Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Space Rebel Uprising
I'll be a good Agoran if such a proposal makes it through. But I'm also understanding of the reason this limit exists, even if I think 30 days is a bit much. On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 3:16 PM ais...@alumni.bham.ac.uk < ais...@alumni.bham.ac.uk> wrote: > On Thu, 2019-07-25 at 07:59 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > idk, as much as I don't want nch to sit out for 30 days, we've had people > > deregister themselves to do a scam and in the past said "hey well that's > the > > price of scamming" (if it was accidental for non-scammy reasons we try to > > get em back definitely). Just a discussion not absolutely set to vote > > against this. -G. > > The Registrar's report has a "deregistered emself by mistake" entry for > a reason :-D > > This is a bit different, it's "deregistered emself intentionally > without realising the consequences". I'm not totally against giving > people a pass for that, even if it was part of a scam, but with a > caveat that they mustn't have gained any benefit from the scam attempt > (and only once per person, obviously). > > -- > ais523 > >
DIS: Re: BUS: [proposal] Double Jeopardy Prevention Act
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 at 18:38, Jason Cobb wrote: > Title: Double Jeopardy Prevention Act Is this a serious problem? If the current referee really wants to levy a fine for something a previous referee found to be Shenanigans, the accused is still protected by items (2) and (3). Those are likely to involve CFJs, which tend to be sticky as far as I can tell, so the jeopardy ends there. I'm leaning mildly against this as adding unnecessary text, and also making it slightly easier for someone to escape punishment if they control the referee (though only slightly; the ref can already make a fine forgivable). -- - Falsifian
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Space Rebel Uprising
On Thu, 2019-07-25 at 07:59 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote: > idk, as much as I don't want nch to sit out for 30 days, we've had people > deregister themselves to do a scam and in the past said "hey well that's the > price of scamming" (if it was accidental for non-scammy reasons we try to > get em back definitely). Just a discussion not absolutely set to vote > against this. -G. The Registrar's report has a "deregistered emself by mistake" entry for a reason :-D This is a bit different, it's "deregistered emself intentionally without realising the consequences". I'm not totally against giving people a pass for that, even if it was part of a scam, but with a caveat that they mustn't have gained any benefit from the scam attempt (and only once per person, obviously). -- ais523
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Space Rebel Uprising
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 at 15:00, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> On 7/25/2019 7:38 AM, James Cook wrote:
> > Title: Fresh start
> > Co-authors: (empty list)
> > Adoption index: 3.1
> > Text: {
> > Register nch.
> > nch receives a Welcome Package.
> > Destroy all of nch's Coins.
> > }
>
> idk, as much as I don't want nch to sit out for 30 days, we've had people
> deregister themselves to do a scam and in the past said "hey well that's the
> price of scamming" (if it was accidental for non-scammy reasons we try to
> get em back definitely). Just a discussion not absolutely set to vote
> against this. -G.
If another person does it in the near future I won't feel so
forgiving; I don't want to make it a pattern, and anyway people who
didn't know that rule should know it now.
In this case, as Registrar, I encourage others to vote FOR bringing
nch back. I expect keeping active and creative players around to be
good for the health and vitality of Agora.
--
- Falsifian
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Space Rebel Uprising
Ah, that makes sense, sorry. Jason Cobb On 7/25/19 2:22 PM, James Cook wrote: On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 at 16:07, Jason Cobb wrote: Also, if you want em to have the welcome package, you might not want to destroy all of eir coins after giving it to em. Jason Cobb The purpose was to effectively deny em a welcome package.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Space Rebel Uprising
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 at 16:07, Jason Cobb wrote: > Also, if you want em to have the welcome package, you might not want to > destroy all of eir coins after giving it to em. > > Jason Cobb The purpose was to effectively deny em a welcome package.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Tournament] Proposed Regulations
I’m not particularly eager to restart the objection period over this minor
a mistake, especially given how late the tournament already is. I intend to
invoke Regulation 13 in the manner put forward by G.
-Aris
On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 9:32 AM Kerim Aydin wrote:
> Just mentioning this for everyone who's not played a Tournament before!
>
> Not commenting on your specifics, but note Regulation 13. We
> frequently use such a clause to let the tournament runner solve common
> sense issues like this with an interpretive decision that has a high
> bar ("arbitrary and capricious disregard") for being overturned by
> CFJ. So interpretive standards here are less niggly then standard
> Agoran legal interpretations. Not to say things don't break, but the
> decisions in tournaments with such a clause go much more by the intent
> and playability than is usual for us.
>
> -G.
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 9:20 AM Jason Cobb wrote:
> >
> > Just realized this: the fantasy rule that a player publishes to join
> > doesn't take effect, since "only contestants can publish valid fantasy
> > rules".
> >
> > This may be intentional, but I don't know.
> >
> > Jason Cobb
> >
> > On 7/24/19 6:57 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:
> > > I intend, Without 3 Objections, to enact the following as the
> > > regulations for this year's Birthday Tournament.
> > >
> > > 0. Aris CANNOT win this Tournament or become a Contestant. Aris is the
> > >Judge (gamemaster) of this game.
> > >
> > > 1. For 7 days after the contest begins, any person can enter the
> > >contest (becoming a Contestant) by publishing a body of text
> > >clearly intended to be a Fantasy Rule, on eir own behalf.
> > >When a contestant is eliminated (ceases being a contestant),
> > >e cannot re-enter.
> > >
> > > 2. After 7 days have passed since the contest began, no new
> > >contestants can join.
> > >
> > > 3. Only contestants can publish valid fantasy rules.
> > >
> > > 4. For a fantasy rule to be valid, it must be consistent with all
> > >previous valid fantasy rules.
> > >
> > > 5. When a contestant publishes an invalid fantasy rule, e receives
> > >a Strike. When a contestant receives eir 3rd strike, e is
> > >eliminated and ceases to be a contestant.
> > >
> > > 6. For a fantasy rule to be valid, it must be possible for any
> > >remaining contestant to publish a valid rule following it. A
> > >contestant or the judge can publicly challenge that a particular
> > >rule makes it impossible to continue. In that case, the
> > >publisher of that rule has 24 hours to send the judge (privately
> > >or publicly) a proposed valid rule that would work. If e does
> so,
> > >the challenger (if not the judge) receives a strike, otherwise
> > >the rule is invalid.
> > >
> > > 7. If, after a challenge as above, the judge finds that continuation
> > >from the contested rule is Nearly Impossible and not Completely
> > >Impossible, e can declare the rule invalid but the proposer
> does not
> > >receive a strike.
> > >
> > > 8. If a contestant would receive a strike for an invalid rule, but
> the rule is
> > >invalid solely due to a valid rule that was published by another
> > >contestant less than an hour before the invalid one was
> published,
> > >e does not receive a strike for that invalid rule.
> > >
> > > 9. After the first 9 days, the elimination period begins. During this
> > >period, a contestant is eliminated if 96 hours have passed
> since e
> > >last published a fantasy rule AND 48 hours have passed since any
> > >contestant last published a rule.
> > >
> > > 10. The judge shall declare whether each fantasy rule is valid or
> > >invalid, and will award between -3 and +3 Style Points to each
> valid
> > >rule, by announcement, based on the quality of the rule with
> respect
> > >to the theme.
> > >
> > > 11. The judge's final opinions are binding, although any person may
> > >publicly or privately appeal (to the judge) any judicial ruling
> e
> > >feels was made in error, and the judge may revise eir judgement.
> > >If the ruling was made more than 24 hours before the appeal,
> > >the judge may factor the extent to which the contestants have
> already
> > >relied on eir decision into eir resolution of the appeal.
> > >
> > > 12. When all contestants except one have been eliminated from the
> contest,
> > >the victors are (1) the last contestant remaining and (2) the
> person
> > >with the most style points. The judge shall then, with 2 days
> notice,
> > >announce them as winners, whereupon they win the tournament and
> the
> > >tournament is concluded.
> > >
> > > 13. The judge is the final arbitor on matters of this tournament, and
> eir
> > >decisions can overturned
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Tournament] Proposed Regulations
Just mentioning this for everyone who's not played a Tournament before!
Not commenting on your specifics, but note Regulation 13. We
frequently use such a clause to let the tournament runner solve common
sense issues like this with an interpretive decision that has a high
bar ("arbitrary and capricious disregard") for being overturned by
CFJ. So interpretive standards here are less niggly then standard
Agoran legal interpretations. Not to say things don't break, but the
decisions in tournaments with such a clause go much more by the intent
and playability than is usual for us.
-G.
On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 9:20 AM Jason Cobb wrote:
>
> Just realized this: the fantasy rule that a player publishes to join
> doesn't take effect, since "only contestants can publish valid fantasy
> rules".
>
> This may be intentional, but I don't know.
>
> Jason Cobb
>
> On 7/24/19 6:57 PM, Aris Merchant wrote:
> > I intend, Without 3 Objections, to enact the following as the
> > regulations for this year's Birthday Tournament.
> >
> > 0. Aris CANNOT win this Tournament or become a Contestant. Aris is the
> >Judge (gamemaster) of this game.
> >
> > 1. For 7 days after the contest begins, any person can enter the
> >contest (becoming a Contestant) by publishing a body of text
> >clearly intended to be a Fantasy Rule, on eir own behalf.
> >When a contestant is eliminated (ceases being a contestant),
> >e cannot re-enter.
> >
> > 2. After 7 days have passed since the contest began, no new
> >contestants can join.
> >
> > 3. Only contestants can publish valid fantasy rules.
> >
> > 4. For a fantasy rule to be valid, it must be consistent with all
> >previous valid fantasy rules.
> >
> > 5. When a contestant publishes an invalid fantasy rule, e receives
> >a Strike. When a contestant receives eir 3rd strike, e is
> >eliminated and ceases to be a contestant.
> >
> > 6. For a fantasy rule to be valid, it must be possible for any
> >remaining contestant to publish a valid rule following it. A
> >contestant or the judge can publicly challenge that a particular
> >rule makes it impossible to continue. In that case, the
> >publisher of that rule has 24 hours to send the judge (privately
> >or publicly) a proposed valid rule that would work. If e does so,
> >the challenger (if not the judge) receives a strike, otherwise
> >the rule is invalid.
> >
> > 7. If, after a challenge as above, the judge finds that continuation
> >from the contested rule is Nearly Impossible and not Completely
> >Impossible, e can declare the rule invalid but the proposer does not
> >receive a strike.
> >
> > 8. If a contestant would receive a strike for an invalid rule, but the
> > rule is
> >invalid solely due to a valid rule that was published by another
> >contestant less than an hour before the invalid one was published,
> >e does not receive a strike for that invalid rule.
> >
> > 9. After the first 9 days, the elimination period begins. During this
> >period, a contestant is eliminated if 96 hours have passed since e
> >last published a fantasy rule AND 48 hours have passed since any
> >contestant last published a rule.
> >
> > 10. The judge shall declare whether each fantasy rule is valid or
> >invalid, and will award between -3 and +3 Style Points to each valid
> >rule, by announcement, based on the quality of the rule with respect
> >to the theme.
> >
> > 11. The judge's final opinions are binding, although any person may
> >publicly or privately appeal (to the judge) any judicial ruling e
> >feels was made in error, and the judge may revise eir judgement.
> >If the ruling was made more than 24 hours before the appeal,
> >the judge may factor the extent to which the contestants have already
> >relied on eir decision into eir resolution of the appeal.
> >
> > 12. When all contestants except one have been eliminated from the contest,
> >the victors are (1) the last contestant remaining and (2) the person
> >with the most style points. The judge shall then, with 2 days notice,
> >announce them as winners, whereupon they win the tournament and the
> >tournament is concluded.
> >
> > 13. The judge is the final arbitor on matters of this tournament, and eir
> >decisions can overturned if and only if a CFJ finds eir decisions
> > were
> >made with arbitrary or capricious disregard for the terms of these
> >regulations. The judge shall adjudicate these regulations in an
> >equitable manner, with emphasis placed on the intent of the clauses
> >and the fair treatment of all parties.
> >
> > 14. The theme of the contest is the worship, in proper form, of
> >the Agoran Gods; the Appropriate Punishment of those
DIS: Re: BUS: [Tournament] Proposed Regulations
Just realized this: the fantasy rule that a player publishes to join doesn't take effect, since "only contestants can publish valid fantasy rules". This may be intentional, but I don't know. Jason Cobb On 7/24/19 6:57 PM, Aris Merchant wrote: I intend, Without 3 Objections, to enact the following as the regulations for this year's Birthday Tournament. 0. Aris CANNOT win this Tournament or become a Contestant. Aris is the Judge (gamemaster) of this game. 1. For 7 days after the contest begins, any person can enter the contest (becoming a Contestant) by publishing a body of text clearly intended to be a Fantasy Rule, on eir own behalf. When a contestant is eliminated (ceases being a contestant), e cannot re-enter. 2. After 7 days have passed since the contest began, no new contestants can join. 3. Only contestants can publish valid fantasy rules. 4. For a fantasy rule to be valid, it must be consistent with all previous valid fantasy rules. 5. When a contestant publishes an invalid fantasy rule, e receives a Strike. When a contestant receives eir 3rd strike, e is eliminated and ceases to be a contestant. 6. For a fantasy rule to be valid, it must be possible for any remaining contestant to publish a valid rule following it. A contestant or the judge can publicly challenge that a particular rule makes it impossible to continue. In that case, the publisher of that rule has 24 hours to send the judge (privately or publicly) a proposed valid rule that would work. If e does so, the challenger (if not the judge) receives a strike, otherwise the rule is invalid. 7. If, after a challenge as above, the judge finds that continuation from the contested rule is Nearly Impossible and not Completely Impossible, e can declare the rule invalid but the proposer does not receive a strike. 8. If a contestant would receive a strike for an invalid rule, but the rule is invalid solely due to a valid rule that was published by another contestant less than an hour before the invalid one was published, e does not receive a strike for that invalid rule. 9. After the first 9 days, the elimination period begins. During this period, a contestant is eliminated if 96 hours have passed since e last published a fantasy rule AND 48 hours have passed since any contestant last published a rule. 10. The judge shall declare whether each fantasy rule is valid or invalid, and will award between -3 and +3 Style Points to each valid rule, by announcement, based on the quality of the rule with respect to the theme. 11. The judge's final opinions are binding, although any person may publicly or privately appeal (to the judge) any judicial ruling e feels was made in error, and the judge may revise eir judgement. If the ruling was made more than 24 hours before the appeal, the judge may factor the extent to which the contestants have already relied on eir decision into eir resolution of the appeal. 12. When all contestants except one have been eliminated from the contest, the victors are (1) the last contestant remaining and (2) the person with the most style points. The judge shall then, with 2 days notice, announce them as winners, whereupon they win the tournament and the tournament is concluded. 13. The judge is the final arbitor on matters of this tournament, and eir decisions can overturned if and only if a CFJ finds eir decisions were made with arbitrary or capricious disregard for the terms of these regulations. The judge shall adjudicate these regulations in an equitable manner, with emphasis placed on the intent of the clauses and the fair treatment of all parties. 14. The theme of the contest is the worship, in proper form, of the Agoran Gods; the Appropriate Punishment of those Heretics and Blasphemers who show them disrespect; and the maintenance of their Rites and Rituals. The Judge SHOULD be referred to as "Eir Supreme Eminence, The Pontifex Maximus" for the purposes of the competition. Contestants SHOULD comply with the The Pontifex Maximus's reasonable directives.
DIS: Re: BUS: Space Rebel Uprising
Also, if you want em to have the welcome package, you might not want to
destroy all of eir coins after giving it to em.
Jason Cobb
On 7/25/19 10:38 AM, James Cook wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 at 14:33, James Cook wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 at 01:30, nch wrote:
Oops, oh well. Guess I'm sitting out for a month.
I submit a proposal as follows.
Title: Fresh start
Co-authors: (empty list)
Adoption index: 3.01
Text: {
Register nch.
nch receives a Welcome Package.
Destroy all of nch's Coins.
}
Oops, forgot about integer multiples of 0.1.
If I created a proposal with the above message, I withdraw it.
I submit a proposal as follows.
Title: Fresh start
Co-authors: (empty list)
Adoption index: 3.1
Text: {
Register nch.
nch receives a Welcome Package.
Destroy all of nch's Coins.
}
DIS: Re: BUS: Space Rebel Uprising
On 7/25/2019 7:59 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> On 7/25/2019 7:38 AM, James Cook wrote:
> > Title: Fresh start
> > Co-authors: (empty list)
> > Adoption index: 3.1
> > Text: {
> > Register nch.
> > nch receives a Welcome Package.
> > Destroy all of nch's Coins.
> > }
Just on a purely technical side - I assume nch will consent, but if e
doesn't not even AI-3.1 will work and might create a weird situation.
Here:
A person, by registering, agrees to abide by the Rules. The Rules
CANNOT otherwise bind a person to abide by any agreement without
that person's willful consent.
If the person is registered "by force" without consent, e never agrees to
abide by the rules. Being "bound to the rules" is a continuous state. We
might get the odd situation that someone is registered (by force of
proposal) but not "bound to abide" because they didn't consent.
Easy fix: wrap the whole thing in a conditional "if nch has publicly
consented to abide by the rules in clear reference to this proposal
(and not withdrawn consent) then..."
-G.
DIS: Re: BUS: Space Rebel Uprising
On 7/25/2019 7:38 AM, James Cook wrote:
> Title: Fresh start
> Co-authors: (empty list)
> Adoption index: 3.1
> Text: {
> Register nch.
> nch receives a Welcome Package.
> Destroy all of nch's Coins.
> }
idk, as much as I don't want nch to sit out for 30 days, we've had people
deregister themselves to do a scam and in the past said "hey well that's the
price of scamming" (if it was accidental for non-scammy reasons we try to
get em back definitely). Just a discussion not absolutely set to vote
against this. -G.
DIS: Re: BUS: Space Rebel Uprising
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 at 14:33, James Cook wrote:
> I submit a proposal as follows.
>
> Title: Fresh start
> Co-authors: (empty list)
> Adoption index: 3.01
> Text: {
> Register nch.
> nch receives a Welcome Package.
> Destroy all of nch's Coins.
> }
I believe the "Register nch." provision is unaffected by R869's
"CANNOT be registered for 30 days" because of the third list item in
R2140 (Power Controls Mutability). Am I understanding that right?
--
- Falsifian
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Contracts
On Wed, 24 Jul 2019 at 23:55, Rebecca wrote: > I retract that proposal and substitute this one. > > Title: No secret contracts > AI: 2.5 > Text: Destroy each contract the full text of which has not been posted in > public. If this destroyed Agora, put it back again the same as it was. > Nobody will be able to tell the difference. > Amend the rule "Contracts" by changing "Such an agreement is known as a > contract." to "When the full text of such an agreement is posted in public, > it is known as a contract" Rather than destroying contracts that haven't been posted publicly, which seems kind of messy, why not just legislate that they're not contracts? Your rule change might already do that, or maybe replacing "When the full text ... it is known as a contract" with "If the full text ... it is known as a contract" would do it? -- - Falsifian
