said in other forums. Someone told me that funding only 
STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling people what jobs they can 
have. Au contraire, the economy is telling people what jobs they can have, and 
this would just be allocating funding according to economic reality. You can 
get a degree in chemical engineering and still become an English teacher if you 
happen to be good at that subject, and that’s what you really want to do, but 
you’d also have another marketable set of knowledge you can use in other 
contexts. 

I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative (a moderate 
one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with universal healthcare. 
Let’s do it. Forget the bleeding heart arguments about it, just look at the 
economic realities. 
1) The systems in other countries result in less health care spending per 
capita. 
2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses and startups 
are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’ health insurance. Here 
they have to offer insurance to be competitive in the labor market, and it’s a 
major hurdle for having success with a business. 
3) We already put about as much public money per capita into covering people’s 
medical bills as other countries do, and we’re only covering a portion of 
people with specific circumstances. Either get all meddling fingers out of it 
and let the market figure out what to do, or go all in and rebuild the system 
so it works. We’re one foot in and one foot out right now and it’s brutally 
expensive and by many metrics it’s not all that effective. I know some would 
argue more in favor of letting the market handle it, but recall that we’ve done 
that before and we had quacks calling themselves doctors and selling all kinds 
of bullshit to peopl

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[dmmoffett]

Right.  I recently heard that the US Congress persons on average out performs 
hedge funds by about 13%.  Presumably it’s not populated with stock trading 
experts.

I wonder what prevents the SEC from vigorously investigating them.  Maybe they 
do and it’s just not provable.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2024 1:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

I doubt they would ever go for that but I do think their investments need to be 
managed by a blind trust.  

 

 

 

From: Steve Jones 

Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 10:33 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

Id support it to a degree for basic care and privatized insurance for 
everything else. but there would have to be fat cut from the national budget 
and I dont see that ever happening, Would have the caveat that no politician 
can hold any private investments in any company, they have to liquidate and 
place their money in a 1% federally insured account for the duration of their 
office. 

 

It would never work here, too much grift. 

 

 

 

On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 11:15 AM mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> > 
wrote:

I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that it is right 
around the corner for me.  

My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer.  Spent a week in a 
hospital there until I arranged a jail break.  Paid absolutely nothing.  

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>  

Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be if they 
saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in communications & IT for 
24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical linesman instead then I’d be only 
a few years from retirement.  They are doing hard--and sometimes 
dangerous—work, but they are getting paid big bucks to do it.  People in master 
mechanics programs are also cleaning house right now.  

 

I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you about things, 
but not how to do things.  Sometimes you do need that background about the 
topic to be good at doing it, and other times it really didn’t matter.  It’s 
also clear to me that what you get out of college is proportional to what you 
put into it (and I suppose that’s true of life in general), so if someone is 
going to college because it’s expected of them and not because of a real 
interest in the subject then their outcome will be less optimal than if they 
did something they actually liked or at least found engaging.  

 

To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with that, and 
it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me that funding only 
STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling people what jobs they can 
have.  Au contraire, the economy is telling people what jobs they can have, and 
this would just be allocating funding according to economic reality.  You can 
get a degree in chemical engineering and still become an English teacher if you 
happen to be good at that subject, and that’s what you really want to do, but 
you’d also have another marketable set of knowledge you can use in other 
contexts. 

 

I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative (a moderate 
one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with universal healthcare.  
Let’s do it.  Forget the bleeding heart arguments about it, just look at the 
economic realities.  

1) The systems in other countries result in less health care spending per 
capita.  

2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses and startups 
are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’ health insurance.  Here 
they have to offer insurance to be competitive in the labor market, and it’s a 
major hurdle for having success with a business.  

3) We already put about as much public money per capita into covering people’s 
medical bills as other countries do, and we’re only covering a portion of 
people with specific circumstances.  Either get all meddling fingers out of it 
and let the market figure out what to do, or go all in and rebuild the system 
so it works.  We’re one foot in and one foot out right now and it’s brutally 
expensive and by many metrics it’s not all that effective.  I know some would 
argue more in favor of letting the market handle it, but recall that we’ve done 
that before and we had quacks calling themselves doctors and selling all kinds 
of bullshit to people.  I’m thinking back when Coca-Cola contained cocaine and 
was sold as a medicine.  If you let the market run the show completely then you 
have to accept bad outcomes along with the good ones.  Civil court didn’t fix 
it all then, and I don’t see why it would now either.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[chuck]

I doubt they would ever go for that but I do think their investments need to be 
managed by a blind trust.  



From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 10:33 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

Id support it to a degree for basic care and privatized insurance for 
everything else. but there would have to be fat cut from the national budget 
and I dont see that ever happening, Would have the caveat that no politician 
can hold any private investments in any company, they have to liquidate and 
place their money in a 1% federally insured account for the duration of their 
office. 

It would never work here, too much grift. 




On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 11:15 AM  wrote:

  I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that it is right 
around the corner for me.  
  My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer.  Spent a week in a 
hospital there until I arranged a jail break.  Paid absolutely nothing.  


  From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
  Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM
  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

  To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be if they 
saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in communications & IT for 
24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical linesman instead then I’d be only 
a few years from retirement.  They are doing hard--and sometimes 
dangerous—work, but they are getting paid big bucks to do it.  People in master 
mechanics programs are also cleaning house right now.  



  I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you about things, 
but not how to do things.  Sometimes you do need that background about the 
topic to be good at doing it, and other times it really didn’t matter.  It’s 
also clear to me that what you get out of college is proportional to what you 
put into it (and I suppose that’s true of life in general), so if someone is 
going to college because it’s expected of them and not because of a real 
interest in the subject then their outcome will be less optimal than if they 
did something they actually liked or at least found engaging.  



  To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with that, 
and it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me that funding 
only STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling people what jobs they 
can have.  Au contraire, the economy is telling people what jobs they can have, 
and this would just be allocating funding according to economic reality.  You 
can get a degree in chemical engineering and still become an English teacher if 
you happen to be good at that subject, and that’s what you really want to do, 
but you’d also have another marketable set of knowledge you can use in other 
contexts. 



  I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative (a moderate 
one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with universal healthcare.  
Let’s do it.  Forget the bleeding heart arguments about it, just look at the 
economic realities.  

  1) The systems in other countries result in less health care spending per 
capita.  

  2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses and startups 
are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’ health insurance.  Here 
they have to offer insurance to be competitive in the labor market, and it’s a 
major hurdle for having success with a business.  

  3) We already put about as much public money per capita into covering 
people’s medical bills as other countries do, and we’re only covering a portion 
of people with specific circumstances.  Either get all meddling fingers out of 
it and let the market figure out what to do, or go all in and rebuild the 
system so it works.  We’re one foot in and one foot out right now and it’s 
brutally expensive and by many metrics it’s not all that effective.  I know 
some would argue more in favor of letting the market handle it, but recall that 
we’ve done that before and we had quacks calling themselves doctors and selling 
all kinds of bullshit to people.  I’m thinking back when Coca-Cola contained 
cocaine and was sold as a medicine.  If you let the market run the show 
completely then you have to accept bad outcomes along with the good ones.  
Civil court didn’t fix it all then, and I don’t see why it would now either.



  -Adam





  From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
  Sent: Friday, July 05, 2024 7:24 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays



  I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher education. 
More as an investment than as an expense



  remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history 
degree, you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per classroom 
instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community service only, 90% 
mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 pe

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[chuck]

I actually draw zero pay...  have for years.  

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

From: Robert 
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 10:28 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

& you probably make enough that it is going to cost extra...


On 7/8/24 9:10 AM, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:

  I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that it is right 
around the corner for me.  
  My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer.  Spent a week in a 
hospital there until I arranged a jail break.  Paid absolutely nothing.  


  From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
  Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM
  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

  To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be if they 
saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in communications & IT for 
24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical linesman instead then I’d be only 
a few years from retirement.  They are doing hard--and sometimes 
dangerous—work, but they are getting paid big bucks to do it.  People in master 
mechanics programs are also cleaning house right now.  

   

  I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you about things, 
but not how to do things.  Sometimes you do need that background about the 
topic to be good at doing it, and other times it really didn’t matter.  It’s 
also clear to me that what you get out of college is proportional to what you 
put into it (and I suppose that’s true of life in general), so if someone is 
going to college because it’s expected of them and not because of a real 
interest in the subject then their outcome will be less optimal than if they 
did something they actually liked or at least found engaging.  

   

  To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with that, 
and it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me that funding 
only STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling people what jobs they 
can have.  Au contraire, the economy is telling people what jobs they can have, 
and this would just be allocating funding according to economic reality.  You 
can get a degree in chemical engineering and still become an English teacher if 
you happen to be good at that subject, and that’s what you really want to do, 
but you’d also have another marketable set of knowledge you can use in other 
contexts. 

   

  I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative (a moderate 
one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with universal healthcare.  
Let’s do it.  Forget the bleeding heart arguments about it, just look at the 
economic realities.  

  1) The systems in other countries result in less health care spending per 
capita.  

  2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses and startups 
are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’ health insurance.  Here 
they have to offer insurance to be competitive in the labor market, and it’s a 
major hurdle for having success with a business.  

  3) We already put about as much public money per capita into covering 
people’s medical bills as other countries do, and we’re only covering a portion 
of people with specific circumstances.  Either get all meddling fingers out of 
it and let the market figure out what to do, or go all in and rebuild the 
system so it works.  We’re one foot in and one foot out right now and it’s 
brutally expensive and by many metrics it’s not all that effective.  I know 
some would argue more in favor of letting the market handle it, but recall that 
we’ve done that before and we had quacks calling themselves doctors and selling 
all kinds of bullshit to people.  I’m thinking back when Coca-Cola contained 
cocaine and was sold as a medicine.  If you let the market run the show 
completely then you have to accept bad outcomes along with the good ones.  
Civil court didn’t fix it all then, and I don’t see why it would now either.

   

  -Adam

   

   

  From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Steve Jones
  Sent: Friday, July 05, 2024 7:24 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

   

  I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher education. 
More as an investment than as an expense

   

  remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history 
degree, you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per classroom 
instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community service only, 90% 
mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 percent drug and alcohol 
abstinence during the school year, tested biweekly. Zero criminal tolerance. 
You pay on the loan until youve completed the mandatory community serv

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Steve Jones]

Id support it to a degree for basic care and privatized insurance for
everything else. but there would have to be fat cut from the national
budget and I dont see that ever happening, Would have the caveat that no
politician can hold any private investments in any company, they have to
liquidate and place their money in a 1% federally insured account for the
duration of their office.

It would never work here, too much grift.



On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 11:15 AM  wrote:

> I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that it is
> right around the corner for me.
> My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer.  Spent a week in a
> hospital there until I arranged a jail break.  Paid absolutely nothing.
>
>
> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
> *Sent:* Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays
>
>
> To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be if
> they saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in communications &
> IT for 24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical linesman instead then
> I’d be only a few years from retirement.  They are doing hard--and
> sometimes dangerous—work, but they are getting paid big bucks to do it.
> People in master mechanics programs are also cleaning house right now.
>
>
>
> I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you *about*
> things, but not how to *do* things.  Sometimes you do need that
> background about the topic to be good at doing it, and other times it
> really didn’t matter.  It’s also clear to me that what you get out of
> college is proportional to what you put into it (and I suppose that’s true
> of life in general), so if someone is going to college because it’s
> expected of them and not because of a real interest in the subject then
> their outcome will be less optimal than if they did something they actually
> liked or at least found engaging.
>
>
>
> To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with
> that, and it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me that
> funding only STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling people
> what jobs they can have.  Au contraire, the *economy* is telling people
> what jobs they can have, and this would just be allocating funding
> according to economic reality.  You can get a degree in chemical
> engineering and still become an English teacher if you happen to be good at
> that subject, and that’s what you really want to do, but you’d also have
> another marketable set of knowledge you can use in other contexts.
>
>
>
> I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative (a
> moderate one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with universal
> healthcare.  Let’s do it.  Forget the bleeding heart arguments about it,
> just look at the economic realities.
>
> 1) The systems in other countries result in less health care spending per
> capita.
>
> 2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses and
> startups are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’ health
> insurance.  Here they have to offer insurance to be competitive in the
> labor market, and it’s a major hurdle for having success with a business.
>
> 3) We *already* put about as much public money per capita into covering
> people’s medical bills as other countries do, and we’re only covering a
> portion of people with specific circumstances.  Either get all meddling
> fingers out of it and let the market figure out what to do, or go all in
> and rebuild the system so it works.  We’re one foot in and one foot out
> right now and it’s brutally expensive and by many metrics it’s not all that
> effective.  I know some would argue more in favor of letting the market
> handle it, but recall that we’ve done that before and we had quacks calling
> themselves doctors and selling all kinds of bullshit to people.  I’m
> thinking back when Coca-Cola contained cocaine and was sold as a medicine.
> If you let the market run the show completely then you have to accept bad
> outcomes along with the good ones.  Civil court didn’t fix it all then, and
> I don’t see why it would now either.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Friday, July 05, 2024 7:24 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays
>
>
>
> I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher
> education. More as an investment than as an expense
>
>
>
> remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history
> degree, you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per
> classroom instruct

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Robert]

& you probably make enough that it is going to cost extra...

On 7/8/24 9:10 AM, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:
I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that it is 
right around the corner for me.
My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer. Spent a week in a 
hospital there until I arranged a jail break.  Paid absolutely nothing.

*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be 
if they saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in 
communications & IT for 24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical 
linesman instead then I’d be only a few years from retirement. They 
are doing hard--and sometimes dangerous—work, but they are getting 
paid big bucks to do it.  People in master mechanics programs are also 
cleaning house right now.


I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you 
/about/ things, but not how to /do/ things.  Sometimes you do need 
that background about the topic to be good at doing it, and other 
times it really didn’t matter.  It’s also clear to me that what you 
get out of college is proportional to what you put into it (and I 
suppose that’s true of life in general), so if someone is going to 
college because it’s expected of them and not because of a real 
interest in the subject then their outcome will be less optimal than 
if they did something they actually liked or at least found engaging.


To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with 
that, and it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me 
that funding only STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling 
people what jobs they can have.  Au contraire, the /economy/ is 
telling people what jobs they can have, and this would just be 
allocating funding according to economic reality.  You can get a 
degree in chemical engineering and still become an English teacher if 
you happen to be good at that subject, and that’s what you really want 
to do, but you’d also have another marketable set of knowledge you can 
use in other contexts.


I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative (a 
moderate one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with 
universal healthcare.  Let’s do it.  Forget the bleeding heart 
arguments about it, just look at the economic realities.


1) The systems in other countries result in less health care spending 
per capita.


2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses and 
startups are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’ health 
insurance.  Here they have to offer insurance to be competitive in the 
labor market, and it’s a major hurdle for having success with a business.


3) We /already/ put about as much public money per capita into 
covering people’s medical bills as other countries do, and we’re only 
covering a portion of people with specific circumstances.  Either get 
all meddling fingers out of it and let the market figure out what to 
do, or go all in and rebuild the system so it works.  We’re one foot 
in and one foot out right now and it’s brutally expensive and by many 
metrics it’s not all that effective.  I know some would argue more in 
favor of letting the market handle it, but recall that we’ve done that 
before and we had quacks calling themselves doctors and selling all 
kinds of bullshit to people.  I’m thinking back when Coca-Cola 
contained cocaine and was sold as a medicine.  If you let the market 
run the show completely then you have to accept bad outcomes along 
with the good ones.  Civil court didn’t fix it all then, and I don’t 
see why it would now either.


-Adam

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Friday, July 05, 2024 7:24 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher 
education. More as an investment than as an expense


remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history 
degree, you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per 
classroom instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community 
service only, 90% mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 
percent drug and alcohol abstinence during the school year, tested 
biweekly. Zero criminal tolerance. You pay on the loan until youve 
completed the mandatory community service and repay all deferments 
from that time period. Then each year you maintain full time 
employment, 10 percent is waived for 10 years. but that would actually 
require something, so of course it would be too unfair.


On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:


I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision.

First, I lean quite strongly toward the Mike Rowe worldview in
that we need to quit telling ou

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[chuck]

I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that it is right 
around the corner for me.  
My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer.  Spent a week in a 
hospital there until I arranged a jail break.  Paid absolutely nothing.  


From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be if they 
saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in communications & IT for 
24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical linesman instead then I’d be only 
a few years from retirement.  They are doing hard--and sometimes 
dangerous—work, but they are getting paid big bucks to do it.  People in master 
mechanics programs are also cleaning house right now.  

 

I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you about things, 
but not how to do things.  Sometimes you do need that background about the 
topic to be good at doing it, and other times it really didn’t matter.  It’s 
also clear to me that what you get out of college is proportional to what you 
put into it (and I suppose that’s true of life in general), so if someone is 
going to college because it’s expected of them and not because of a real 
interest in the subject then their outcome will be less optimal than if they 
did something they actually liked or at least found engaging.  

 

To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with that, and 
it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me that funding only 
STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling people what jobs they can 
have.  Au contraire, the economy is telling people what jobs they can have, and 
this would just be allocating funding according to economic reality.  You can 
get a degree in chemical engineering and still become an English teacher if you 
happen to be good at that subject, and that’s what you really want to do, but 
you’d also have another marketable set of knowledge you can use in other 
contexts. 

 

I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative (a moderate 
one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with universal healthcare.  
Let’s do it.  Forget the bleeding heart arguments about it, just look at the 
economic realities.  

1) The systems in other countries result in less health care spending per 
capita.  

2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses and startups 
are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’ health insurance.  Here 
they have to offer insurance to be competitive in the labor market, and it’s a 
major hurdle for having success with a business.  

3) We already put about as much public money per capita into covering people’s 
medical bills as other countries do, and we’re only covering a portion of 
people with specific circumstances.  Either get all meddling fingers out of it 
and let the market figure out what to do, or go all in and rebuild the system 
so it works.  We’re one foot in and one foot out right now and it’s brutally 
expensive and by many metrics it’s not all that effective.  I know some would 
argue more in favor of letting the market handle it, but recall that we’ve done 
that before and we had quacks calling themselves doctors and selling all kinds 
of bullshit to people.  I’m thinking back when Coca-Cola contained cocaine and 
was sold as a medicine.  If you let the market run the show completely then you 
have to accept bad outcomes along with the good ones.  Civil court didn’t fix 
it all then, and I don’t see why it would now either.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2024 7:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher education. 
More as an investment than as an expense

 

remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history degree, 
you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per classroom 
instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community service only, 90% 
mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 percent drug and alcohol 
abstinence during the school year, tested biweekly. Zero criminal tolerance. 
You pay on the loan until youve completed the mandatory community service and 
repay all deferments from that time period. Then each year you maintain full 
time employment, 10 percent is waived for 10 years. but that would actually 
require something, so of course it would be too unfair.

 

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:

  I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision.

   

  First, I lean quite strongly toward the Mike Rowe worldview in that we need 
to quit telling our kids that they need a college education to make it in this 
world.  Right now if you're in one of the b

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Steve Jones]

im all for putting the coke back in the coke, so much more productivity
from the coke drinking workforce

On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 9:59 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> Awww, you’re telling me they took the coke out of Coke?  Next you’re going
> to tell me there’s no worm in tequila bottles.
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *dmmoff...@gmail.com
> *Sent:* Monday, July 8, 2024 9:16 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays
>
>
>
> To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be if
> they saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in communications &
> IT for 24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical linesman instead then
> I’d be only a few years from retirement.  They are doing hard--and
> sometimes dangerous—work, but they are getting paid big bucks to do it.
> People in master mechanics programs are also cleaning house right now.
>
>
>
> I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you *about*
> things, but not how to *do* things.  Sometimes you do need that
> background about the topic to be good at doing it, and other times it
> really didn’t matter.  It’s also clear to me that what you get out of
> college is proportional to what you put into it (and I suppose that’s true
> of life in general), so if someone is going to college because it’s
> expected of them and not because of a real interest in the subject then
> their outcome will be less optimal than if they did something they actually
> liked or at least found engaging.
>
>
>
> To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with
> that, and it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me that
> funding only STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling people
> what jobs they can have.  Au contraire, the *economy* is telling people
> what jobs they can have, and this would just be allocating funding
> according to economic reality.  You can get a degree in chemical
> engineering and still become an English teacher if you happen to be good at
> that subject, and that’s what you really want to do, but you’d also have
> another marketable set of knowledge you can use in other contexts.
>
>
>
> I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative (a
> moderate one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with universal
> healthcare.  Let’s do it.  Forget the bleeding heart arguments about it,
> just look at the economic realities.
>
> 1) The systems in other countries result in less health care spending per
> capita.
>
> 2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses and
> startups are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’ health
> insurance.  Here they have to offer insurance to be competitive in the
> labor market, and it’s a major hurdle for having success with a business.
>
> 3) We *already* put about as much public money per capita into covering
> people’s medical bills as other countries do, and we’re only covering a
> portion of people with specific circumstances.  Either get all meddling
> fingers out of it and let the market figure out what to do, or go all in
> and rebuild the system so it works.  We’re one foot in and one foot out
> right now and it’s brutally expensive and by many metrics it’s not all that
> effective.  I know some would argue more in favor of letting the market
> handle it, but recall that we’ve done that before and we had quacks calling
> themselves doctors and selling all kinds of bullshit to people.  I’m
> thinking back when Coca-Cola contained cocaine and was sold as a medicine.
> If you let the market run the show completely then you have to accept bad
> outcomes along with the good ones.  Civil court didn’t fix it all then, and
> I don’t see why it would now either.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Friday, July 05, 2024 7:24 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays
>
>
>
> I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher
> education. More as an investment than as an expense
>
>
>
> remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history
> degree, you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per
> classroom instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community
> service only, 90% mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 percent
> drug and alcohol abstinence during the school year, tested biweekly. Zero
> criminal tolerance. You pay on the loan until youve completed the mandatory
> community service and repay all deferments from that time period. Then each
> year you maintain full time employment, 10 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Ken Hohhof]

Awww, you’re telling me they took the coke out of Coke?  Next you’re going to 
tell me there’s no worm in tequila bottles.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2024 9:16 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be if they 
saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in communications & IT for 
24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical linesman instead then I’d be only 
a few years from retirement.  They are doing hard--and sometimes 
dangerous—work, but they are getting paid big bucks to do it.  People in master 
mechanics programs are also cleaning house right now.  

 

I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you about things, 
but not how to do things.  Sometimes you do need that background about the 
topic to be good at doing it, and other times it really didn’t matter.  It’s 
also clear to me that what you get out of college is proportional to what you 
put into it (and I suppose that’s true of life in general), so if someone is 
going to college because it’s expected of them and not because of a real 
interest in the subject then their outcome will be less optimal than if they 
did something they actually liked or at least found engaging.  

 

To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with that, and 
it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me that funding only 
STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling people what jobs they can 
have.  Au contraire, the economy is telling people what jobs they can have, and 
this would just be allocating funding according to economic reality.  You can 
get a degree in chemical engineering and still become an English teacher if you 
happen to be good at that subject, and that’s what you really want to do, but 
you’d also have another marketable set of knowledge you can use in other 
contexts. 

 

I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative (a moderate 
one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with universal healthcare.  
Let’s do it.  Forget the bleeding heart arguments about it, just look at the 
economic realities.  

1) The systems in other countries result in less health care spending per 
capita.  

2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses and startups 
are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’ health insurance.  Here 
they have to offer insurance to be competitive in the labor market, and it’s a 
major hurdle for having success with a business.  

3) We already put about as much public money per capita into covering people’s 
medical bills as other countries do, and we’re only covering a portion of 
people with specific circumstances.  Either get all meddling fingers out of it 
and let the market figure out what to do, or go all in and rebuild the system 
so it works.  We’re one foot in and one foot out right now and it’s brutally 
expensive and by many metrics it’s not all that effective.  I know some would 
argue more in favor of letting the market handle it, but recall that we’ve done 
that before and we had quacks calling themselves doctors and selling all kinds 
of bullshit to people.  I’m thinking back when Coca-Cola contained cocaine and 
was sold as a medicine.  If you let the market run the show completely then you 
have to accept bad outcomes along with the good ones.  Civil court didn’t fix 
it all then, and I don’t see why it would now either.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Steve Jones
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2024 7:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher education. 
More as an investment than as an expense

 

remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history degree, 
you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per classroom 
instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community service only, 90% 
mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 percent drug and alcohol 
abstinence during the school year, tested biweekly. Zero criminal tolerance. 
You pay on the loan until youve completed the mandatory community service and 
repay all deferments from that time period. Then each year you maintain full 
time employment, 10 percent is waived for 10 years. but that would actually 
require something, so of course it would be too unfair.

 

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
mailto:li...@packetflux.com> > wrote:

I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision.

 

First, I lean quite strongly toward the Mike Rowe worldview in that we need to 
quit telling our kids that they need a college education to make it in this 
world.  Right now if you're in one of the blue c

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[dmmoffett]

To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be if they 
saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in communications & IT for 
24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical linesman instead then I’d be only 
a few years from retirement.  They are doing hard--and sometimes 
dangerous—work, but they are getting paid big bucks to do it.  People in master 
mechanics programs are also cleaning house right now.  

 

I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you about things, 
but not how to do things.  Sometimes you do need that background about the 
topic to be good at doing it, and other times it really didn’t matter.  It’s 
also clear to me that what you get out of college is proportional to what you 
put into it (and I suppose that’s true of life in general), so if someone is 
going to college because it’s expected of them and not because of a real 
interest in the subject then their outcome will be less optimal than if they 
did something they actually liked or at least found engaging.  

 

To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with that, and 
it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me that funding only 
STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling people what jobs they can 
have.  Au contraire, the economy is telling people what jobs they can have, and 
this would just be allocating funding according to economic reality.  You can 
get a degree in chemical engineering and still become an English teacher if you 
happen to be good at that subject, and that’s what you really want to do, but 
you’d also have another marketable set of knowledge you can use in other 
contexts. 

 

I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative (a moderate 
one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with universal healthcare.  
Let’s do it.  Forget the bleeding heart arguments about it, just look at the 
economic realities.  

1) The systems in other countries result in less health care spending per 
capita.  

2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses and startups 
are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’ health insurance.  Here 
they have to offer insurance to be competitive in the labor market, and it’s a 
major hurdle for having success with a business.  

3) We already put about as much public money per capita into covering people’s 
medical bills as other countries do, and we’re only covering a portion of 
people with specific circumstances.  Either get all meddling fingers out of it 
and let the market figure out what to do, or go all in and rebuild the system 
so it works.  We’re one foot in and one foot out right now and it’s brutally 
expensive and by many metrics it’s not all that effective.  I know some would 
argue more in favor of letting the market handle it, but recall that we’ve done 
that before and we had quacks calling themselves doctors and selling all kinds 
of bullshit to people.  I’m thinking back when Coca-Cola contained cocaine and 
was sold as a medicine.  If you let the market run the show completely then you 
have to accept bad outcomes along with the good ones.  Civil court didn’t fix 
it all then, and I don’t see why it would now either.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2024 7:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher education. 
More as an investment than as an expense

 

remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history degree, 
you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per classroom 
instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community service only, 90% 
mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 percent drug and alcohol 
abstinence during the school year, tested biweekly. Zero criminal tolerance. 
You pay on the loan until youve completed the mandatory community service and 
repay all deferments from that time period. Then each year you maintain full 
time employment, 10 percent is waived for 10 years. but that would actually 
require something, so of course it would be too unfair.

 

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
mailto:li...@packetflux.com> > wrote:

I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision.

 

First, I lean quite strongly toward the Mike Rowe worldview in that we need to 
quit telling our kids that they need a college education to make it in this 
world.  Right now if you're in one of the blue collar trades you're far better 
off than a lot of the people who have ms or bs degrees.  There will always be a 
demand for plumbers, electricians, mechanics, and so on.  

 

On the college side, we need to adjust what we teach to provide for a condensed 
program where you cut out most (but not all) of the non-relevant programs.   
Yes, it's hard to learn 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Steve Jones]

Greed is good capitalist is the only way handouts should work.

On Sat, Jul 6, 2024, 12:34 PM  wrote:

> Maybe student loan availability should be based on ROI calculations.  If
> you want to borrow to get a liberal arts degree with little chance of being
> a high earner, you are very limited on the amount and the interest rate is
> high.  Ditto pell grants etc.  Useless degrees (speaking only from the
> greed is good strictly - capitalist perspective ) could be had but not at
> taxpayer expense.  Kinda like getting a line of credit for your business.
> You gotta prove a path for repayment or you ain’t gonna git it.
>
>
>
> *From:* Ken Hohhof
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 6, 2024 11:16 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays
>
>
> Seems a tad dystopian.  Wasn’t there a TV show or movie where at a certain
> age people were assigned a role in life, whether that’s what they want or
> not?
>
>
>
> Or I guess they could use the Sorting Hat from Harry Potter.
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 6, 2024 11:35 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays
>
>
>
> I have two British grandsons.  They are tested at 15 to determine whether
> they take a vocational track or an academic track for college.  Seems to
> work out pretty well for them.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Chuck McCown
>
> McCown Technology Corporation
> 8401 N Commerce Dr
> Lake Point, Utah 84074
> 801-250-9503 Office
> 435-830-4306 Cell
> www.mccowntech.com
> www.microtrench.pro
> www.terabitnetworks.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown
>
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 6, 2024 9:53 AM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays
>
>
>
> Only for BS degrees.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Jul 5, 2024, at 5:24 PM, Steve Jones  wrote:
>
> 
>
> I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher
> education. More as an investment than as an expense
>
>
>
> remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history
> degree, you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per
> classroom instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community
> service only, 90% mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 percent
> drug and alcohol abstinence during the school year, tested biweekly. Zero
> criminal tolerance. You pay on the loan until youve completed the mandatory
> community service and repay all deferments from that time period. Then each
> year you maintain full time employment, 10 percent is waived for 10 years.
> but that would actually require something, so of course it would be too
> unfair.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>
> I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision.
>
>
>
> First, I lean quite strongly toward the Mike Rowe worldview in that we
> need to quit telling our kids that they need a college education to make it
> in this world.  Right now if you're in one of the blue collar trades you're
> far better off than a lot of the people who have ms or bs degrees.  There
> will always be a demand for plumbers, electricians, mechanics, and so on.
>
>
>
> On the college side, we need to adjust what we teach to provide for a
> condensed program where you cut out most (but not all) of the non-relevant
> programs.   Yes, it's hard to learn certain trades without college, but a
> degree in computer science shouldn't need a lot of the liberal arts classes.
>
>
>
> Finally, we need to reform the student loan program so that we quit
> graduating students with degrees in underwater basketweaving with 6 figure
> loan balances.  Right now, lenders are able to loan to anyone without risk
> and as such there is no incentive for lenders or schools to ensure that the
> students will be able to repay their loans from a typical job in the
> student's chosen degree program.   This has led to ballooning tuition and
> overall school costs since there is no pressure to keep costs low.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024, 10:36 AM  wrote:
>
> With the risk of starting something, I thought I would inject some
> observations:
>
>
>
> I do watch Charley Kirk on YouTube for a quick fix of watching him
> dissolve some of the woke ideology being spouted by young college kids.
> For me it is like junk food for my worldview.  Can only take so much of it,
> like eating too many sweets.  And he can get a bit too alt-right for me at
> times.
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[chuck]

IMO Liberal Arts degrees are  useless in and of themselves for earning money.  
They are useful as an undergrad for a advanced degree.  I knew a lawyer that 
took Art History as it was the easiest thing he could take so he could apply to 
law school.  Worked for him.  He also ate himself into morbid obesity to avoid 
Vietnam, the was less successful, he carried excess weight for the rest of his 
life.  

I think community college associate degrees are a perfect way to start.  I 
would be fine for publicly funded CC programs as long as the students kept 
their grades up.  Here in Utah, you can get an associates while in high school 
for free.  But you have to be determined to do so.  

I really disliked those monster sessions.  I had one general ed government 
class with at least 1000 or more students in it.  The instructor had roving 
aids with microphones so students could ask questions.  I got pell grants, 
student loans and worked as much as I could.  It didn’t seem all the difficult 
to do.  So I have always had a bit of a dismissive attitude to people who say 
they can’t afford college.  I was married with 2 kids when I started University 
and had 4 kids when we left.  My wife did not work.  No other revenue to help.  
Ate a lot of ramen but it was totally worth it.  Not sure of the economics 
today.  I am sure rent is a much large source of pain then when I was doing it. 
 

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 12:03 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

I think like medical care, a good question is why college has become so 
expensive.  How much goes to actual costs of education vs. sports, fancy food 
and housing, etc.  I would also argue that the first two years where big 
lecture hall classes predominate should cost less, that would also be fair 
because colleges try to flunk out a percentage of students in the first year or 
two.  Why pay full freight if you’re just attending a lecture with 200 other 
students and then getting tossed out without a degree.  Another strategy some 
people recommend is first 2 years at a community or junior college and then 
transfer.

 

Also when I went to college, I worked 20 hours a week making pizzas, and was in 
a cooperative education program where it took 5 years to graduate but you had 
semesters as basically a paid intern, colleges today could try harder to make 
it possible for students to pay their own way rather than take out loans.

 

As far as a test determining who should go to college and who should become an 
HVAC tech, you have more confidence in standardized tests than I do.  Success 
in college and a career depends at least as much on effort as aptitude.  A hard 
working person of average intelligence will outperform a brainy slacker.  But 
what do I know, apparently “I like beer” makes you qualified to be a Supreme 
Court Justice.

 

And as far as people with liberal arts degrees having little chance of being a 
high earner, what is in the category “liberal arts”?  Does that include the 
people getting political science degrees or who are pre-law or pre-med who go 
on to be politicians, CEOs, lawyers and doctors?

 

BTW, Steve Jobs was a liberal arts major (actually a dropout).

https://www.reed.edu/steve-jobs.html

Warren Buffett reluctantly got business degrees but doesn’t think highly of a 
college education.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 12:29 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

Maybe student loan availability should be based on ROI calculations.  If you 
want to borrow to get a liberal arts degree with little chance of being a high 
earner, you are very limited on the amount and the interest rate is high.  
Ditto pell grants etc.  Useless degrees (speaking only from the greed is good 
strictly - capitalist perspective ) could be had but not at taxpayer expense.  
Kinda like getting a line of credit for your business.  You gotta prove a path 
for repayment or you ain’t gonna git it.  

 

 

 

From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 11:16 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

Seems a tad dystopian.  Wasn’t there a TV show or movie where at a certain age 
people were assigned a role in life, whether that’s what they want or not?

 

Or I guess they could use the Sorting Hat from Harry Potter.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 11:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

I have two British grandsons.  They are tested at 15 to determine whether they 
take a vocational track or an academic track for college.  Seems to work out 
pretty well for them.   

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtren

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Ken Hohhof]

I think like medical care, a good question is why college has become so 
expensive.  How much goes to actual costs of education vs. sports, fancy food 
and housing, etc.  I would also argue that the first two years where big 
lecture hall classes predominate should cost less, that would also be fair 
because colleges try to flunk out a percentage of students in the first year or 
two.  Why pay full freight if you’re just attending a lecture with 200 other 
students and then getting tossed out without a degree.  Another strategy some 
people recommend is first 2 years at a community or junior college and then 
transfer.

 

Also when I went to college, I worked 20 hours a week making pizzas, and was in 
a cooperative education program where it took 5 years to graduate but you had 
semesters as basically a paid intern, colleges today could try harder to make 
it possible for students to pay their own way rather than take out loans.

 

As far as a test determining who should go to college and who should become an 
HVAC tech, you have more confidence in standardized tests than I do.  Success 
in college and a career depends at least as much on effort as aptitude.  A hard 
working person of average intelligence will outperform a brainy slacker.  But 
what do I know, apparently “I like beer” makes you qualified to be a Supreme 
Court Justice.

 

And as far as people with liberal arts degrees having little chance of being a 
high earner, what is in the category “liberal arts”?  Does that include the 
people getting political science degrees or who are pre-law or pre-med who go 
on to be politicians, CEOs, lawyers and doctors?

 

BTW, Steve Jobs was a liberal arts major (actually a dropout).

https://www.reed.edu/steve-jobs.html

Warren Buffett reluctantly got business degrees but doesn’t think highly of a 
college education.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 12:29 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

Maybe student loan availability should be based on ROI calculations.  If you 
want to borrow to get a liberal arts degree with little chance of being a high 
earner, you are very limited on the amount and the interest rate is high.  
Ditto pell grants etc.  Useless degrees (speaking only from the greed is good 
strictly - capitalist perspective ) could be had but not at taxpayer expense.  
Kinda like getting a line of credit for your business.  You gotta prove a path 
for repayment or you ain’t gonna git it.  

 

 

 

From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 11:16 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

Seems a tad dystopian.  Wasn’t there a TV show or movie where at a certain age 
people were assigned a role in life, whether that’s what they want or not?

 

Or I guess they could use the Sorting Hat from Harry Potter.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of ch...@go-mtc.com <mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> 
Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 11:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

I have two British grandsons.  They are tested at 15 to determine whether they 
take a vocational track or an academic track for college.  Seems to work out 
pretty well for them.   

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com> 
www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro> 
www.terabitnetworks.com <http://www.terabitnetworks.com> 

 

From: Chuck McCown 

Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 9:53 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

Only for BS degrees.

Sent from my iPhone

 

On Jul 5, 2024, at 5:24 PM, Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher education. 
More as an investment than as an expense 

 

remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history degree, 
you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per classroom 
instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community service only, 90% 
mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 percent drug and alcohol 
abstinence during the school year, tested biweekly. Zero criminal tolerance. 
You pay on the loan until youve completed the mandatory community service and 
repay all deferments from that time period. Then each year you maintain full 
time employment, 10 percent is waived for 10 years. but that would actually 
require something, so of course it would be too unfair.

 

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
mailto:li...@packetflux.com> > wrote:

I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision. 

 

First, I lean quite strongly towa

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[chuck]

Maybe student loan availability should be based on ROI calculations.  If you 
want to borrow to get a liberal arts degree with little chance of being a high 
earner, you are very limited on the amount and the interest rate is high.  
Ditto pell grants etc.  Useless degrees (speaking only from the greed is good 
strictly - capitalist perspective ) could be had but not at taxpayer expense.  
Kinda like getting a line of credit for your business.  You gotta prove a path 
for repayment or you ain’t gonna git it.  



From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 11:16 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

Seems a tad dystopian.  Wasn’t there a TV show or movie where at a certain age 
people were assigned a role in life, whether that’s what they want or not?

 

Or I guess they could use the Sorting Hat from Harry Potter.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 11:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

I have two British grandsons.  They are tested at 15 to determine whether they 
take a vocational track or an academic track for college.  Seems to work out 
pretty well for them.   

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

 

From: Chuck McCown 

Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 9:53 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

Only for BS degrees.

Sent from my iPhone





  On Jul 5, 2024, at 5:24 PM, Steve Jones  wrote:

   

  I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher education. 
More as an investment than as an expense 

   

  remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history 
degree, you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per classroom 
instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community service only, 90% 
mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 percent drug and alcohol 
abstinence during the school year, tested biweekly. Zero criminal tolerance. 
You pay on the loan until youve completed the mandatory community service and 
repay all deferments from that time period. Then each year you maintain full 
time employment, 10 percent is waived for 10 years. but that would actually 
require something, so of course it would be too unfair.

   

  On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:

I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision. 

 

First, I lean quite strongly toward the Mike Rowe worldview in that we need 
to quit telling our kids that they need a college education to make it in this 
world.  Right now if you're in one of the blue collar trades you're far better 
off than a lot of the people who have ms or bs degrees.  There will always be a 
demand for plumbers, electricians, mechanics, and so on.  

 

On the college side, we need to adjust what we teach to provide for a 
condensed program where you cut out most (but not all) of the non-relevant 
programs.   Yes, it's hard to learn certain trades without college, but a 
degree in computer science shouldn't need a lot of the liberal arts classes.

 

Finally, we need to reform the student loan program so that we quit 
graduating students with degrees in underwater basketweaving with 6 figure loan 
balances.  Right now, lenders are able to loan to anyone without risk and as 
such there is no incentive for lenders or schools to ensure that the students 
will be able to repay their loans from a typical job in the student's chosen 
degree program.   This has led to ballooning tuition and overall school costs 
since there is no pressure to keep costs low. 

 

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024, 10:36 AM  wrote:

  With the risk of starting something, I thought I would inject some 
observations:

   

  I do watch Charley Kirk on YouTube for a quick fix of watching him 
dissolve some of the woke ideology being spouted by young college kids.  For me 
it is like junk food for my worldview.  Can only take so much of it, like 
eating too many sweets.  And he can get a bit too alt-right for me at times.   

   

  Yesterday he was preaching something that I think he was partially, 
perhaps mostly wrong about.  He is a college dropout and preaches that college 
is a scam and you would be better off just learning to code and find an 
internship that does not require a degree.  

   

  I think he is only partially right.  

  By and large, most BA programs are probably not worth the money unless 
they go onto grad school.  A BA in art history doesn’t have much value when 
searching Indeed for a job.  It can however get you into law school.  

   

  And we all know that if you start and successfully run a WISP yo

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Ken Hohhof]

Seems a tad dystopian.  Wasn’t there a TV show or movie where at a certain age 
people were assigned a role in life, whether that’s what they want or not?

 

Or I guess they could use the Sorting Hat from Harry Potter.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 11:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

I have two British grandsons.  They are tested at 15 to determine whether they 
take a vocational track or an academic track for college.  Seems to work out 
pretty well for them.   

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com> 
www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro> 
www.terabitnetworks.com <http://www.terabitnetworks.com> 

 

From: Chuck McCown 

Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 9:53 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

 

Only for BS degrees.

Sent from my iPhone





On Jul 5, 2024, at 5:24 PM, Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher education. 
More as an investment than as an expense 

 

remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history degree, 
you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per classroom 
instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community service only, 90% 
mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 percent drug and alcohol 
abstinence during the school year, tested biweekly. Zero criminal tolerance. 
You pay on the loan until youve completed the mandatory community service and 
repay all deferments from that time period. Then each year you maintain full 
time employment, 10 percent is waived for 10 years. but that would actually 
require something, so of course it would be too unfair.

 

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
mailto:li...@packetflux.com> > wrote:

I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision. 

 

First, I lean quite strongly toward the Mike Rowe worldview in that we need to 
quit telling our kids that they need a college education to make it in this 
world.  Right now if you're in one of the blue collar trades you're far better 
off than a lot of the people who have ms or bs degrees.  There will always be a 
demand for plumbers, electricians, mechanics, and so on.  

 

On the college side, we need to adjust what we teach to provide for a condensed 
program where you cut out most (but not all) of the non-relevant programs.   
Yes, it's hard to learn certain trades without college, but a degree in 
computer science shouldn't need a lot of the liberal arts classes.

 

Finally, we need to reform the student loan program so that we quit graduating 
students with degrees in underwater basketweaving with 6 figure loan balances.  
Right now, lenders are able to loan to anyone without risk and as such there is 
no incentive for lenders or schools to ensure that the students will be able to 
repay their loans from a typical job in the student's chosen degree program.   
This has led to ballooning tuition and overall school costs since there is no 
pressure to keep costs low. 

 

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024, 10:36 AM mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> > 
wrote:

With the risk of starting something, I thought I would inject some observations:

 

I do watch Charley Kirk on YouTube for a quick fix of watching him dissolve 
some of the woke ideology being spouted by young college kids.  For me it is 
like junk food for my worldview.  Can only take so much of it, like eating too 
many sweets.  And he can get a bit too alt-right for me at times.   

 

Yesterday he was preaching something that I think he was partially, perhaps 
mostly wrong about.  He is a college dropout and preaches that college is a 
scam and you would be better off just learning to code and find an internship 
that does not require a degree.  

 

I think he is only partially right.  

By and large, most BA programs are probably not worth the money unless they go 
onto grad school.  A BA in art history doesn’t have much value when searching 
Indeed for a job.  It can however get you into law school.  

 

And we all know that if you start and successfully run a WISP you absolutely 
must be an autodidact.  An autodidact with ambition.  Cannot pick up either of 
those at a college.  And do not need college to be a superior ISP or WISP.  It 
does however take a special type of person.   

 

But there are a couple of areas where I know, from personal experience, that 
you really benefit from formal education:

 

1)Computer Science – the part where you learn hardware theory, operating 
system design, compiler design, advanced data structures, OO methods etc.  
Really hard to pick up this stuff by watching yout

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[chuck]

I have two British grandsons.  They are tested at 15 to determine whether they 
take a vocational track or an academic track for college.  Seems to work out 
pretty well for them.   

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2024 9:53 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

Only for BS degrees.

Sent from my iPhone


  On Jul 5, 2024, at 5:24 PM, Steve Jones  wrote:


   
  I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher education. 
More as an investment than as an expense 

  remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history 
degree, you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per classroom 
instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community service only, 90% 
mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 percent drug and alcohol 
abstinence during the school year, tested biweekly. Zero criminal tolerance. 
You pay on the loan until youve completed the mandatory community service and 
repay all deferments from that time period. Then each year you maintain full 
time employment, 10 percent is waived for 10 years. but that would actually 
require something, so of course it would be too unfair.


  On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:

I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision. 

First, I lean quite strongly toward the Mike Rowe worldview in that we need 
to quit telling our kids that they need a college education to make it in this 
world.  Right now if you're in one of the blue collar trades you're far better 
off than a lot of the people who have ms or bs degrees.  There will always be a 
demand for plumbers, electricians, mechanics, and so on.  

On the college side, we need to adjust what we teach to provide for a 
condensed program where you cut out most (but not all) of the non-relevant 
programs.   Yes, it's hard to learn certain trades without college, but a 
degree in computer science shouldn't need a lot of the liberal arts classes.

Finally, we need to reform the student loan program so that we quit 
graduating students with degrees in underwater basketweaving with 6 figure loan 
balances.  Right now, lenders are able to loan to anyone without risk and as 
such there is no incentive for lenders or schools to ensure that the students 
will be able to repay their loans from a typical job in the student's chosen 
degree program.   This has led to ballooning tuition and overall school costs 
since there is no pressure to keep costs low. 

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024, 10:36 AM  wrote:

  With the risk of starting something, I thought I would inject some 
observations:

  I do watch Charley Kirk on YouTube for a quick fix of watching him 
dissolve some of the woke ideology being spouted by young college kids.  For me 
it is like junk food for my worldview.  Can only take so much of it, like 
eating too many sweets.  And he can get a bit too alt-right for me at times.   

  Yesterday he was preaching something that I think he was partially, 
perhaps mostly wrong about.  He is a college dropout and preaches that college 
is a scam and you would be better off just learning to code and find an 
internship that does not require a degree.  

  I think he is only partially right.  
  By and large, most BA programs are probably not worth the money unless 
they go onto grad school.  A BA in art history doesn’t have much value when 
searching Indeed for a job.  It can however get you into law school.  

  And we all know that if you start and successfully run a WISP you 
absolutely must be an autodidact.  An autodidact with ambition.  Cannot pick up 
either of those at a college.  And do not need college to be a superior ISP or 
WISP.  It does however take a special type of person.   

  But there are a couple of areas where I know, from personal experience, 
that you really benefit from formal education:

  1)Computer Science – the part where you learn hardware theory, 
operating system design, compiler design, advanced data structures, OO methods 
etc.  Really hard to pick up this stuff by watching youtube videos.  And really 
hard to get any good at it unless you are forced to do homework and labs.  
Understanding what happens with the hardware, the stack and OS during a 
hardware interrupt is important and not so easy to learn on your own.  Try to 
write some DSP functions from scratch on your own... or perhaps some machine 
code to hand optimize a MCU routine.  Much easier if you had a class on 
assembly.  

  2)RF and antennas.  Reflection coefficients and the mastery of Smith 
charts.  EM simulation software and optimization.  S11 and PCB stripline and 
micro

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Chuck McCown]

Only for BS degrees.Sent from my iPhoneOn Jul 5, 2024, at 5:24 PM, Steve Jones  wrote:I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher education. More as an investment than as an expenseremove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history degree, you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per classroom instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community service only, 90% mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 percent drug and alcohol abstinence during the school year, tested biweekly. Zero criminal tolerance. You pay on the loan until youve completed the mandatory community service and repay all deferments from that time period. Then each year you maintain full time employment, 10 percent is waived for 10 years. but that would actually require something, so of course it would be too unfair.On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account)  wrote:I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision.First, I lean quite strongly toward the Mike Rowe worldview in that we need to quit telling our kids that they need a college education to make it in this world.  Right now if you're in one of the blue collar trades you're far better off than a lot of the people who have ms or bs degrees.  There will always be a demand for plumbers, electricians, mechanics, and so on.  On the college side, we need to adjust what we teach to provide for a condensed program where you cut out most (but not all) of the non-relevant programs.   Yes, it's hard to learn certain trades without college, but a degree in computer science shouldn't need a lot of the liberal arts classes.Finally, we need to reform the student loan program so that we quit graduating students with degrees in underwater basketweaving with 6 figure loan balances.  Right now, lenders are able to loan to anyone without risk and as such there is no incentive for lenders or schools to ensure that the students will be able to repay their loans from a typical job in the student's chosen degree program.   This has led to ballooning tuition and overall school costs since there is no pressure to keep costs low. On Thu, Jul 4, 2024, 10:36 AM   wrote:



With the risk of starting something, I thought I would inject some 
observations:
 
I do watch Charley Kirk on YouTube for a quick fix of watching him dissolve 
some of the woke ideology being spouted by young college kids.  For me it 
is like junk food for my worldview.  Can only take so much of it, like 
eating too many sweets.  And he can get a bit too alt-right for me at 
times.   
 
Yesterday he was preaching something that I think he was partially, perhaps 
mostly wrong about.  He is a college dropout and preaches that college is a 
scam and you would be better off just learning to code and find an internship 
that does not require a degree.  
 
I think he is only partially right.  
By and large, most BA programs are probably not worth the money unless they 
go onto grad school.  A BA in art history doesn’t have much value when 
searching Indeed for a job.  It can however get you into law school.  

 
And we all know that if you start and successfully run a WISP you 
absolutely must be an autodidact.  An autodidact with ambition.  
Cannot pick up either of those at a college.  And do not need college to be 
a superior ISP or WISP.  It does however take a special type of 
person.   
 
But there are a couple of areas where I know, from personal experience, 
that you really benefit from formal education:
 
1)    Computer Science – the part where you learn hardware 
theory, operating system design, compiler design, advanced data structures, OO 
methods etc.  Really hard to pick up this stuff by watching youtube 
videos.  And really hard to get any good at it unless you are forced to do 
homework and labs.  Understanding what happens with the hardware, the stack 
and OS during a hardware interrupt is important and not so easy to learn on your 
own.  Try to write some DSP functions from scratch on your own... or 
perhaps some machine code to hand optimize a MCU routine.  Much easier if 
you had a class on assembly.  
 
2)    RF and antennas.  Reflection coefficients and the 
mastery of Smith charts.  EM simulation software and optimization.  
S11 and PCB stripline and microstrip layout.  Etc etc.  Again, a good 
autodidact can teach themselves anything.  But I tried for years to master 
Smith charts and it was not until college that I finally got to where I could 
use them.  Now-a-days the software does it all for you but you still need 
to know.  
 
3)    To understand some of this stuff, like DSP etc, you 
also need some upper level math, calculus and trig.  Hard to do on your 
own.  
 
I also imagine that if you want to get into medical school, classes on 
chemistry, biology etc are essential.  All PE programs will always need 
degreed e

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Nate Burke]

Since I don't have kids, and am 20 years post college,  Does STEAM 
replace STEM?  You only have to choose 1 of the letters?  I thought they 
were all supposed to work in conjunction.  I went to a small liberal 
arts school, and I wouldn't be the person that I am now without having 
some of the Arts training that I did. Physics and CS were my majors, but 
I also could have had a minor in music pretty easy.  I'm way more 
rounded than kids that went to a large college where they only took 
degree specific classes.


I know a story of a person that did a 3 years at a small LA college, 
then 2 Years at a large university, to get a BS and an EE degree.  When 
he was at the university, other kids in engineering who were juniors and 
seniors, couldn't even spell check a paper, or complete sentences.    He 
had a good side business proof reading their work  (This was before word 
processors did all that for you)


I recently told a parent of a kid soon to graduate high school, that 
they should look at sending the not-straight-A-and-Unkonwn-Career-path 
kid into a trade instead of college.  The was the WRONG answer for a 
suburban Chicago parent to hear.


On 7/5/2024 6:24 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher 
education. More as an investment than as an expense


remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history 
degree, you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per 
classroom instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community 
service only, 90% mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 
percent drug and alcohol abstinence during the school year, tested 
biweekly. Zero criminal tolerance. You pay on the loan until youve 
completed the mandatory community service and repay all deferments 
from that time period. Then each year you maintain full time 
employment, 10 percent is waived for 10 years. but that would actually 
require something, so of course it would be too unfair.


On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:


I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision.

First, I lean quite strongly toward the Mike Rowe worldview in
that we need to quit telling our kids that they need a college
education to make it in this world.  Right now if you're in one of
the blue collar trades you're far better off than a lot of the
people who have ms or bs degrees.  There will always be a demand
for plumbers, electricians, mechanics, and so on.

On the college side, we need to adjust what we teach to provide
for a condensed program where you cut out most (but not all) of
the non-relevant programs.  Yes, it's hard to learn certain trades
without college, but a degree in computer science shouldn't need a
lot of the liberal arts classes.

Finally, we need to reform the student loan program so that we
quit graduating students with degrees in underwater basketweaving
with 6 figure loan balances. Right now, lenders are able to loan
to anyone without risk and as such there is no incentive for
lenders or schools to ensure that the students will be able to
repay their loans from a typical job in the student's chosen
degree program.   This has led to ballooning tuition and overall
school costs since there is no pressure to keep costs low.

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024, 10:36 AM  wrote:

With the risk of starting something, I thought I would inject
some observations:
I do watch Charley Kirk on YouTube for a quick fix of watching
him dissolve some of the woke ideology being spouted by young
college kids.  For me it is like junk food for my worldview. 
Can only take so much of it, like eating too many sweets.  And
he can get a bit too alt-right for me at times.
Yesterday he was preaching something that I think he was
partially, perhaps mostly wrong about.  He is a college
dropout and preaches that college is a scam and you would be
better off just learning to code and find an internship that
does not require a degree.
I think he is only partially right.
By and large, most BA programs are probably not worth the
money unless they go onto grad school. A BA in art history
doesn’t have much value when searching Indeed for a job.  It
can however get you into law school.
And we all know that if you start and successfully run a WISP
you absolutely must be an autodidact.  An autodidact with
ambition.  Cannot pick up either of those at a college.  And
do not need college to be a superior ISP or WISP.  It does
however take a special type of person.
But there are a couple of areas where I know, from personal
experience, that you really benefit from formal education:
1)    Computer Science – the part where you learn hardware
the

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Steve Jones]

I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher education.
More as an investment than as an expense

remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history
degree, you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per
classroom instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community
service only, 90% mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 percent
drug and alcohol abstinence during the school year, tested biweekly. Zero
criminal tolerance. You pay on the loan until youve completed the mandatory
community service and repay all deferments from that time period. Then each
year you maintain full time employment, 10 percent is waived for 10 years.
but that would actually require something, so of course it would be too
unfair.

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision.
>
> First, I lean quite strongly toward the Mike Rowe worldview in that we
> need to quit telling our kids that they need a college education to make it
> in this world.  Right now if you're in one of the blue collar trades you're
> far better off than a lot of the people who have ms or bs degrees.  There
> will always be a demand for plumbers, electricians, mechanics, and so on.
>
> On the college side, we need to adjust what we teach to provide for a
> condensed program where you cut out most (but not all) of the non-relevant
> programs.   Yes, it's hard to learn certain trades without college, but a
> degree in computer science shouldn't need a lot of the liberal arts classes.
>
> Finally, we need to reform the student loan program so that we quit
> graduating students with degrees in underwater basketweaving with 6 figure
> loan balances.  Right now, lenders are able to loan to anyone without risk
> and as such there is no incentive for lenders or schools to ensure that the
> students will be able to repay their loans from a typical job in the
> student's chosen degree program.   This has led to ballooning tuition and
> overall school costs since there is no pressure to keep costs low.
>
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024, 10:36 AM  wrote:
>
>> With the risk of starting something, I thought I would inject some
>> observations:
>>
>> I do watch Charley Kirk on YouTube for a quick fix of watching him
>> dissolve some of the woke ideology being spouted by young college kids.
>> For me it is like junk food for my worldview.  Can only take so much of it,
>> like eating too many sweets.  And he can get a bit too alt-right for me at
>> times.
>>
>> Yesterday he was preaching something that I think he was partially,
>> perhaps mostly wrong about.  He is a college dropout and preaches that
>> college is a scam and you would be better off just learning to code and
>> find an internship that does not require a degree.
>>
>> I think he is only partially right.
>> By and large, most BA programs are probably not worth the money unless
>> they go onto grad school.  A BA in art history doesn’t have much value when
>> searching Indeed for a job.  It can however get you into law school.
>>
>> And we all know that if you start and successfully run a WISP you
>> absolutely must be an autodidact.  An autodidact with ambition.  Cannot
>> pick up either of those at a college.  And do not need college to be a
>> superior ISP or WISP.  It does however take a special type of person.
>>
>> But there are a couple of areas where I know, from personal experience,
>> that you really benefit from formal education:
>>
>> 1)Computer Science – the part where you learn hardware theory,
>> operating system design, compiler design, advanced data structures, OO
>> methods etc.  Really hard to pick up this stuff by watching youtube
>> videos.  And really hard to get any good at it unless you are forced to do
>> homework and labs.  Understanding what happens with the hardware, the stack
>> and OS during a hardware interrupt is important and not so easy to learn on
>> your own.  Try to write some DSP functions from scratch on your own... or
>> perhaps some machine code to hand optimize a MCU routine.  Much easier if
>> you had a class on assembly.
>>
>> 2)RF and antennas.  Reflection coefficients and the mastery of Smith
>> charts.  EM simulation software and optimization.  S11 and PCB stripline
>> and microstrip layout.  Etc etc.  Again, a good autodidact can teach
>> themselves anything.  But I tried for years to master Smith charts and it
>> was not until college that I finally got to where I could use them.
>> Now-a-days the software does it all for you but you still need to know.
>>
>> 3)To understand some of this stuff, like DSP etc, you also need some
>> upper level math, calculus and trig.  Hard to do on your own.
>>
>> I also imagine that if you want to get into medical school, classes on
>> chemistry, biology etc are essential.  All PE programs will always need
>> degreed engineers.  So yeah Charley, if you

Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision.

First, I lean quite strongly toward the Mike Rowe worldview in that we need
to quit telling our kids that they need a college education to make it in
this world.  Right now if you're in one of the blue collar trades you're
far better off than a lot of the people who have ms or bs degrees.  There
will always be a demand for plumbers, electricians, mechanics, and so on.

On the college side, we need to adjust what we teach to provide for a
condensed program where you cut out most (but not all) of the non-relevant
programs.   Yes, it's hard to learn certain trades without college, but a
degree in computer science shouldn't need a lot of the liberal arts classes.

Finally, we need to reform the student loan program so that we quit
graduating students with degrees in underwater basketweaving with 6 figure
loan balances.  Right now, lenders are able to loan to anyone without risk
and as such there is no incentive for lenders or schools to ensure that the
students will be able to repay their loans from a typical job in the
student's chosen degree program.   This has led to ballooning tuition and
overall school costs since there is no pressure to keep costs low.

On Thu, Jul 4, 2024, 10:36 AM  wrote:

> With the risk of starting something, I thought I would inject some
> observations:
>
> I do watch Charley Kirk on YouTube for a quick fix of watching him
> dissolve some of the woke ideology being spouted by young college kids.
> For me it is like junk food for my worldview.  Can only take so much of it,
> like eating too many sweets.  And he can get a bit too alt-right for me at
> times.
>
> Yesterday he was preaching something that I think he was partially,
> perhaps mostly wrong about.  He is a college dropout and preaches that
> college is a scam and you would be better off just learning to code and
> find an internship that does not require a degree.
>
> I think he is only partially right.
> By and large, most BA programs are probably not worth the money unless
> they go onto grad school.  A BA in art history doesn’t have much value when
> searching Indeed for a job.  It can however get you into law school.
>
> And we all know that if you start and successfully run a WISP you
> absolutely must be an autodidact.  An autodidact with ambition.  Cannot
> pick up either of those at a college.  And do not need college to be a
> superior ISP or WISP.  It does however take a special type of person.
>
> But there are a couple of areas where I know, from personal experience,
> that you really benefit from formal education:
>
> 1)Computer Science – the part where you learn hardware theory,
> operating system design, compiler design, advanced data structures, OO
> methods etc.  Really hard to pick up this stuff by watching youtube
> videos.  And really hard to get any good at it unless you are forced to do
> homework and labs.  Understanding what happens with the hardware, the stack
> and OS during a hardware interrupt is important and not so easy to learn on
> your own.  Try to write some DSP functions from scratch on your own... or
> perhaps some machine code to hand optimize a MCU routine.  Much easier if
> you had a class on assembly.
>
> 2)RF and antennas.  Reflection coefficients and the mastery of Smith
> charts.  EM simulation software and optimization.  S11 and PCB stripline
> and microstrip layout.  Etc etc.  Again, a good autodidact can teach
> themselves anything.  But I tried for years to master Smith charts and it
> was not until college that I finally got to where I could use them.
> Now-a-days the software does it all for you but you still need to know.
>
> 3)To understand some of this stuff, like DSP etc, you also need some
> upper level math, calculus and trig.  Hard to do on your own.
>
> I also imagine that if you want to get into medical school, classes on
> chemistry, biology etc are essential.  All PE programs will always need
> degreed engineers.  So yeah Charley, if you get a liberal arts degree, I
> would tend to agree with you that your fathers money was probably wasted.
> But many of the BS degrees are not a scam or waste.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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[AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[chuck]

With the risk of starting something, I thought I would inject some observations:

I do watch Charley Kirk on YouTube for a quick fix of watching him dissolve 
some of the woke ideology being spouted by young college kids.  For me it is 
like junk food for my worldview.  Can only take so much of it, like eating too 
many sweets.  And he can get a bit too alt-right for me at times.   

Yesterday he was preaching something that I think he was partially, perhaps 
mostly wrong about.  He is a college dropout and preaches that college is a 
scam and you would be better off just learning to code and find an internship 
that does not require a degree.  

I think he is only partially right.  
By and large, most BA programs are probably not worth the money unless they go 
onto grad school.  A BA in art history doesn’t have much value when searching 
Indeed for a job.  It can however get you into law school.  

And we all know that if you start and successfully run a WISP you absolutely 
must be an autodidact.  An autodidact with ambition.  Cannot pick up either of 
those at a college.  And do not need college to be a superior ISP or WISP.  It 
does however take a special type of person.   

But there are a couple of areas where I know, from personal experience, that 
you really benefit from formal education:

1)Computer Science – the part where you learn hardware theory, operating 
system design, compiler design, advanced data structures, OO methods etc.  
Really hard to pick up this stuff by watching youtube videos.  And really hard 
to get any good at it unless you are forced to do homework and labs.  
Understanding what happens with the hardware, the stack and OS during a 
hardware interrupt is important and not so easy to learn on your own.  Try to 
write some DSP functions from scratch on your own... or perhaps some machine 
code to hand optimize a MCU routine.  Much easier if you had a class on 
assembly.  

2)RF and antennas.  Reflection coefficients and the mastery of Smith 
charts.  EM simulation software and optimization.  S11 and PCB stripline and 
microstrip layout.  Etc etc.  Again, a good autodidact can teach themselves 
anything.  But I tried for years to master Smith charts and it was not until 
college that I finally got to where I could use them.  Now-a-days the software 
does it all for you but you still need to know.  

3)To understand some of this stuff, like DSP etc, you also need some upper 
level math, calculus and trig.  Hard to do on your own.  

I also imagine that if you want to get into medical school, classes on 
chemistry, biology etc are essential.  All PE programs will always need degreed 
engineers.  So yeah Charley, if you get a liberal arts degree, I would tend to 
agree with you that your fathers money was probably wasted.  But many of the BS 
degrees are not a scam or waste.  
-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

[Bill Prince]

Chocolate beats formaldehyde in my book.

bp


On 7/1/2024 11:24 AM, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:

As long as I smell like chocolate.
-Original Message- From: Ken Hohhof Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 
12:06 PM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 
OT Hershey's syrup
Look at the ingredient list.  It probably has so many preservatives 
that if

Chuck does croak, they won't have to embalm him.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 12:50 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

Hershey Syrup will never go bad; just like sugar and honey. Once the 
sugar

level gets to some arbitrarily high point, bacteria can not survive.


bp


On 6/30/2024 5:57 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Exp 2012, never in fridge.  Tastes great. If I croak that may be why.
Sent from my iPhone






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Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

[chuck]

I think we had a chocolate fountain at an Animal Farm one time.  

-Original Message- 
From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 1:26 PM 
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup 


Didn't you have a chocolate syrup fountain?

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 1:25 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

As long as I smell like chocolate.  


-Original Message-
From: Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 12:06 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup 


Look at the ingredient list.  It probably has so many preservatives that if
Chuck does croak, they won't have to embalm him.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 12:50 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

Hershey Syrup will never go bad; just like sugar and honey. Once the sugar
level gets to some arbitrarily high point, bacteria can not survive.


bp


On 6/30/2024 5:57 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Exp 2012, never in fridge.  Tastes great.  If I croak that may be why.
Sent from my iPhone




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Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

[Bill Prince]

I think I remember that.

bp


On 7/1/2024 12:26 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

Didn't you have a chocolate syrup fountain?

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 1:25 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

As long as I smell like chocolate.

-Original Message-
From: Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 12:06 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

Look at the ingredient list.  It probably has so many preservatives that if
Chuck does croak, they won't have to embalm him.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 12:50 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

Hershey Syrup will never go bad; just like sugar and honey. Once the sugar
level gets to some arbitrarily high point, bacteria can not survive.


bp


On 6/30/2024 5:57 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Exp 2012, never in fridge.  Tastes great.  If I croak that may be why.
Sent from my iPhone



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Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

[Ken Hohhof]

Didn't you have a chocolate syrup fountain?

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 1:25 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

As long as I smell like chocolate.  

-Original Message-
From: Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 12:06 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup 

Look at the ingredient list.  It probably has so many preservatives that if
Chuck does croak, they won't have to embalm him.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 12:50 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

Hershey Syrup will never go bad; just like sugar and honey. Once the sugar
level gets to some arbitrarily high point, bacteria can not survive.


bp


On 6/30/2024 5:57 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
> Exp 2012, never in fridge.  Tastes great.  If I croak that may be why.
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

[chuck]

As long as I smell like chocolate.  

-Original Message- 
From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 12:06 PM 
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup 


Look at the ingredient list.  It probably has so many preservatives that if
Chuck does croak, they won't have to embalm him.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 12:50 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Hershey's syrup

Hershey Syrup will never go bad; just like sugar and honey. Once the sugar
level gets to some arbitrarily high point, bacteria can not survive.


bp


On 6/30/2024 5:57 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Exp 2012, never in fridge.  Tastes great.  If I croak that may be why.
Sent from my iPhone




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