Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Treasuror] Resolution of August 2021 VA 2

[Trigon via agora-business]

On 01/09/2021 05:51, Ørjan Johansen via agora-discussion wrote:

On Wed, 1 Sep 2021, Trigon via agora-business wrote:

All I was going to say is that I grant myself a victory point pursuant 
to my focus.


Well then, why don't you?

Whistles innocently,
Ørjan.


*sigh*

If I haven't already done so this month, I grant myself a victory point 
pursuant to my focus.


--
Trigon

 ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST





I’m always happy to become a party to contracts.
I LOVE SPAGHETTI
transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

BUS: Re: OFF: [Treasuror] Resolution of August 2021 VA 2

[Trigon via agora-business]

On 01/09/2021 05:32, Trigon wrote:

On 01/09/2021 05:29, Trigon via agora-official wrote:

The Retrieval Period of the Second Victory Auction of August 2021 having
ended at 05:15:48 on 01 September 2021, I hereby bring an end to this
auction.



BIDS ON THIS AUCTION


-- FOR THE WIN CARD --

[2021-08-25 05:02:52] (3) R. Lee 500cn
[2021-08-25 05:06:34] Trigon 635cn
[2021-08-25 05:10:44] (2) Jason  650cn
[2021-08-25 05:13:14] (1) Trigon 775cn

-- FOR THE JUSTICE CARD --

[2021-08-25 05:02:52] R. Lee 150cn
[2021-08-25 05:04:41] (3) Aspen  200cn
[2021-08-25 05:10:44] (2) Jason  275cn
[2021-08-25 05:15:48] (1) R. Lee 300cn

Bids marked with numbers in parenthesis show priority on a lot.
Bids marked with asterisks are bids from withdrawn players.



DISTRIBUTION


Trigon wins the first lot, containing one new victory card, for 775
coins.

R. Lee wins the second lot, containing one justice card owned by the
Lost and Found Department, for 300 coins.

This message serves to make the appropriate exchanges indicated above.




Being now the proud owner of four victory cards, I pay them in order to 
gain ten victory points. Oh, and I also




These premature sends are really annoying, aren't they?

All I was going to say is that I grant myself a victory point pursuant 
to my focus.


--
Trigon

 ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST





I’m always happy to become a party to contracts.
I LOVE SPAGHETTI
transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

Re: BUS: So does glitter work at all? [@Arbitor, Tailor]

[Jason Cobb via agora-business]

On 9/1/21 00:23, ais523 via agora-business wrote:
> It also seems possible that there's been a Rulekeepor error related to
> the rule in question, and the online FLR doesn't match the actual
> ruleset; I haven't looked into this.


I don't think I managed to mess this one up. See [0] and [1], which both
include the unmatched double quote.

[0]:
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-official/2021-July/015148.html

[1]:
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-official/2021-July/015132.html

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

BUS: So does glitter work at all? [@Arbitor, Tailor]

[ais523 via agora-business]

I award myself Blue Glitter. (I judged CFJ 3925 recently, already have
a Blue Ribbon, and have not tried to claim Blue Glitter since.)

CFJ: The Tailor SHALL and CAN grant me coins as a consequence of my
Blue Glitter award earlier in this message.

Evidence: this message, and the following quote from the online FLR:
{{{
Rule 2602/7 (Power=1)
Glitter

  "Each type of Ribbon has a corresponding type of Glitter with the
  same name. A player qualifies for a type of Glitter when e
  qualifies for the same type of Ribbon while already owning such a
  Ribbon. If a player has not been awarded that type of Ribbon or e
  corresponding type of Glitter since e last earned or came to
  qualify for that type of Ribbon, and has not been so awarded five
  or more times within the past 24 hours, any player CAN award em
  that type of Glitter by announcement. When a player gains a type
  of Glitter, the Tailor SHALL in an officially timely fashion and
  CAN once by announcement award em N/2 boatloads of coins rounded
  up, where N is the number of players that did not own the
  corresponding type of Ribbon at the time of the award. The amount
  payable for each type of Glitter is tracked in the Tailor's 
  weekly report.

Rule 2577/6 (Power=3), exerpt
Asset Actions

  For an entity to gain (historical syn. earn) an asset is for that
  asset to be created in that entity's possession. To grant an
  entity an asset is to create it in eir possession.
}}}

Arguments:
{{{
The version of Rule 2602 on the online FLR is a mess. In addition to an
unmatched double quote, it starts by defining the circumstances in
which a player "qualifies" for glitter, but then probably ignores them
(it may be that an oddly placed "that" is trying to point to this
definition). It then continues by saying that a player can be "awarded"
glitter if they haven't had glitter for a redundant earning of a
Ribbon. That's the action I took in the message where I called this
CFJ.

However, the Tailor's coin reward is based on "gaining" glitter. What
relationship does this have to being awarded it? The term "award" is
normally used for Ribbons and for Patent Titles, whereas "gain" is
typically used for assets; neither a Ribbon nor a Patent Title is an
asset. "Gain" is mentioned in the definition of the White Ribbon,
though. Rule 2577 mentions "gain" as a historical synonym for "earn",
which doesn't really help matters much (it may make the White Ribbon's
definition easier to understand, but maybe not); also, defining
something as a historical synonym doesn't necessarily imply that the
synonym exists now.

If being "awarded" glitter causes you to "gain" it, then is the glitter
itself some sort of tracked object? Perhaps an asset, or a Patent
Title? Or is this meant as some sort of hypothetical condition that
rules can look at (in which case there's no obvious reason to link
"gain" to "award"?).

It also seems possible that there's been a Rulekeepor error related to
the rule in question, and the online FLR doesn't match the actual
ruleset; I haven't looked into this.
}}}

-- 
ais523

Re: BUS: Trading with Trigon [attn. Treasuror, Referee]

[Aspen via agora-business]

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 8:57 PM Trigon via agora-business <
agora-business@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On 01/09/2021 03:55, Trigon wrote:
> > On 01/09/2021 02:46, Trigon wrote:
> >> On 01/09/2021 02:43, Aspen via agora-business wrote:
> >>> I grant the Library the following promise:
> >>>
> >>> {
> >>> Cashing condition: if this promise is cached, by the end of the
> >>> message in
> >>> which this promise is cashed, the bearer will have transferred 5
> >>> blot-b-gones to me.
> >>>
> >>> I transfer two justice cards to the bearer.
> >>> }
> >>>
> >>> -Aspen
> >>>
> >>
> >> I cash this promise.
> >>
> >> I pay a set of four Justice Cards to create in my possession a set of
> >> ten Blot-B-Gones.
> >>
> >> I transfer five Blot-B-Gones to Aspen and thank em for doing business
> >> with me.
> >>
> >
> > Ineffective. I did not have the promise, the library did.
> >
> > I transfer the quoted promise from the library to myself, then I cash
> > that promise, pay a set of 4jc to get 10bg, and transfer 5bg to Aspen.
> >
>
> And while I'm here, I expunge one blot from myself by destroying a
> blot-b-gone.


>
> --
> Trigon


Flagging for the Referee.

Also, I expunge two blots from myself, destroying a blot-b-gone for each.

-Aspen

Re: BUS: CFJ 3925 Assigned to ais523 [@Arbitor]

[ais523 via agora-business]

On Wed, 2021-09-01 at 11:46 +1000, Telna via agora-business wrote:
> The below CFJ is 3925. I assign it to ais523.
> 
> =
> 
> If a Mad Scientist announces a random selection for a rule for a 
> specified future week, and the ruleset doesn't change, e both can,
> and needs to, use that pick to fulfill eir weekly duties.
> 
> Called by G.: Tue Aug 31 2021 14:43:34
> 
> =

I judge CFJ 3925 FALSE.

Evidence:
{{{
Rule 2505/1 (Power=1)
Random Choices

  When a Rule specifies that a random choice be made, then the
  choice shall be made using whatever probability distribution among
  the possible outcomes the Rule specifies, defaulting to a uniform
  probability distribution.
  
  The choice can be made using any physical or computational process
  whose probability distribution among the possible outcomes is
  reasonably close to that required by the Rules, and for which the
  final choice is not trivially predictable by the selecting person
  in advance. The selecting person SHOULD make the selection method
  public, and SHOULD use a method for which the final probability
  distribution can be readily confirmed.
}}}

Arguments:
{{{
The first issue is to establish the time at which the random selection
would/could be performed, under these assumptions. There are two strong
points of evidence that imply that in order for this sort of random
selection to work at all, it would need to be considered to have been
performed at the time of the weekly duty (as opposed to the time of the
dice roll or equivalent): a) its validity cannot be determined too far
in advance, due to the possibility that the ruleset changes; and b)
rule 2143 requires weekly duties to be performed "each week", implying
that performing them in advance doesn't fulfil the requirement to
perform them.

However, that would imply that the Mad Scientist would have information
about what the result will be, in advance of the time at which the
action was considered to be performed. This would violate the
requirement in rule 2505 (which is a hard requirement, not a SHOULD)
that the final choice is not trivially predictable by the selecting
person in advance.

In other words, there's no timing with which the rules would be
satisfied that this sort of randomization process is actually random;
they require the randomization to not "officially" occur until the week
of the duties, but they also require the Mad Scientist to not know what
the result will be in advance. So rolling the dice prior to the week in
question is not, by the rules, treated as a valid method of
randomization.
}}}

-- 
ais523

Re: BUS: Trading with Trigon [attn. Treasuror]

[Trigon via agora-business]

On 01/09/2021 03:55, Trigon wrote:

On 01/09/2021 02:46, Trigon wrote:

On 01/09/2021 02:43, Aspen via agora-business wrote:

I grant the Library the following promise:

{
Cashing condition: if this promise is cached, by the end of the 
message in

which this promise is cashed, the bearer will have transferred 5
blot-b-gones to me.

I transfer two justice cards to the bearer.
}

-Aspen



I cash this promise.

I pay a set of four Justice Cards to create in my possession a set of 
ten Blot-B-Gones.


I transfer five Blot-B-Gones to Aspen and thank em for doing business 
with me.




Ineffective. I did not have the promise, the library did.

I transfer the quoted promise from the library to myself, then I cash 
that promise, pay a set of 4jc to get 10bg, and transfer 5bg to Aspen.




And while I'm here, I expunge one blot from myself by destroying a 
blot-b-gone.


--
Trigon

 ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST





I’m always happy to become a party to contracts.
I LOVE SPAGHETTI
transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

Re: BUS: Trading with Trigon [attn. Treasuror]

[Trigon via agora-business]

On 01/09/2021 02:46, Trigon wrote:

On 01/09/2021 02:43, Aspen via agora-business wrote:

I grant the Library the following promise:

{
Cashing condition: if this promise is cached, by the end of the 
message in

which this promise is cashed, the bearer will have transferred 5
blot-b-gones to me.

I transfer two justice cards to the bearer.
}

-Aspen



I cash this promise.

I pay a set of four Justice Cards to create in my possession a set of 
ten Blot-B-Gones.


I transfer five Blot-B-Gones to Aspen and thank em for doing business 
with me.




Ineffective. I did not have the promise, the library did.

I transfer the quoted promise from the library to myself, then I cash 
that promise, pay a set of 4jc to get 10bg, and transfer 5bg to Aspen.


--
Trigon

 ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST





I’m always happy to become a party to contracts.
I LOVE SPAGHETTI
transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

Re: BUS: Trading with Trigon [attn. Treasuror]

[Trigon via agora-business]

On 01/09/2021 02:43, Aspen via agora-business wrote:

I grant the Library the following promise:

{
Cashing condition: if this promise is cached, by the end of the message in
which this promise is cashed, the bearer will have transferred 5
blot-b-gones to me.

I transfer two justice cards to the bearer.
}

-Aspen



I cash this promise.

I pay a set of four Justice Cards to create in my possession a set of 
ten Blot-B-Gones.


I transfer five Blot-B-Gones to Aspen and thank em for doing business 
with me.


--
Trigon

 ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST





I’m always happy to become a party to contracts.
I LOVE SPAGHETTI
transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

BUS: Trading with Trigon [attn. Treasuror]

[Aspen via agora-business]

I grant the Library the following promise:

{
Cashing condition: if this promise is cached, by the end of the message in
which this promise is cashed, the bearer will have transferred 5
blot-b-gones to me.

I transfer two justice cards to the bearer.
}

-Aspen

Re: BUS: The Arbitor is BORED. (@Treasuror)

[Telna via agora-business]

On 2021-07-12 13:15, Telna via agora-business wrote:
I pledge to transfer a total of 840 coins split between the player or 
players who do something before the end of July 2021 that is interesting 
enough to have another player call a non-trivial CFJ about it, provided 
at least one such player exists at the end of August 2021.
(Terms and Conditions: Which CFJs qualify as "non-trivial" will be 
decided at the Arbitor's sole discretion. Please don't try to get me in 
trouble for offering free stuff.)


Resolving the above:
I transfer 630 coins to D. Wet for proposing to create a rule, resulting 
in CFJ 3922. I think we can all agree this has led to an interesting 
time for the judiciary of Agora!
I transfer 210 coins to Trigon for attempting to call a CFJ on 13 Jul 
2021 on 12 Jul 2021, resulting in CFJs 3919 and 3920. Sorry you got 
overshadowed!

BUS: CFJ 3925 Assigned to ais523

[Telna via agora-business]

The below CFJ is 3925. I assign it to ais523.

=

If a Mad Scientist announces a random selection for a rule for a 
specified future week, and the ruleset doesn't change, e both can, and 
needs to, use that pick to fulfill eir weekly duties.


Called by G.: Tue Aug 31 2021 14:43:34

=

On 2021-09-01 00:42, Kerim Aydin via agora-business wrote:


CFJ: If a Mad Scientist announces a random selection for a rule for a
specified future week, and the ruleset doesn't change, e both can, and
needs to, use that pick to fulfill eir weekly duties.

Arguments:

For the "can" part of the cfj, Rule 2655 reads in part:

   The Mad Engineer's weekly duties include the performance of the
   following tasks, in order:

   a) Randomly select exactly one rule.

Now, we've generally accepted that random picks can be separate from
action emails (e.g. use a dice server to get a confirmably random number,
in a follow-up email perform the action that uses that number).  But what
if there's weeks of ahead-warning for what the pick will be?  Are random
picks well in advance on the dependent action still random, once published?

The counterargument is that "weekly duties...randomly select" means that
the random result can't be known to anyone (must still be random) until
you get to the appropriate week.

For the "needs to" part:

If a draw is published, and later taken back (assuming the ruleset hasn't
changed etc.), then the full selection process was biased in terms of
discarding the previous pick, and wasn't determined uniformly.

BUS: Re: OFF: [Treasuror] Buoyancy Notification: August 2021

[Jason Cobb via agora-business]

On 8/31/21 21:26, Trigon via agora-official wrote:
> Apologies for the lateness. Google blocked the Treasuror's Inflation-
> Generating Observation Network (TRIGON) from sending the Buoyancy
> Notification for this Month. In lieu of that, I am here to deliver the
> news personally.
>
> The Total Buoyancy has just been changed to:
>
> => 64546
>
> This makes the Unit of Flotation:
>
> => 25
>
> Please plan accordingly.


I object.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Assessor, Rulekeepor, S​tonemason

Re: (@trigon) Re: OFF: Re: BUS: [unofficial] Victory Card auction

[Trigon via agora-business]

On 31/08/2021 14:49, Kerim Aydin via agora-business wrote:


On 8/25/2021 10:20 AM, Trigon via agora-business wrote:

On 25/08/2021 11:18, Cuddle Beam via agora-business wrote:

I bid 1000 coins on that Victory Card and then I bid 1 Cuddlebeam (player).


I bid 1600 coins and then I bid one.



Trigon won this auction. [Sorry to be boring: ignoring the non-coin bids]

I create the following promise and transfer it to Trigon:
===
   Conditions: This promise is less than 2 days old, and Trigon transferred
   1600 coins to G. in the cashing message.

   I transfer one Victory Card to Trigon.
==



I transfer 1600 coins to G. and cash the quoted promise.

--
Trigon

 ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST





I’m always happy to become a party to contracts.
I LOVE SPAGHETTI
transfer Jason one coin
nch was here
I hereby
don't... trust... the dragon...
don't... trust... the dragon...
Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this

BUS: Fwd: Judiciary Four Thousand (contest)

[Kerim Aydin via agora-business]

We're approaching CFJ 3925 (close-off of guesses for the below) so doing a
bump of this.  You can see some previous guesses in the replies to the
below message.


 Forwarded Message 
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:20:36 -0800
To: agora-business@agoranomic.org
From: Kerim Aydin 
Subject: Judiciary Four Thousand (contest)



[In honor of CFJ 3900, an unofficial contest]

JUDICIARY FOUR THOUSAND

When will CFJ 4000 be called?

- Submit your guess to me (date/time in UTC, submit public or private).

- Can update your guess, your latest entry is what counts.

- Guesses close one week after CFJ 3925 is assigned.

- Prize: something, I dunno what assets or game stuff will exist then.

- My guess to beat:  exactly 1 year from the stamp of this message.

- Caveats: calling excess CFJs or other case manipulations is Bad Form (on
the Arbitor's part, so is manipulating CFJ IDs).  Nothing in this email
shall be constituted as a contract, promise, pledge, or any other type
of binding Agoran agreement.

BUS: @Adop withdrawal

[Sarah S. via agora-business]

I withdraw from the mad scientist election
-- 
--
R. Lee

(@trigon) Re: OFF: Re: BUS: [unofficial] Victory Card auction

[Kerim Aydin via agora-business]

On 8/25/2021 10:20 AM, Trigon via agora-business wrote:
> On 25/08/2021 11:18, Cuddle Beam via agora-business wrote:
>> I bid 1000 coins on that Victory Card and then I bid 1 Cuddlebeam (player).
> 
> I bid 1600 coins and then I bid one.
> 

Trigon won this auction. [Sorry to be boring: ignoring the non-coin bids]

I create the following promise and transfer it to Trigon:
===
  Conditions: This promise is less than 2 days old, and Trigon transferred
  1600 coins to G. in the cashing message.

  I transfer one Victory Card to Trigon.
==

BUS: [cfj] pre-destiny

[Kerim Aydin via agora-business]

CFJ: If a Mad Scientist announces a random selection for a rule for a
specified future week, and the ruleset doesn't change, e both can, and
needs to, use that pick to fulfill eir weekly duties.

Arguments:

For the "can" part of the cfj, Rule 2655 reads in part:

  The Mad Engineer's weekly duties include the performance of the
  following tasks, in order:

  a) Randomly select exactly one rule.

Now, we've generally accepted that random picks can be separate from
action emails (e.g. use a dice server to get a confirmably random number,
in a follow-up email perform the action that uses that number).  But what
if there's weeks of ahead-warning for what the pick will be?  Are random
picks well in advance on the dependent action still random, once published?

The counterargument is that "weekly duties...randomly select" means that
the random result can't be known to anyone (must still be random) until
you get to the appropriate week.

For the "needs to" part:

If a draw is published, and later taken back (assuming the ruleset hasn't
changed etc.), then the full selection process was biased in terms of
discarding the previous pick, and wasn't determined uniformly.

BUS: (@ADoP) also nomination

[Kerim Aydin via agora-business]

I nominate myself for Mad Scientist.

Speech: I'd like to do this collaboratively i.e. announce the rule pick in
advance and take suggestions.  (while discord makes that easy, this week's
was just for testing so will find a way that's email-inclusive too).  Also
I'm more keen on the collaborative method than being the one to run it
necessarily, so if other candidates have collaborative ideas to share I
might vote for that?