RE: [agi] Write a doctoral dissertation, trigger a Singularity
Don't get me wrong I am glad this book exists and I am not disappointed on reading it. Compared to 1000's of other manuals and softwares I've gone through this is incredibly unique, like a work of art. The passion, sincerity and imagination in the book is admirable. OK I wouldn't take this as an AI bible. But after looking at so much of the same, boring regurgitations, getting something unique it's refreshing that there is some independent thought going on. John From: Mark Waser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :-)The epiphany strikes . . . . :-) One of the hard lessons I've learned in life is that it is very possible for people to understand the highest levels of a given concept/field and the lowest/grittiest details and have absolutely no clue about the middle or how to join them (or often, reality in general). In my professional life, I have been suckered by job-seekers who could talk the high-level talk, provide code (which it was quite clear later that they weren't capable of having produced), and handle reasonably short problems but were absolutely worthless once employed. Actually, suckered is probably the wrong word since my experience is also that these individuals truly believe that they are at least as competent as most people in the field (if not better). I'd classify Mike Tintner as a similar individual. - Original Message - From: John G. Rose mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Here's Murray's book AI4U - http://books.iuniverse.com/viewbooks.asp?isbn=0595654371 http://books.iuniverse.com/viewbooks.asp?isbn=0595654371page=fm3 page=fm3 I just speed read this book this afternoon and I'm floored because it defies classification. The chapters are devoted to JavaScript functions within the Mind for MSIE (MSIE = Internet Explorer browser). Think about it, a mind in JavaScript. And then superfluous and exaggerated wordiness about concepts which may be represented by just a few lines of JavaScript, and the whole JS code is like 50 pages, but the grandiose terminology with deep philosophical and sci-fi references mixed in with weak Chomskyisms, robotics, cog-sci and Psychic Area Networks...wow. It's like a 1950's theoretical AI software manual written by Franz Bardon, using 1980's ASCII art, modernized for pseudo AGI design, while Frankensteining together diverse philosophical, psychological, linguistic and introspective thought analysis... phew.. unbelievable. I didn't know whether to laugh, cry, pray or call the psychic hotline. It deserves to be in a museum. John From: John G. Rose [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] He definitely has a great vocabulary you have to admit and he is a good showman. Also his critiques of others writings is interesting and humorous as well. As far as the technical validity of his AI project I don't know because I'm still struggling with the ASCII diagrams J John From: Mark Waser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Some people are thrown by unusual ways of communicating, some are not. Murray is drawing pretty consistent ratings/opinions (in terms of the validity of his content) so I don't think that it is his communications style that is the problem. Personally, I judge content value on some vague formula involving communication size, correct and new content, incorrect content, and how easily I can tell the latter two apart. Murray's posts have *very* little intelligence and wisdom particularly when compared the the amount of just plain incorrect content. Thus, he has negligible content value for me. On the other hand, since I tend not to freak -- he certainly does have some humor values (and there but for the grace . . . ) - Original Message - From: John G. Rose mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Different people have different ways of communicating. Many Murray posts are sprinkled with annoyances but then they do have some intelligence and wisdom. They remind me of a W. C. Fields like way of speaking with some Snake Oil salesmanship. Actual Snake Oil BTW can be good for certain things but fake Snake Oil is fake, hence the reputation. More generally speaking I have found from my experience that some of the worst communicators have the most to say and some of the best communicators, the least. Not to say Murray is a bad communicator, but we have grown accustomed to marginalizing people who break the mold thus minimizing the variances of personalities. Part of this is due to a franchised-like educational system that has existed for several decades. Our personality pool is diminishing due to efficiency rewardsmanship. Also things like dialects, language variations, cultural variations, etc. are evening out, we are becoming an optimized, homogenized society. Will AGI's follow the same trend and have minimal personality variations and maximal text-book style efficiency of communication? Sometimes breaking the mold of expressing oneself can have maximal effect of conveying an idea or
Re: [agi] Write a doctoral dissertation, trigger a Singularity
The signal/noise ratio on this list is starting to get pretty bad. And why do people always quote the entire prior message in their responses? Is it so hard to highlight and delete? -- Michael Anissimov Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com http://acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
RE: [agi] Write a doctoral dissertation, trigger a Singularity
Different people have different ways of communicating. Many Murray posts are sprinkled with annoyances but then they do have some intelligence and wisdom. They remind me of a W. C. Fields like way of speaking with some Snake Oil salesmanship. Actual Snake Oil BTW can be good for certain things but fake Snake Oil is fake, hence the reputation. More generally speaking I have found from my experience that some of the worst communicators have the most to say and some of the best communicators, the least. Not to say Murray is a bad communicator, but we have grown accustomed to marginalizing people who break the mold thus minimizing the variances of personalities. Part of this is due to a franchised-like educational system that has existed for several decades. Our personality pool is diminishing due to efficiency rewardsmanship. Also things like dialects, language variations, cultural variations, etc. are evening out, we are becoming an optimized, homogenized society. Will AGI's follow the same trend and have minimal personality variations and maximal text-book style efficiency of communication? Sometimes breaking the mold of expressing oneself can have maximal effect of conveying an idea or ideas. I'm reminded of once taking a class where the instructor spoke very fast on purpose like an auctioneer. Some students immediately freaked because it was abnormal but the theory was explained and it did work as intended where there was a very high transfer rate of information and rapid two-way communication. Computers, esp. AGI's could experiment intentionally with different twists on language perhaps finding new and better ways of communicating. John Personally, I find many of his posts highly entertaining... If your sense of humor differs, you can always use the DEL key ;-) -- Ben G On 5/20/07, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why is Murray allowed to remain on this mailing list, anyway? As a warning to others? The others don't appear to be taking the hint. - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] Write a doctoral dissertation, trigger a Singularity
Some people are thrown by unusual ways of communicating, some are not. Murray is drawing pretty consistent ratings/opinions (in terms of the validity of his content) so I don't think that it is his communications style that is the problem. Personally, I judge content value on some vague formula involving communication size, correct and new content, incorrect content, and how easily I can tell the latter two apart. Murray's posts have *very* little intelligence and wisdom particularly when compared the the amount of just plain incorrect content. Thus, he has negligible content value for me. On the other hand, since I tend not to freak -- he certainly does have some humor values (and there but for the grace . . . ) - Original Message - From: John G. Rose To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 10:56 AM Subject: RE: [agi] Write a doctoral dissertation, trigger a Singularity Different people have different ways of communicating. Many Murray posts are sprinkled with annoyances but then they do have some intelligence and wisdom. They remind me of a W. C. Fields like way of speaking with some Snake Oil salesmanship. Actual Snake Oil BTW can be good for certain things but fake Snake Oil is fake, hence the reputation. More generally speaking I have found from my experience that some of the worst communicators have the most to say and some of the best communicators, the least. Not to say Murray is a bad communicator, but we have grown accustomed to marginalizing people who break the mold thus minimizing the variances of personalities. Part of this is due to a franchised-like educational system that has existed for several decades. Our personality pool is diminishing due to efficiency rewardsmanship. Also things like dialects, language variations, cultural variations, etc. are evening out, we are becoming an optimized, homogenized society. Will AGI's follow the same trend and have minimal personality variations and maximal text-book style efficiency of communication? Sometimes breaking the mold of expressing oneself can have maximal effect of conveying an idea or ideas. I'm reminded of once taking a class where the instructor spoke very fast on purpose like an auctioneer. Some students immediately freaked because it was abnormal but the theory was explained and it did work as intended where there was a very high transfer rate of information and rapid two-way communication. Computers, esp. AGI's could experiment intentionally with different twists on language perhaps finding new and better ways of communicating. John Personally, I find many of his posts highly entertaining... If your sense of humor differs, you can always use the DEL key ;-) -- Ben G On 5/20/07, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why is Murray allowed to remain on this mailing list, anyway? As a warning to others? The others don't appear to be taking the hint. -- This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?; - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
RE: [agi] Write a doctoral dissertation, trigger a Singularity
He definitely has a great vocabulary you have to admit and he is a good showman. Also his critiques of others writings is interesting and humorous as well. As far as the technical validity of his AI project I don't know because I'm still struggling with the ASCII diagrams J John From: Mark Waser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Some people are thrown by unusual ways of communicating, some are not. Murray is drawing pretty consistent ratings/opinions (in terms of the validity of his content) so I don't think that it is his communications style that is the problem. Personally, I judge content value on some vague formula involving communication size, correct and new content, incorrect content, and how easily I can tell the latter two apart. Murray's posts have *very* little intelligence and wisdom particularly when compared the the amount of just plain incorrect content. Thus, he has negligible content value for me. On the other hand, since I tend not to freak -- he certainly does have some humor values (and there but for the grace . . . ) - Original Message - From: John G. Rose mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Different people have different ways of communicating. Many Murray posts are sprinkled with annoyances but then they do have some intelligence and wisdom. They remind me of a W. C. Fields like way of speaking with some Snake Oil salesmanship. Actual Snake Oil BTW can be good for certain things but fake Snake Oil is fake, hence the reputation. More generally speaking I have found from my experience that some of the worst communicators have the most to say and some of the best communicators, the least. Not to say Murray is a bad communicator, but we have grown accustomed to marginalizing people who break the mold thus minimizing the variances of personalities. Part of this is due to a franchised-like educational system that has existed for several decades. Our personality pool is diminishing due to efficiency rewardsmanship. Also things like dialects, language variations, cultural variations, etc. are evening out, we are becoming an optimized, homogenized society. Will AGI's follow the same trend and have minimal personality variations and maximal text-book style efficiency of communication? Sometimes breaking the mold of expressing oneself can have maximal effect of conveying an idea or ideas. I'm reminded of once taking a class where the instructor spoke very fast on purpose like an auctioneer. Some students immediately freaked because it was abnormal but the theory was explained and it did work as intended where there was a very high transfer rate of information and rapid two-way communication. Computers, esp. AGI's could experiment intentionally with different twists on language perhaps finding new and better ways of communicating. John Personally, I find many of his posts highly entertaining... If your sense of humor differs, you can always use the DEL key ;-) -- Ben G - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] Write a doctoral dissertation, trigger a Singularity
Universal compassion and tolerance are the ultimate consequences of enlightenment which one Matt on the list equated IMHO erroneously to high-orbit intelligence methinx subtle humour is a much better proxy for intelligence Jean-Paul member of the 'let Murray stay' advocacy group aka 'the write 2 doctorates, trigger 2 singularities movement' just back from 2 weeks enlightenment-seeking in Indian ashram ;-) Department of Information Systems Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (+27)-(0)21-6504256 Fax: (+27)-(0)21-6502280 Office: Leslie Commerce 4.21 Benjamin Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2007/05/20 20:38:35 Personally, I find many of his posts highly entertaining... If your sense of humor differs, you can always use the DEL key ;-) -- Ben G On 5/20/07, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why is Murray allowed to remain on this mailing list, anyway? As a warning to others? The others don't appear to be taking the hint. - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] Write a doctoral dissertation, trigger a Singularity
The scholar and gentleman Jean-Paul Van Belle wrote: Universal compassion and tolerance are the ultimate consequences of enlightenment which one Matt on the list equated IMHO erroneously to high-orbit intelligence methinx subtle humour is a much better proxy for intelligence Jean-Paul member of the 'let Murray stay' advocacy group aka 'the write 2 doctorates, trigger 2 singularities movement' just back from 2 weeks enlightenment-seeking in Indian ashram ;-) Satyan eva jayate -- Sanskrit for Truth alone prevails -- quoted by Mahatma Mohandas Karamchand Ghandi, who also said, First they laugh at you, then they fear you, then they fight you, then you win. By way of explanation... The original message of this thread is also at http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/edcohelp.html as a kind of staging area for AGI Help Wanted appeals from the SourceForge AI Mind project. Now v.t.y. Mentifex here is preparing to ask for Russian and German translations of AI docs. Members of this liberal, all-ideas-welcome list may enjoy some of the Everything2 links below. http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1013306 AI should be our top priority http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1043865 AI virus http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=563003 aspects of American society that may be new to you http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1228930 the birth of artificial intelligence http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=11298 But who codes the coders? http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=452676 butterfly effect http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=51480 coding standards http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=134452 Cogito ergo sum http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=12718 Dark Side of the Moon http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=32693 Dr. Strangelove, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=774320 +* Excuse me, may I blow your mind? [the failure of Mentifex is not] http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1521490 the failure of artificial intelligence http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=938762 From now on, any ordinary knowledge is no longer going to satisfy you, I'm afraid http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=76962 futurism http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=55865 futurist http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=40987 FWIW http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=624119 * Geeks of the world unite http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=472395 hack reality http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=445357 + A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=965284 A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Hubris http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=426116 * I am not a hacker http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=675507 I Am Not a Lawyer http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=113825 I am not making this up http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=494930 I can't decide whether to change the world or just become a bitter recluse http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=559881 ** I just bought real estate in your mind http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=670519 ** I refute him thus! http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=584208 * I speak for the Borg http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=870562 I'm at a programming roadblock http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1336607 I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1188429 in defense of robot domination http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=19005 Information wants to be free http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=606019 Information War is coming: whose side are you on? http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=745413 Is development in AI bad? http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=73157 Let's Play Global Thermonuclear War One of the http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1522443 limitations on artificial intelligence is that True AI needs to be translated into more languages. http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=61306 The Matrix http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=525319 The Matrix is going down for a reboot in 5 minutes: all users, please save your data and log out http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=111373 meatspace http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=12366 meme http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1401073 meme hijack http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=48303 mission statement http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=121864 MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=36338 noosphere http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=177121 Omega http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=523623 Omega Point http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=877088 only in America http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=45103 otaku
[agi] Write a doctoral dissertation, trigger a Singularity
University graduate students in computer science, linguistics, psychology, neuroscience and so on need a suitable topic for that scholarly contribution known as a Ph.D. dissertation. The SourceForge Mind project in artificial intelligence, on the other hand, needs entree into the academic AI literature. Why not start your academic career with a blockbuster dissertation? Think back to Erwin Schrodinger writing his equation in 1926. He got the idea from a French physicist who had recently defended his doctoral dissertation. Talk about the impact of a dissertation -- it literally had the bang of an atomic bomb. Your impact, Dr. Science, could be even greater. Your Ph.D. thesis could trigger the doomsday scenario of the Technological Singularity. The Singularity is near, but it hasn't happened yet because you have not yet submitted your bestseller-book-quality dissertation. CRITICAL MASS The AI Manhattan Project will not get off the ground until we assemble a scientific infrastructure of experts trained in the theory and practice of constructing artificially intelligent minds for robots. A few prototypes such as http://AIMind-I.com and http://mind.sourceforge.net/Mind.html are already out there, but we need a pre-Cambrian explosion of virally proliferating Mind versions if there is to be a Darwinian eco-system of AI Minds racing through the Internet and engaging in the mortal competition ending in the survival of the fittest. Your book qua Ph.D. dissertation may suceed where AI4U has failed -- as the Gutenberg Bible of the arrival of True AI-Complete. You may start by simply publishing a few scholarly papers on open-source artificial intelligence. Magazine and newspaper articles may flow from you, but the real target is academia. You are permitted -- and in fact it is your duty -- to take a critical stance towards the extraordinary scientific claims made when the Mind project asserts that AI has been solved, but you should shy away from embarassing yourself through woefully ignorant Mentifex-bashing such as happened with the http://www.advogato.org/article/928.html Advogato Has Failed debacle, where the author could not himself discredit Mentifex and so he ignorantly cited two attacks on Mentifex that were actually written by one and the same Internet cyberstalker. We want here a growing tree of scientific illumination, not a chain of thoughtless me-too ad-hominem sniper attacks. Above all avoid the endless, non-productive jawboning about artificial intelligence such as occurs year in and year out at http://www.mail-archive.com/agi@v2.listbox.com and other forums where blowhard discussants quibble about the AI climate but never write any code that advances the state of the art. So develop a thesis and run it by your faculty advisor. Stay aloof from the Mind project to keep your independence. When the facts are in and your case is made, publish and become a Philosophiae Doctor -- a teacher of philosophy. - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=fabd7936
Re: [agi] Write a doctoral dissertation, trigger a Singularity
Why is Murray allowed to remain on this mailing list, anyway? As a warning to others? The others don't appear to be taking the hint. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=fabd7936
Re: [agi] Write a doctoral dissertation, trigger a Singularity
Personally, I find many of his posts highly entertaining... If your sense of humor differs, you can always use the DEL key ;-) -- Ben G On 5/20/07, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why is Murray allowed to remain on this mailing list, anyway? As a warning to others? The others don't appear to be taking the hint. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?; - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=fabd7936
Re: [agi] Write a doctoral dissertation, trigger a Singularity
On 5/20/07, Benjamin Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I find many of his posts highly entertaining... If your sense of humor differs, you can always use the DEL key ;-) -- Ben G I initially found it sad and disturbing, no, disturbed. Thanks to Mark I was able to see the humor in it and I've created the appropriate filter to direct future such posts to my humor file. - Jef - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=fabd7936
