Re: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

[Josh Luthman]

I've definitely seen exactly that.

FSK ran like crap at 100 fdx.  Did OK at 10 fdx (which was OK being FSK...)
Mikrotik 532 at 100 fdx would just run like hell.
Mikrotik Netmetal 5 (I think these are 400 boards?) did great.
ePMP had no problems at gig.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 10:10 AM, Nate Burke <n...@blastcomm.com> wrote:

> Has anybody found differences in the Ethernet equipment used and errors?
> We have a site with a 4kw FM about 50' away from our gear. An FSK Cluster
> will not run at 100mb, only 10mb.  A powerbridge at the same level
> sometimes negotiates down to 10mb, but mostly stays at 100mb.  An EPMP
> radio happily sits at 1G with no issues.  They are all at the same
> height/cable length/cable type.  The FSK Radios plug into a RB2011, and the
> powerbridge and EPMP plug into a RB1100.  So there is a difference between
> the Ethernet chipset in the radio equipment and routers.  I can only guess
> that some combination there of is more sensitive to the FM than the others.
>
>
> On 9/18/2017 8:14 AM, Dennis Burgess wrote:
>
>> We do.. 100k at the top .. no issues, use good cabling and you don't have
>> issues.
>>
>>
>> Dennis Burgess - Network Solution Engineer - Consultant
>> MikroTik Certified Trainer/Consultant - MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE,
>> MTCINE
>>
>> For Wireless Hardware/Routers visit www.linktechs.net
>> Radio Frequency Coverages: www.towercoverage.com
>> Office: 314-735-0270
>> E-Mail: dmburg...@linktechs.net
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler
>> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 2:14 PM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?
>>
>> Theres a potentially new FM radio tenant wanting to colocate on a tower
>> we are already on. We're predicting there is absolutely no way this will
>> work with our 100BT and 1000BT Ethernet links.
>>
>> He anyone collocated with FM radio and 'it worked '?
>>
>>
>> Jon Langeler
>> Michwave Technologies, Inc.
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

Sometimes even a foot or two of cable length makes a difference.   At FM
frequencies the wavelength is around 3 meters, so a length change of 1.5m
may change a cable from worst case to best case.   Plus the positioning and
routing of a cable can make lots of difference.

It also wouldn't surprise me to find that a gigabit link is more stable.  A
lot of signal processing is neccesary to make gigabit work.  Some of it is
likely to improve noise rejection

On Sep 18, 2017 8:10 AM, "Nate Burke" <n...@blastcomm.com> wrote:

> Has anybody found differences in the Ethernet equipment used and errors?
> We have a site with a 4kw FM about 50' away from our gear. An FSK Cluster
> will not run at 100mb, only 10mb.  A powerbridge at the same level
> sometimes negotiates down to 10mb, but mostly stays at 100mb.  An EPMP
> radio happily sits at 1G with no issues.  They are all at the same
> height/cable length/cable type.  The FSK Radios plug into a RB2011, and the
> powerbridge and EPMP plug into a RB1100.  So there is a difference between
> the Ethernet chipset in the radio equipment and routers.  I can only guess
> that some combination there of is more sensitive to the FM than the others.
>
> On 9/18/2017 8:14 AM, Dennis Burgess wrote:
>
>> We do.. 100k at the top .. no issues, use good cabling and you don't have
>> issues.
>>
>>
>> Dennis Burgess - Network Solution Engineer - Consultant
>> MikroTik Certified Trainer/Consultant - MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE,
>> MTCINE
>>
>> For Wireless Hardware/Routers visit www.linktechs.net
>> Radio Frequency Coverages: www.towercoverage.com
>> Office: 314-735-0270
>> E-Mail: dmburg...@linktechs.net
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler
>> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 2:14 PM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?
>>
>> Theres a potentially new FM radio tenant wanting to colocate on a tower
>> we are already on. We're predicting there is absolutely no way this will
>> work with our 100BT and 1000BT Ethernet links.
>>
>> He anyone collocated with FM radio and 'it worked '?
>>
>>
>> Jon Langeler
>> Michwave Technologies, Inc.
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

[Nate Burke]

Has anybody found differences in the Ethernet equipment used and 
errors?  We have a site with a 4kw FM about 50' away from our gear. An 
FSK Cluster will not run at 100mb, only 10mb.  A powerbridge at the same 
level sometimes negotiates down to 10mb, but mostly stays at 100mb.  An 
EPMP radio happily sits at 1G with no issues.  They are all at the same 
height/cable length/cable type.  The FSK Radios plug into a RB2011, and 
the powerbridge and EPMP plug into a RB1100.  So there is a difference 
between the Ethernet chipset in the radio equipment and routers.  I can 
only guess that some combination there of is more sensitive to the FM 
than the others.


On 9/18/2017 8:14 AM, Dennis Burgess wrote:

We do.. 100k at the top .. no issues, use good cabling and you don't have 
issues.


Dennis Burgess - Network Solution Engineer - Consultant
MikroTik Certified Trainer/Consultant - MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE

For Wireless Hardware/Routers visit www.linktechs.net
Radio Frequency Coverages: www.towercoverage.com
Office: 314-735-0270
E-Mail: dmburg...@linktechs.net


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 2:14 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

Theres a potentially new FM radio tenant wanting to colocate on a tower we are 
already on. We're predicting there is absolutely no way this will work with our 
100BT and 1000BT Ethernet links.

He anyone collocated with FM radio and 'it worked '?


Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.

Re: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

[Dennis Burgess]

We do.. 100k at the top .. no issues, use good cabling and you don't have 
issues. 


Dennis Burgess - Network Solution Engineer - Consultant 
MikroTik Certified Trainer/Consultant - MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE

For Wireless Hardware/Routers visit www.linktechs.net
Radio Frequency Coverages: www.towercoverage.com 
Office: 314-735-0270
E-Mail: dmburg...@linktechs.net 


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 2:14 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

Theres a potentially new FM radio tenant wanting to colocate on a tower we are 
already on. We're predicting there is absolutely no way this will work with our 
100BT and 1000BT Ethernet links. 

He anyone collocated with FM radio and 'it worked '?


Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.

Re: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

[George Skorup]

We're on about a dozen FM sites. Most are 3-6kW ERP, 1-3kW Tx. No issues 
on those. And then one 50kW ERP, 17kW Tx. No major issues, just some CRC 
errors. Got a 450 cluster here. The ethernet links have been up for 194 
days and only two of the radios are showing about 3000 CRC errors. 
That's about 265 feet of Shireen shielded cat5e, too. No ferrites, just 
Rev B GigE-SS-HVs. I did discover that if I disconnect the ground from 
the PRM24, the errors do tick up a bit. So.. something is doing... 
something.


Which brings me to... the worst mistake you can make on an FM or a VHF 
2-way site is not making sure everyone is following the single-point 
bonding principle. Everything from surges to common mode RF on the 
shields of coax and cat5. Been there, done that.


That 50kW site has an old transmitter. They don't want to replace it 
because they say it "sounds good" to them. They have some big copper can 
thing between the transmitter and the transition to the transmission 
line. I have no idea what that's for, but I imagine some kind of filter.


On 9/17/2017 10:21 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:

It might do nothing to you.

The most crippling problem we saw was colo with a 35,000 Watt FM 
station.  The only thing that fixed that was fiber to a box at the 
top, and then shielded CAT5 jumpers as short as possible to the AP's.  
In other FM radio cases shielded cable alone was enough, even when 
their antenna was pretty close to our AP's.  One case was fixed with a 
huge ferrite core with the cable looped through it a bunch of times.




-- Original Message --
From: "Jon Langeler" <jon-ispli...@michwave.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 9/16/2017 3:13:52 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

Theres a potentially new FM radio tenant wanting to colocate on a 
tower we are already on. We're predicting there is absolutely no way 
this will work with our 100BT and 1000BT Ethernet links.


He anyone collocated with FM radio and 'it worked '?


Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.

Re: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

[Adam Moffett]

It might do nothing to you.

The most crippling problem we saw was colo with a 35,000 Watt FM 
station.  The only thing that fixed that was fiber to a box at the top, 
and then shielded CAT5 jumpers as short as possible to the AP's.  In 
other FM radio cases shielded cable alone was enough, even when their 
antenna was pretty close to our AP's.  One case was fixed with a huge 
ferrite core with the cable looped through it a bunch of times.




-- Original Message --
From: "Jon Langeler" <jon-ispli...@michwave.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 9/16/2017 3:13:52 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

Theres a potentially new FM radio tenant wanting to colocate on a tower 
we are already on. We're predicting there is absolutely no way this 
will work with our 100BT and 1000BT Ethernet links.


He anyone collocated with FM radio and 'it worked '?


Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.

Re: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

[chuck]

The FM antenna will attempt to direct the energy away from the tower.  If you 
are below the antenna, you are in somewhat of a null area.
Do you know the transmitter power output of the FM station?
Ferrite and coils of cat 5 will choke the FM out of the radio to a certain 
degree.  

I think it will work.  You will need shielded cable of course.  
You may need the ferrite.  Coils cost nothing and are no extra work.

Conduit or liquidtight have fixed problems for others.  

Lots of folks are on towers with broadcasters.  

From: Jon Langeler 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 1:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

50' difference and frequency of 99.5mhz

I don't see how 100BT could possibly work 

Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.


On Sep 16, 2017, at 3:26 PM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us> wrote:


  Depends on how close they are to your APs and how much power.

  You can Use fiber or run all cat5 in liquidtight (with the metal armor) all 
the way to the radio.

  -Sean


  On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 1:13 PM Jon Langeler <jon-ispli...@michwave.net> 
wrote:

Theres a potentially new FM radio tenant wanting to colocate on a tower we 
are already on. We're predicting there is absolutely no way this will work with 
our 100BT and 1000BT Ethernet links.

He anyone collocated with FM radio and 'it worked '?


Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.

Re: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

[Adair Winter]

We colo on a tower with three fm's on it. Double shielded cable and good
grounding. Never had a problem..

On Sep 16, 2017 1:13 PM, "Jon Langeler"  wrote:

> Theres a potentially new FM radio tenant wanting to colocate on a tower we
> are already on. We're predicting there is absolutely no way this will work
> with our 100BT and 1000BT Ethernet links.
>
> He anyone collocated with FM radio and 'it worked '?
>
>
> Jon Langeler
> Michwave Technologies, Inc.
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

[Jon Langeler]

50' difference and frequency of 99.5mhz

I don't see how 100BT could possibly work 

Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.


> On Sep 16, 2017, at 3:26 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
> 
> Depends on how close they are to your APs and how much power.
> 
> You can Use fiber or run all cat5 in liquidtight (with the metal armor) all 
> the way to the radio.
> 
> -Sean
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 1:13 PM Jon Langeler  
>> wrote:
>> Theres a potentially new FM radio tenant wanting to colocate on a tower we 
>> are already on. We're predicting there is absolutely no way this will work 
>> with our 100BT and 1000BT Ethernet links.
>> 
>> He anyone collocated with FM radio and 'it worked '?
>> 
>> 
>> Jon Langeler
>> Michwave Technologies, Inc.
>> 

Re: [AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

[Sean Heskett]

Depends on how close they are to your APs and how much power.

You can Use fiber or run all cat5 in liquidtight (with the metal armor) all
the way to the radio.

-Sean


On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 1:13 PM Jon Langeler 
wrote:

> Theres a potentially new FM radio tenant wanting to colocate on a tower we
> are already on. We're predicting there is absolutely no way this will work
> with our 100BT and 1000BT Ethernet links.
>
> He anyone collocated with FM radio and 'it worked '?
>
>
> Jon Langeler
> Michwave Technologies, Inc.
>
>

[AFMUG] FM radio colocation interference?

[Jon Langeler]

Theres a potentially new FM radio tenant wanting to colocate on a tower we are 
already on. We're predicting there is absolutely no way this will work with our 
100BT and 1000BT Ethernet links. 

He anyone collocated with FM radio and 'it worked '?


Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.