Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: [@ministor] lordy look at the time
On Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:01 PM ais523 via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On Sat, 2020-10-31 at 21:57 -0400, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > > On 10/31/20 9:52 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-business wrote: > > > Take 2, now with extra pointless retroactivity > > > > > > I issue the following rulebending form: > > > -- > > > The following document, dated 01-Nov-2020 01:38:25 UTC, is hereby > > > ratified: "G's Ministry Focus is Legacy. This document does not > > > purport > > > to be a report or otherwise imply the value of any other Ministry > > > Focus > > > switches." > > > -- > > > > CoE: the above excludes some non-default values (just to be safe). > > I'm not sure you can CoE a ratification attempt that isn't self- > ratification. (Is this safety against the document somehow being > interpreted as self-ratifying in addition to being ratified manually? > I'd expect the ratification to do the same thing regardless of the > mechanism that caused it to ratify.) > > -- > ais523 > Yes, that was exactly the intent (safety in case it was somehow also self-ratifying). >
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: [@ministor] lordy look at the time
On Sat, 2020-10-31 at 21:57 -0400, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > On 10/31/20 9:52 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-business wrote: > > Take 2, now with extra pointless retroactivity > > > > I issue the following rulebending form: > > -- > > The following document, dated 01-Nov-2020 01:38:25 UTC, is hereby > > ratified: "G's Ministry Focus is Legacy. This document does not > > purport > > to be a report or otherwise imply the value of any other Ministry > > Focus > > switches." > > -- > > CoE: the above excludes some non-default values (just to be safe). I'm not sure you can CoE a ratification attempt that isn't self- ratification. (Is this safety against the document somehow being interpreted as self-ratifying in addition to being ratified manually? I'd expect the ratification to do the same thing regardless of the mechanism that caused it to ratify.) -- ais523
DIS: Re: [@ministor] lordy look at the time
Sorry, head's *really* not in the game. fails of course misremembered the rule. On 10/31/2020 6:38 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > [It's been a hard week my heads not in the game - I hope you'll not mind > that it's prerogative of the dictator to be late, on very rare occasions.] > > I issue the following rulebending form: > - > The following emergency regulation "BOO! er, am I late?" is enacted: > > When this regulation is created, G.'s Ministry Focus is flipped > to Legacy. > > -- >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] It's not theft if it was offered for free
On 10/31/20 4:56 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: > On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 1:56 PM Falsifian via agora-business > wrote: >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 08:51:14PM -0400, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: >>> I submit (but do not pend) the following proposal: >>> >>> Title: I definitely authored this >>> Adoption index: 2.0 >>> Author: ATMunn >>> Co-author: Jason >>> >>> Amend Rule 2531 by replacing the first paragraph with the following: >>> { >>> Any attempt to levy a fine is INEFFECTIVE if it does not include value of >>> the fine in blots, the name of the person being fined (the perp), and the >>> specific reason for the fine. >>> } >>> >>> Amend Rule 2531 by renumbering the list so that the numbers start at 1 and >>> end at 10, with each number other than the fist one higher than the >>> previous. >> >> I'm confused. What do you consider to be the first paragraph of that rule? >> >> If item (1) was part of the first paragraph, then the amended rule will >> only have 9 list items. >> >> If item (1) was not part of the first paragraph, then it will still be >> there so that text will appear twice. > > Now might be a good time to remind everyone that this proposal also > does not have a title. > > -Aris > I see a title in the submission? -- Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] It's not theft if it was offered for free
> > Okay, that makes more sense, but I'm still skeptical. Can you say more > > about that precedent? Normally the only way I can tell for sure where > > one paragraph ends and the next starts is formatting (a blank line). > > The precedent was established in CFJ 3452 and reaffirmed in CFJs 3777-3778. > > > > > I'd be more comfortable if changes specified in proposals didn't rely on > > CFJ precedents unless they're really obvious and uncontroversial. (CFJ > > judgments can turn out to have been incorrect, right?) > > > Sure, they can turn out to be wrong, but I think in this case > specifically it's clear enough. > > -- > Jason Cobb Thanks for pointing me to the precedent. Having just read it (CFJ 3452 itself seems most relevant) --- how do we know R2531 isn't all one paragraph? Surely if list items can occur at the end of a paragraph, they can also occur in the middle of one? E.g: The following are fruit: (1) apples (2) oranges but rocks are not fruit. I think that would pretty clearly be one paragraph under the prose standard. In the case of CFJ 3452, G. decided the last sentence of Rule 1728/22 constituted its own paragraph, but did not explain why; maybe it's because that last sentence represents a new thought, independent of the topic of deciding whether a dependent action succeeded. -- Falsifian
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] It's not theft if it was offered for free
On 10/31/20 5:02 PM, Falsifian via agora-discussion wrote: > On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 04:57:31PM -0400, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion > wrote: >> On 10/31/20 4:55 PM, Falsifian via agora-business wrote: >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 08:51:14PM -0400, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: I submit (but do not pend) the following proposal: Title: I definitely authored this Adoption index: 2.0 Author: ATMunn Co-author: Jason Amend Rule 2531 by replacing the first paragraph with the following: { Any attempt to levy a fine is INEFFECTIVE if it does not include value of the fine in blots, the name of the person being fined (the perp), and the specific reason for the fine. } Amend Rule 2531 by renumbering the list so that the numbers start at 1 and end at 10, with each number other than the fist one higher than the previous. >>> I'm confused. What do you consider to be the first paragraph of that rule? >>> >>> If item (1) was part of the first paragraph, then the amended rule will >>> only have 9 list items. >>> >>> If item (1) was not part of the first paragraph, then it will still be >>> there so that text will appear twice. >>> >> The first paragraph contains the first list item. By precedent, >> paragraph structure is determined by prose, not formatting. Once that is >> removed, there will be 10 list items. Right now it looks like there are >> 9 because there are two number 5s due to a slightly broken proposal. >> >> -- >> Jason Cobb > Okay, that makes more sense, but I'm still skeptical. Can you say more > about that precedent? Normally the only way I can tell for sure where > one paragraph ends and the next starts is formatting (a blank line). The precedent was established in CFJ 3452 and reaffirmed in CFJs 3777-3778. > > I'd be more comfortable if changes specified in proposals didn't rely on > CFJ precedents unless they're really obvious and uncontroversial. (CFJ > judgments can turn out to have been incorrect, right?) > Sure, they can turn out to be wrong, but I think in this case specifically it's clear enough. -- Jason Cobb Assessor, Rulekeepor
Re: DIS: Gio list configuration, and @Murphy (was [Treasuror] [Weekly Report] Forbes 478)
> On Oct 31, 2020, at 8:30 PM, Falsifian via agora-discussion > wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 10:05:57PM -0400, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: >> On 10/27/2020 10:04 PM, Reuben Staley via agora-official wrote: >>> >>> I CoE the quoted report. Murphy published salaries on October 25. I >>> missed this event due to the message arriving in my spam inbox along >>> with every other message e sent to tue. >> >> ohhh so that's why I missed the reverse auction thing > > This could become a problem with our new forum, Gio, too. > > If I remember right, in the past, this has happened because a > combination of Murphy's email domain's DMARC configuration and DKIM > signatures cause any modification of eir emails' subject lines (adding > BAK: to the start) to look suspicious. omd has configured our main lists > to re-write the From: line to a different address to get around that. > > It looks like Gio has the same two behaviours: it rewrites the subject > line, and keeps the email as From: its original sender. > > Two requests: > * Could Murphy (or someone with a similar config) try sending a message > to Gio so we can see what happens? > * If it indeed lands in spam, is it possible to configure groups.io to > do what omd's lists do? > > — > Falsifian IIRC, Gio rewrites the From: header from some people, presumably those with DMARC issues. Gaelan
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] It's not theft if it was offered for free
On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 04:57:31PM -0400, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: > On 10/31/20 4:55 PM, Falsifian via agora-business wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 08:51:14PM -0400, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: > >> I submit (but do not pend) the following proposal: > >> > >> Title: I definitely authored this > >> Adoption index: 2.0 > >> Author: ATMunn > >> Co-author: Jason > >> > >> Amend Rule 2531 by replacing the first paragraph with the following: > >> { > >> Any attempt to levy a fine is INEFFECTIVE if it does not include value of > >> the fine in blots, the name of the person being fined (the perp), and the > >> specific reason for the fine. > >> } > >> > >> Amend Rule 2531 by renumbering the list so that the numbers start at 1 and > >> end at 10, with each number other than the fist one higher than the > >> previous. > > I'm confused. What do you consider to be the first paragraph of that rule? > > > > If item (1) was part of the first paragraph, then the amended rule will > > only have 9 list items. > > > > If item (1) was not part of the first paragraph, then it will still be > > there so that text will appear twice. > > > > The first paragraph contains the first list item. By precedent, > paragraph structure is determined by prose, not formatting. Once that is > removed, there will be 10 list items. Right now it looks like there are > 9 because there are two number 5s due to a slightly broken proposal. > > -- > Jason Cobb Okay, that makes more sense, but I'm still skeptical. Can you say more about that precedent? Normally the only way I can tell for sure where one paragraph ends and the next starts is formatting (a blank line). I'd be more comfortable if changes specified in proposals didn't rely on CFJ precedents unless they're really obvious and uncontroversial. (CFJ judgments can turn out to have been incorrect, right?) -- Falsifian
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] It's not theft if it was offered for free
On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 1:57 PM Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 1:56 PM Falsifian via agora-business > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 08:51:14PM -0400, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: > > > I submit (but do not pend) the following proposal: > > > > > > Title: I definitely authored this > > > Adoption index: 2.0 > > > Author: ATMunn > > > Co-author: Jason > > > > > > Amend Rule 2531 by replacing the first paragraph with the following: > > > { > > > Any attempt to levy a fine is INEFFECTIVE if it does not include value of > > > the fine in blots, the name of the person being fined (the perp), and the > > > specific reason for the fine. > > > } > > > > > > Amend Rule 2531 by renumbering the list so that the numbers start at 1 and > > > end at 10, with each number other than the fist one higher than the > > > previous. > > > > I'm confused. What do you consider to be the first paragraph of that rule? > > > > If item (1) was part of the first paragraph, then the amended rule will > > only have 9 list items. > > > > If item (1) was not part of the first paragraph, then it will still be > > there so that text will appear twice. > > Now might be a good time to remind everyone that this proposal also > does not have a title. > > -Aris Wrong proposal, please ignore! -Aris
DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] It's not theft if it was offered for free
On 10/31/20 4:55 PM, Falsifian via agora-business wrote: > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 08:51:14PM -0400, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: >> I submit (but do not pend) the following proposal: >> >> Title: I definitely authored this >> Adoption index: 2.0 >> Author: ATMunn >> Co-author: Jason >> >> Amend Rule 2531 by replacing the first paragraph with the following: >> { >> Any attempt to levy a fine is INEFFECTIVE if it does not include value of >> the fine in blots, the name of the person being fined (the perp), and the >> specific reason for the fine. >> } >> >> Amend Rule 2531 by renumbering the list so that the numbers start at 1 and >> end at 10, with each number other than the fist one higher than the >> previous. > I'm confused. What do you consider to be the first paragraph of that rule? > > If item (1) was part of the first paragraph, then the amended rule will > only have 9 list items. > > If item (1) was not part of the first paragraph, then it will still be > there so that text will appear twice. > The first paragraph contains the first list item. By precedent, paragraph structure is determined by prose, not formatting. Once that is removed, there will be 10 list items. Right now it looks like there are 9 because there are two number 5s due to a slightly broken proposal. -- Jason Cobb Assessor, Rulekeepor
DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] It's not theft if it was offered for free
On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 1:56 PM Falsifian via agora-business wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 08:51:14PM -0400, ATMunn via agora-business wrote: > > I submit (but do not pend) the following proposal: > > > > Title: I definitely authored this > > Adoption index: 2.0 > > Author: ATMunn > > Co-author: Jason > > > > Amend Rule 2531 by replacing the first paragraph with the following: > > { > > Any attempt to levy a fine is INEFFECTIVE if it does not include value of > > the fine in blots, the name of the person being fined (the perp), and the > > specific reason for the fine. > > } > > > > Amend Rule 2531 by renumbering the list so that the numbers start at 1 and > > end at 10, with each number other than the fist one higher than the > > previous. > > I'm confused. What do you consider to be the first paragraph of that rule? > > If item (1) was part of the first paragraph, then the amended rule will > only have 9 list items. > > If item (1) was not part of the first paragraph, then it will still be > there so that text will appear twice. Now might be a good time to remind everyone that this proposal also does not have a title. -Aris
Re: DIS: Incorrect link in Registrar report
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 08:48:17PM -0400, Sgeo via agora-discussion wrote: > The link to https://agoranomic.org/Registrar/Reports/ appears to be an > older link, and should be to https://agoranomic.org/Registrar/ Thanks; done for future reports. -- Falsifian
DIS: [Promotor] Draft
PROMOTOR'S REPORT AS OF RIGHT NOW I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating a referendum on it, and removing it from the proposal pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the quorum is 9, the voting method is AI-majority, and the valid options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is also a valid vote, as are conditional votes). ID Author(s) AITitle --- 8516#^ nix 2.0 adJustments 8517*^ Telnaior, Jason, Trigon 3.0 Phasing Out Zombies 8518*^ Aris, Falsifian, nix 3.0 Asset Rounding 8519#^ ATMunn, Jason 2.0 I definitely authored this 8520*^ P.S.S., Jason 3.0 (untitled) 8521#^ Jason, G., [1]2.0 Stones The proposal pool is currently empty. Legend: * : Democratic proposal. # : Ordinary proposal, unset chamber. c : Compliance ministry proposal (ordinary). e : Economy ministry proposal (ordinary). g : Legacy ministry proposal (ordinary). l : Legislation ministry proposal (ordinary). p : Participation ministry proposal (ordinary). ^ : Sponsored proposal. [1] Aris, nix, Trigon, Gaelan, Falsifian The full text of the aforementioned proposal(s) is included below. Where the information shown below differs from the information shown above, the information shown above shall control. // ID: 8516 Title: adJustments Adoption index: 2.0 Author: nix Co-authors: Amend "Office Interests" by replacing "Ministry Impact" with "Chamber". (Current text does nothing because 'Ministry Impact' means nothing.) Amend R2624, "Focus Grants", by replacing "50 coins" with "50 boatloads of coins". (To match with the upcoming boatloads economy.) // ID: 8517 Title: Phasing Out Zombies Adoption index: 3.0 Author: Telnaior Co-authors: Jason, Trigon Enact a new power 3.0 rule entitled "Zombie Phase-Out" with the the following text: While a zombie's talisman is owned by Agora, that zombie's resale value is continuously set to 0. // ID: 8518 Title: Asset Rounding Adoption index: 3.0 Author: Aris Co-authors: Falsifian, nix Amend Rule 2577, "Asset Actions", by replacing: When a rule indicates transferring an amount that is not a natural number, the specified amount is rounded up to the nearest natural number. with: When a rule indicates creating, destroying, or transferring an amount of assets that is not a natural number, the specified amount is rounded up to the nearest natural number after all other calculations. Amend the Rule titled "Floating Rate Fleet" by deleting the text "When a quantity of assets is expressed in boatloads, it is rounded up to the next whole asset." // ID: 8519 Title: I definitely authored this Adoption index: 1.0 Author: ATMunn Co-authors: Jason Amend Rule 2531 by replacing the first paragraph with the following: { Any attempt to levy a fine is INEFFECTIVE if it does not include value of the fine in blots, the name of the person being fined (the perp), and the specific reason for the fine. } Amend Rule 2531 by renumbering the list so that the numbers start at 1 and end at 10, with each number other than the fist one higher than the previous. // ID: 8520 Title: (untitled) Adoption index: 3.0 Author: Publius Scribonius Scholasticus Co-authors: Jason Amend the final item in Rule 2438, "Ribbons" to read as follows: { - Otherwise, if e has not been awarded that type of Ribbon or the corresponding type of Glitter since e last earned or came to qualify for that type of Ribbon, and has not been so awarded five or more times within the past 24 hours, any player CAN, by announcement, award em that type of Glitter. } // ID: 8521 Title: Stones Adoption index: 2.0 Author: Jason Co-authors: G., Aris, nix, Trigon, Gaelan, Falsifian Enact a new rule, power 2, title "Stones", with the following text: { A stone is a unique indestructable liquid asset defined by the rules. To define a stone, the definition must include: (i) A name unique among stones; (ii) The escape risk of the stone, which must be a percentage between 0% and 100% inclusive; (iii) A scroll, which is a document specifying the effects of the stone (iv) Optionally, a frequency, which must be one of daily, weekly, monthly, or quarterly. Ownership of stones is entirely restricted to Agora and active players. If a stone is owned by the Lost and Found Department or in abeyance, it is immediately transferred to Agora. The Stonem
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Farmers] Potato report
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 09:22:57PM +0100, Cuddle Beam via agora-business wrote: > A more correct hopefully more correct correcter Farming Report > > PSS: Publius Scribonius Scholasticus > > OwnerPotato > --- > Cuddlebeam 0 > > Gaelan 5 > > Aris0 > > Falsifan0 > > PSS 2 > > Trigon 0 > > ATMunn 1 > > Nix 1 > > > History of Potato (not self-ratifying): > > 10,000 BC: Potatoes were first planted in South America > > 1840: Blight decimate potato crops across Europe > > Oct 21 2020: Cuddlebeam +1 Potato > > Nov 32 2020: Gaelan + 10 Potato > > Last week: Aris, PSS + 1 Potato > > Also last week: Falsifan spawns Spudders > > Oct 26 2020: CB + 1 Potato > > Sept 21 2020: Do you remember, the 21st night of Septembah? > > Today: Things happened > > 28 Oct 2020: Trigon trades Russet Didn't we decide all the Splat Market trades didn't work because Potatoes aren't a currency? (Not CoE-ing yet to give our Farmest a break.) -- Falsifian
DIS: Gio list configuration, and @Murphy (was [Treasuror] [Weekly Report] Forbes 478)
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 10:05:57PM -0400, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: > On 10/27/2020 10:04 PM, Reuben Staley via agora-official wrote: > > > > I CoE the quoted report. Murphy published salaries on October 25. I > > missed this event due to the message arriving in my spam inbox along > > with every other message e sent to tue. > > ohhh so that's why I missed the reverse auction thing This could become a problem with our new forum, Gio, too. If I remember right, in the past, this has happened because a combination of Murphy's email domain's DMARC configuration and DKIM signatures cause any modification of eir emails' subject lines (adding BAK: to the start) to look suspicious. omd has configured our main lists to re-write the From: line to a different address to get around that. It looks like Gio has the same two behaviours: it rewrites the subject line, and keeps the email as From: its original sender. Two requests: * Could Murphy (or someone with a similar config) try sending a message to Gio so we can see what happens? * If it indeed lands in spam, is it possible to configure groups.io to do what omd's lists do? -- Falsifian
DIS: Re: OFF: [Webmastor] Agora Online (October 2020)
On 10/31/20 2:46 PM, nix via agora-official wrote: > Please alert the Webmastor of any missing links. I realized immediately upon sending this that I forgot to add the AgoraQuest link to the "Other Archives" section. The link is here (https://agoranomic.org/AgoraQuest/) and it will be included in next month's. -- nix Webmastor, Ministor
DIS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Metareport
On 10/31/20 11:45 AM, Edward Murphy via agora-official wrote: Office Report Last Published Late Coopor Barrels, Bargains 2020-10-01 Herald Patent titles 2020-09-30 Ministor Interests, Foci (never) Registrar Player history 2020-10-18 Rulekeepor Full Logical Ruleset 2020-10-25 Tailor Ribbons 2020-10-01 Webmastor Web resources 2020-09-30 Treasuror gained a monthly report with the boatload economy. It includes the Unit of Flotation as well as some other related statistics. -- Trigon ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST I’m always happy to become a party to contracts. I LOVE SPAGHETTI transfer Jason one coin nch was here I hereby don't... trust... the dragon... don't... trust... the dragon... Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: @Treasuror Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposals 8507-8515
On 10/31/20 8:58 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: For everyone's reference: Glitter must be processed by the Tailor before the Treasuror. I notice that the Herald is not notified in the subject. Perhaps flagging the message as [Glitter] would be the most helpful. -- Trigon ¸¸.•*¨*• Play AGORA QUEST I’m always happy to become a party to contracts. I LOVE SPAGHETTI transfer Jason one coin nch was here I hereby don't... trust... the dragon... don't... trust... the dragon... Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this
DIS: Re: BAK: [Proto] Glitter for Friends
PSS wrote: AI: 3.0 Co-author: Jason Text: { Amend the final item in Rule 2438, "Ribbons" to read as follows: { - Otherwise, if e has not been awarded that type of Ribbon or the corresponding type of Glitter since e last earned or came to qualify for that type of Ribbon, and has not been so awarded five or more times within the past 24 hours, any player CAN, by announcement, award em that type of Glitter. } } This would make the "five or more times" cap ambiguous. Say there's a Black Glitter scam, omd qualifies for it and I award it to em five times on the same day; if e qualifies for it a sixth time, then I definitely can't ward it to em that same day, but can another player?
DIS: Re: BUS: @Treasuror Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposals 8507-8515
On 10/31/20 10:31 AM, nix via agora-business wrote: > > On 10/28/20 2:28 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote: >> PROPOSAL 8515 (adMinistration v1.1) >> AUTHOR: nix >> CLASS: ORDINARY >> CHAMBER: ECONOMY >> SPONSORED: YES >> FOR (11): ATMunn&, Aris, Baron von Vanderham, Falsifian, Gaelan@, Jason, >> Telnaior, Trigon&, nix, sukil, twg >> AGAINST (0): >> PRESENT (3): D. Margaux, G.^, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus >> BALLOTS: 14 >> AI (F/A): 40/0 (AI=2.0) >> POPULARITY: 0.786 >> OUTCOME: ADOPTED > This proposal having no against votes, I award myself orange glitter. > For everyone's reference: Glitter must be processed by the Tailor before the Treasuror. -- Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth