Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Diplonomic 2020] Resolution of Proposal

2020-08-02 Thread Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion


On 8/2/2020 12:50 PM, omd via agora-discussion wrote:
> at 10:42 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-business  
>  wrote:
> 
>> {
>> Enact a Rule with the following text:
>>England is eliminated as a contestant.  Austria, Italy, and Russia
>>hereby win the game.
>> }
> 
> When I first saw this I thought England itself had proposed it as a sort of  
> troll.  But no, it wasn’t a troll by England or anyone else.  How long have  
> you had it planned?

Not too long - Starting talking about it just before the turn that Germany
and Turkey were eliminated, right after Superpowers was enacted which is
what got us thinking about "what if they all just vote against us next
turn". (btw who proposed that one?  was great.)

> I must say, as a recently minted spectator, I’m disappointed by the  
> anticlimax.  To be fair, I too had the idea of taking advantage of  
> Diplonomic’s unique nature to achieve a dramatic last-minute tie, like a  
> certain YA novel.  (Though apparently normal games of Diplomacy also often  
> end in ties.  I don’t have any experience with them.)  Still, I wasn’t  
> envisioning a three-way tie. 

Yah, from https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Diplomacy/Rules:
> Quite often the game ends in a two-way, three-way, or even four-way
> draw.

> As a former contestant, it’s a good lesson for me.  I’m not great at this  
> stuff, but I thought I was in a decent position with just one extra-strong  
> alliance.  I didn’t even imagine there would be an extra-strong three-way  
> alliance.

FWIW, from my view it was an extra-strong two-way alliance (Aus/Ita) who
said "hey Germany's back is open if Russia will go with us".  At that
point we were debating "do we side with Russia or Turkey around the Black
Sea" and the deciding factor was the open German territories.  I
personally thought Russian alliance was very situational until we started
talking about the endgame voting.

> By the way, the proposal to let teammates submit orders was written by me.   
> It pained me to propose such a non-general rule only allowing teammates to  
> perform one type of action, rather than anything the country could do.  But  
> I didn’t want to call attention to the fact that a certain type of action –  
> voting on proposals – was not limited to countries in the first place!
> The point of the proposal, however, was to enable a completely different
> scam.

Ha!  I just assumed Aris was going to be away for a few days and proposed
that.  Definitely didn't see anything suspicious in it.  Nice.

-G.




DIS: Re: BUS: [Diplonomic 2020] Resolution of Proposal

2020-08-02 Thread omd via agora-discussion
at 10:42 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-business  
 wrote:



{
Enact a Rule with the following text:
   England is eliminated as a contestant.  Austria, Italy, and Russia
   hereby win the game.
}


When I first saw this I thought England itself had proposed it as a sort of  
troll.  But no, it wasn’t a troll by England or anyone else.  How long have  
you had it planned?


I must say, as a recently minted spectator, I’m disappointed by the  
anticlimax.  To be fair, I too had the idea of taking advantage of  
Diplonomic’s unique nature to achieve a dramatic last-minute tie, like a  
certain YA novel.  (Though apparently normal games of Diplomacy also often  
end in ties.  I don’t have any experience with them.)  Still, I wasn’t  
envisioning a three-way tie.  A two-way fight is a grind of game mechanics  
devoid of Diplomacy’s characteristic negotiations; a three-way fight can be  
a drama of which two will team up against the other.  On the other hand,  
who am I kidding; my imagined ending would have disappointed spectators too.


As a former contestant, it’s a good lesson for me.  I’m not great at this  
stuff, but I thought I was in a decent position with just one extra-strong  
alliance.  I didn’t even imagine there would be an extra-strong three-way  
alliance.


I wonder if I’m the only one to have noticed a rather powerful scam.   
According to the Diplonomic rules, the entities eligible to vote on  
Diplonomic proposals are not Contestants, but “players”.  The threshold to  
pass is still "greater than half the number of Contestants", so this  
doesn’t mean any proposals unexpectedly failed.  Rather, a sufficiently  
large group of players could force a proposal through (but not forcibly  
block a proposal) regardless of the votes of others.  You do still need to  
be a Contestant to submit a proposal in the first place.


There was a time window where I could have pulled this off with Aris and  
Trigon (at least if they agreed to it), but I didn’t try.  The reason is  
that the scam was too powerful for its own good.  Using it to win would  
destroy the Diplomacy gameplay, but using it for any lesser advantage would  
feel arbitrary.  If I’d known the game was about to end by proposal anyway…  
oh well.


By the way, the proposal to let teammates submit orders was written by me.   
It pained me to propose such a non-general rule only allowing teammates to  
perform one type of action, rather than anything the country could do.  But  
I didn’t want to call attention to the fact that a certain type of action –  
voting on proposals – was not limited to countries in the first place!


The point of the proposal, however, was to enable a completely different  
scam.  You see, both contestants and teammates are prohibited from  
“engag[ing] in any behaviors outside of the tournament intended to  
influence its course”, by two different clauses: one in the Diplonomic  
Rules for teammates, and one in the Birthday Tournament Regulations  
themselves for contestants.  Now, a contestant is permanently a contestant  
until they’re eliminated.  But a teammate can cease to be a teammate,  
engage in behavior outside of the tournament intended to influence its  
course, then become a teammate again.  What kind of behavior?  Well, the  
teammate could create an Agoran contract requiring eir country to do  
something.  The problem is that originally, the contract couldn’t have  
teeth.  It could say the teammate SHALL ensure the country takes Diplonomic  
actions as specified, and even punish em in some way (e.g. losing assets)  
if the country didn’t, but the actions are ultimately up to the Contestant,  
not the teammate.  Even if the Contestant was sympathetic, for em to pay  
attention to the contract would itself arguably count as a “behavior  
outside of the tournament”.  Plus, the teammate would be similarly bound  
after becoming a teammate again.


But with teammates having the ability to submit orders themselves, a  
temporarily-non-teammate could create a contract allowing someone else to  
submit orders on eir behalf.  After e rejoined as a teammate, e would at  
least arguably not be actively engaging in any “behavior outside of the  
tournament”.  E would still be submitting orders (via someone else acting  
on eir behalf to do it) while a teammate, but submitting orders is not  
*itself* an action “outside of the tournament”.  Only the formation of the  
contract would be.


All of this would just be an overly convoluted way to make agreements with  
other powers that were enforceable.  In reality, neither I nor the game  
lasted long enough to conduct any such scam, and it seems that regular old  
unenforceable agreements were good enough. :)