Re: [agi] AGI's and emotions
Hi Ben, Question: Will AGI's experience emotions like humans do? Answer: http://www.goertzel.org/dynapsyc/2004/Emotions.htm I'm wondering whether *social* organisms are likely to have a more active emotional life because inner psychological states need to be flagged physiologically to other organisms that need to be able to read their states. This will also apply across species in the case of challenge and response situations (buzz off or I'll bite you, etc.). Your point about the physiological states operating outside the mental processes (that are handled by the multiverse modeller) being likely to bring on feelings of emotion makes sense in a situation involving trans-entity communication. It would be possible for physiologically flagged emotional states (flushed face/body, raised hackles, bared teeth snarl, broad grin, aroused sexual organs, etc.) to trigger a (pre-patterned?) response in another organism on an organism-wide decentralised basis - tying in with your idea that certain responses require a degree of speed that precludes centralised processing. So my guess would be that emotions in AIs would be more common/stronger if the AIs are *social* (ie. capable of relating to any other entitites ie. other AIs or with social biological entities) and they are able to both 'read' (and perhaps 'express/flag') psychological states - through 'body language' as well as verbal language. Maybe emotions, as humans experience them, are actually a muddled (and therefore interesting!?) hybrid of inner confusion in the multiverse modelling system and also a broad patterened communication system for projecting and reading *psychological states* where the reason(s) for the state is not communicated but the existence of the state is regarded (subconsciously?/pre-programmed?) by one or both of the parties in the communication as being important. Will AIs need to be able to share *psychological states* as opposed to detailed rational data with other AIs? If AIs are to be good at communicating with humans, then chances are that the AIs will need to be able to convey some psychological states to humans since humans seem to want to be able to read this sort of information. Cheers, Philip --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [agi] AGI's and emotions
Hi, You've made two comments in two posts; I'll respond to them both together 1) that sociality may be necessary for spiritual joy to emerge in a mind Response: Clearly sociality is one thing that can push a mind in the direction of appreciating its oneness with the universe but I don't see why it's the only thing that can do so I think the basic intuitive truths underlying spiritual traditions can be recognized by ANY mind that is self-aware and reflective, not just by a social mind. For instance, if a mind introspects into the way it constructs percepts, actions and objects -- the interpenetration of the perceived and constructed worlds -- then it can be led down the path of grokking the harmony between the inner and outer worlds, in a way that has nothing to do with sociality. 2) that sociality will lead to more intense emotions than asociality Response: I don't think so. I think that emotions are largely caused by the experience of having one's mind-state controlled by internal forces way outside one's will Now, in humans, some of these responses are specifically induced by other humans or animals -- therefore some of our emotions are explicitly social in nature. But this doesn't imply that emotions are necessarily social, nor that sociality is necessarily emotional -- at least not in any obvious way that I can see I suppose you could try to construct an argument that sociality presents computational problems that can ONLY be dealt with by mental subsystems that operate in an automated way, outside of the scope of human will However, I don't at present believe this to be true... -- Ben G -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Philip Sutton Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 9:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [agi] AGI's and emotions Hi Ben, Question: Will AGI's experience emotions like humans do? Answer: http://www.goertzel.org/dynapsyc/2004/Emotions.htm I'm wondering whether *social* organisms are likely to have a more active emotional life because inner psychological states need to be flagged physiologically to other organisms that need to be able to read their states. This will also apply across species in the case of challenge and response situations (buzz off or I'll bite you, etc.). Your point about the physiological states operating outside the mental processes (that are handled by the multiverse modeller) being likely to bring on feelings of emotion makes sense in a situation involving trans-entity communication. It would be possible for physiologically flagged emotional states (flushed face/body, raised hackles, bared teeth snarl, broad grin, aroused sexual organs, etc.) to trigger a (pre-patterned?) response in another organism on an organism-wide decentralised basis - tying in with your idea that certain responses require a degree of speed that precludes centralised processing. So my guess would be that emotions in AIs would be more common/stronger if the AIs are *social* (ie. capable of relating to any other entitites ie. other AIs or with social biological entities) and they are able to both 'read' (and perhaps 'express/flag') psychological states - through 'body language' as well as verbal language. Maybe emotions, as humans experience them, are actually a muddled (and therefore interesting!?) hybrid of inner confusion in the multiverse modelling system and also a broad patterened communication system for projecting and reading *psychological states* where the reason(s) for the state is not communicated but the existence of the state is regarded (subconsciously?/pre-programmed?) by one or both of the parties in the communication as being important. Will AIs need to be able to share *psychological states* as opposed to detailed rational data with other AIs? If AIs are to be good at communicating with humans, then chances are that the AIs will need to be able to convey some psychological states to humans since humans seem to want to be able to read this sort of information. Cheers, Philip --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [agi] AGI's and emotions
Hi Ben, Why would an AGI be driven to achieve *general* harmony between inner and outer worlds - rather than just specific cases of congruence? Why would a desire for specific cases of congruence between the inner and outer worlds lead an AGI (that is not programmed or trained to do so) to appreciate (desire??) to want to be at one with the *universe* (when you use that term do you mean the Universe or just the outer world?)? And is a desire to seek *general* congruence between the inner and outser world via changing the world rather changing the self a good recipe for creating a megalomaniac? Cheers, Philip --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [agi] AGI's and emotions
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Philip Sutton Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [agi] AGI's and emotions Hi Ben, Why would an AGI be driven to achieve *general* harmony between inner and outer worlds - rather than just specific cases of congruence? If one of its guiding principles is to seek maximum joy -- and (as I've hypothesized) the intensity of a quale is proportional to the size of the pattern to which the quale is attached -- then it will seek general harmony because this is a bigger pattern than more specialized harmony. Why would a desire for specific cases of congruence between the inner and outer worlds lead an AGI (that is not programmed or trained to do so) to appreciate (desire??) to want to be at one with the *universe* (when you use that term do you mean the Universe or just the outer world?)? The desire for inner/outer congruence is a special case of the desire for pattern-finding, as manifested in the desires for Growth and Joy that I've posited as desirable guiding principles... And is a desire to seek *general* congruence between the inner and outser world via changing the world rather changing the self a good recipe for creating a megalomaniac? This is the sort of reason why I don't posit Joy and Growth in themselves as the ideal ethic. Adding Choice ot the mix provides a principle-level motivation not to impose one's own will upon the universe without considering the wills of others as well... ben g --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [agi] AGI's and emotions
Hi Ben, Adding Choice to the mix provides a principle-level motivation not to impose one's own will upon the universe without considering the wills of others as well... Whose choice - everyone or the AGI? That has to be specified in the ethic - otherwise it could be the AGI only - then the AGI would *certainly* consider the wills of others as well but only to see that they did not block the will of the AGI. A non-carefully structured goal set leading to the pursuit of choice/growth/joy could still lead to a megalomaniac, seems to me. Cheers, Philip To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [agi] AGI's and emotions
Yes, of course a brief ethical slogan like "choice, growth and joy" is underspecified and all the terms need to be better defined, either by example or by formal elucidation, etc. I carry out some of this elucidation in the Encouraging a Positive Transcension essay that triggered this whole dialogue... ben g -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Philip SuttonSent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 7:57 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [agi] AGI's and emotions Hi Ben, Adding Choice to the mix provides a principle-level motivation not to impose one's own will upon the universe without considering the wills of others as well... Whose choice - everyone or the AGI? That has to be specified in the ethic - otherwise it could be the AGI only - then the AGI would *certainly* "consider the wills of others as well" but only to see that they did not block the will of the AGI. A non-carefully structured goal set leading to the pursuit of choice/growth/joy could still lead to a megalomaniac, seems to me. Cheers, Philip To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
