Re: [agi] How Would You Design a Play Machine?
On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Terren Suydam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > If an AGI played because it recognized that it would improve its skills in > some domain, then I wouldn't call that play, I'd call it practice. Those are > overlapping but distinct concepts. > The evolution of play is how nature has convinced us to practice skills of a general but un-predefinable type. Would it make sense to think of practice as the narrow AI version of play? Part of play is the specification of arbitrary goals and limitations within the overlying process. Games without rules aren't 'fun' to people or kittens. > > Play, as distinct from pactice, is its own reward - the reward felt by a > kitten. The spirit of Mike's question, I think, was about identifying the > essential goalless-ness of play, the sense in which playing fosters > adaptivity of goals. If you really want to interpret goal-satisfaction in > play, it must be a meta-goal of mastering one's environment - and that is > such a broadly defined goal that I don't see how one could specify it to a > seed AI. I believe that's why evolution used the "trick" of making it fun. > But making it 'fun' doesn't answer the question of what the implicit goals are. Piaget's theories of assimilation can bring us closer to this, I am of the mind that they encompass at least part of the intellectual drive toward play and investigation. Jonathan El-Bizri --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=111637683-c8fa51 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How Would You Design a Play Machine?
On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Vladimir Nesov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The word "because" was misplaced. Cats hunt mice because they were > designed to, and they were designed to, because it's adaptive. And the adaption they have evolved in to, uses a pleasure process as a motivator. Saying > that a particular cat instance hunts because it feels good is not very > explanatory, like saying that it hunts because such is its nature or > because the laws of physics drive the cat physical configuration > through the hunting dynamics. Not at all. It defines the process by drives a cat to hunt, and also to practice - ie - "play" hunting. This is opposed to hunting due to reflex, like, say, a venus flytrap. I am reminded of a possibly apocryphal story about picasso: -- A woman asks Picasso to draw something for her on a napkin. He puts down a few lines, and says "That will be $10,000." "What!" says the woman, "That only took you five seconds to draw." "No, that took me 40 years to draw." - Cats has evolved to see the process as a goal or reward in itself, over and above the requirements for food: If cats just hunted because they were hungry, they would never spend their downtime during kittenhood practicing and watching other cats hunt, and wouldn't be any good at hunting. And the result has many more advantages than simply optimising it's hunting strategies: it has evolved a cat that bonds with it's fellow kittens, learns to cooperate, and ultimately, becomes a better hunter because it sees the process of hunting as a game. Jonathan El-Bizri --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=111637683-c8fa51 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] The Necessity of Embodiment
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 5:04 AM, Jim Bromer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There is a another reason why embodied agi is useful. That is because > the challenge will provide some discipline for the programmer who > might otherwise never confront the structural problems that I believe > are fundamental to the problem of developing genuine agi. > Jim Bromer > I don't follow. I can conceive of non-embodied intellect: an intellect that can only interact with aspects of itself, though such a thing would be pointless and, from our current point of view, (even more) unpossible to build. As I understand it, embodiments fundamental advantage is in the creation of an environment cognitively similar to our own for AGI development, so that we can utilize cognitive models and understanding we already have, in order to develop an intellect. An aid for the programmer, rather than mandatory aspect AGI. Jonathan El-bizri --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=111637683-c8fa51 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
[agi] San Francisco AGI reading group?
Email lists are all very well, but I must confess that I've been primed by thousands of years of evolution for the exchange of ideas via aural dissemination in a real time environment. And preferably around a camp fire accompanied by some kind of burnt animal meat on a stick and a fermented beverage. However, being a vegan and having no suitable camp sites in my apartment, I'm toying with the idea of setting up a monthly reading group to discuss agi literature in San Francisco. The fermented beverages - that I can do. No need to bother everyone with the practicalities and/or potential topics here. If you are interested, please contact me off list, and I will get organizing. And if there is already a group meeting, hit me over the head and let me know where I should show up. :> Jonathan El-Bizri --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=111637683-c8fa51 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
[agi] Article: A New State of Mind - Dopamine, reinforcement learning and intellectual concepts
Interesting article on the discovery of the connection between dopamine, reinforcement learning and social neuroscience in a recent Seed Magazine article: "Evolution essentially bootstrapped our penchant for intellectual concepts to the same reward circuits that govern our animal appetites." http://www.seedmagazine.com/news/2008/08/a_new_state_of_mind.php Jonathan El-Bizri --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=111637683-c8fa51 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
[agi] An overdue introduction
I just realized that my emails have been ignored by the list-serv, which explains the stunning silence I had received for all my earlier posts. It's probably for the best :> In any case, here's a repost of my introduction. That was both delayed, and is also no longer overdue, since my earlier comments never arrived :> Jonathan El-Bizri On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Jonathan El-Bizri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Somewhere between lurking and my abysmal attempts to interject levity in to > the grand AGI flame wars of 2008, an introduction was missed out. I am sure > I have met a number of you at last year's singularity summit, which I > assisted with, or will meet you at this year's, where I will be assisting > again. > > I am in my second year of a masters in research psychology at San Francisco > state. My (current) thesis involves the psychological constructs of the mind > in regards to online entities: how we conceive and relate to synthetic > groups, such as this email list, or your friends on facebook, and also > complex non-human systems, as they become more nuanced and intelligent. > > I am also working towards PMP Project and Program Management Certifications > (despite a decade of 'real world' work, one is still required to take an > undergraduate class to qualify for the examination :/) This scholastic > endeavour is my second (third?) life: before this I was a dot-commer, > working at start ups, before eventually getting swallowed by Microsoft and > then Juniper Networks. And before that, I wrote video game soundtracks (I'm > sure you've played some of my games :>) and tv commercials, and managed the > production group at a small game firm. > > I am hoping to contribute to the opencog project (which I expect is mostly > populated with people from this list) my experience in project management > and the cognitive sciences. To that end, I am currently reviewing the > developmental psychology texts of my undergraduate days, in order to refresh > myself, and with the additional intention of writing a review of the > literature suitable for the non-developmental non-psychologist working in > AGI (and as a springboard towards further research of this type). If anyone > can point me in the direction of similar work of this fashion, it would be > appreciated - so far, the topic does not seem well covered, which is good > news for me, after a fashion. > > The AGIRI wiki states there is a need for research into cognitive > development and other aspects of psychological science. Does anyone know who > would be the best person to get in contact with in this regard? I assume > that the overlap between AGIRI and opencog project to be substantial, if not > complete. And, who would be good people to discuss the appropriate nature of > my contributions to the Opencog project? > > And finally: can someone recomend a good IRC client so I can join the chat > channel? I haven't used IRC since the 90s... > > Regards, > > Jonathan El-Bizri > --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=111637683-c8fa51 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
