Re: @Arbitor BUS: I wish to register
On 8/8/20 9:32 PM, shelvacu via agora-business wrote:
> On 8/8/20 5:37 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:
>> On 8/8/20 8:24 PM, shelvacu via agora-business wrote:
>>> On 8/8/20 8:07 AM, Falsifian via agora-business wrote:
On 2020-08-08 15:06, Falsifian via agora-business wrote:
> On 2020-08-08 06:45, shelvacu via agora-business wrote:
>> I wish to register to become a player. If my registration is
>> successful,
>> I cause myself to receive one Welcome Package and announce that it
>> is my
>> Agoran Birthday! How exciting.
> Welcome!
>
> I hereby grant you 3 coins. (Only works if it's actually your birthday.)
>
> I'm not sure about the birthday, though. R2585 says
>
> It is considered to be a player's Agoran Birthday on the
> anniversary of the day e first registered.
>
> and after quickly checking a few definitions of anniversary, most of
> them seem to say something about "previous year". E.g. Wikipedia: "An
> anniversary is the date on which an event took place or an
> institution was founded in a previous year, ...".
>
> I tried a birthday scam when I first registered too. I wasn't sure
> about the 0-year anniversary, so I tried something different:
>
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2019-February/04.html
CFJ: It is Shelvacu's birthday.
Argument for FALSE: see above ("I'm not sure about the birthday"
through "previous year, ...").
>>> Argument for TRUE:
>>>
>>> 1. The definition of "anniversary" does not consistently include
>>> "previous year", for example https://www.yourdictionary.com/anniversary
>>> says that an anniversary "... is a date on which something important
>>> happens that is noted in some way each year thereafter". I plan on
>>> noting my Agoran Birthday in some way each year thereafter and such is
>>> encouraged by law, thus that day is an anniversary. Even Wikipedia's
>>> definition might be interpreted as "An anniversary is the date on which
>>> {an event took place} or {an institution was founded in a previous year}"
>> I'll take Wikipedia's definition of "the date on which an event took
>> place ... in a previous year". The event certainly took place today
>> (August 8, 2020), but today is not in a previous year. Next year (and in
>> all future years), however, August 8, 2020, would be in a previous year
>> and thus count as an anniversary.
>>
>>
>>> 2. Even if that Wikipedia definition or some similar definition is
>>> accepted, it specifically says that an anniversary is *the date*, not a
>>> sequence of recurring dates. Thus the "anniversary of the day e first
>>> registered" must refer to (in this case) August 8th, and does *not*
>>> refer to specifically August 8th, 2020 or any date inclusive of a year
>>> thereafter. It only refers to August 8th. Thus, if I was to substitute
>>> the specifics of this case into the statute, it would be: "It is
>>> considered to be Shelvacu's Agoran Birthday on August 8th. ..."
>> Not necessarily. I agree that there is an infinite set of dates that are
>> anniversaries of today, but I don't agree that today is in that set.
> I did not make that point. I say that, as used in the statute,
> anniversary is a singular referring to a single date not inclusive of
> any year.
It looks like I misread your email. My apologies.
>> Wikipedia's phrasing is that it must have taken place "in a previous
>> year". The set would include all future August 8s, since August 8, 2020,
>> would be in a previous year at that time.
>>
>> Additionally, "anniversary" is not a term of art, so it must be taken to
>> have its natural language meaning. I would argue that legally arguing
>> about the precise phrasing of a definition given in certain sources goes
>> against the spirit of the rule by effectively turning any natural
>> language term into a term of art whose definition just so happens to be
>> defined by a few external sources. This also goes against the spirit of
>> what dictionaries are - dictionaries are inherently descriptive, rather
>> than prescriptive, so while they can be used to guide the interpretation
>> of a term, they should be subservient to collective understanding.
>>
>> "Anniversary", in its commonly understood meaning, does not include the
>> date on which the celebrated event occurs, so that is the standard we
>> should use.
> "Anniversary" can refer to both a date, and to a celebration/event based
> on that date. While most sources would seem to say that the celebrations
> are usually held on years after some point, the date itself is just a
> date with no year. To say "my anniversary is August 8th" sounds fine,
> compared to "my Agoran registration anniversary is August 8th, 2021 and
> every year thereafter".
>
> Importantly, the statute is defining a permissible action based on the
> anniversary (the date).
Hmm... I buy this argument more now.
>
Re: @Arbitor BUS: I wish to register
On 8/8/20 11:07 AM, Falsifian via agora-business wrote:
> On 2020-08-08 15:06, Falsifian via agora-business wrote:
>> On 2020-08-08 06:45, shelvacu via agora-business wrote:
>>> I wish to register to become a player. If my registration is successful,
>>> I cause myself to receive one Welcome Package and announce that it is my
>>> Agoran Birthday! How exciting.
>> Welcome!
>>
>> I hereby grant you 3 coins. (Only works if it's actually your birthday.)
>>
>> I'm not sure about the birthday, though. R2585 says
>>
>> It is considered to be a player's Agoran Birthday on the
>> anniversary of the day e first registered.
>>
>> and after quickly checking a few definitions of anniversary, most of
>> them seem to say something about "previous year". E.g. Wikipedia: "An
>> anniversary is the date on which an event took place or an institution
>> was founded in a previous year, ...".
>>
>> I tried a birthday scam when I first registered too. I wasn't sure about
>> the 0-year anniversary, so I tried something different:
>>
>> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2019-February/04.html
>>
> CFJ: It is Shelvacu's birthday.
>
> Argument for FALSE: see above ("I'm not sure about the birthday" through
> "previous year, ...").
>
I disfavor this case.
--
Jason Cobb
Re: @Arbitor BUS: I wish to register
One doesn’t celebrate one’s **first** wedding anniversary on the day of one’s wedding, therefore the day of one’s wedding cannot be a wedding anniversary because it would be the first. > On Aug 8, 2020, at 21:32, shelvacu via agora-business > wrote: >
Re: @Arbitor BUS: I wish to register
On 8/8/20 5:37 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:
> On 8/8/20 8:24 PM, shelvacu via agora-business wrote:
>> On 8/8/20 8:07 AM, Falsifian via agora-business wrote:
>>> On 2020-08-08 15:06, Falsifian via agora-business wrote:
On 2020-08-08 06:45, shelvacu via agora-business wrote:
> I wish to register to become a player. If my registration is
> successful,
> I cause myself to receive one Welcome Package and announce that it
> is my
> Agoran Birthday! How exciting.
Welcome!
I hereby grant you 3 coins. (Only works if it's actually your birthday.)
I'm not sure about the birthday, though. R2585 says
It is considered to be a player's Agoran Birthday on the
anniversary of the day e first registered.
and after quickly checking a few definitions of anniversary, most of
them seem to say something about "previous year". E.g. Wikipedia: "An
anniversary is the date on which an event took place or an
institution was founded in a previous year, ...".
I tried a birthday scam when I first registered too. I wasn't sure
about the 0-year anniversary, so I tried something different:
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2019-February/04.html
>>> CFJ: It is Shelvacu's birthday.
>>>
>>> Argument for FALSE: see above ("I'm not sure about the birthday"
>>> through "previous year, ...").
>>>
>> Argument for TRUE:
>>
>> 1. The definition of "anniversary" does not consistently include
>> "previous year", for example https://www.yourdictionary.com/anniversary
>> says that an anniversary "... is a date on which something important
>> happens that is noted in some way each year thereafter". I plan on
>> noting my Agoran Birthday in some way each year thereafter and such is
>> encouraged by law, thus that day is an anniversary. Even Wikipedia's
>> definition might be interpreted as "An anniversary is the date on which
>> {an event took place} or {an institution was founded in a previous year}"
>
> I'll take Wikipedia's definition of "the date on which an event took
> place ... in a previous year". The event certainly took place today
> (August 8, 2020), but today is not in a previous year. Next year (and in
> all future years), however, August 8, 2020, would be in a previous year
> and thus count as an anniversary.
>
>
>> 2. Even if that Wikipedia definition or some similar definition is
>> accepted, it specifically says that an anniversary is *the date*, not a
>> sequence of recurring dates. Thus the "anniversary of the day e first
>> registered" must refer to (in this case) August 8th, and does *not*
>> refer to specifically August 8th, 2020 or any date inclusive of a year
>> thereafter. It only refers to August 8th. Thus, if I was to substitute
>> the specifics of this case into the statute, it would be: "It is
>> considered to be Shelvacu's Agoran Birthday on August 8th. ..."
>
> Not necessarily. I agree that there is an infinite set of dates that are
> anniversaries of today, but I don't agree that today is in that set.
I did not make that point. I say that, as used in the statute,
anniversary is a singular referring to a single date not inclusive of
any year.
> Wikipedia's phrasing is that it must have taken place "in a previous
> year". The set would include all future August 8s, since August 8, 2020,
> would be in a previous year at that time.
>
> Additionally, "anniversary" is not a term of art, so it must be taken to
> have its natural language meaning. I would argue that legally arguing
> about the precise phrasing of a definition given in certain sources goes
> against the spirit of the rule by effectively turning any natural
> language term into a term of art whose definition just so happens to be
> defined by a few external sources. This also goes against the spirit of
> what dictionaries are - dictionaries are inherently descriptive, rather
> than prescriptive, so while they can be used to guide the interpretation
> of a term, they should be subservient to collective understanding.
>
> "Anniversary", in its commonly understood meaning, does not include the
> date on which the celebrated event occurs, so that is the standard we
> should use.
"Anniversary" can refer to both a date, and to a celebration/event based
on that date. While most sources would seem to say that the celebrations
are usually held on years after some point, the date itself is just a
date with no year. To say "my anniversary is August 8th" sounds fine,
compared to "my Agoran registration anniversary is August 8th, 2021 and
every year thereafter".
Importantly, the statute is defining a permissible action based on the
anniversary (the date).
I do not use dictionaries as a replacement for commonly understood
meaning, I use them as a guide towards what the commonly understood
meaning is. Descriptivism is exactly what I'm after, to ascertain the
commonly understood meaning.
You seem to
Re: @Arbitor BUS: I wish to register
On 8/8/20 8:24 PM, shelvacu via agora-business wrote:
> On 8/8/20 8:07 AM, Falsifian via agora-business wrote:
>> On 2020-08-08 15:06, Falsifian via agora-business wrote:
>>> On 2020-08-08 06:45, shelvacu via agora-business wrote:
I wish to register to become a player. If my registration is
successful,
I cause myself to receive one Welcome Package and announce that it
is my
Agoran Birthday! How exciting.
>>> Welcome!
>>>
>>> I hereby grant you 3 coins. (Only works if it's actually your birthday.)
>>>
>>> I'm not sure about the birthday, though. R2585 says
>>>
>>> It is considered to be a player's Agoran Birthday on the
>>> anniversary of the day e first registered.
>>>
>>> and after quickly checking a few definitions of anniversary, most of
>>> them seem to say something about "previous year". E.g. Wikipedia: "An
>>> anniversary is the date on which an event took place or an
>>> institution was founded in a previous year, ...".
>>>
>>> I tried a birthday scam when I first registered too. I wasn't sure
>>> about the 0-year anniversary, so I tried something different:
>>>
>>> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2019-February/04.html
>>
>> CFJ: It is Shelvacu's birthday.
>>
>> Argument for FALSE: see above ("I'm not sure about the birthday"
>> through "previous year, ...").
>>
> Argument for TRUE:
>
> 1. The definition of "anniversary" does not consistently include
> "previous year", for example https://www.yourdictionary.com/anniversary
> says that an anniversary "... is a date on which something important
> happens that is noted in some way each year thereafter". I plan on
> noting my Agoran Birthday in some way each year thereafter and such is
> encouraged by law, thus that day is an anniversary. Even Wikipedia's
> definition might be interpreted as "An anniversary is the date on which
> {an event took place} or {an institution was founded in a previous year}"
I'll take Wikipedia's definition of "the date on which an event took
place ... in a previous year". The event certainly took place today
(August 8, 2020), but today is not in a previous year. Next year (and in
all future years), however, August 8, 2020, would be in a previous year
and thus count as an anniversary.
>
> 2. Even if that Wikipedia definition or some similar definition is
> accepted, it specifically says that an anniversary is *the date*, not a
> sequence of recurring dates. Thus the "anniversary of the day e first
> registered" must refer to (in this case) August 8th, and does *not*
> refer to specifically August 8th, 2020 or any date inclusive of a year
> thereafter. It only refers to August 8th. Thus, if I was to substitute
> the specifics of this case into the statute, it would be: "It is
> considered to be Shelvacu's Agoran Birthday on August 8th. ..."
Not necessarily. I agree that there is an infinite set of dates that are
anniversaries of today, but I don't agree that today is in that set.
Wikipedia's phrasing is that it must have taken place "in a previous
year". The set would include all future August 8s, since August 8, 2020,
would be in a previous year at that time.
Additionally, "anniversary" is not a term of art, so it must be taken to
have its natural language meaning. I would argue that legally arguing
about the precise phrasing of a definition given in certain sources goes
against the spirit of the rule by effectively turning any natural
language term into a term of art whose definition just so happens to be
defined by a few external sources. This also goes against the spirit of
what dictionaries are - dictionaries are inherently descriptive, rather
than prescriptive, so while they can be used to guide the interpretation
of a term, they should be subservient to collective understanding.
"Anniversary", in its commonly understood meaning, does not include the
date on which the celebrated event occurs, so that is the standard we
should use.
>
> 3. If the interpretation in point 2 is not accepted, then players can
> only have one birthday, as statute specifically refers to *THE*
> anniversary, implying there is only one. This is obviously ridiculous,
> and as such point 2 must be accepted.
>
This is not permissible legal reasoning under Rule 217:
> Definitions and prescriptions in the rules are only to be applied
> using direct, forward reasoning; in particular, an absurdity that
> can be concluded from the assumption that a statement about
> rule-defined concepts is false does not constitute proof that it
> is true.
--
Jason Cobb
Re: @Arbitor BUS: I wish to register
On 8/8/20 8:07 AM, Falsifian via agora-business wrote:
> On 2020-08-08 15:06, Falsifian via agora-business wrote:
>> On 2020-08-08 06:45, shelvacu via agora-business wrote:
>>> I wish to register to become a player. If my registration is
>>> successful,
>>> I cause myself to receive one Welcome Package and announce that it
>>> is my
>>> Agoran Birthday! How exciting.
>>
>> Welcome!
>>
>> I hereby grant you 3 coins. (Only works if it's actually your birthday.)
>>
>> I'm not sure about the birthday, though. R2585 says
>>
>> It is considered to be a player's Agoran Birthday on the
>> anniversary of the day e first registered.
>>
>> and after quickly checking a few definitions of anniversary, most of
>> them seem to say something about "previous year". E.g. Wikipedia: "An
>> anniversary is the date on which an event took place or an
>> institution was founded in a previous year, ...".
>>
>> I tried a birthday scam when I first registered too. I wasn't sure
>> about the 0-year anniversary, so I tried something different:
>>
>> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2019-February/04.html
>
>
> CFJ: It is Shelvacu's birthday.
>
> Argument for FALSE: see above ("I'm not sure about the birthday"
> through "previous year, ...").
>
Argument for TRUE:
1. The definition of "anniversary" does not consistently include
"previous year", for example https://www.yourdictionary.com/anniversary
says that an anniversary "... is a date on which something important
happens that is noted in some way each year thereafter". I plan on
noting my Agoran Birthday in some way each year thereafter and such is
encouraged by law, thus that day is an anniversary. Even Wikipedia's
definition might be interpreted as "An anniversary is the date on which
{an event took place} or {an institution was founded in a previous year}"
2. Even if that Wikipedia definition or some similar definition is
accepted, it specifically says that an anniversary is *the date*, not a
sequence of recurring dates. Thus the "anniversary of the day e first
registered" must refer to (in this case) August 8th, and does *not*
refer to specifically August 8th, 2020 or any date inclusive of a year
thereafter. It only refers to August 8th. Thus, if I was to substitute
the specifics of this case into the statute, it would be: "It is
considered to be Shelvacu's Agoran Birthday on August 8th. ..."
3. If the interpretation in point 2 is not accepted, then players can
only have one birthday, as statute specifically refers to *THE*
anniversary, implying there is only one. This is obviously ridiculous,
and as such point 2 must be accepted.
@Arbitor BUS: I wish to register
On 2020-08-08 15:06, Falsifian via agora-business wrote:
On 2020-08-08 06:45, shelvacu via agora-business wrote:
I wish to register to become a player. If my registration is successful,
I cause myself to receive one Welcome Package and announce that it is my
Agoran Birthday! How exciting.
Welcome!
I hereby grant you 3 coins. (Only works if it's actually your birthday.)
I'm not sure about the birthday, though. R2585 says
It is considered to be a player's Agoran Birthday on the
anniversary of the day e first registered.
and after quickly checking a few definitions of anniversary, most of
them seem to say something about "previous year". E.g. Wikipedia: "An
anniversary is the date on which an event took place or an institution
was founded in a previous year, ...".
I tried a birthday scam when I first registered too. I wasn't sure about
the 0-year anniversary, so I tried something different:
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2019-February/04.html
CFJ: It is Shelvacu's birthday.
Argument for FALSE: see above ("I'm not sure about the birthday" through
"previous year, ...").
--
Falsifian
