Re: [agi] I Can't Be In Two Places At Once.
3. I think it is extremely important, that we give an AGI no bias about space and time as we seem to have. Our intuitive understanding of space and time is useful for our life on earth but it is completely wrong as we know from theory of relativity and quantum physics. -Matthias Heger Well, for the purpose of creating the first human-level AGI, it seems important **to** wire in humanlike bias about space and time ... this will greatly ease the task of teaching the system to use our language and communicate with us effectively... But I agree that not **all** AGIs should have this inbuilt biasing ... for instance an AGI hooked directly to quantum microworld sensors could become a kind of quantum mind with a totally different intuition for the physical world than we have... ben g --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=114414975-3c8e69 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] I Can't Be In Two Places At Once.
Well, for the purpose of creating the first human-level AGI, it seems important **to** wire in humanlike bias about space and time ... this will greatly ease the task of teaching the system to use our language and communicate with us effectively... The same thing occurred to me while browsing this thread. We really want an AGI that can function with human-like ease in a simulated Earth-like environment for reasons of training and communication. But by no means should this be the limit of its abilities! You'd like an intelligence that functions with native casualness while embodied in VR but can make smooth transitions into entirely different modalities without the time it spends there biasing its behavior in other ones. I mean, you want an AGI to be a master of all modes and to be able to switch between them seamlessly, neither of which are particularly lauded properties of human intelligence. It kind of goes to reinforce the notion that strong AI will likely be strongly non-human. On 10/5/08, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3. I think it is extremely important, that we give an AGI no bias about space and time as we seem to have. Our intuitive understanding of space and time is useful for our life on earth but it is completely wrong as we know from theory of relativity and quantum physics. -Matthias Heger Well, for the purpose of creating the first human-level AGI, it seems important **to** wire in humanlike bias about space and time ... this will greatly ease the task of teaching the system to use our language and communicate with us effectively... But I agree that not **all** AGIs should have this inbuilt biasing ... for instance an AGI hooked directly to quantum microworld sensors could become a kind of quantum mind with a totally different intuition for the physical world than we have... ben g --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=114414975-3c8e69 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] I Can't Be In Two Places At Once.
Matthias: I think it is extremely important, that we give an AGI no bias about space and time as we seem to have. Well, I ( possibly Ben) have been talking about an entity that is in many places at once - not in NO place. I have no idea how you would swing that - other than what we already have - machines that are information-processors with no sense of identity at all.Do you? --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=114414975-3c8e69 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] I Can't Be In Two Places At Once.
Mike Tintner wrote: Matthias: I think it is extremely important, that we give an AGI no bias about space and time as we seem to have. Well, I ( possibly Ben) have been talking about an entity that is in many places at once - not in NO place. I have no idea how you would swing that - other than what we already have - machines that are information-processors with no sense of identity at all.Do you? --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com Seems hard to imagine information processing without identity. Intelligence is about invoking methods. Methods are created because they are expected to create a result. The result is the value - the value that allows them to be selected from many possible choices. Identity, involves placing ones powers into a situation that is unique according to place and time. If it's Matt's global brain, then it will be critical for agents to grasp the value factors - which come from the time and place one inhabits. Is it the time and space bias that is the issue? If so, what is the bias that humans have which machines shouldn't? just quick reactive thoughts... Stan --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=114414975-3c8e69 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] I Can't Be In Two Places At Once.
Matthias, First, I see both a human body-brain and a distributed entity, such as a computer network, as *physically integrated* units, with a sense of their physical integrity. The fascinating thought, (perhaps unrealistic) for me was of being able to physically look at a scene or scenes, from different POV's more or less simultaneously - a thought worth exploring. Second, your idea, AFAICT, of an unbiassed-as-to-time-and-space intelligence, while v. vague, is also worth exploring. I suspect the all-important fallacy here is of pure objectivity - the idea that an object or scene or world can be depicted WITHOUT any location or reference or comparison. When we talk of time and space, which are fictions that have no concrete existence - we are really talking (no?) of frameworks we use to locate and refer other things to. Clocks. 3/4 dimensional grids... All things have to be referred and compared to other things in order to be understood, which is an inevitably biassed process. So is there any such thing as your non-bias? Just my first stumbling thoughts. Matthias: From my points 1. and 2. it should be clear that I was not talking about a distributed AGI which is in NO place. The AGI you mean consists of several parts which are in different places. But this is already the case with the human body. The only difference is, that the parts of the distributed AGI can be placed several kilometers from each other. But this is only a quantitative and not a qualitative point. Now to my statement of an useful representation of space and time for AGI. We know, that our intuitive understanding of space and time works very well in our life. But the ultimate goal of AGI is that it can solve problems which are very difficult for us. If we give an AGI bias of a model of space and time which is not state of the art of the knowledge we have from physics, then we give AGI a certain limitation which we ourselves suffer from and which is not necessary for an AGI. This point has nothing to do with the question whether the AGI is distributed or not. I mentioned this point because your question has relations to the more fundamental question whether and which bias we should give AGI for the representation of space and time. Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Mike Tintner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Samstag, 4. Oktober 2008 14:13 An: agi@v2.listbox.com Betreff: Re: [agi] I Can't Be In Two Places At Once. Matthias: I think it is extremely important, that we give an AGI no bias about space and time as we seem to have. Well, I ( possibly Ben) have been talking about an entity that is in many places at once - not in NO place. I have no idea how you would swing that - other than what we already have - machines that are information-processors with no sense of identity at all.Do you? --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=114414975-3c8e69 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] I Can't Be In Two Places At Once.
yah, I discuss this in chapter 2 of The Hidden Pattern ;-) ... the short of it is: the self-model of such a mind will be radically different than that of a current human, because we create our self-models largely by analogy to our physical organisms ... intelligences w/o fixed physical embodiment will still have self-models but they will be less grounded in body metaphors ... hence radically different we can explore this different analytically, but it's hard for us to grok empathically... a hint of this is seen in the statement my son Zeb (who plays too many videogames) made: i don't like the real world as much as videogames because in the real world I always have first person view and can never switch to third person one would suspect that minds w/o fixed embodiment would have more explicitly contextualized inference, rather than so often positioning all their inferences/ideas within one default context ... for starters... ben On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 8:43 PM, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: The foundation of the human mind and system is that we can only be in one place at once, and can only be directly, fully conscious of that place. Our world picture, which we and, I think, AI/AGI tend to take for granted, is an extraordinary triumph over that limitation - our ability to conceive of the earth and universe around us, and of societies around us, projecting ourselves outward in space, and forward and backward in time. All animals are similarly based in the here and now. But,if only in principle, networked computers [or robots] offer the possibility for a conscious entity to be distributed and in several places at once, seeing and interacting with the world simultaneously from many POV's. Has anyone thought about how this would change the nature of identity and intelligence? --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be first overcome - Dr Samuel Johnson --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=114414975-3c8e69 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] I Can't Be In Two Places At Once.
I think either way - computers or robots - a distributed entity has to be looking at the world from different POV's more or less simultaneously, even if rapidly switching. My immediate intuitive response is that that would make the entity much less self-ish -much more open to merging or uniting with others. The idea of a distributed entity may well have the power to change our ideas about God/ the divine force/principle , I suspect our ideas are directly or indirectly v. located. Even if we, say, think about God or the force being everywhere, it's hard not to think of that being the same force spread out. But the idea of a distributed entity IMO opens up the possibility of an entity with a highly multiple personality - and perhaps also might make it possible to see all humans, say, and/or animals as one - an idea which has always given me, personally, a headache. Ben:yah, I discuss this in chapter 2 of The Hidden Pattern ;-) ... the short of it is: the self-model of such a mind will be radically different than that of a current human, because we create our self-models largely by analogy to our physical organisms ... intelligences w/o fixed physical embodiment will still have self-models but they will be less grounded in body metaphors ... hence radically different we can explore this different analytically, but it's hard for us to grok empathically... a hint of this is seen in the statement my son Zeb (who plays too many videogames) made: i don't like the real world as much as videogames because in the real world I always have first person view and can never switch to third person one would suspect that minds w/o fixed embodiment would have more explicitly contextualized inference, rather than so often positioning all their inferences/ideas within one default context ... for starters... ben On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 8:43 PM, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The foundation of the human mind and system is that we can only be in one place at once, and can only be directly, fully conscious of that place. Our world picture, which we and, I think, AI/AGI tend to take for granted, is an extraordinary triumph over that limitation - our ability to conceive of the earth and universe around us, and of societies around us, projecting ourselves outward in space, and forward and backward in time. All animals are similarly based in the here and now. But,if only in principle, networked computers [or robots] offer the possibility for a conscious entity to be distributed and in several places at once, seeing and interacting with the world simultaneously from many POV's. Has anyone thought about how this would change the nature of identity and intelligence? --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be first overcome - Dr Samuel Johnson -- agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=114414975-3c8e69 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
