Re: DIS: Proto: Banking and Bonds (v2)

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Given my removal of the First Bank of Agora rule, I am adding the following 
text to the Central Bank rule. However, I think it will be controversial, so I 
am posting it here for specific comment before my next draft:
  The Banker of the Central Bank CAN transfer shinies from the Central
  Bank to Agora, if the balance of the Central Bank after the transaction would 
not
  be less than 50 shinies. The Banker of the Central Bank CAN transfer shinies
  from Agora to the Central Bank, if the balance of Agora after the transaction
  would not be less than 50 shinies. It is ILLEGAL for the Banker of the Central
  Bank of Agora to transfer shinies between Agora and the Central Bank of Agora,
  if the balances of Agora or the Central Bank after the transaction would be
  less than 50 shinies. The Banker SHALL transfer shinies from the Central Bank
  to Agora, if Agora has less than 25 shinies, unless doing so would be ILLEGAL.
  The Banker SHALL transfer shinies from the Agora to the Central Bank, if Agora
  has more than 150 shinies and e has not done so in the past week, unless doing
  so would be ILLEGAL.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 23, 2017, at 6:19 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the feedback. I am going to respond line by line below.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 22, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>> 
>> I normally try to avoid this, because it’s an invitation to line-by-line 
>> wrangling, but I have some fairly specific feedback on wording. Before I get 
>> into it, some comments on the overall structure:
>> 
>> It’s good. In particular, I appreciate the possibility of multiple banks, 
>> though I suspect we’ll average 1.8 banks at most: any transient banks, or if 
>> we’re particularly lucky, any long-term banks other than the CBA, will 
>> likely act as proving grounds for bank policy more than anything else.
>> 
>>> On Sep 21, 2017, at 12:57 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> In response to feedback, here is the new banking proposal, if I don't get 
>>> negative feedback, I plan to pend it this week:
>>> {
>>> All "+" and "-" symbols in the body of this proposal should be ignored and 
>>> shall have no effect on the ruleset or game state.
>>> 
>>> Replace the following line in "Assets":
>>> -  restricted to Agora, persons, and organizations.
>>> with:
>>> +  restricted to Agora, persons, organizations, and Agoran Institutions.
>> 
>> The rule defining Agoran Institutions seems to have gotten lost in the 
>> refactoring.
> 
> I will than specify banks specifically to resolve this problem.
> 
>> 
>>> Create a power-2 rule titled "Banking" with the following text:
>>> +  A Bank is an Agoran Institution. A Bank shall have a charter, a length, 
>>> and a
>>> +  banker.
>> 
>> “It is ILLEGAL for a bank not to have a charter, or not to have a length, or 
>> not to have a banker”? Who receives the card?
> 
> I was trying to figure this out. What about "Any action causing a bank to not 
> have a charter, a length, and a banker is INEFFECTIVE."?
> 
>> 
>>> The Central Bank of Agora is the bank who is responsible for the
>>> +  conduct of business and issuance of bonds on behalf of Agora. The length 
>>> of a
>>> +  bank is the period during which the bank will operate. If at any time,
>>> +  a Central Bank of Agora is not declared, then the Secretary CAN and SHALL
>>> +  declare a bank to be the Central Bank of Agora.
>> 
>> This rule appears to define the existence of the CBA, before contemplating 
>> what should happen if the CBA does not exist. I suspect you meant to define 
>> this in terms of a regulation-like construct governed by the Secretary, 
>> though frankly I have no idea how to write such a beast either.
> 
> The main reason I added this clause is to allow the prime minister's 
> associated executive action to work. Also, given ais523's suggestion to form 
> the FBA by proposal, I will have to add some clauses to make things work.
> 
>> 
>>> +  A Bank is able to issue a currency and issue bonds. The charter of a
>>> +  bank shall establish the method by which a bond or currency can be 
>>> issued.
>> 
>> Given that “a currency” is already defined, this bolts onto the assets 
>> framework quite well.
>> 
>> To make sure I follow: each bank has the option of issuing its own currency, 
>> in arbitrary amounts as defined by the charter of that bank? This is 
>> consistent with historical banking practice, but I worry that N currencies 
>> might be a bit much. I’d like to find out, so if that was your intent, 
>> please continue, but I wanted to make sure I understood.
> 
> That is my intent.
> 
>> 
>>> +  Any person CAN create a Bank without objection by specifying its 
>>> charter, its
>>> +  length and 

Re: DIS: Proto: Banking and Bonds (v2)

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Thanks for the feedback. I am going to respond line by line below.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 22, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
> I normally try to avoid this, because it’s an invitation to line-by-line 
> wrangling, but I have some fairly specific feedback on wording. Before I get 
> into it, some comments on the overall structure:
> 
> It’s good. In particular, I appreciate the possibility of multiple banks, 
> though I suspect we’ll average 1.8 banks at most: any transient banks, or if 
> we’re particularly lucky, any long-term banks other than the CBA, will likely 
> act as proving grounds for bank policy more than anything else.
> 
>> On Sep 21, 2017, at 12:57 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> In response to feedback, here is the new banking proposal, if I don't get 
>> negative feedback, I plan to pend it this week:
>> {
>> All "+" and "-" symbols in the body of this proposal should be ignored and 
>> shall have no effect on the ruleset or game state.
>> 
>> Replace the following line in "Assets":
>> -  restricted to Agora, persons, and organizations.
>> with:
>> +  restricted to Agora, persons, organizations, and Agoran Institutions.
> 
> The rule defining Agoran Institutions seems to have gotten lost in the 
> refactoring.

I will than specify banks specifically to resolve this problem.

> 
>> Create a power-2 rule titled "Banking" with the following text:
>> +  A Bank is an Agoran Institution. A Bank shall have a charter, a length, 
>> and a
>> +  banker.
> 
> “It is ILLEGAL for a bank not to have a charter, or not to have a length, or 
> not to have a banker”? Who receives the card?

I was trying to figure this out. What about "Any action causing a bank to not 
have a charter, a length, and a banker is INEFFECTIVE."?

> 
>> The Central Bank of Agora is the bank who is responsible for the
>> +  conduct of business and issuance of bonds on behalf of Agora. The length 
>> of a
>> +  bank is the period during which the bank will operate. If at any time,
>> +  a Central Bank of Agora is not declared, then the Secretary CAN and SHALL
>> +  declare a bank to be the Central Bank of Agora.
> 
> This rule appears to define the existence of the CBA, before contemplating 
> what should happen if the CBA does not exist. I suspect you meant to define 
> this in terms of a regulation-like construct governed by the Secretary, 
> though frankly I have no idea how to write such a beast either.

The main reason I added this clause is to allow the prime minister's associated 
executive action to work. Also, given ais523's suggestion to form the FBA by 
proposal, I will have to add some clauses to make things work.

> 
>> +  A Bank is able to issue a currency and issue bonds. The charter of a
>> +  bank shall establish the method by which a bond or currency can be issued.
> 
> Given that “a currency” is already defined, this bolts onto the assets 
> framework quite well.
> 
> To make sure I follow: each bank has the option of issuing its own currency, 
> in arbitrary amounts as defined by the charter of that bank? This is 
> consistent with historical banking practice, but I worry that N currencies 
> might be a bit much. I’d like to find out, so if that was your intent, please 
> continue, but I wanted to make sure I understood.

That is my intent.

> 
>> +  Any person CAN create a Bank without objection by specifying its charter, 
>> its
>> +  length and recommending a banker. The Secretary CAN create a bank with 
>> Agoran
>> +  Consent by specifying its charter, its length and appointing a banker.
> 
> What is the difference between “recommending” and “appointing?”
> 
> What is the difference between the First Bank of PSS and a bank created by 
> the Secretary, generally, that justifies the difference in consent 
> requirements?

The main thing was that I wanted any player to be able to create a Bank, if 
they wanted one and then have the Secretary as a fallback for if their are two 
many objections. As to the recommending vs appointing, I already authorize the 
Secretary to appoint bankers, elsewhere so the idea was that the person 
starting the bank would recommend someone who the Secretary would customarily 
appoint.

> 
>> The
>> +  charter of a bank SHALL state its purpose, and its governance structure. 
>> If at
>> +  any time, a Bank lacks a Banker, the Secretary CAN and SHALL appoint a 
>> Banker
>> +  in accordanence with the charter of the Bank or SHALL destroy the bank.
> 
> "Or CAN and SHALL…", I think. I appreciate the escape hatch, as - I’m sure - 
> do future Secretaries.
> 
> Does destroying a Bank destroy instances of its currency? Or do they float as 
> loose assets indefinitely?
> 
> Come to think of it, who recordkeeps a bank-created currency? There’s no 
> fallback recordkeepor, and so, nobody who can ratify or who is obliged to 
> report on 

Re: DIS: Proto: Banking and Bonds (v2)

[Owen Jacobson]

I normally try to avoid this, because it’s an invitation to line-by-line 
wrangling, but I have some fairly specific feedback on wording. Before I get 
into it, some comments on the overall structure:

It’s good. In particular, I appreciate the possibility of multiple banks, 
though I suspect we’ll average 1.8 banks at most: any transient banks, or if 
we’re particularly lucky, any long-term banks other than the CBA, will likely 
act as proving grounds for bank policy more than anything else.

> On Sep 21, 2017, at 12:57 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> 
> In response to feedback, here is the new banking proposal, if I don't get 
> negative feedback, I plan to pend it this week:
> {
> All "+" and "-" symbols in the body of this proposal should be ignored and 
> shall have no effect on the ruleset or game state.
> 
> Replace the following line in "Assets":
> -  restricted to Agora, persons, and organizations.
> with:
> +  restricted to Agora, persons, organizations, and Agoran Institutions.

The rule defining Agoran Institutions seems to have gotten lost in the 
refactoring.

> Create a power-2 rule titled "Banking" with the following text:
> +  A Bank is an Agoran Institution. A Bank shall have a charter, a length, 
> and a
> +  banker.

“It is ILLEGAL for a bank not to have a charter, or not to have a length, or 
not to have a banker”? Who receives the card?

> The Central Bank of Agora is the bank who is responsible for the
> +  conduct of business and issuance of bonds on behalf of Agora. The length 
> of a
> +  bank is the period during which the bank will operate. If at any time,
> +  a Central Bank of Agora is not declared, then the Secretary CAN and SHALL
> +  declare a bank to be the Central Bank of Agora.

This rule appears to define the existence of the CBA, before contemplating what 
should happen if the CBA does not exist. I suspect you meant to define this in 
terms of a regulation-like construct governed by the Secretary, though frankly 
I have no idea how to write such a beast either.

> +  A Bank is able to issue a currency and issue bonds. The charter of a
> +  bank shall establish the method by which a bond or currency can be issued.

Given that “a currency” is already defined, this bolts onto the assets 
framework quite well.

To make sure I follow: each bank has the option of issuing its own currency, in 
arbitrary amounts as defined by the charter of that bank? This is consistent 
with historical banking practice, but I worry that N currencies might be a bit 
much. I’d like to find out, so if that was your intent, please continue, but I 
wanted to make sure I understood.

> +  Any person CAN create a Bank without objection by specifying its charter, 
> its
> +  length and recommending a banker. The Secretary CAN create a bank with 
> Agoran
> +  Consent by specifying its charter, its length and appointing a banker.

What is the difference between “recommending” and “appointing?”

What is the difference between the First Bank of PSS and a bank created by the 
Secretary, generally, that justifies the difference in consent requirements?

> The
> +  charter of a bank SHALL state its purpose, and its governance structure. 
> If at
> +  any time, a Bank lacks a Banker, the Secretary CAN and SHALL appoint a 
> Banker
> +  in accordanence with the charter of the Bank or SHALL destroy the bank.

"Or CAN and SHALL…", I think. I appreciate the escape hatch, as - I’m sure - do 
future Secretaries.

Does destroying a Bank destroy instances of its currency? Or do they float as 
loose assets indefinitely?

Come to think of it, who recordkeeps a bank-created currency? There’s no 
fallback recordkeepor, and so, nobody who can ratify or who is obliged to 
report on instances of bank-created currencies. If the intent is to allow for 
bank-specific currencies, the bank’s Banker may need to be designated as 
recordkeepor for each currency.

> If any
> +  bank has existed for longer than allowed by its charter or its length, then
> +  the Banker and the Secretary CAN destroy it and the Banker SHALL do so in a
> +  timely manner. The Secretary CAN destroy a bank without object or with 
> Agoran
> +  Consent.

“Without objection,” though I suspect that specific construction has problems. 
If you meant that the Secretary should need at least one supporting message, 
then “with Agoran Consent” is sufficient; if you meant that the Secretary must 
not receive any objecting messages, then “Without Objection” is sufficient; if 
you meant both, then you’ll need to invent something clearer.

> Create a new power-2 rule titled "Bonds", with the following text:
> +  Bonds are a type of asset. Bonds CAN be converted according to their 
> issuance
> +  document.

With the term “converted” open-ended like this, and with conversion permitted 
by a P=2.0 rule, I worry that this might allow bonds to directly create 
currencies, including Shinies.

> Rules to the 

Re: DIS: Proto: Banking and Bonds (v2)

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

When I submit this proposal, they will be removed.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 21, 2017, at 2:50 PM, Aris Merchant 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have trouble with the plusses and minuses. It means that I'm not
> allowed to wrap lines in my promotor report, something I usually do on
> a fairly regular basis.
> 
> -Aris
> 
> On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  wrote:
>> In response to feedback, here is the new banking proposal, if I don't get 
>> negative feedback, I plan to pend it this week:
>> {
>> All "+" and "-" symbols in the body of this proposal should be ignored and 
>> shall have no effect on the ruleset or game state.
>> 
>> Replace the following line in "Assets":
>> -  restricted to Agora, persons, and organizations.
>> with:
>> +  restricted to Agora, persons, organizations, and Agoran Institutions.
>> 
>> Create a power-2 rule titled "Banking" with the following text:
>> +  A Bank is an Agoran Institution. A Bank shall have a charter, a length, 
>> and a
>> +  banker. The Central Bank of Agora is the bank who is responsible for the
>> +  conduct of business and issuance of bonds on behalf of Agora. The length 
>> of a
>> +  bank is the period during which the bank will operate. If at any time,
>> +  a Central Bank of Agora is not declared, then the Secretary CAN and SHALL
>> +  declare a bank to be the Central Bank of Agora.
>> +
>> +  A Bank is able to issue a currency and issue bonds. The charter of a
>> +  bank shall establish the method by which a bond or currency can be issued.
>> +
>> +  Any person CAN create a Bank without objection by specifying its charter, 
>> its
>> +  length and recommending a banker. The Secretary CAN create a bank with 
>> Agoran
>> +  Consent by specifying its charter, its length and appointing a banker. The
>> +  charter of a bank SHALL state its purpose, and its governance structure. 
>> If at
>> +  any time, a Bank lacks a Banker, the Secretary CAN and SHALL appoint a 
>> Banker
>> +  in accordanence with the charter of the Bank or SHALL destroy the bank. 
>> If any
>> +  bank has existed for longer than allowed by its charter or its length, 
>> then
>> +  the Banker and the Secretary CAN destroy it and the Banker SHALL do so in 
>> a
>> +  timely manner. The Secretary CAN destroy a bank without object or with 
>> Agoran
>> +  Consent.
>> 
>> Create a new power-2 rule titled "Bonds", with the following text:
>> +  Bonds are a type of asset. Bonds CAN be converted according to their 
>> issuance
>> +  document. Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, bonds may only be issued 
>> by
>> +  a bank. The Banker of the issuing bank is the recordkeeper for Bonds. All
>> +  bonds SHALL have a term specified in their issuance document. Any person,
>> +  organization, or Agoran Institution who owns a bond CAN and MAY, 
>> according to
>> +  the bond's issuing document, convert the bond by destroying the bond and 
>> being
>> +  payed by the issuing bank an amount determined by its issuance document.
>> 
>> Rename "Economics" as "Shinies".
>> 
>> 
>> Add to the end of the list of executive orders in "Executive Orders", the 
>> following item:
>> +  - Kickbacks (Secretary): The Prime Minister issues a bond from
>> +the Central Bank of a class or series previously issued for
>> +an amount less than or equal to 50 shinies and specifies a
>> +class of purchasers.
>> 
>> Create a new power-1 rule titled "The First Bank of Agora" with the 
>> following text:
>> 
>> +  The First Bank of Agora is a Bank. The banker of The First Bank of Agora
>> +  is the Secretary. This rule is the charter of The First Bank of
>> +  Agora. The First Bank of Agora has a term of nine months, which is
>> +  automatically renewed for succeeding intervals of nine months, as long as 
>> The
>> +  Second Bank of Agora has not been formed.
>> +
>> +  The First Bank of Agora has administration over the balance of Agora
>> +  in excess of 50 shinies. The First Bank of Agora is led by the Board
>> +  of Overseers. There are two overseers, who are elected according to the
>> +  later procedure. The Banker of The First Bank of Agora also serves
>> +  on the board ex officio. The Board of Overseers has authorization to
>> +  when Agora has a balance of less than 50 shinies issue bonds, with a total
>> +  value of up to 100 shinies. The terms of these bonds are determined by
>> +  the Board of Overseers. The Board of Overseers SHALL NOT issue any bond 
>> with a
>> +  with terms precluding their sale on the open market or with any provision
>> +  allowing the conversion of the bond to currency before the passage of two
>> +  weeks after sale. The Board of Overseers is also allowed to offer
>> +  consumer banking services, such as money holdings, check clearance, the
>> +  keeping of a ledger for fractional shiny banking, escrow, and any other
>> + 

Re: DIS: Proto: Banking and Bonds (v2)

[Aris Merchant]

I have trouble with the plusses and minuses. It means that I'm not
allowed to wrap lines in my promotor report, something I usually do on
a fairly regular basis.

-Aris

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 wrote:
> In response to feedback, here is the new banking proposal, if I don't get 
> negative feedback, I plan to pend it this week:
> {
> All "+" and "-" symbols in the body of this proposal should be ignored and 
> shall have no effect on the ruleset or game state.
>
> Replace the following line in "Assets":
> -  restricted to Agora, persons, and organizations.
> with:
> +  restricted to Agora, persons, organizations, and Agoran Institutions.
>
> Create a power-2 rule titled "Banking" with the following text:
> +  A Bank is an Agoran Institution. A Bank shall have a charter, a length, 
> and a
> +  banker. The Central Bank of Agora is the bank who is responsible for the
> +  conduct of business and issuance of bonds on behalf of Agora. The length 
> of a
> +  bank is the period during which the bank will operate. If at any time,
> +  a Central Bank of Agora is not declared, then the Secretary CAN and SHALL
> +  declare a bank to be the Central Bank of Agora.
> +
> +  A Bank is able to issue a currency and issue bonds. The charter of a
> +  bank shall establish the method by which a bond or currency can be issued.
> +
> +  Any person CAN create a Bank without objection by specifying its charter, 
> its
> +  length and recommending a banker. The Secretary CAN create a bank with 
> Agoran
> +  Consent by specifying its charter, its length and appointing a banker. The
> +  charter of a bank SHALL state its purpose, and its governance structure. 
> If at
> +  any time, a Bank lacks a Banker, the Secretary CAN and SHALL appoint a 
> Banker
> +  in accordanence with the charter of the Bank or SHALL destroy the bank. If 
> any
> +  bank has existed for longer than allowed by its charter or its length, then
> +  the Banker and the Secretary CAN destroy it and the Banker SHALL do so in a
> +  timely manner. The Secretary CAN destroy a bank without object or with 
> Agoran
> +  Consent.
>
> Create a new power-2 rule titled "Bonds", with the following text:
> +  Bonds are a type of asset. Bonds CAN be converted according to their 
> issuance
> +  document. Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, bonds may only be issued 
> by
> +  a bank. The Banker of the issuing bank is the recordkeeper for Bonds. All
> +  bonds SHALL have a term specified in their issuance document. Any person,
> +  organization, or Agoran Institution who owns a bond CAN and MAY, according 
> to
> +  the bond's issuing document, convert the bond by destroying the bond and 
> being
> +  payed by the issuing bank an amount determined by its issuance document.
>
> Rename "Economics" as "Shinies".
>
>
> Add to the end of the list of executive orders in "Executive Orders", the 
> following item:
> +  - Kickbacks (Secretary): The Prime Minister issues a bond from
> +the Central Bank of a class or series previously issued for
> +an amount less than or equal to 50 shinies and specifies a
> +class of purchasers.
>
> Create a new power-1 rule titled "The First Bank of Agora" with the following 
> text:
>
> +  The First Bank of Agora is a Bank. The banker of The First Bank of Agora
> +  is the Secretary. This rule is the charter of The First Bank of
> +  Agora. The First Bank of Agora has a term of nine months, which is
> +  automatically renewed for succeeding intervals of nine months, as long as 
> The
> +  Second Bank of Agora has not been formed.
> +
> +  The First Bank of Agora has administration over the balance of Agora
> +  in excess of 50 shinies. The First Bank of Agora is led by the Board
> +  of Overseers. There are two overseers, who are elected according to the
> +  later procedure. The Banker of The First Bank of Agora also serves
> +  on the board ex officio. The Board of Overseers has authorization to
> +  when Agora has a balance of less than 50 shinies issue bonds, with a total
> +  value of up to 100 shinies. The terms of these bonds are determined by
> +  the Board of Overseers. The Board of Overseers SHALL NOT issue any bond 
> with a
> +  with terms precluding their sale on the open market or with any provision
> +  allowing the conversion of the bond to currency before the passage of two
> +  weeks after sale. The Board of Overseers is also allowed to offer
> +  consumer banking services, such as money holdings, check clearance, the
> +  keeping of a ledger for fractional shiny banking, escrow, and any other
> +  banking service not costing The First Bank of Agora more than 25 shinies in
> +  capital to initiate or operate. The Board of Overseers are, when Agora has
> +  in excess of 250 shinies, allowed to issue loans with a total value not in
> +  excess of 100 shinies. The Board of Overseers MAY sell or purchase loans or
> +  bonds from other